Have You Personally Used an Honest Head Hunter? 478
Haacked asks: "As a software manager, I've tried using recruiters and head hunters to find qualified employees. My experience is that used car salesman feel like paragons of integrity, in comparison. It seems their interests never lie with the job applicant, nor the company. However, I once read that some recruiters do act with integrity and actually care about the people they are trying to place. The book suggested finding a head hunter who is interested in a long term relationship with you (not for the commitment-phobic) and will serve more as a career counselor, attempting to find a position that meets your goals. Seems to me that establishing a long-term relationship with fewer as opposed to screwing people over in volume would make good business sense to garner repeat business. Have any of you ever worked with any firms you felt represented your interests well?"
Payment plan problems (Score:3, Insightful)
Ideally, long term employee satisfaction & retention should factor into the payroll equation.
Question of intent (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, they exist (Score:3, Insightful)
There are different animals in play... (Score:2, Insightful)
They are out there... (Score:4, Insightful)
What's more, he didn't hold a grudge. Six months ago when I was looking for a change of scenary, I applied for a job online. It turned out Vince was the headhunter, now working for a different company himself. He not only remembered me by name, but recommended me highly to the client (which turned out to be the same company he works for), and I ended up getting the job.
A month ago, a friend of mine was looking to get out of a sinking ship himself. I gave him Vince's number, and in three weeks Vince not only found him a job, but found him something that fit him well. In this economy? I was floored.
So yes, they are out there. You just have to look around a little.
Mixed experience (Score:3, Insightful)
Some warning signs of a bad one:
1) The headhunter says things like "This is the best developer I have ever talked to." or "You'll want to hire this guy immediately" or "I have ten people perfect for the job you're offering"
2) The resumes that the headhunter gives you are fully of typos and gramatical errors. Not only doesn't the applicant care enough to fill it out, but the headhunter didn't care enough to review it.
3) Headhunter says "Even though he doesn't have the experience you said you wanted, I know you'll love him".
Good signs when talking to a headhunter.
1) FIXED RATES!!!! Most headhunters get a percentage of the salary of the person coming in. There incentive is to get you to hire the most expensive guy, whether he is qualified or not. Fixed rate headhunters just want to keep you happy so that you come back.
2) They do full pre-screening interviews with technical questions before forwarding any resumes.
3) When you reject a candidate, they try to find out why so that they don't make the same mistake twice.
Overall, I think that the right headhunter can be a great help with recruiting, but always understand that there interest is in placing candidates with you and not necessarily that the candidate fits.
Re:You don't want to use one, even if they're hone (Score:4, Insightful)
For that, they don't mind paying a fee. It does save time and money for the company. Unfortunately, they can get screwed on that deal by a flesh-pimp-headhunter. That will only happen once, though, and most companies (at least this one) won't deal with that agency again.
Re:You don't want to use one, even if they're hone (Score:3, Insightful)
And you really think you'd have better results hiring a CFO or Director of R&D from a headhunter? Surely, you've worked with some competent people in the past that are looking for an opportunity.
Friends aren't just people you hang out with at bars. I know plenty of old clients and cowerkers to fill some pretty high level positions, if I needed to.
Re:Payment plan problems (Score:3, Insightful)
There needs to be some sort of feedback loop to make the system work better. Most systems work better with checks and balances. Most of the money up front, but some of it later (6 months?) after the employee has been there a while. Maybe give the headhunter bonuses based off of the employee's performance. The headhunter would want more money because of the higher risk, and longer period until payment is complete.
- doug
PS: I've never seen this in action, so take this with a grain of salt.
I certainly have favorites, but use protection! (Score:5, Insightful)
But I'm not sure it matters... you can pretty much get headhunters to do what you want by following a few simple rules:
First, remain independant -- don't agree to use only one Headhunter and, in fact, make it clear that whoever you use has no right to submit you for a job without your permission. You can maintain control this way, which leads us to:
Second, take what you want, leave the rest alone -- make it clear what you're looking for in a job and don't accept anything else (up to the point you can afford it). Headhunters make money by getting you to agree to work, so they'd rather be a bit annoyed with you and spend twice as long finding you a job than losing you as a client completely. As long as a headhunter is willing to call you up, you have the possibility that they'll be the one to find your perfect job, so you don't want to alienate anyone, but that's tough to do since they're on commission (all the ones I've seen).
Thirdly, demand open contracts -- this is the only one that's not completely trivial to negotiate. Many headhunting companies have policies that they will tell you the percentage off the top that they're skimming. Rates vary, of course -- I've seen 10% and 50%... still, if the money's right this may not be important to you. Most companies will agree to tell you, and in some cases, you can get a better deal going with someone's competitor. Lots of the jobs on web search engines are the same job posted through various employment agencies, so you may be able to get more money for the same job from someone else. Having this rate disclosure helps prevent that, and it also gives you a bit of a bargaining chip if you turn out to be really good in the position.
Just using those three rules, I think you can convince yourself that whoever is offering you jobs is at least somewhat likely to find something you'll accept. And for the most part, even if you can't stand your headhunter, that should barely affect your job once you're signed on and getting paid. While I like that my agent calls me up or takes me out for drinks now and again, it's not worth losing much salary over.
There are good headhunters out there (Score:3, Insightful)
- What they give you. The proof of a good headhunter is if they can give you introductions directly to the hiring managers for jobs you want. You are leveraging their contacts and thats it. They're not your friends or your family, so only trust them as far as their introductions. Fire ones that guilt-trip you and only be loyal to the ones that perform.
-
What they don't give you - sound career advice. Headhunters can't give you good career advice. How could they?. .
.they aren't in the same field as you. Furthermore, their advice often incents you to switch jobs often. . . which helps them line their pockets and hurts your career. They can give good resume-design advice. . . that's about all the advice they CAN give you and you should probably take it -- short of lying (at least doctor-up a resume format that they like for their sales-job -- keep your original for other purposes if you feel so compelled).
- When should you [not] use them? Use them when you don't have personal contacts that can help you get in the door. At that point they are worth the money. Avoid using them to get you into a company that you already have an "in" with. They can screw up your salary negotiation and collect a fee if they've already submitted your resume where you could have been hired directly. Be up-front about having them avoid those companies you have an "in" with.
-
Never sign an exclusive. This is good life advice and extends outside of headhunting. You should always be in contact with a few headhunters and then force them to compete. (although let them know which companies you are already submitted to so you don't get submitted more than once.)
-
They should work all the time. Happily employed? Hoping for that big bonus? How do you know what is a good bonus and what isn't? Headhunters tell you by coming up with new job opportunities even when you aren't looking. (although they shouldn't show your resume unless they ask you first) Knowing what the market will bear is good for you career. What if you are unhappy?. . . well it sure doesn't hurt to have people beating the street for you ahead of time.
- Don't work with agents that don't respect your privacy. Good headhunters don't submit your resume without asking you first. If one submits your paper without asking you, then fire them immediately.
- Don't work with fools. Keep getting submitted for Javascript jobs when you wanted Java jobs? Stop using that headhunter. Not everyone is that inept, and it isn't worth your time to spend time on educating people who should care more about their jobs.
Good luck. . . just remember - headhunters are your suppliers (they are "contact" suppliers). They aren't your friends, and they aren't your supporters - they work for you and they only care about getting money for placing you. Treat them that way and push them to work hard and do a good job.Longer-term relationships (Score:2, Insightful)
I know a good recruiter in SF who placed the same guy 3 times during the dotcom boom, then this guy launched his own startup and used her to hire 2 people. She invests in the long-term.
Obviously, she understands the value in long term, but she's pretty rare. Sometimes she asks me technical questions when she's doing research on requirements. All recruiters are not clueless.
Also, a lot of people are forgetting that recruiters can add value in other ways, even in this economy. Any job offering nowadays get a load of resumes. Who's going to shuffle through all those? If the hiring manager uses a headhunter, then the resumes get filtered.
Some companies can afford to use recruiters as temporary HR personnel.
--t
Re:You don't want to use one, even if they're hone (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course, many (perhaps most) tech writers, managers, and head hunters are technologically clueless. I hope you're not going to argue that this is no big thing. Maybe head hunters are superfluous, but you're naive if you think that we can dispense with tech writers or managers. Though many developers seem to think you can...
I talked to a head hunter a few days ago for a contract job. (You can't get contract work without dealing with recruiters, unless you have a lot of personal contacts.) At first I was appalled by her technical ignorance. But as she listened to my explanations of what I'd been doing, and how it might relate to the job she was trying to fill, I realized she had the native intelligence to do her job properly, even if it meant filling in her knowledge gaps on the fly. She'll do well. She is, alas, an exception.
What a good, honest head hunter brings to the table is connections. He or she has a relationship with a lot of managers, and has studied their needs carefully. The last time I got a permanent job through a head hunter, she earned her commission by connecting me with an obscure startup I never would have found on my own. And she did a better job of pitching me to the company than I ever could have done on my own. I simply would not have gotten the job without her help.
It's worth mentioning that one of the other head hunters in her firm tried to steal her commission. He got hold of my contact info, called me up behind her back, and persuaded me to go to an interview with one of his clients. As you might expect with such an unprincipled asshole, he hadn't made the slightest attempt to confirm that I was anything like a match for the job, and the whole thing was a big waste of time. Unfortunately, this jerk is far more typical than his co-worker.
And more so now, then when this all happened. This was before there were sites like monster.com, that help you make your own connections. Which seems to have discouraged the more honest and capable recruiters, but not the nitwits who just spam managers with poorly chosen resumes.
Re:Huh? (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, but he was honest about his prior dishonesty. Assuming, of course, that you believe taking a bribe to be dishonest.
Incidentally, the word "disingenuous" means insincere or calculating. Look it up. [reference.com] When someone admits to unethical and possibly illegal activity, that doesn't strike me as typical insincere (or calculated) behavior.
Regardless, the tale was meant to provide an example of the sleazy business ethics of headhunters. You can learn a lot from stories told by even the worst scum of the earth.
Re:Longer-term relationships (Score:3, Insightful)
Why would an agency be so thoughtless when there are obviously so many qualified people looking for tech work you may ask? Because they know the government HAS to use a "government certified agency" - read has over $100,000+ in liability insurance and has filled out a bunch of forms.
I would LOVE to work with a real recruiter but for now, they are just resume sifters, handing us a pile that WE sort through and then WE narrow the choices and interview people so basically the recruiter gets paid for NOT doing their job. Beautiful.
Intellectually, I'm sure there are some non-scummy and integral recruiters out there somewhere but I'm so bitter and jaded over the many wretched experiences I've had that I'll always be skeptical of their existence.
- tokengeekgrrl
Re:wait a minute... (Score:2, Insightful)
My team is looking for a senior developer with a background in finance. We work with several head hunters, we fly people in to get interviewed. Plenty of candidates but no one out of the AT LEAST 20 that my manager has met with has been good and high-level enough. And all of them have jobs already, so they only reason they're interviewing w. us is because we offered them more.
My conclusion from this is that REALLY good senior developers are in rather short demand, and that companies do tend to hang on to them.
And we're located in NYC.