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Channelized DS3 with Linux? 59

Posted by Cliff from the routing-with-penguins dept.
minion asks: "We've been struggling to find a channelized DS3 card for Linux that is a standard PCI format (not CompactPCI, mPCI, etc). I find it hard to believe others out there don't want the same, as a lot of ISPs could save a lot of money this way, since Cisco routers that handle channelized DS3 *start* at $30,000! I've found this card, but that is all that I've found. It would be great to dump our current Cisco, and use it as a spare if our Linux router fails. Does anyone else have some experience with this?"
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Channelized DS3 with Linux? More

Channelized DS3 with Linux?

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  • Found this [linuxdevices.com]

    And found this [etinc.com]
    • Neither of these cards support Channilization (at least as far as the linked text mentions)

      As an ISP, I know the temptation to save $30,000 dollers seems like a good idea, but running a linux box with 28 routed interfaces (or more) seems like a recipe for disaster. I'd be more tempted to stick with a solution that works.

      Thats not to say that Linux doesn't scale as a router. I know some people are routing OC3's (and possibly higher) with Linux, but thats usually not dealing with all the headaches of end
      • ImageStream is getting ready to release a channelized DS3 card that can be used with our commercial line of Linux routers. It should be available in the next 60 days or so. The card is expected to cost around $5 K, which is about 1/3 the price of the Cisco card. The card can be loaded into our Rebel router, which is the industry's lowest cost DS3 router at a retail price of $1,999.

        Despite your comment that Linux is not the right platform for higher-end routing applications, the performance we see from Cisc

  • What does this card run anyway (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MerlynEmrys67 ( 583469 ) on Thursday October 02, 2003 @04:09PM (#7117044)
    So you never specify how much this DS-3 card runs you. I can't see volumes being that high, so I am assuming it is a multi-hundred dollar card (and not breaking into the thousands). That said - are you planning on a reliable Linux Router (multi power supplies, redundant yada yada yada's) or just a low end box with a couple of these cards thrown in.

    If you are talking about the former - you might be suprised to find out you won't be much under 30K (those reliability things are expensive), if not - how much are you willing to give up in reliability (6 9s w/ Cisco - 3 9s with Linux + cheap hardware) and what is the cost of the downtime.

    If you all ready have the Cisco kit (you did say you would run it for redundancy) - why change a working configuration for Linux ? Is it because "Linux is cool" or is there a business reason. If it is the former - I doubt you will be successful. If it is the later do the analisis above and see what the answer really is

  • Cisco backup? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by iksowrak ( 208577 )
    Uh, I may be missing something but if you already have the Cisco gear to run your setup why on earth would you want to store it on the shelf and run a Linux PC in its place? Cisco devices are designed for exactly the application you want meaning they're fast and reliable. I haven't priced DS3 pipes in a while but if you're purchasing anything that even has DS3 as part of it's name I'd keep with the Cisco gear since there's obviously *some* decent cash floating around.

    I dunno. But what I'm hearing is: "We
  • This is an interesting point. A DS3 is 54 Mbps, or thereabouts, and PCI runs on a 66MHz bus, right? Wouldn't you be wasting bandwidth if you put it into a PC? I thought that was why they are putting the 100Mbps ethernet onto the Northbridge to avoid the PCI bus entirely. I have to admit to only a vague understanding, so if anyone out there knows better please chime in.

  • eBay? (Score:3, Informative)

    by LarryRiedel ( 141315 ) on Thursday October 02, 2003 @04:47PM (#7117490)

    I think <10kUSD can get a used 7200 series router and channelized DS-3 (PA-MC-T3) card on eBay, not that I am recommending that approach, but it is a common configuration.

    Larry

  • Okay, I was able to purchase a good condition cisco 7206 with the npe-300, latest ios, with a dual atm ds3 interface for 12k, and an 8 port IMA t1 card, gotta love ebay. why bother with trying to make a high end and "reliable" linux router (i'm sorry, but linux doesn't have nearly an efficient enough network stack to handle channelized ds3 i/o, and isp's that make the step up to ds3, generally move to multiple ds3's, and I'm not doing that on a linux box!), with pci network cards, to replace a good ol' cis
    • Tried to get a support license for that Cisco box yet?

      Methinks you'll run to eBay for spare hardware. How does 2 day shipping round out your uptime?
    • The good ol' Cisco router your are talking about is indeed "old," both in design as well as being used.

      I agree with your conclusion that you don't want to engineer your own Linux solution when you get up into ATM/SONET at DS3 speeds and above. But why go with a Cisco? They don't guarantee line-rate performance because their products don't deliver it when you activate advanced packet processing features like QoS, packet filtering, and NAT. When you buy a Cisco router like what you describe, you can expect t

  • 7206, FlexWan and some PA cards. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Zeio ( 325157 ) on Thursday October 02, 2003 @04:57PM (#7117627)
    I don't know about $30,000. I have a FlexWan, which is a PA card adapter for the 6500's [which is the pricey but elegant way to go], and a PA-T3 and on the 7206VXR. They can be had for much less than $30,000, especially on ebay, but you can get prices down on Cisco if you aren't dumb enough to pay MSRP. You can also get PA-T3+ and PA-2T3+ for your FlexWan or 7200.

    Here is a 7206VXR for ~$8000 that has what you want. [ebay.com]

    I'm no great fan of IOS, I much prefer Junos and my Juniper M10, but you'd be psychotic to even pretend a PC [despite the fact that Olive/Junos is based on FreeBSD from the PC, but each PIC uses network processors] could handle a T3 the way a Cisco or Juniper could. Yeah, its not very much bandwidth, but there are a lot fo interesting things these real pices of equipment can do for you.

    Also, using a monitor OS like IOS and network processors is a lot better than interrupt driven crazyness that goes on in a PC.

    In fact, I have a spare spare PA-T3 card I would sell you.
    • The problem with purchasing Cisco equipment from E-Bay is that you'll have to relicense the software, if you want to get a support contract. You do want the support contract right?

      Even if you don't get the contract then you may be running the hardware without the appropriate license. I believe Ed Foster at infoworld or someone else there recently (within 2 months) wrote an article that deals with this bargain hardware.

      Essentially the cost of ended up being more than the router.
      • Hey wait a minute! I'm trying to promote FreeBSD on Juniper here! You of all people should be trying to help!

        If you have bigger pieces of networking gear, usually Cisco and Juniper will help you out with the smaller cruft you collect. You are their customer and if you whine and beg they do give in. MSRP isn't a rule written in stone.

        Also, to the EULAs and licensing agreements and whatnot. I'm not aware of any court upholding the preposterous: -- This is a licensed property that has a HUGE value when you

        • I think that you must think that I'm Jordan Hubbard. Sorry, I'm not. I'm not dumping on you either.

          Check out this Ed Foster article [infoworld.com]. Here's a quote:

          Many customers are discovering that the actual cost of acquiring used hardware may go beyond the price of relicensing the software.

          "I made the mistake of showing a visiting Cisco rep the 2611 router I'd purchased on eBay for $1,200," says Mark Payton, director of IT at the Vermont Academy, a school in Saxtons River, Vt. "Not only are they asking me to pa

    • That link isn't exactly what they want. I'm pretty sure they need a PA-MC-T3 card. I had thought that the PA-MC-T3 might not be supported in the FlexWan blades, but I checked and I was wrong, so you could go with a FlexWan with a PA-MC-T3.
      Also, on the paying list issue, I agree. You shouldn't have to pay MSRP on your Cisco gear. If you can't get a break, ask your telco. They might be a large Cisco reseller and could get you a good price (esp if you're starting order bigger pipes from them). They are g

  • Random thoughts... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by FreeLinux ( 555387 ) on Thursday October 02, 2003 @04:58PM (#7117630)
    The thought of relying on a standard PC to drive/frame/time/switch a DS3 makes me nervous. There is a lot to be said for Application Specific Integrated Circuits(ASICs), which is what the Cisco uses.

    Cisco's routers are expensive. Perhaps Nortel, Juniper, Foundry, Fore, Riverstone, etc might be less expensive but offer similar functionality and reliability.

    How many channels are actually needed from the DS3? A Cisco 3600 can drive up to 12Mbps on a HSSI interface and would cost a lot less the $30,000 but, you couldn't go beyond 12 Mbps.

    How much does a DS3 cost you? In my area, the monthly cost of such a circuit is such that a one time cost of $30,000 for hardware is really no big deal.
    • This kinda goes back to what I was saying here [slashdot.org] and here [slashdot.org]. Again, we need more information from the requestor. Driving 12Mbps out of a HSSI might not meet their needs if they are going channelized to pull a bunch of DS1s into a DS3. I can't really think a way off the top of my head to do that with a 3600+HSSI without your telco/upstream doing some fancy stuff. One way the telco could do it is term the DS3 on one of their boxes and hand the traffic back off to the customer across a point-to-point DS3 termi
    • If it doesn't have to be channelized, there is a 2600/3600 module to do that: http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/modules/ps2 797/products_data_sheet09186a008010fba2.html Otherwise...you're going to need a 7000/7200/7500.

  • WHY? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by lostindenver ( 53192 ) on Thursday October 02, 2003 @05:06PM (#7117716)
    as my grand pappy said: Use the right tool for the right job... You could use juniper or nortel. But just do it right.

  • Maybe? (Score:5, Informative)

    by FreeLinux ( 555387 ) on Thursday October 02, 2003 @05:06PM (#7117724)
    PCI Adapter [imagestream.com]

    PCI Adapter [sbei.net]

    Linux Router Page [uni-bielefeld.de]
    • Maybe, maybe not...
      I took a quick peek at those cards and they both looked like clear channel DS3. I'm kinda going along on fuzzy memory here, but I think that if its channelized you need a M13 framer on the board to break out the T1s. I don't think you'll be able to do that in software. Something like this card [sbs.com] may do the trick, but its only appears to have WinNT and VxWare support. The problem with the clear channel cards is you have to break the DS3 down into DS1 channels and provide framing on those

  • Why would you want to? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Sandman1971 ( 516283 ) on Thursday October 02, 2003 @05:15PM (#7117816) Homepage Journal
    Question is, why would you want to? Most ISPs will 'lease' you a router when you get any type of dedicated internet connection. They also have this little thing called SRA or MTTR (Service Repair Agreement or Mean Time To Repair). If your router blows, they'll replace it in a matter of hours. If you own your own equipment, you'll either have to buy a spare (doubling your price) or suffer long downtime (How long of a downtime are you willing to afford?). ISPs also buy routers in bulk. So what may cost you 30,000$ for a Cisco router, ISPs pay a fraction of that. (And I dunno where you got that it starts at 30,000$.. there are much cheaper routers that will do channelized DS3, including in the Cisco family). You also have to think... going the Linux route... what happens if the motherboard blows, or the power supply, or the harddrive, or the NIC cards? You'd prety much eed a complete 2nd system as a backup. What about vulnerabilities? If this is out on the net, Cisco IOS is much more stable and secure than a linux box. How many man hours are you gonna spend patching stuff, compared to just leaving the Cisco router alone cuz it's not affected? If you do need to upgrade, upgrading IOSs is a joke. This isn't some dinky little home DSL connection where a Linux router is better than a 50$ Linksys router. You're trying to make yourself intelligent, but really, get a clue.
    • I used a homebrew T1 router (33 mhz 486 with a SDLCOMM T1 card and 10mhz ethernet card) running BSDI and gated for a number of years. Reason? Cost. Even with the BSDI license and hardware it was way cheaper than the router my ISP wanted to sell me (this was circa 1995) and I could maintain it myself (ie, add routes, etc). I sold the hardware a few years back for nearly what I paid for it. If he is up to the challenges in building and maintaining the Linux router I highly recommend it as a character bui
    • I'd say that if you're pulling in a channelized DS its prolly not coming from your ISP. You generally see people pull those in if they have a bunch of remote sites that need DS1 connectivity. You'll run the DS3 to a CO MUX and break the DS1s out of there. As far as getting a cheap cisco router to handle a channelized DS3, you might be out of luck. I'm pretty sure there's not a card for the 2600/3600 series to do that. I think that the smallest card may be a PA-MC-T3 which means you're looking at a 7200
    • While it may be flame bait, as far as _security_ goes, a linux machine acting as a bridge/router with no services enabled (or allow ssh from inside), is going to be just as secure... To my knowledge there havn't been a whole lot of exploits on linux TCP/IP stack directly... Whether its a good idea is a completely seperate thread, and you're probably right, Cisco is a better choice... But a hardened linux system not running services is going to be just as secure, and it at least gives you the joy of bein

  • There's a REASON Cisco line cards are expensive (Score:4, Informative)

    by pyite ( 140350 ) on Friday October 03, 2003 @12:25AM (#7121071)
    It's not as if Cisco has no competition and can charge whatever they want. The reason Cisco chassis and line cards are so expensive is because they are GOOD and FAST. For example, the Catalyst 6500 has a 32Gbps backplane and with a SFM, a 256Gbps Switch Fabric. Fast WAN connections are generally only used on networks with large LANs and such organizations can justify something like a 6513, which loaded with a few cards, clocks in around $125,000.
    • And, just to add something to my original post. I am a proponent for using Linux in certain routing situations. I have used it with a T1 with a Sangoma [sangoma.com] PCI CSU/DSU card. It works very well and very reliably, once you get it configured. However, you have to mess around with drivers and such, which is something you don't need to do with Cisco hardware. Cisco stuff "just works."
  • Are you using a full DS3 at the moment? Are you using all the channels for data, or mixing voice and data?

    Are you trying to tie in multiple remote sites? What other interfaces are you looking at?
    I.E. a Chann DS3 coming in and fast ethernet on the inside? etc...

    What about using an external MUX for the Ds1-Ds3?You say you have a cisco box, what model and why are you looking to replace it?

    Without knowing more, I would say the Cisco 3600 is your best all around choice. Check Ebay. The main downside with usin
    • Are you using a full DS3 at the moment? Are you using all the channels for data, or mixing voice and data?

      Are you trying to tie in multiple remote sites? What other interfaces are you looking at?
      I.E. a Chann DS3 coming in and fast ethernet on the inside? etc...

      What about using an external MUX for the Ds1-Ds3?You say you have a cisco box, what model and why are you looking to replace it?

      Without knowing more, I would say the Cisco 3600 is your best all around choice.

      We actually have 1 OC-12 and 1 OC-3 c
  • It may be too late to post, but this might still be good info for somebody:

    Until last year, I ran an ISP. Even though we had a pair of 7206VXRs (and access to ebay), we didn't use Cisco CT3 cards. Those cards were too expensive and had these awkward limitations: Bonding T1s was a problem. Traffic shaping doesn't work well. And you can can't have multiple sub-T1 rate customers on a single T1 channel (for example, you can't ask the phone company to put 6 256Kbps (256Kbps = 4 DS0s) customers on a single T1)
    • Not to bust balls, or nitpick, but I'm curious about something you wrote...

      You said that you were running HSRP on two Linux boxes.

      HSRP is a Cisco proprietary protocol, and I know of no Linux implementation (I did a quick google for that, which confirmed what I'd already suspected).

      Has someone implemented HSRP on Linux, or did you do this with VRRP (The open standard HSRP workalike, for which there is a Linux implementation), or did you use another means alltogether?

      Again, just curious...

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