Advances in Fire and Rescue Technology? 50
He Definitely Didn't Inhale asks: "As anyone could imagine, being trapped inside a burning building would be terrible, but people risk their lives every day to save people stuck in that situation. While fire sprinklers are installed in some buildings they are far from ubiquitous, and also tend to cause plenty of water damage during their use. Some server rooms are isolated and can be filled with an inert gas in the case of a fire, but people - and fire - need oxygen to live. Another idea has recently been patented (USP#6,446,731), whereby a truck mounted high capacity fan is used to remove smoke and heat from burning buildings through the use of an extensible tube. This could make it much easier and safer for firefighters to rescue building occupants and put out the fire. Are any similar technologies or methodologies in use today? What are some design issues that may need to be resolved before this concept can be used safely and effectively? Are there any reasons not to pursue the development of this potentially life-saving idea?" Earlier this year, Ask Slashdot discussed Halon systems. Folks interested in this topic may want to give that previous article a read.
Re:p1st33??? (Score:1)
A FART?
fanning the flames... (Score:2)
Now I haven't read the patent, but wouldn't such a system cause a negative pressure situation in the building, causing it to pull in more fresh air, thus fanning the flames?
Maybe I'll go read the patent and
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:2)
"FIRE PASTE!"
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:4, Interesting)
For a while now they've had gas engine powered fans. They open the front door, open a hole on the roof, and point the thing straight into the house. The cool air blowing in displaces the heat and smoke so the firefighters can enter and see what they are doing. Usually, the hoses are right behind them, so the fact that the hoses and people can get right into the house with the water offsets any flame fanning effects.
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:2)
Where have you seen this technique used? This will basically turn the house into a giant blow-torch. In my experience these fans are usually used to remove smoke from the house after the fire has been extinguished.
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:4, Informative)
That technique (Positive Pressure Ventilation) is widely used in the fire service, pretty much everywhere in the U.S. It is, as near as I can tell, pretty much ubiquitous. The training materials provided by IFSTA teach PPV, and PPV training materials and equipment are very much in demand in the fire service.
Your point about turning the home into a giant blow-torch does have some validity of course. PPV, when done wrong, CAN have negative consequences. Timing is crucial to do proper PPV. As one of the parent threads pointed out, the idea is to force the smoke and super-heated gases away, clearing a path for the fire crews to advance on the seat of the fire and extinquish it.
Another factor is where the PPV fans are placed. Firefighters are taught to always (when possible) attack a fire from the un-burnt side. What this means, is that when you "push" the fire, whether with PPV fans, or with the air pushing effect of hose-lines with fog nozzles, you push the fire back into territory it's already burned... this is part of the "locate, confine, extinguish" strategy.
If you did the opposite, attacking the fire from the already burned side, you would not want to try and use PPV, or you would indeed be helping to spread the fire into areas that were not yet damaged.
For anybody who's interested, here's a link to some more info: http://www.tempest-edge.com/ppv/ [tempest-edge.com]
In my experience these fans are usually used to remove smoke from the house after the fire has been extinguished.
That's also a valid use of ventilation fans, although the fans used for negative / exhaust ventilation are usually smaller, electric fans, with less capacity in CFM.
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:2)
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:2)
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:3, Insightful)
That's a HUGE question facing the fire service, whether you use PPV or not. There are really three basic techniques to handle that issue.
1. size-up, and make a determination if an aggressive interior attack is feasible in the first place. If there are signs of imminent structural collapse, go defensive mode, "surround and drown."
2. If you initiate an interior attack, allow a certain amount of time (varies from dept. t
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:4, Insightful)
My considered opinion is that the "inventor" of this particular device doesn't know much about firefighting, if he seriously intends to try to fight fire this way. Doing it this way, would most likely just make matters worse, as several people have pointed out.
Of course, he could turn it around, and he'd just have a truck-mounted PPV fan.
Then again, ventilation fans already exist for doing both positive and negative pressure ventilation, and I question whether simply truck-mounting it either way, is sufficiently different enough from existing practice to justify granting a patent anyway.
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:1)
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:2)
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:1)
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:1)
I think I explained why the house would NOT be turned into a giant blow-torch by a fan that can force cool air into a single room. You're not going to be blowing hurricane force winds into every room at the same time.
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:1)
Saw a bit on something like this on PBS a few years back (8-10 years).
They profiled a rural volunteer fire department that was useing a hot air ballon inflation fan. They would place it in an exterior doorway and pump outside air into the structure. This allowed the firefighers to wear lighter turnout gear, move faster, and see the fire easier (no smoke filled rooms).
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:2)
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:2)
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:1)
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:1)
The fan is not started until firefighters are ready to immediately enter and attack the fire. In some cases the fan can create a bit of a chimney effect, but the benefit of the immediate improvement in interior conditions is so great that the fire can be knocked down much more quickly than without.
Bear in mind, also, that putting out the fire is only one of the firefighters' goals.
Re:fanning the flames... (Score:2)
Fire requires three things, temperature, oxygen and material that can burn. Take away any one of those, and there can be no fire. When you blow cool air at a sufficiently high rate at a fire, the flames die down, creating a path for the firemen to enter and engage the fire.
Anyone whose ever tried kickstarting a campfire by waving something planar as fast as possible know how this works.
Couldn't this make the fire worse? (Score:1)
It might make more sense if it was an equalized system, where the amount of air being sucked out, was replaced with an equal amount of fresh air being blown in. You could also atomize water into the blown air to help increase the humidity in the room.
I don't see this system working well for a whole building, but seems like it coul
Um, what about... (Score:2)
Re:Um, what about... (Score:2)
Like when a business cuts losses, sure it doesn't cut the losses that have already
Ask Slashdot (Score:2)
(Some things just don't seem appropriate for Ask Slashdot, ya know?)
Umm, no thanks. (Score:2)
Let's see, 'IANAL' won't work here. How about 'IANYPRB' (I Am Not Your Personal Research B*tch) ?
The building I work in (Score:3)
Pretty smart little building.
It's rather ineffective (Score:1)
First we need quick lessons in one of many effective venting techniques called Positive Pressure Ventilation (PPV) [unifire.com].
Here is an example of a PPV fan [mac.com].
The vehicle-mounted fan basically works in the opposite direction. We actually have an electric fan that was used in a similar fashion (Smoke Ejector). "Used" being emphasized. It has been proven over and over again in training and actual fire events that "sucking" air out of a building
Re:It's rather ineffective (Score:2, Informative)
Sprinkler Systems ROCK. Haylon (newer chemicals) systems rock. Just don't be stupid when the alarm goes off...you should have plenty time to evacuate or cancel the countdown before the system purges.
Don't even think about fighitng a winning battle with a fire using the hoses provided to you in a building (or a garden hose for that matter). Hoses in a house or building should ONLY be used in a situation whe
Speaking from Experience (Score:1)
Additionally, I like the idea of having sealed rooms. I have seen some concrete enclosure that are great for keeping the room cool in general, although sometimes a moisture buildup is the side effect, but is also good for keeping heat out. As an aside, firef
Re:Speaking from Experience (Score:1)
I did not mean to imply that we turned them off.
other advances (Score:1)
But despite cool stuff, it seems most firefighting is not technological and has only evolved slowly over the last 100 years. Wildland firefighters still use a shovel and not much else, even with air drops. Someone must still risk life entering a b
Re:other advances (Score:3, Interesting)
The most obvious change has been lightning detectors. There are very few fire lookouts staffed these days; automated detection systems plot where stri
This is a bad idea... (Score:2)
It's the same reason that blowing on a fire reignites coals, and they have those blowing devices for fireplaces (yeah, I'm sorry, the name escapes me at the moment). As long as there is any oxygen content, moving air will just provide a fresher fuel and inflame the fires.
Obligatory, karma-whoring quote "Inflammable means flammable? What a country!"
Bellows? (Score:2)
But yes, air makes fire hotter. That's why you close the vents to slow cook on a charcoal grill, and why they force air into blast furnaces for smelting.
Although part of the issue is oxygen being fed in, it also helps to blow off the layer of ash that forms over the coals, allowing them to get enough oxygen for them to burn, and to kee
An alternative to Halon. (Score:2)
In use for years already (Score:1)
The patent might be new but.... (Score:2)
Fire Alarms (Score:1)
Could someone explain the differences in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5-alarm fires?
I've heard it was the number of stations that are asked to respond to the fire, but dont know how accurate that is.
I searched google for things like, fire alarms fire alarm codes, fire codes, three alarm, five alram, but all i get or advetisers for cheap fire alarms and news stories about varying alarmed fires in the news.
Re:Fire Alarms (Score:2)
Re:Fire Alarms (Score:2)
a 1-alarm fire would be the nearest station had to come out and control it, a 5-alarm would be a fire that took the 5 nearest stations to control it.
Re:Fire Alarms (Score:1)
Cobra Cutting Extinguisher (Score:2)
Since you only need one tool to get inside, rescue and extinguish this can save a lot of time and maybe lives. There might be cases where it's not the perfect tool so it cannot replace everything else, but for those cases it excels it have had a lot of success.
Re:Cobra Cutting Extinguisher (Score:2)
There is a company that uses the water itself to cut through a wall, which means that the fire is defeated as soon as you get inside without any unnecessary oxygen addition.
Since you only need one tool to get inside, rescue and extinguish this can save a lot of time and maybe lives. There might be cases where it's not the perfect tool so it cannot replace everything else, but for those cases it excels it have had a lot of success.