Dealing with Outdated Automotive Software? 156
Jan Hendrik Montag asks: "My car mechanics had problems to fix a problem in electronic motor management with my 14 yr old Audi. That was not too surprising. But as my mechanic consulted a Volkswagen/Audi-company, they received the answer, that my car is too old and they don't have the appropriate devices and software to read my cars' mind. I just wonder, what will happen in 20 or 30 years to then-vintage-cars from today? Shouldn't there be a necessity to declare old car-software and diagnostic devices open-source just to make sure a collector then can repair his/her car just as it is possible to repair an old car from the 60's? Or will those cars be doomed in case of failure? What would be a solution?"
OS Cars? (Score:1, Funny)
it's been running for 3 years without a service
It would be nice, but... (Score:2, Insightful)
Necessary? not really (Score:5, Informative)
For some time now, you have been able to buy generic engine controllers which just need calibrating to work with your car's engine (I know, I work for a company who makes them). These aftermarket ones used to be pretty dumb - time, emissions legislation and cheaper microcontrollers have made a big difference to this now though. In fact, it's not inconceivable that an aftermarket one would give better performance/economy/emissions than the old one, by having more accurate calculation, better modelling of engine behaviour, etc.
Maybe there's someone who's desperate to use only original equipment, who will insist on using an engine controller with a dodgy old 8-bit micro when the cheapest Ford is coming off the production line with a 32-bit micro. I don't see the point in it myself. The engine controller doesn't change the character of the car (if calibrated to give a similar response to the old one), so replacing it shouldn't be an issue.
Grab.
Re:Necessary? not really (Score:3, Informative)
I've worked with engine control computers and I know it is just not that easy.
-Mary
Re:Necessary? not really (Score:2)
An example of something that would be difficult to do now would be the BMW thr
Re:Necessary? not really (Score:2)
Nice idea, but I'll pass on this one. For example:
"I see you are trying to stop, would you like some help
It's not the control - it's the diagnostics (Score:2)
Twenty five years ago it was possible to tune an engine without reference to a computer. All you needed was an RPM meter, a timing light, and spark plug gap gauge to do a basic tune-up. No longer.
These days it's both easier and harder. You plug in a diagnostic computer and it tells you what needs to be adjusted and/or replaced, based on the codes it receives from the engine sensors. On the othe
Re:It's not the control - it's the diagnostics (Score:2)
Re:It's not the control - it's the diagnostics (Score:2)
flashes the service engine light, ends in a 55 when it's done. very simple, very easy to work with.
Re:It's not the control - it's the diagnostics (Score:2)
Re:It's not the control - it's the diagnostics (Score:2)
Re:Necessary? not really (Score:2)
A few years ago I was called in by a city to give an estimate and recommendations on a data management system. The systems at the time were document control packages, perfect for CAD and they were doing civil and architectual engineering so in theory we were a perfect fit. When I went to look at their historical data, however, it was paper archive
Yes, necessary. Essential. Sine qua non. (Score:2)
You can say that, but the problem is that the internal combustion engine is a pretty sloppy device. There are clearances and component tolerances from the mass-air meter and fuel injectors at the intake to the HEGO sensors in the exhaust manifold, and everywhere in between.
No two engines are exactly alike; hell,
Re:Necessary? not really (Score:2)
Surviving the test of time should be trivial, as long as open standards are used.
Re:Necessary? not really (Score:2)
Do you know what the most powerful software-based property management system was 25 years ago? Or what platform/OS it ran on?
The New York county that I live in has property records dating back to the mid 1600's preserved. NYC on the other hand, lost all sorts of records -- mostly tax stuff during 9/11.
Open standards mean nothing if you have never heard of them.
Re:Necessary? not really (Score:2)
Answer: yes, if you want the emissions, performance and fuel economy required for modern vehicles. It is impossible (not just difficult, literally impossible) to meet all three of these using a mechanical system, which is the reason no new car for 10 years has used a carbuerettor. There are now legal limits for emissions which cannot be met by a purely mechanical system.
Regarding your pap
I suggest you get your head out of your arse (Score:2)
Re:I suggest you get your head out of your arse (Score:2)
The CD data format is is a published ISO standard, and the interface to a CD drive is also a published standard. The only "proprietary hardware" is in the implementation of those standards, to transfer data off the (standard) CD and across the (standard) elec
Listen Pal (Score:2)
The format may be open and published, but that doesn't mean that you'll be able to build an optical drive that'll read your media in the future any more than you could hook a wax cylinder of data up to your SAN now.
Code retrevial on old stuff (Score:2)
Re:Code retrevial on old stuff (Score:2)
Don't know who prints them for Audi; GM uses HELM.
Re:Code retrevial on old stuff (Score:1)
D.
Not built to last (Score:3, Informative)
As as a person who drives a car from the 60's ('64 Rambler Classic, specifically!), I can honestly say there is no way even an advanced home mechanic can fix their modern car as easily as that car... not the least reason being that most modern cars greet you with a rats nest of plastic and wires when you open the hood.
With older cars, you open the hood to find an engine of all things! Hell, there's enough room to climb in there and sit next to it while you work!
Anywho, I've heard stories of people sucessfully plugging their generic laptops into their car's computer and getting some useful data out of it. Unfortunately I don't have any sources
And yes, I agree that releasing software for outdated cars would be a Good Thing(tm), as it would make it that much easier for the average Joe to tinker should he be so inclined. Tinkering is seldom a bad thing!
=Smidge=
Re:Not built to last (Score:2)
Built to meet the terms of the law, though (Score:2)
For the average mechanic, knowing about carburetors or points is a complete waste of time. No car has rolled off a high-volume assembly line with either in years, and even the distributor is going the way of the dodo. If he wants a job he learns about the stuff that comes into the shop every day, not the only-driven-on-Sundays classic that goes past his house a few times a year.
I don't have a problem with cars that
Re:Built to meet the terms of the law, though (Score:2)
Sadly, this is true, even for classics and exotics. Just last year, I had to wait *weeks* to get all the proper parts for a complete rebuild on the four Weber two-barrels that sit atop my Ferrari Dino 308gt4 - these parts simply did not exist in North America, and had to be shipped from Ital
Re:Built to meet the terms of the law, though (Score:2)
That's odd; I haven't heard of any problems getting DCNF rebuild kits. They are sold on eBay all the time. Personally, I use Pierce Mani [piercemanifolds.com]
Re:Not built to last (Score:2)
Re:Not built to last (Score:2)
Re:Not built to last (Score:2)
Re:Not built to last (Score:2)
Re:Not built to last (Score:1)
Re:Not built to last (Score:1)
I dunno about MUCH, be yeah definately more. Bear in mind that my car has a naturally asperated straight-6, while the modern V6 it probably turbo charged and definately fuel injected. I never argued that more modern engines aren't more powerful/efficient! (Rambler puts out ~160hp, typical modern V6 is about 200-230 for larger cars)
How much does AMC/Chrysler/DMX make off your Rambler? How much off of a PT Cruiser
Re:Mmmm... Steel frames (Score:2)
Re:Mmmm... Steel frames (Score:1)
my vehicle has (nearly) an open source computer (Score:1)
wow! (Score:2)
Phrases like "Anywho, I've heard stories of people sucessfully plugging their generic laptops into their car's computer and getting some useful data out of it. Unfortunately I don't have any sources :( (If I find some I'll let you know!)" just make me glad I took the time to read it.
Get a second opinion (Score:2)
1. Never trust mechanics
2. When someone tells me a certain mechanic can be trusted, refer to rule #1.
They will rob you blind if given the slightest chance they can get away with it.
IMO, late 70s to mid 80s automotive computers were crap. They were basically a computer controlled carburetor, with some timing adjustments. The EFI systems at the time were a little b
maybe... (Score:2)
LIAR!!! (Score:2)
> 2. When someone tells me a certain mechanic can be trusted, refer to rule #1.
I'm a mechanic =(
I don't believe you...
Heh (Score:5, Insightful)
14 years is not that old. These cars should still be very fixable. You don't need a new car, you need a new mechanic. Ask around.
-Sean
Re:Heh (Score:1)
Re:Heh again (Score:2)
As to the rest of your comments, whatever...
New cars are not designed to be maintained... (Score:2, Insightful)
I just had a problem with my 1996 Cavalear. Long story short I knew it was an ignition problem so I replaced the spark plugs, then the spark plug wires. Neither of these fixed the problem and the next thing to replace was the coil pack and then the ignition module.
Since I had just replace the wires I had found the coil packs and ignition modules we mounted in the dumbest palace...on the back of the engine, above the transmission! Now I know modern cars are packing the engine into a smaller and smaller
At least you found all your plugs (Score:2)
Fun fun... a day job for what should be 10 mins.
Re:At least you found all your plugs (Score:1)
Some people claim you have to do that on those models (I have a '99 Cougar), but you can do it without having to take off the intake manifold, I'm told. You just need a 6" socket extension.
I have to do this on my car soon. I hope those claims are correct, although it wouldn't hurt to clean the manifold anyway.
-RJ
Nope, not a ford (Score:2)
I hear newer versions have the battery only accessible thru the wheel-well.. have to take off the tire to get to it.. sheesh ( I know the neons do that.. donno about my model thou, as they made it smaller, and I wont buy a new one )
I think my next car will be a 1970... or ill just get out m
Re:Nope, not a ford (Score:2)
Re:Nope, not a ford (Score:2)
Re:Nope, not a ford (Score:2)
On the other hand, I recently purchased a 1979 Ford Bronco with a 400ci V8 - lotsa room to get in, under, around - everywhere - to play/tinker/fix (and yeah, it needs a *lot* of work yet before I will really feel safe driving it - fortunately, most of it is minor).
Re:At least you found all your plugs (Score:2)
It's supposed to be a 6 hour job if you know what you're doing. Was far easier to replace them early(at 75,000 miles instead of 100,000) than wait.
cars are not designed to be maintained... (Score:2)
The front of the engine is considered a lot more hostile than the back, and they moved the coils from the front to the back quite a long time ago because of the temperature shock (radiators and blowy stuff I like to call 'wind') and the occasional puddle that gets thrown up.
The time I learned all about this was when my Ford Fie
How many options do you want? (Score:5, Informative)
#2: http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/
Buy the diag tool yourself. Tell mechanic to get bent.
#3: 1989 Audi? Might not have OBD-I, and the engine controllers back then didn't have a bunch of diagnostics. Sounds like you may have a lazy mechanic who doesn't want to take the time to actually diagnose your problem instead of plugging in a connector and charging you $90.
#4: http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
Megasqui
Re:How many options do you want? (Score:1)
Full of It (Score:1)
Further, auto computers do only a few rudimentary things. Control spark advance and fuel delivery curves. I'd have to question why the dealer has mechanics who can't make a
Re:Full of It (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Full of It (Score:1)
Re:Full of It (Score:1)
FWIW, you still haven't pointed out what you'll be doing with a diagnostic computer beyond reading fault codes.
Re:Full of It (Score:1)
Finally, at least you paid a bit of attention in English class, and put debating in quotation marks. Even someone of you
If it were true (Score:2)
Of course... (Score:1)
You CAN build your own (Score:2)
Http://www.kitcars.com
Talk to this chap (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Talk to this chap (Score:2)
Actually.. this is only true if the car is built from virgin steel, which is happening less and less. Cars are heavily recycled. And while CO2 emmissions may be less, other "worse" pollutants are not. Cars older than 10 years have to abide by less strict emissions standards, and are often poorly maintained. The worst 10% of the cars
Scrapyard (Score:2)
R.
Performance Aftermarket (Score:2)
Sure, they are a bit overkill for applications like that, but at least you DO have an option when your module goes belly-up...
Re:Performance Aftermarket (Score:2)
car manufacturers go closed-source (Score:3, Interesting)
Needless to say, I'm pretty annoyed by that.
- Hubert
Re:car manufacturers go closed-source (Score:2)
Very few vehicles today have standard sized radios, but there are adapters available for everything, and if you can't find one, you can always get something that is trunk mounted and beams over 88.1 or something along those lines.
Also, don't forget to get a wiring harness adapter (unless you want to cut and crimp the wires yourself.
There will be no classics after 1985... (Score:5, Interesting)
You see, cars like the '57 Chevy or the '68 Camero were unique, they only made so may and the ones around today were lovingly restore or maticulously cared for so that they exsist today. But it's not just that, those cars were made to last. That's why you still see a '38 DeSoto or a '42 Dodge Pick-up. It's also why you can go to a junkyard, buy and old Impala or Oldsmobile and restore it. There's parts out there and you can repair what you can't find. But, as cars went on, and companies wanted larger proffit dividens, and then came plastics...
Nowdays cars aren't built to last, well, not last lifetimes. They're built to last until the payment book is done. Sure you have exceptions like Toyota Camary's or Honda Civic's that go on and on, but there's nothing unique to these cars. Their people movers, and that's it. I for one can't really imagine taking my kid, on a warm spring day, to an autoshow just to see a bunch of '92 - '96 Tercels or '87 - '91 Sentras.
Then there's the plastics I mentioned. My last car was a '94 Chevy Cavlaier Wagon. It was mostly the same car as the '81 Chevy Celebrity, or the Oldsmobile Ferenza, or the Pontica Sunfire / J2000, or the Cadillac Cimmaron, or the Buick Skylark / Century. All of which had a nearly 15 year stint known as the General Motor's J-Body design. But it's not just GM. The Ford Taurus is the Mercury Sable, or the Ford Crown Victoria is the same as the Mercury Grand Marquee or something like that... It's not just American cars though, the Pontiac Vibe is also the same car as the Toyota Matrix... Which was the retool from the wagon variance of, you guessed it, the GM J-Body. The only diffrence between these cars is a plastic molded bummper or body panel. Strip away that and you have the same 2.2l I4 engine mounted to the same H3430 3 speed automatic front wheel drive system with front disc brake and optional rear wheel discs...
But it goes beyond that, the materials used now days aren't even designed to last that long. A friend of mine has restored a 1985 Buick LeSabre. (GM H Body I believe, same thing as the Chevy Capris Classic for those keeping score.) A problem arose from when his coolant resevoir cracked and he had to replace it. General Motors changed the design to the resivoir in 1988 to make way for a redesign of the cruise control vacume system. So the part, even as a replacment part, was discontinued in 1991. The part itself was made of a sub-quality plastic that, after about 15 years becomes hard and brittle. So you can't go to a junkyard and buy another one off another Buick as, it too, will crack and brake. In the end, his only option was to use ducktape until the whole of the container rots and he has to make another container all together.
I know I have harped on American cars alot, and I really do love them, but even the author's AUDI is not unique. Audi has for years traded engine and body parts and techniques with Volkswagon, so much so that alot of Audi's now have VW W8 engines, while VW itself builds three of it's cars on the same chassi. The Passat, New Bettle, and Jetta are, when you trear them down, all the same car...
Oh well... Hopefully tennagers won't get ahold of too many Malibus or Impalas (the old ones, not this new crap) and enough will be spared 22" wheels and hydrolics that they will still be drivable in 20 years so that when I take my kid to a car show one day I can show them that, damnit, their used to be some nice cars. Some style that wasn't just an option package, that steel was fashioned into moving elegance, and cars of this caliber should not be messed with aside from the factory design, and that one time long ago, it was just wrong for Cadillac to make a pick-up.
Re:There will be no classics after 1985... (Score:2)
I agree with the cars you mentioned specifically, but you are wrong about the statement above. Not only are there going to be post 1985 classics, there will be more post 1985 classics than cars from the 30's-80's. Some of those cars are even going to be american. The viper, prowler and that new ford come to mind. Not my favorite cars, but there is definately a market for them. Imports also will have cl
Re:There will be no classics after 1985... (Score:1)
Re:There will be no classics after 1985... (Score:2)
I read an article a while back that traced the history of the Corvette and basically arrived at this conclusion. The modern Corvette is now pretty much a mid-life crisis car for people who have worked long enough to afford it. Apparently, the Thunderbird is no different, now.
Re:There will be no classics after 1985... (Score:1)
1967 seems to be the really hot year, but there's plenty of earlier ones. You just have to know where to look.
Woops, hehe. I meant the second generation Novas... The little hatchback from the 80's... My bad.
Re:There will be no classics after 1985... (Score:2)
Re:There will be no classics after 1985... (Score:1)
Re:There will be no classics after 1985... (Score:1)
As far as SUV size goes, it appears that many auto insurance plans will go up to 11 or 12 thousand pounds gross weight. Give it a turbo diesel and 11 MPG, and it'll sell like hot cakes while allowing another 10% less traffic to fit on the roads increasing congestion, reducing visibility, and increasing the occurrance of little grannies getting run over by soccer moms while they were talking on the cell phone.
Re:There will be no classics after 1985... (Score:2)
My 1991 Audi 200 quattro 20v is kicking around just fine, and it's lasted through -my- loan payments too(I bought it at 6 years, 100k miles- it now has 190k). It can kick the crap out of most of the 50's/60's cars you mention- 0-60 in about 5.9 seconds flat my friend. 280hp and all wheel drive.
Sure you have exceptions like Toyota Camary's or Honda Civic's that go on and on
My '91 Audi's
Re:There will be no classics after 1985... (Score:1)
No such thing (Score:2)
The diagnostic tools are still available. The code information should be in one of the service manuals. Worst case: 1.) I'm sure someone on the web has decoded the interface (hacked it anyway) and has a solution. 2.) There are aftermark
Dear Slashdot... (Score:1, Flamebait)
Dear Slashdot...
My old Pentium 133mhz computer had some problems. I took it to a repair shop, but they said it was too old to work on and that nobody knew windows 95 anymore. What should I do?
Find a better repair shop!
Seriously, cars in the late 70's had primitive computer systems[1] - when something fails, you go to a mechanic that knows how to fix it. The electronics are pretty durable, so even if the part can't be bought new, something ripped from a junked vehicle should work. (I saw anoth
Re:Dear Slashdot... (Score:2)
Not all the time; the first generation of ECUs/management units were martyrs to stray spikes, undervoltage and overvoltage. The Ford 'Montego' was renowned for wiping the EPROMs because of piss-poor earthing in the engine bay.
YMMV.
Re:Dear Slashdot... (Score:1)
Manual Code Retrieval (Score:2)
You can reset the codes by pulling the "memory" fuse for a few seconds (but have your CD player security code handy!)
Haynes service manuals are pretty good at telling you how to do stuff like this without expensive equipment.
VAG-COM, other ways (Score:3, Informative)
VAG-COM works with the older Audis going back to about 1989 or so. You need a special Y adapter to adapt the ODB-II style plug; if you have the plugs, they're two or three multicolored, 2-pin connectors, usually in the driver's side footwell or in the fusebox. 1991 was the first year in which fault codes could be stored in memory, so if your model is before that, you'll need to leave the engine running or crank it to 'generate' a code.
If your Audi is pre-1990 or so(you said 14 years yes?), run the car until the check light comes on or you see the problem; remove a spare fuse, plug the fuse into the top of the fuel pump relay for about 5 seconds and remove; the check engine light(engine block w/lightning bolt) will come on and blink a code of 4 digits, with a short pause between the digits; this will report all the codes and then repeat. Look up the codes at www.sjmautotechnik.com. Really really old Audis will either bounce the tachometer, or point it to different numbers in sequence to indicate the code.
If the problem is a no-start, you should attempt to crank the engine for 15 seconds, LEAVE the ignition ON, and then do the code retrieval.
You can also trigger an output test, which activates all the various eleectronic valves(there are many) in sequence.
If you still need more help, sign on to the 'quattro' list at www.audifans.com- but do so in a few days, the site admin had a death in the family right after we had some data loss, and things are pretty messed up unfortunately; you can't post, and archives are missing. We'll be running within a week. Google has a fair bit of our 10+ years of archives in its cache, however.
one other thing (Score:2)
Oh, I forgot- not only VAG-COM, but any diagnostic tool based on the VAG-155x series(I forget what the current model is, but the earliest model is the VAG-1551), which is as close as your nearest Audi OR VW dealer, will work. The dealership should have the necessary Y adapter since it's about $15-20, but may not if they're somewhat new and never had to deal with pre-ODB-II cars.
of opening sources (Score:1)
Re:of opening sources (Score:2)
Frontpage got a total rewrite to produce standards-compliant autogen code.
Outlook got a complete rewrite in terms of its behavior, security controls, integration functions, etc.
Word had a ton of new useful stuff added (machine translations between about a dozen languages, link to buy a human translation, complete dictionaries and thesauruses in several languages and texts.)
and also integrated OCR and standard-compliant document-image-write
Technically... (Score:2)
-1, Pedantic.
AEM EMS (Score:2)
It's a $2000 drop-in ECU. With completel computer control and datalogging. A geeks dream!
The thing is, t doesn't take much to control a car. Some PWM inputs and outputs, some flash, some ROM. Add some DACs and you have all the hardware you need. The EMS uses a 16/32 hybrid microcontroller. Nothing much. You basically have to adjust the PWN for fuel on throttle position and intake air volume, and throw a spark when
Re:AEM EMS (Score:2)
Try megasquirt (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Grammar do be interestin'! (Score:1, Offtopic)
There is a Frank Zappa quote that almost fits slashdot to a T...
STFU (Score:1, Troll)
How likely is it that a 15 year old Audi gets great mileage and has low emissions?
Re:STFU (Score:2, Informative)
Re:STFU (Score:1)
Re:STFU (Score:2)
Re:STFU (Score:2)
Re:Engine Swap (Score:2)
Re:in 20-30 years (Score:1)