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Linux Business The Almighty Buck Technology

What's the Worst Job Posting You've Seen? 1214

Kickstart70 asks: "Recently myself and a number of friends of mine who work or worked in IT jobs have been remarking on absolutely horrible job postings for low-level IT jobs paying small change. It seems the headhunters and employers are still wanting knowledge in everything, at least one degree but preferably two, and want to keep employees on minimal wages (in the job listing linked, the wage is in Canadian dollars). Is this common everywhere? What's the worst job posting you have seen?"
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What's the Worst Job Posting You've Seen?

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  • by hendridm ( 302246 ) * on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:49PM (#7477964) Homepage

    > WINNT is nice to have.

    Don't do it! The organization is clearly run by crazies.

    My favorite part:

    Software List: Some or all would be preferred.

    I mean, damn, $17-$19 is pretty good for Help Desk, even if it is bilingual, but anyone who is familiar with all of the items on that list should make more than God himself. Of course, the poster of this probably works for Kelly Services anyway.

  • My Own (Score:5, Funny)

    by jhouserizer ( 616566 ) * on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:49PM (#7477966) Homepage

    The worst I've seen?

    The job posting to find the person who will replace me.

  • Easy (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:50PM (#7477967)
    Poopsmith [homestarrunner.com]
  • by grub ( 11606 ) <slashdot@grub.net> on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:50PM (#7477971) Homepage Journal

    I count 163 things (well, wc -l counted it) on that list of things they want prospects to know. Obviously that job involves too much work and would interfere with reading /.

    Anyone that applies is obviously beyond geekdom and is to be pitied.
  • by LostCluster ( 625375 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:51PM (#7477972)
    The worst ones I've seen are ones that require you to have gone back in time in order to have enough experience with the software they want you to use:

    "Requirements: 5 years experience with Windows 2000..."
  • by Michael's a Jerk! ( 668185 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:51PM (#7477976) Homepage Journal
    Dear Friends,

    We have an immidiate requirement for Sr. Software Engineer for our MNC
    client from Banglore, INDIA.
    Exp: 5 - 8 Years
    Qual: B.E/B.Tech OR M.E/M.Tech
    The person must have a knowledge of the following key skills.

    - C and RISC programming
    - Software Arch. and Design Experience
    - Chip Debugging
    - VxWorks
    - pSoS
    -Device Drivers
    -ATM
    -DSL
    -System Debugging

    Please forword your Latest Resume as word document attachment.

    Thanks

    Uday.
    uday@eexcelsolutions.com
    visit: www.eexcelsolutions.com

    Please do convey your friends and pals who are looking for a better
    opportunity in in INDIA.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:51PM (#7477979)
    In 1997!
  • by t0qer ( 230538 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:54PM (#7478000) Homepage Journal
    I'm being nitpicky about your commment I know. But you're lack of understanding into the space time continium and the 4th dimension requires it.

    "Requirements: 5 years experience with Windows 2000..."


    Ok if one wanted 5 years of experience with win2k, they would need to go forward in time, to say 2005. Not backwards, because win2k was not created yet.

    Again my apologies for being a nitpick.
  • by y2imm ( 700704 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:56PM (#7478016)
    The Canadian dollar is up around 77 cents US these days.

    Oh shit, that does suck.
  • by thegrommit ( 13025 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:56PM (#7478017)
    That's less than US$29K. While one of the job requirements [workopolis.com] may be unique, it would be amusing to see how long a heterosexual male would last working there.
  • by shaitand ( 626655 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:57PM (#7478026) Journal
    I dunno, $17-$19 CANADIAN???
  • Re:My Own (Score:5, Funny)

    by Nucleon500 ( 628631 ) <tcfelker@example.com> on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:59PM (#7478051) Homepage
    Worse than that?

    Finding out you're unqualified.

  • by siskbc ( 598067 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @07:59PM (#7478054) Homepage
    I dunno, $17-$19 CANADIAN???

    ...$0.37 American these days, right? You can do better than that making shoes in Thailand.

  • Horrible (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:00PM (#7478069)

    In the Seattle Times summer 2002;

    Use your UNIX administration and Secretarial skills in our modern, fast-paced office.

    Our law office needs a part-time secretary and unix administrator. Excellent Benefits and a generous $10 per hour! Don't miss this one!

    Really, I swear! The ad ran for 5 weeks before they either gave up or got a clue.
  • Mail room (Score:5, Funny)

    by faust2097 ( 137829 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:01PM (#7478070)
    I saw a posting for mail room personnel at CNet that said "must have 2 years previous corporate mail room experience". And it wasn't for managing the thing, it was just a nomal clerk position.

    Would you want to hire someone who was either a) so uncapable that working the mail room is the peak of their abilities or b) so ambition-free that they had multiple years of mailroom experience without advancing?
  • Re:My Own (Score:5, Funny)

    by gmack ( 197796 ) <gmack@@@innerfire...net> on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:01PM (#7478071) Homepage Journal
    Yeah.. When I quit my first job in montreal after the place took a direction other than what was on the job description(they wanted to do porn and I didn't) They posted a job asking for my qualifications but expected to about $12 CDN an hour.

    One day I'm overhearing the receptionist talking to a prospective sysadmin calling for my job "well sir.. before we process your resume.. do you have a problem with porn? how about animal porn? ohh well ok then. thanks anyways"

    Glad I left? yep! That place and Ralsky deserved each other.

  • by Doug Merritt ( 3550 ) <doug AT remarque DOT org> on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:06PM (#7478115) Homepage Journal
    This was a real posting to a job list a few months ago:

    > From: Jenny Richards [mailto:..........@yahoo.com]
    > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 11:11 AM
    > To: .........@yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: [.......] Entry level programmer in Duluth, MN
    >
    > Location : Duluth, MN
    > Term : 1 year
    > Rate : $5.10 / hour
    >
    > Requirements:
    >
    > - 21+ years of J2EE Development.
    > - Fluent Sanskrit.
    > - PhD in Computer Science and 17th Century French Poetry.
    > - Must have had 4 or more products that sold 1,000,000 copies.
    > - Must be a member of the Mayflower Society.
    >
    > Locals to Duluth given preference.
    > All requirements are mandatory, so don't waste my time by sending my
    > your pathetic resume unless you're a perfect fit.

    It was real posting to a real job list, which I thought was very funny, but the poster got banned from the list for their sense of humor.

  • by HungWeiLo ( 250320 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:09PM (#7478130)
    I bet you get used to it. Two summers ago, I did web monkey work for a major university hospital, where I got look at up-close STD patient photos (in ultra high resolution taken with a 5MP camera, no less). After half a week, it wasn't such a big deal anymore. After awhile, if a friend showed up to visit me, I would point to a picture I have on the monitor, and say something like "hey look at those little mushrooms," forgetting about the outside world.
  • by acrolein ( 113485 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:10PM (#7478140)
    I once saw one that said "No Mullets, please."
  • by Jubii ( 315611 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:10PM (#7478142) Homepage
    Looking at that job posting, you could almost play a game of Bullshit Bingo [perkigoth.com] with it...
  • by siskbc ( 598067 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:13PM (#7478168) Homepage
    Actually, the Canadian dollar is rising against the USD... when I traveled to Canada last march, I got about 1.6 canadian dollars, and now it's about 1.3

    That's true, but I'm so used to heaping shit on the Canadian currency after *years* of it tanking that it's like a reflex now. ;)

    US is still up a bit over the last 10 years tho.

    Only thing about a weak dollar is it makes good German beer more expensive. Fucking Greenspan.

  • by Emperor Tiberius ( 673354 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:16PM (#7478183) Homepage
    I recall reading one for a Level III Linux system administrator. The pay wasn't too shabby, yet the requirements for employeement were sad. The position requiried you to have fifteen years of experience with Linux, and ten with Microsoft Windows 2000 Advanced Server.

    It was bad enough that they wanted MSCE certification in addition, but wanting fifteen years experience with Linux?! ROFL!

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:21PM (#7478221)
    "....unless you're talking about a complete entry
    level newb job"

    I think that describes 95% of all helpdesk jobs.
  • by Eskarel ( 565631 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:21PM (#7478223)
    Worst I ever saw was sometime last spring looking for 5 years of experience with .NET. The fact that even the eduactional version which had come out a good year or so earlier than the commercial product had not yet been out for two years didn't seem to bother them.

    I'm not even entirely sure whether they had a version of VS .NET which would compile(as in the program not stuff it created) in the spring of 1998. Ahh well, such is lunacy.

  • by HangingChad ( 677530 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:25PM (#7478263) Homepage
    ...they spell it SEQUEL instead of SQL. And you know the hiring authority didn't review the job posting.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:25PM (#7478265)
    $17-$19 dollars an hour is far above minimum wage. But minimum wage is for people who haven't heard of anything on that list. The wage is ridiculous.

    The job posting is from Edmonton. I live in Edmonton. Being bilingual IS NOT NORMAL. I know a handful of people who can fluently speak french. Geography lesson: Quebec is on the other side of the god-damned country, we hate french people here.
  • by Monkelectric ( 546685 ) <[moc.cirtceleknom] [ta] [todhsals]> on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:26PM (#7478271)
    The country of Riverside, CA government routinely posts jobs to the public which REQUIRE 3-4 years experience on their inhouse software.

    Can I complain about bad interviews to? I submitted a story about bad interviews but its been pending in the que for *6 weeks* (what does that mean?). I had an interview for qualcomm for a 1 month temp position, and the interviewer asked a bunch of jack-ass quesitons, but this one sent me over the edge "where do you see yourself in 5 years?". To this I replied, "Not working at qualcom for 4 years and 11 months!"

  • McDonalds (Score:3, Funny)

    by GreenKiwi ( 221281 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:28PM (#7478293)
    On a big billboard outside of McDonalds:
    Now hiring losers!!!
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:30PM (#7478308)
    All applicants must be bilingual French, or you need not apply.

    So just one person applying that isn't bilingual and I need not apply?! How cruel.

    What is "bilingual French" anyway - two dialects of French?

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:31PM (#7478313)
    be grateful for what you have (Score:3, Insightful)
    by egomaniac (105476) on 1:09 Saturday 15 November 2003 (#7478131)
    (http://slashdot.org/)


    I work at a dot-com company. One you've heard of, trust me.

    Don't you mean dot-org?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:31PM (#7478316)
    eww! they want you to use Microsoft products. Thta's gross.
  • by DrCode ( 95839 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:40PM (#7478413)
    Those that irked me the most were the ones with explicit version requirements, like:

    3 years with Java V1.31a7c
    2 years Swing V2.93xL
    Must have this experience on a Sun station running Solaris 5.839.

    The above is an exaggeration, but only slightly.
  • by nudicle ( 652327 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:46PM (#7478446)
    CmdrTaco does the worst job posting...
  • My Job (Score:5, Funny)

    by Jennifer E. Elaan ( 463827 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:47PM (#7478450) Homepage
    Fine... this isn't a job posting, this is an actual description of my job duties, but I'll make it look like one:

    • Senior SQL Administrator/Programmer (PostgreSQL)
    • Senior Web Applications Developer (PHP). E-Commerce experience an asset.
    • Toolchain/Plugin Developer (C/C++). Develop PostgreSQL plugins and in-house applications.
    • Senior Network Administrator on a heterogeneous FreeBSD/Linux/WindowsXP environment. Must possess strong skills in server application deployment and windows interoperability. Must possess a background in firewall and network design.
    • BCS/BEE and/or 10+ years of proven software design experience.
    • Background in cryptography is an asset.
    • Must be willing to work overtime when necessary at 1x pay.

    Benefits Package: none, contract basis, terminatable at any time without severance package
    Pay: $14 Canadian/hour

    Wait a minute... what am I doing? Is anyone looking for a developer (or hardware engineer for that matter)?

  • by Tomy ( 34647 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:48PM (#7478455)
    Worst I've ever seen was something like:


    Linux Kernel Engineer ...
    Please submit resume in MS Word format.


  • by Andy_R ( 114137 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @08:51PM (#7478468) Homepage Journal
    I have over 5 years part-time experience of Windows 2000.

    I've used it 20 hours a week from 2000 to 2003, and 20 other hours a week from 2000 to 2003.
  • Applicants must have 10 Years Windows 2000 experience or 10 Years Solaris 9 experience.
  • by jgarry ( 126205 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @09:00PM (#7478537) Homepage
    I posted this a while back, and some people thought it was too true to be funny. Others saw the humor.

    How to decode an Oracle DBA Want-Ad [google.com]
  • by WatertonMan ( 550706 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @09:04PM (#7478558)
    That was fake? Damn. I thought I had an in to get to Duluth. I met every criteria except for being local to Duluth. Of course my J2EE development was pretty rusty the first 18 years. But I do remember the days trying to do it in Basic on my old Apple //c.
  • by amuro98 ( 461673 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @09:07PM (#7478574)
    I remember looking for intern/co-op positions through my school's placement center.

    One year, a major computer hardware company came to campus looking ONLY for Ph.D students willing to do 3 month intern positions at minimum wage. Uh.... Turns out their HR department was a bit overzealous.

    Another firm was an IT contracting company. They came to campus looking for new grads with a bachelors in computer science or engineering, and 5 years IT experience... After the representative told the several people that they were wasting his time because they didn't have enough experience, he was escorted off campus and told never to return.

    I also recall a major financial institution wanted to hire CS students with 3 years of programming experience for the summer to - and I'm not making this up - *STAND INSIDE THE WALLS TO MAKE SURE THE NETWORK CABLES DIDN"T COME LOOSE OR BREAK*. The job was located in New York City, paid $5/hr, no assisted living, and you were *required* to live within 10 miles of the office. Oh yes, and you were also required to wear a suit at all times (though I have no idea how you were supposed to keep it clean standing inside crawlspaces all day long...)

    This company, too, was kicked off campus and told never to return.
  • by tigga ( 559880 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @09:08PM (#7478580)
    What is "bilingual French" anyway - two dialects of French?

    French French and Canadian French?

  • Example... (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 14, 2003 @09:09PM (#7478587)
    Well, i just got myself a job. As a graduate of a 4 year university, costing 23 tho' a year, i was jumping for joy when graduation came around. Started looking for a job..... well 8 months later, i finally found SOMETHING. In all that free time i've had, ive gotten 5 certifications:
    Net+, I-net, a+, Linux, Cisco CCNA.
    Well thankfully i finally recieved a call for an interview. Well a couple of interviews later i got the job. I'm officially called an "on the road technician." I get paid a pathetic 9 dolars an hour, because thats "as much as i can pay you."
    Well all i have to do tho is: Unix and linux administration, T1 instalation and troubleshooting, Linux router development and VPN. And i get paid 9 dolars an hour. Nice, i spend 70 thousand dolars in school expenses, to make less than 18 tho a year. My friend who barely passed High school just found a job driving armoured trucks and makes 800 dolars a week.... So, Where do i get my refund?
  • by tigga ( 559880 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @09:11PM (#7478595)
    "Requirements: 5 years experience with Windows 2000..."

    How about dogs years?

  • by Mattcelt ( 454751 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @09:12PM (#7478598)
    A good translator has real skills.

    You mean as opposed to most helpdesk techs? *grin*

    This is part of the problem here in the U.S. - companies hire lots of barely- or non-technical staff to handle the helpdesk, and they end up simply being call routers to the real techs, freeing those people from having to answer the phone.

    I've heard the helpdesk at one company I've worked with referred to as "Victoria's Secret".

    i.e., they're there purely for show and don't really support anything at all.
  • by RevMike ( 632002 ) <revMikeNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday November 14, 2003 @09:25PM (#7478670) Journal

    Karma Whore :)

    Plus, why all the <br> tags? And didn't your mommy teach you to use xhtml? Use <br /> instead.

  • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @09:35PM (#7478728)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by j-pimp ( 177072 ) <zippy1981 AT gmail DOT com> on Friday November 14, 2003 @09:38PM (#7478753) Homepage Journal
    And if you practice mopping floors enough and gain a few certifications in bleach and ajax, I'm sure you can become a mop consultant for a fortune 500 company.
  • by MadAnthony02 ( 626886 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @09:51PM (#7478834)

    was a tech support job for the forest service. The duties were typical hardware/software support, and it had the usual list of of skills - Windows, Novell, Office, virus removal, hardware troubleshooting and repair, ect. Until you got to the last one, which was something like "knowledge and experience with tree husbandry"

    Yes, I know it was the forest service, but the duties didn't mention anything tree-related, and one would imagine you could fix the computer of someone in the forest service without forestry skills. I kind of wondered if they had someone in mind they wanted to promote who had worked there, and that was their way of eliminating outsiders.

  • by ruprechtjones ( 545762 ) <ruprechtjonesNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday November 14, 2003 @10:00PM (#7478885) Homepage
    Hey! Those photos were meant for my physician's eyes only! Give them back!

    um, nevermind, move along.

  • by mcstout ( 603518 ) on Friday November 14, 2003 @10:28PM (#7479061)
    The worst I saw was from a second-tier aerospace company that expected you to basically have a PhD in databases, on in Computer Science, and a third in the new acronyms that've popped up in the last two years (e.g. 14 years experience in Mod_Perl). After two pages of acronyms and the ability to design and fabricate CPU's in your home as well as write MacOs X in Assembler without taking notes, the position requires up to 75% travel. You should be able to pick your own jobs and own a mansion at that level; but the position won't let you see your mansion for 9 months out of the year! Finally the sentance that nobody on Earth could live up to: "Only those applicants having ALL of the listed qualifications will be considered". I almost emailed the company and asked to meet the successful applicant. -Trogdor the Burninator for President
  • Re:My Own (Score:3, Funny)

    by cyberwench ( 10225 ) <tunalei@gmail.com> on Friday November 14, 2003 @10:55PM (#7479194)
    I worked at a small computer shop - builds, repairs, internet service, that kind of thing. A friend's ex-husband brought his machine in to have us install some hardware upgrades. We didn't notice anything until we left it running for a bit and came back... Lara Croft screensaver, complete with really bad amateur Japanese-tentacle-type-porn.

    Me, I'd remember that kind of stuff before I took a machine in for repair.
  • by lacrymology.com ( 583077 ) <nospam@minotaurc ... .com minus berry> on Friday November 14, 2003 @11:36PM (#7479385) Homepage
    "Taking your example above, needing to be Fluent in Sanskrit. If I apply to that job I could go the EEOC and say that the requirements are BS and I am qualified and should have been hired."

    Hell I'd pay you the $5.10/HR out of my own pocket to see your dumb ass sitting there making $5.10/HR with two PhDs.
    -m
  • by ReciprocityProject ( 668218 ) on Saturday November 15, 2003 @12:13AM (#7479541) Homepage Journal
    Excellent point!

    But the SAT isn't an IQ test.
  • by Kioti ( 593582 ) on Saturday November 15, 2003 @12:14AM (#7479544)
    Now we know how you became a CTO.
  • by ionpro ( 34327 ) on Saturday November 15, 2003 @12:35AM (#7479628) Homepage
    I'm a tier 1 tech support guy and it only took me three tries to figure out how to answer the phone! cut us some slack!

    (This is true, btw. The phones here are completely counter-intuitive on how you answer them in headset mode)
  • here it is (Score:4, Funny)

    by kuroth ( 11147 ) on Saturday November 15, 2003 @01:04AM (#7479743)
    About Us
    We're I-bought-cheesy-puffs-on-the-interweb.com, a startup Fortune 23,500,000 company with a fantastic new idea! We're going to sell home-delivered cheese puffs over the interweb!

    Project Requirements
    We'd need the sun, the moon, and the stars, as well as your first born child and a hand job. All source code must be provided, and you must assign all copyrights to us. We need this project completed within the next three hours. Contractor will be required to provide lifetime support for code base, even if we let the neighbor kid muck about in the source code (Janice says that he's a web developer, so he must be qualified. Besides, he's in the 10th grade now, we're sure he knows what he's doing).

    Contractor Requirements
    • 5-7 years of experience in developing large-scale database-driven interweb applications in whatever language we arbitrarily choose because the kid that mows the CEO's lawn says it's kewl.
    • 7-10 years of hands on experience administering FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, and Windows systems. Developer will be required to provide support for desktop users as part of his or her job.
    • 7-10 years of hands-on experience administering relational databases.
    • PhD in Computer Science
    • MCP/MCSE/OCM/OCP/ABACAB certifications. All of them.
    • Special consideration will be given to applicants who can lend us a web server until we get started.

    Compensation
    We offer a generous compensation package that includes free soda (Wednesdays only) and all the pretzels you can eat! Yay!

    We'll also give you a title! Yes, you'll be the Supervisory Director of Internet Architectural Engineering (Junior)! That's the kind if title that you can almost pay a mortgage with! Almost.

    Unfortunately, we can't offer compensation in the form of pay or benefits right now. When the interweb cheese puffs delivery service takes off, though, we'll pay you really, really well. Promise!

  • by gcaseye6677 ( 694805 ) on Saturday November 15, 2003 @02:33AM (#7480050)
    Translation: Our computer system is a complete mess. We don't even know exactly what software we are running. We're lucky if Windows even boots without errors. We need someone to take care of all of our computer needs, and to help the boys in the lumberyard when things get busy. As a bonus, the candidate would be able to communicate better than our high school dropout foreman, who wrote this job ad. Be sure to include salary history so we know who is desperate enough to work for the minimum wage that we would like to offer. And please, apply now. We can't even send out invoices until those nasty DLL conflicts are resolved.
  • by LuxFX ( 220822 ) on Saturday November 15, 2003 @03:26AM (#7480194) Homepage Journal
    I met a guy once that (claimed to at least) used ferrets for running cable. He would tie the cable to the ferret and stick him in the ceiling. Then he would open the other end and shake the food/toy/treat/whatever to get the ferret to come over. He said it worked very well.
  • by herdingcats ( 21219 ) on Saturday November 15, 2003 @09:47AM (#7480819)
    looking for a change?

    Design for the Lord! [craigslist.org]

    Time Travel Testing [craigslist.org]

    V.P. Ops Afghanistan [craigslist.org]

  • AOL skills (Score:4, Funny)

    by Adler ( 131568 ) <{exsuperhero} {at} {teenagewildlife.com}> on Saturday November 15, 2003 @01:12PM (#7481552) Homepage Journal
    i once saw, and have a screen shot of, a job ad asking for, and im not making this up "1137 A01" skills, this was for a level 1 support specialist in san diego. i stil wonder if it was a joke or not.
  • by idontgno ( 624372 ) on Saturday November 15, 2003 @01:14PM (#7481563) Journal
    Leaving aside that reference to a dead language usually implies a joke

    Hey, you insensitive clod,....

    Damn, I just realized I don't know how to say "fluent in Sanskrit" in Sanskrit. Another fine "insensitive clod" joke ruined.

  • by refactored ( 260886 ) <{zn.oc.tenx} {ta} {tneyc}> on Wednesday November 19, 2003 @08:04PM (#7515812) Homepage Journal
    ...name a country that would seriously like to attack Canada.

    Montreal.

And it should be the law: If you use the word `paradigm' without knowing what the dictionary says it means, you go to jail. No exceptions. -- David Jones

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