Rules for Teenage Internet Access? 2067
Kent Brewster writes "Despite dire warnings, we've gone ahead and put computers with Internet access into our adolescent (11, 12, and 15-year-old) childrens' rooms. We've got a nebulous set of rules, which include several like these: Keep the door open when you're on the computer. Don't quickly exit from everything when we walk past. Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing. Unfortunately we've had instances where all of these rules - especially that last one - have been broken, so now we are looking at getting more specific. We'd be very interested in hearing from both sides of the fence: parents with Net-connected progeny, and those who are chafing under their rule. Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms, what's a reasonable set of guidlines? Non-parents, what are the rules that chap your hide the worst? Do they actually make a difference in your behavior, or do you just sneak past them anyway? Finally, and this is sort of a meta-question from an exasperated dad, does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?"
Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as the "don't quickly exit from everything" rule, I think that's a bit unfair... there are plenty of legitimate reasons they might want to (emails, IMs, etc.), and even the naughtiest of children should feel they have SOME privacy. Besides, knowing that you trust them is far more important for their growth than seeing a few naked women (masturbation discovery nonwithstanding).
Re:Trust them (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Trust them (Score:4, Funny)
Except spammers of course.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
And if you're really worried about them finding bad stuff on the internet, why don't you take the slightly longer and harder route of actually educating your kids so they know why it is you would rather they didn't browse certain types of site, and let them browse them to get out the initial curiosity, and then you'll find that they won't bother because they're only interested in 'evil sites' because they're forbidden and they don't know enough about them. Forbidden + mysterious = surefire failure at what you're trying to do.
Daniel
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
While i agree that you should be able to trust your children, I see many other things from the flip side of the coin.
It IS a parents business to know what is going on in their childs life. That is nearly THE definition of an involved parent. Todays society shrugs that model but it is the parents job to help guide those *sweetheart* relationships (or to end them if needed).
KDan aparantly believes in teaching a child to do something once just to learn what it is, even when that something is wrong. I strongly disagree, and by following that logic through hopefully you will to. Example: Murdering is wrong but i should allow my child to experience it for themselves so that they *understand* murdering. Clearly that would not be good parenting. The same prinicple applies with many of the evils online (pornogrophy, violence, fostering bad relationships, etc..) A parent should not encourage these things simply so that a child knows, but rather should keep the absolute stand that they are wrong, and off limits.
KDan does make a good point about going the harder route and educating your children. It would be good to educate them on good morals, things of character and integrity rather than on bad symptoms that come from poor character and integrity.
Pornography is *evil*? (Score:5, Funny)
Pornography is evil now? Wow, I'm right up there with Saddam Hussen. But where the hell are my 70 virgins!?
Re:Pornography is *evil*? (Score:5, Funny)
and Praise Bob for that!
Re:Anal Retentive: Re:Pornography is *evil*? (Score:4, Insightful)
I do not agree. The poster was being ironic; the only people who say Hussein is evil are Bush and his cronies, usually as a backpeddling justification for murdering his kids.
In reality nobody, or at least nearly nobody, is evil. Evil in the classic movie-villain sense is "I'm bad, and I like it." It's the antagonist dressed in black and torturing, killing, and maiming because he's *evil* and that's *just what he does*.
In real life evil is harder to find. Real people generally consider themselves good. Bin Laden, for example, is clearly not evil. He is working from a dissagreeable (and one might even say faulty) perspective. Saddam Hussein is not evil, he has different priorities and (yes) different beliefs from we the observers. But I'm sure HE believes he is good and doing the right thing, at least most of the time.
The poster was saying, I think, amounts to "What I do is evil? Funny, I don't feel evil." Or something like that.
To get back on topic somewhat: Pornography is evil like Saddam is evil, which is to say it isn't. Hell, people can't even agree over whether pornograhy is *bad*, much less evil.
In no way is any of the above commentary on Islam or any religion, except where it implicitly insults all christians. Didn't catch that? That's the trouble with implicit satements...
Saddam (Score:5, Insightful)
George Bernard Shaw, IIRC said "The rational man adapts to the world, the irrational man tries to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress is dependant on irrational men". I used to love that quote. But Saddam and Bush are both irrational, and they have both changed the world. I don't know if I would call it progress.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
I plan on drinking my kid's first beers with them, and i plan on smoking the first joint with them as well. Both are very dangerous, but also quite normal and socially acceptable in moderation. similarly, it would be wise to talk openly with children about sex and sexuality (both must be done carefully of course) because if my kid is gonna be a perv, i would rather know about it than have him hide it and end up being a murderer/rapist because of pent up sexual frustration and aggression.
So what can we learn from the wonderful world of Internet Porn? Well, it turns out that everybody likes sex! Some people like it in different ways than others. Some people went through weird shit growing up, and now they get off on weird shit as adults. Who is to say what is normal and what is abnormal? As far as the kids go - you can't stop them from seeing porn. They will find it. And they will find the weirdest, nastiest shit you can imagine, far weirder than anything we were ever exposed to growing up. So your best bet is to work on building an honest, open dialog with them, and build a trusting relationship. If ya don't, your kids will still find the weird porn, but they won't be able to relate it to society, and they won't be able to bring it into the context of real people. They will hide it and keep it all inside, and that will cause much worse problems.
Trust them, listen to them, guide them (Score:4, Insightful)
I was online very early - starting with CompuServe in 1984 when we rotated back to the States. At home and a buddies house with Commodores, Tandys, and an Apple II. We hacked everything we could and yeah, ultimately got busted by the MIBs who (fortunately) just gave us a warning. ASCII pr0n wasn't exactly what the doctor ordered, so the magazine variety had to suffice. I BBSed with a bunch of other folks, met a bunch of folks online - some I met IRL, others not.
The big bad Internet is just one of a myriad of tools that people use to communicate. It's replaced the phone for most teens I know. What you do online does not necessarily reflect who you are or what you're going to be. I remember folks spewing warnings about the evil of AD&D when I was a teen, the total overcompensation for it and raid of my personal library, the destruction (at a book burning sponsored by the Catholic Church) of 2 years of gaming notes and characters and worldbuilding and books. All in the name of "protecting me" from an evil influence. I think a lot of parents act *exactly* the same way about computing and the Internet.
My parents trusted me; every now and then I betrayed that trust and did something incredibly stupid and dangerous and was punished for it if I got caught. The majority of the time I did get caught. As a general rule, I followed my parents' guidelines. I didn't consider them unreasonable. I think I turned out okay so far: love my IT job, happy with my $, happy with my friends & family.
I smoked cigarettes, I drank alcohol. It was another time (I graduated from HS in '87) and we spent my early adolescence stationed in Spain - 3 years. Alcohol was freely available, I had a lot of money (for a junior high and high school kid) from various entrepreneurial activities. My buddies and I ate breakfast in a neighborhood bar before school and had a few beers there and played video games after school. When I got back to the States I got in trouble for both smoking and drinking, but my parents blew it off - they'd rather have me drinking at home under supervision than binging at some party. I learned moderation from my Mom.
As a parent, you certainly can shape the kind of person your kid is going to be - for good and for ill. But you are not the only influence on their life and certainly in adolescence aren't the most important one - not to them anyway.
The best thing you can do is spend time with your kids; I'm not talking hours and hours of mutually boring 'hanging out' or Interrogation 101. But spend some quality time with them, even if it's just a few minutes a day, to ask how they are, how stuff is going. Not a quiz on what they're learning, but ask them about stuff they're interested in - things important to them, how they fit in at school, gauge how happy or bummed they are, etc. Don't be all judgemental or you'll lose a fragile rapport.
In other words, treat them like a human fucking being and SHOW them you respect them by listening to them. You don't have to agree with them, just *listen*. Mete out discipline as needed.
Of course, the shoe is on the other foot too.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
I plan on drinking my kid's first beers with them, and i plan on smoking the first joint with them as well. Both are very dangerous, but also quite normal and socially acceptable in moderation. similarly, it would be wise to talk openly with children about sex and sexuality (both must be done carefully of course) because if my kid is gonna be a perv, i would rather know about it than have him hide it and end up being a murderer/rapist because of pent up sexual frustration and aggression.
Your right that is a terrible analogy. My mom laid out a pack in front of me at 10... I smoked five of them... got nice and sick. Now at 33 I smoke 5 a day (after going through my stint of 15 years of a half a pack to two packs a day).
Its all about timing. At 9 years old I didn't know shit from shinola. It was a stupid age for my parents to try to keep me from doing something (especially using that lame tactic). No, I didn't smoke for another 5 years, but I got around to it because my friends were doing it, and my father did it.
That said... My kid is 6 (almost 7) and I just recently put an aged 350Mhz G4 in his room (nice 15" Apple Flat Screen (Boy, when I was your age we had 40 colums, and we LIKED it!))
The computer, much like the television, is here to stay. I for one want my kids to be comfortable using the computer from the get go. And like the television, my kids use of the computer has rules attached to it (btw, no TV in the room, just the computer... and snake... and skink... sigh.) I don't log what my kids do and I'm hoping never to need to. Parenting isn't about spying for me. Its about teaching my kids right from wrong. Making them understand boundaries they set for themselves, and ones soiciety sets for them. Rules and morals... tough fucking job... I can certainly undestand why some parents might log, even if I don't agree with it.
My kids will eventually find pornography online. But through diligent effort on mine and my wifes behalf I'm confident we can keep them from getting to it through rules and personal watchdogging until we have a chance to teach them and watch them learn about love, desire, respect, sex, and general intrapersonal relationships.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong!
Parent of 4 here, and while when I was a teenager I didn't think my parents had any business knowing anything about my private life, I've long ago learned that that view is the view of the child, not the parent.
A parent has a resposibility to be total aware of what their children are doing at all times. I don't need to know the specific CONTENT of a message, but I do need to be aware who they are chatting with, when they are doing it, and you'll better be damn sure I'll make sure that the other child's parents know it too.
We have 3 computers in my house, in public areas. If one isn't in use, any kid can jump on it, provided they've done their homework, had it checked by mom and dad, have done their chores, and haven't lost their computer priviliges for some infraction or other.
Yeah, I'm a neanderthal. I'm the worst parent in the world. My kids will be forever messed up because I make sure I know everything there is to know about their lives.
Of course, if being honor students, gifted muscicians, eagle scouts, and a 4 of the damn nicest people I've ever had the joy of knowing is "messed up" I'm also damn glad I don't take this view.
Eagle scouts? (Score:5, Funny)
That explains it. If they're Eagle Scouts, then they already see enough porn when the scoutmaster asks them to "stay after".
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
I've known them all, and honor students, giften musicians and (in Canada) Air/Army/Sea Cadets or Boy/Girl scouts get just as drunk and have just as much sex as every other teenager. You can't watch your kids all of the time, it's physically impossible, and you have to accept the fact that they WILL try drinking, they WILL have sex and chances are they will try drugs. These are just things kids do in high school, and your restrictivness and controlling attitude may actually encourage these things to happen.
It doesn't matter how nice your kids seem to you, they WILL surprise you, especially since you can't accept that they may have lives of their own.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
You need a balance between the two. And that balance can (and should) change according to the child's age.
Adolescence is a rough time (ask any parent with one). Prior to this time, the child wants firm rules. It tells them that the world has order, and gives them a base of stability with which to explore the world. But adolescence is when the child turns into an adult. They need BOTH rules and permissions. Without rules they'll disrespect you. Too strict of rules and they'll chafe under your "tyranny".
The adolescent is in the process of transferring your external rules into their own internal rules. Without them they'll wind up flailing around when they get out into the real world, which runs on rules. Too strict of rules and they'll reject them outright once they move out, and they'll still flail about trying to find their moral center.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Interesting)
When you teach a child to ride a bike, you eventually have to let go of the handlebars and let them go it alone. And they may crash, many times even. But that is life. Similarly, if you keep an omnipresent eye over everything your child does until they leave the house, how prepared do you think they will be to go it alone? Not at all.
The people I've met with overprotective parents inevitably went "wild" when they finally got to college. Those that didn't were somewhat "off", and had trouble interacting with the regular populace (and by "regular", I don't mean "party-goer").
As for me, my parents were practically negligent of my upbringing. I wouldn't suggest others treat their kids the same way, but I've turned out OK. When facing the challenges laid before me by life, such as whether to use drugs, whether to party rather than study, etc, I always knew I was on my own two feet. No one was there to catch me if I fell.
I never considered, "If I do this, what will my parents think?" They didn't really care one way or the other. Instead, I always thought, "What impact will this have on MY future?" Someone who's set about controlling another's life, whether with good intentions or bad, inevitably stands in an adversarial position to that person.
That person becomes your "enemy", whether it is spoken or not. Things become wanted and sought after not because of their intrinsic worth, but because in a struggle for freedom the child invariably "rebels" and strives to escape the shackles of the controlling environment. The child doesn't want drugs, or promiscious behavior, but really wants freedom.
Of course, this doesn't accurately portray every kid. There are plenty that pursue life's vices simply because they are bored or don't care, and get away with it because the parents are negligent. But you should keep in mind that your attempts to control your children are very likely to backfire later in life.
Kids want privacy, and freedom over their selves. Take those away, and they will hate you, whether they admit it or not.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
I have no children of my own, but I get to meet yours when they go to college. Working as a campus chaplin, I get to see the results of may different up bringings in the real world. When your 4 kids go off to college, you are not longer be able to protect your gifted eagle scout honor student. With luck they will find a good group of friends some of whom have seen a lot more of the world then an eagle scout project and the subject of which p0rn site is the best will come up over a coffee.
On the other hand I've met far to many very bright university students who spend ther first year in the dorms with a roommate who just cant wait to rush Alpha Banga Bimbo or Omega Hunka Guy. The moral delima here is whether or not to tell you, there prud of a parent, that your going to be a grandparent sooner then you thought.
I spent way more of my time then I think is good, helping college student come to grips with real world issues that should have been part of their upbringing. I spend a lot of time trying to convence emancipated eagle scouts and gifted musicicians that freedom from mom and dad means not only being able to make their own choices but having to find their own morals. For far to many there parents were far to oppressive to allow for moral development and once out of the parrents are out of the picture, young adults often experence freshman wiplash.
The good news is that most student recover by the time they get to be juniors and may even call home on the weakends their third year, just hope its not to ask for help with their kids.
JFMILLER
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Exactly right. I'm in university now but I've had a computer in my own room since I was maybe 12 or 13, although we didn't have internet access back then. My parents did a good job of impressing the right values onto me so I would be able to tell good from bad and right from wrong. Once you've got that taken care of, then you're basically coasting and it's hard for you or your kids to build up momentum in the wrong direction.
I damn well did look at pr0n out of curiosity but once the overall rush/thrill of it all gets past you, it's nothing special. Having a real girl/boyfriend is (probably*) a lot better than pr0n. I barely ever fire up the browser and get pr0n anymore because I don't have a reason to do it. And whether I like it or not I did end up having similar morals to my parents and I never, ever, did anything that was truly 'bad' related to the internet. I was never strictly supervised or watched over - it was simply good traditional parenting that set me on the right path.
Giving the kids the morals to make their own decisions is important because they have to learn how to make their own judgements and opinions. If you make all the decisions for them and control them at every turn, you'll just push them into more underground ways of doing what every teen does and probably contort their viewpoints.
So what am I trying to say? Here it is: You can and should teach them how to navigate as best you can. But only by letting them truly do it themselves will they develop conscience and maturity.
My yougest sibling has been on the internet since she was 6 or so but I know she will not get into any trouble. Our parents and I put the smarts and values into her so she doesn't act stupidly without micromanagement from others. A guiding, watchful person is necessary. Not a person who acts as a surrogate conscience and brain.
(he steps down from the pulpit)
*As a regular slashdot reader, I was obligated to add 'probably' to that sentence.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
At age 7, yes.
If you still find the need to do so at 17, you are failing to prepare them for adulthood. (Not to mention that by the time they're a teen, you're going to find that it's not possible to continually investigate every single aspect of your kid's life.)
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
Should my daughter someday learn to navigate networks undetected, I'll be a bit concerned about what sort of activities that she might be considering, knowing the possible reprocussions that are more prevalent today of those activities that provided a few chuckles for my friends and I and a bit of a headache for the phone company when I was younger. But at the same time, I will feel a measure of pride at her developing a skill that requires quite a bit of dedication, know-how, and guts to become proficient at. Just as I will concerning any skill that she might master that doesn't involve the consumption of other humans or the destruction of my toys.
What you probably meant only in jest I actually find to be a possible aspiration, since as a parent I can only provide my daughter with knowledge, rudimentary experience, and my personal interpretation of right and wrong. Only when I see what she accomplishes using her own insights and self-reliance will I truly know the quality of my parenting. If that happens to be when she turns the networking world on its head by devising a methodology of navigating any network that she can access undetected, then so be it.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
Punish curiosity, reward meekness.
Yup, those lessons will be with her for a lifetime.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
I control the router. I read the logs. When they turn 18, if they are still living in my house, we'll discuss it. Until then, what I say goes.
But if you control them until they're 18, when will they get the experience controlling themselves?
I think part of the point of adolescence is to allow them more self-control, so that they can gain practice in making their judgments for themselves, while you're still close enough at hand to be a safety net when they (inevitably) dare too much and make a misstep.
You probably taught your kids to ride bicycles. I doubt you "taught" them to ride by sitting them in a side-car attached to your bike until age 12, at which time you plopped them on a 10-speed without training wheels, expecting them not to fall just because they'd watched you balance, steer, and pedal for the last 12 years.
No, like any good parent, you got them a 3-speed, put training wheels on it, and ran behind the bike, holding the seat to balance it. And eventually they were pedaling too fast for you to hold one, so you watched them whiz away, waiting for that first skinned knee to bandage.
Rather than grep through the network logs, spend the time explaining to your kids why the values you live by are useful and effective values for them to live by. Talk about the mistakes you made, in hopes they'll more quickly recognize their future mistakes. Let your kids know that now is their chance to make mistakes, and now is when they still have the chance to come to their dad and ask for his help in correcting those mistakes.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
I am only a teen-ager myself, yet my parents put forth there rules in a way that let me scrape my knees before i hit adulthood. I needed some freedom to experience things and decide if things were right or wrong for myself, not for my parents or any other influencing person in my life. This in return gave me a respect for my parents, making me want to obey there wishes of not viewing wrong material.
I speak for myself only now, I am sure that plenty of teen-agers in the world are going to get all over me for stating these things, because if some parents read this it might influence them. But I'm stating my beliefs...after all isn't that what
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
Until age 18 I was 100% monitored and controled by my parents. This included what books I read, what games I played, where I went and with whom. Now to a point this is acceptable, however most parents who are to afraid to allow their children to use the internet are going to be much to resrictive in other areas. Essentially, I was overprotected and when it came my time to live life, I was unprepaired. It was a damn good thing that I was tech savy enough to slip online at night between 12 and 6 in the morning or else I'd have ended up REALLY screwed up. Raising...no, FORCING your children to make the decisions that you deam to be right does not help them at all. It simply denies them the chance to experience true consequence, reality and human interaction - ALL of which they will need later in life. I'm living testament to this as are my little brother and sister. How do you expect children to be capable of living on their own at age 18 unless you give them the chance to make decisions and learn about life before hand when they ARE under your wing.
As a last note - if you truly must keep them from doing something GIVE A REASON!!!
speaking from a totally sociological point of view - middle class and upper middle class parents teach their children to obey so that they can fit into similar obedient positions in life. BECAUSE I SAY SO and BECAUSE IM THE ADULT, will do them no good in the future.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
I take it you don't mind your children turning into control freaks?
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Someone would have to be a complete idiot to do most of the stuff that can get someone in trouble on the net (with the exception of filesharing, but let's face it, most people doing that are over 18). Sadly of course most people, adults and children, are completely stupid. I propose a solution to this: stop idiots having computers.
This "get out of my house if you want to do $thing" attitude has always pissed me off immensely, they *can't* get out of your house, they're not legally allowed to. Even if they were, society has gone around making age an eligibility requirement for independent living, try getting an apartment at 15 or 16, or a job. Stop acting like they have a choice.
When will people learn that children are people too, and (most) can make sensible and mature choices given the chance, definately by the time they're into double figures. If your particular 16 year old keeps sticking their fingers into electrical outlets you might want to ask yourself who's fault that is.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Interesting)
That being said, three days later, they were all over the chat rooms and the IMs. I decided to test them. We were away from the house and I created a fake AOL instant messenger screen name. I impersonated Justin Timberlake as I knew they were all fond of that crap back then. I initiated a conversation with them and within 5 minutes... 5 MINUTES, I had all their names, address, ages, and phone number. Since they didn't listen, I decided to teach them why I make the rules I make. Some may think it was a bad thing to do, but it worked for me. I "let them in" on the fact that I wasn't Justin Timberlake. I started talking about the clothes they were wearing, as I remembered what clothes they had on from earlier. I made them think that I was some kind of stalker and was watching them. They were scared shitless. They called within seconds and said that someone was outside watching them. I asked how they knew this and they tried to cover it all up. They finally told the truth and I explained what happened. They were mad at first, but a few days later, the oldest told me that they understand why I did it and the purpose for the rule. They don't give out personal info anymore.
People learn by making mistakes because there is a consequence to the mistake that they don't like. But do you want that consequence to be being raped or even killed because they told the wrong person who and where they were?? Paranoid or not, I believe that a safe child is a happy child. And no matter what you think, there are some really sick people out there.
Fair enoug (Score:5, Insightful)
I control the router. I read the logs. When they turn 18, if they are still living in my house, we'll discuss it. Until then, what I say goes.
You sound a lot like my father, though the issue of computers never came up, since I turned 18 in 1972.
I haven't spoken to him in over 30 years. Perhaps you regard this as an example of successful parenting.
Perhaps you'll succeed equally well with your kids.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
Now look here (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's a point you're missing; he's responsible for that network.
That's right... his house, his hardware, his electricity, HIS RESPONSIBILITY, including legally. The last thing I want is the RIAA/MPAA/FBI coming to my door because I gave my teen a little too much freedom on his computer. How many thousands did that little girl's mother have to pay because she was downloading music? I know you know the story I'm talking about, discussed ad nauseum here on Slashdot.
I have no problem letting my kids learn. I let them fall, skin their knees (my wife has a little trouble with this), even occasionally burn themselves, after all, the two best teachers are pain and loss of money. What I will not do is sit back while they fill their minds with stuff they may or may not be ready to handle, or while they get chatted up by some pedophile. And don't even give me that "you're just a paranoid old man" crap... Until you've done the number of sexual assault exams I have (including pediatric), you can sit down and be quiet.
My kids have met "big brother," and he is me. I'm not overprotective, just watchful. If I see them access something inappropriate, I may not say anything; I may just watch to see what they do. They best measure of your personal ethos and integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.
Once your kids have proven themselves, consider turning them loose... but trust is EARNED, folks.
Re:Now look here (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't tell me it's easier said than done. I'm 17, and I've had full access since we've had the internet. (four, five years ago.) I haven't done anything stupid yet.
It's cause my parents talk to me about it and I respect it.
Re:Now look here (Score:5, Insightful)
Having said that, if I thought we had a problem with inappropriate websites, for example, I'd put in a transparent proxy, check the logs from time to time, and block connections to really questionable sites. The younger kids would get "404 Not Found" and I'd blame the ISP... Same with filesharing, etc.
Not at all. (Score:5, Insightful)
That, my friend, is the difference between a consenting adult and a minor child. Why is there an age of consent? It's because younger children and teens generally don't have the ability, breadth of experience, or perspective to assent to certain activities. This is why slime like NAMBLA are so fundamentally wrong. A child cannot consent to activities like they advocate, because they cannot adequately appreciate and understand the ramifications of those activities.
My wife is of the same mind on this matter, by the way. I prefer to think of myself as a watchful guardian rather than a "snoop" (it's all semantics anyway). If I'm not there to help them interpret what they see, then who will be? Who will love them enough to help them understand? Who will address the tough questions with them? (and thanks to open communication and a little technology, I'll be able to anticipate some of those critical conversations).
It's all good, my young friend, and it's an absolutely beneficient effort with nothing less than their best interests at heart... A labor of love, if you will.
It would be a lot easier for me to say "sure, go ahead and do whatever the hell you want..." but I love them too much to do that. They may not appreciate it at the time (I certainly didn't), but God willing, they may eventually come to be thankful for all those hours and all that effort.
It took me until my late 20's to realize exactly how hard my parents had worked to make me a quality human being, and I feel that it's my parental obligation to return the favor with my own children.
You may disagree, of course.
Re:Not at all. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, its tough. No parent who loves their child will easily let go of the control that producing that child seems to give them (which borders on ownership in many cases). Your kids are going to do things you don't want them to. But that is the price of being a parent, and you should remember that for kids to become adults, they can't be fed double standards about responsibility, which require them to be responsible for obligations and actions but not allow them the benefits of true recognition and reasonable deference to individuality.
That is certainly how a Constitutional privacy exists, but to suggest that it 'must be earned' is to get the cart before the horse, as true adults are assumed to have privacy implicitly and it must be proven that they have potentially done wrong to violate that. And to deny your children that through nosy and intrusive snooping, whatever euphamism you use, is to demean your children in the face of their own development and to counteract your own goal of producing a responsible adult individual.
Certainly, if a child is violating a set of rules of moral conduct, it may be reasonable to place limits on their internet. But that should not be looked for, as though the child was a potential criminal. If, however, a child is violating a set of arbitrary rules in place to make the parent feel 'in control', I'm much less sympathetic to the parent. Kids may not 'be' adults, but I fail to see how denying them accepted adult human rights is going to help them become adults.
Re:Not at all. (Score:5, Insightful)
I happen to think that hands-off parents are a major problem in our society... too busy with work, too busy with social climbing, too busy period to be involved in their childrens' lives. Is that what you want? Good lord, man... just because you have a beef with your parents doesn't invalidate the parental model. I get the impression that you feel stifled and confined, and that you want to "do your own thing" as quickly as possible. That's normal... but if you're still living at home, that's probably NOT going to fly. You'll be able to go your own way soon enough, but there's delayed gratification involved. Not to be patronizing, but the sooner you learn to delay gratification, the better off you'll be.
You still haven't said what you'd put in place of me. You've done a hatchet job on me as a parent (closed-minded, indoctrinated, neurotic... it's OK, I don't take it personally), but you have utterly failed to present any sort of worthy alternative to a caring, involved parent (Who, BTW, wants nothing more than intellectually mature and well-rounded kids).
I could have chosen a mental midget as a life's mate... someone I could dominate and would always agree with me.. but my wife is a terminally-degreed professional who can more than hold her own in a discussion. Ever date a woman who's beautiful, but a complete moron? I have, and holy smokes, talk about painful. My most feverent hope is that my kids are able to hold their own in a discussion, defend what they believe, and say "no" with conviction and authority.
I'm not interested in raising robots. Hell, if I wanted a family of those, I'd go buy a bunch of Aibos.
Fair enough (Score:4, Informative)
It's about earning trust. Reliability has to be proven and established, preferably via some kind of track record, or trial period (one the child may or may not know about). Give them one warning, just to let them know you are watching, then lower the boom, and for God's sake FOLLOW THROUGH.
Consider the alternatives...
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Trust them (Score:4, Funny)
Thank god most kids don't think like you.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
As a parent I always considered it my duty to raise them to be adults. Have ever told your kid, "Act your age"? If so, didn't you mean "Act more mature"?
Well, then you have to teach them maturity, not childhood. Responsibility and self control, not outside control of their every movement. With maturity comes things you might not like. If your kids are past the age of puberty they are sexually mature, whether you are comfortable with that idea or not. They are going to act like they are sexually mature. They are also begining to think of themselves as themselves and not as your children. Help them to do so in a mature and reponsible manner.
Then you'll have to get out of the way. They'll make mistakes. Sometimes bad ones. Be there for them instead of flying off the handle. Don't think that if you just locked them up tighter the mistakes wouldn't have been made. They'll just be delayed until they're out there on their own without you to support them.
Isn't it a better idea to teach them how to deal with these issues in a mature fashion rather than try to deny that these things exist?
Then you're going to wonder why they go to college and go completely off the frickin' wall drinking, screwing and otherwise acting like children out of control.
Well, it's because you raised them to do that. You set them up for it.
The issue isn't so much how to control your kids, but how to control yourself to raise your kids as adults, not kids. Ultimately they are going to control themselves no matter what you do.
Think about it.
KFG
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a recently-on-my-own "new Adult". I'm 19, and I'm a freshman in college. My parents were of the more relaxed "he can make his own mistakes" variety, and I'm incredibly thankful for it. If you don't let them -learn- maturity, they'll never have it. Then they'll be 19 and a freshman in college... and they won't know why it's bad to drink in excess 4 or 5 days a week. Trust me, I see it all around me. Adults acting like children.
Re:Trust them (Score:5, Informative)
Well, I find that being able to outsmart one's parents definitely provides a measure of privacy. Here's a few steps you can follow at home, kids (don't forget NOT to ask Mom and Dad's permission):
1. If you have your own computer, install Linux. If your parents have ties to the NSA, better make that OpenBSD instead. The fact is that, unless one of your parents has a beer gut, wears t-shirts with slacks, and hasn't groomed their beard in a couple of decades, they don't know how to use UNIX. You could leave it logged in as root all the time, and they probably wouldn't know what the hell was going on (not that I'm suggesting you do that. Use strong passwords!).
2. Encrypt your data. You can do this on your own machine or the family one, doesn't matter. GPG is available for Windows, Mac, and loads of Unices. It's also a simple, unobtrusive command-line tool that you can use to pretty well scramble anything.
3. Hide your files. On UNIX machines where you have root, chown them to root, then put them in a directory that only root can read (su to retrieve them). If you don't have root on a UNIX box, at least give them the standard '.' prefix. In windows, I recommend tacking on a ".sys" extension and hiding them somewhere in the C:\WINDOWS tree. As far as Macs go, just use the ol' unix '.' trick, and Finder will be none the wiser (I think, I don't have a Mac to test this on).
4. Browse anonymously. Back when anonymizer was free, it was a great solution. Nowadays, you'll probably need a friend to set up a server in a safe, uncensored environment. I recommend school buddies with apathetic/permissive/hippie/workaholic parents, as this lessens the likelyhood that you'll run into trouble. A dedicated *nix server with a simple redirector CGI would be nice, but for all the legions of windows users out there, this [peacefire.org] would appear to be an excellent option.
5. Cover your tracks. Clear browser history. On Windows, clear the list of recently accessed documents. If you have root on a UNIX box, flush the logs.
6. Encrypt transfers. Enigmail for mozilla and the encryption plugin for gaim are your friends.
7. Make your data look innocuous. Chatting with some friends on IM? Why not chat in Arabic (if you're on an unecrypted connection, be aware that this method reduces the possibility for parental-snooping, but increases the likelyhood of unconstitutional racial profiling. You've been warned). If you don't have the time or inclination to learn a foreign language, at least learn ROT-13. ROT-13 is so simple that, after a few weeks of practice, the overhead for conversing in it online gets to be pretty low. Keep in mind that it's by no means secure, but it prevents parents from catching naughty words with their peripheral vision. If your friends aren't as "safety-conscious" as you, you can probably write a quick script to do ROT-13 on the fly to incoming messages. Learning to do RSA in your head would be truly impressive (I can do it with small keys with pen and paper, but nothing's stopping you short of the computational limit of the human brain)
The moral of this story is that clever children can cheat their way out of a lot of parental and societal rules. When I was living at home, I used some of the methods above to keep certain data safe (e.g. IMs with my girlfriend), but curiously, I didn't use it to browse porn and the like. The reason? My parents didn't constantly snoop to make sure I wasn't breaking the rules, they just raised me with the conviction that sexual intimacy is a beautiful thing between two people, and that commercial exploitation cheapens that, and they trusted me to make the right choices when they weren't around. If you never give your kids a chance to make bad decisions, they'll never learn how to make good ones.
My 2 cents as an older brother... (Score:4, Insightful)
Observing my siblings and their friends grow up I have noticed something - stricter parenting doesn't make children misbehave less, it just makes them better at lying. You have two options -
Which one all depends on how street-wise you think your kids are. If you think that they are going get influenced by what they see or talk to the wrong people (like paedophiles or Irish people), the dangers are too great so you have to restrict them. If you are just simply uncomfortable with them seeing inappropriate images, bear in mind they'll see them elsewhere if not at home, so what's the point in stopping them?
Age apropriate rules are the key (Score:5, Insightful)
Teach your kids that "don't talk to strangers" applies online as well. (Oh, and be sure to tell them what a stranger is. When I was a child I met a girl who though "Stranger" was simply a synonym "pedophile". I told her it meant anyone she didn't know and she didn't believe me).
Definitely tell them not to ever give out their email address, or download software (probably don't want to give them admin access, unless they are a geek, in which case you should give them a Linux machine
But you have to be age appropriate as well. Something like the stileproject could seriously warp a little kid. Or at least it seems like it could, I'm not a psychologist.
Re:Age apropriate rules are the key (Score:4, Funny)
Instant message me when you have teenage daughters please.
Re:My 2 cents as an older brother... (Score:4, Informative)
I am forever in their debt for being willing to help me back onto my feet when I know, in hindsight, I didn't deserve it, having totally ignored the benefits of their wisdom that they acquired having lived on this planet for 3 decades before I came along.
How were they punished when they broke the rules? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How were they punished when they broke the rule (Score:5, Insightful)
To add to the parent poster: Most would agree that there are dangers to the internet, which your rules are there to protect. When those rules are broken, you should have a pre-set plan of consequences. On the part of the child the punishment is a deterent, but you must be strong enough to cary through so that they can also learn from the experience of breaking the rule. I can not stress enough that you should not cave to their 'needs' and be afraid of taking the computer away as punishment.
With your rules it would seem logical that removing the computer (or internet connection) would be a fair punishment.
As the old saying goes: Spare the Rod, Spoil the child. The older I get (I am only 22 now) the more truth I see in that
Privacy Invading Software (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Privacy Invading Software (Score:4, Insightful)
First, you have to make a distinction between erotica and pornography. Catching your kid reading Playboy is a much different thing than catching him reading a hardcore gay S&M mag. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning homosexuality, kinky sex, or explicit depictions, but combine the three in an adolescent, and a loud klaxon should be going off in the worry center of your brain.
Another distinction that needs to be made is between curiosity and voyeurism. Children in the throes of hormone overload are going to be curious. But if depictions of sexual acts are the only way they can masturbate, they've got some issues.
But the above are really minor issues. The big problem with pornography is much subtler. It's the depiction of women as objects and sex as casual recreation. (this isn't limited to pornography, as we all know). A little exposure to pornography isn't going to harm your child. A lot of exposure, however, is going to teach them lessons you might not want taught.
Re:Privacy Invading Software (Score:5, Insightful)
sex isn't dirty.
actually it's quite nice.
i'm not a hundred percent sure, but there's some pretty good evidence that sex is what we were designed to do. that's why normal male humans don't normally go very long without thinking about sex. i believe it's often referred to as "survival", and sex is how we do the whole "survival" thing.
for those of you who really think that sex is "dirty", you need to see a therapist, seriously. that's a very unhealthy attitude, and it could very well cause some serious problems.
Re:Privacy Invading Software (Score:4, Insightful)
However, that does kinda enter the equation somewhere...
Half of the fun of being with someone is purely abstract and emotional.
The other half is purely physical.
Like most things, a balance gives you the best all round view of things. A rigid adherance to a particular view only prevents you seeing things that may be of use.
However, if you're happy with missing out on a particular view of life, then, nobody should try and force you into an uncomfortable position about it.
Porn and the various texts on sex (which have been around since time immemorial, Kama Sutra et. al.) help provide pointers, and commentaries on experience that are designed to heighten the physical pleasure you experience with a partner.
How you choose to maintain a partner (be it on an hourly paid, nightly stand, weekly fling, or lifetime of marriage) is part of the emotional side.
Personally, I'd prefer the lifetime bit. Gives you time to really get to know how to push someone's buttons,and the other way round (for the better). However, it rarely works on the first try.
I do kind of take exception to calling them 'Dirty Images' though.
Unless of course, they're actually physically stained.
Smutty, sure. Erotic, absolutely.
I've read my share of Porn in my time, and not one gal that I've ever dated has come away with the idea that she's merely been an 'object'.
And none of them were.
I see no value in your premise that reading Porn devalues people. Only emotional conditioning can do that. And that's completely independant of any pictures/videos you may watch.
What it DOES desensitise you to though, is the taboo surrounding sex, and makes you more able to function without blushing in conversations about it (trust me, I still do to this day sometimes!).
Porn is sex. Pure and simple, with the element of emotion removed.
Just as old romance novels are emotion, pure and simple, with all sex and physical removed.
Opposite ends of the spectrum.
somewhere in the middle, with a knowledge of both sides of the coin, I think you have a chance for a truly deep and meaningful, and highly physically active life.
As a note, to make this relevant to the main topic.. Teach your kids that people think and feel the same way they do. They're not alone, and neither is the world there merely to be their toy to be used and thrown away.
Basically, be a good, old fashioned parent. Do your best for them in whatever way you can.
Firm but fair.
And teach them to think for themselves.
Once you do that, they'll be a LOT safer when they do get alone on the net, in the street, or anywhere, as they inevitably will.
And try not to think of this as anything new. for generations, parents have been trying to find ways of stopping children seeing or doing things they don't want them to..
Libraries, and bookstands, and holes to peep through have been around for just as long, and kids will be curious..
Parenting isn't a cut and dry thing. It's the one thing your parents never taught you, but one of the things they gave you a pattern to work with.
You sound a decent kinda person, to even be asking these questions..
So why not treat your kids in the same manner your folks treated you, when you went skulking around, and trying to do things behind your folks back without them knowing?
Can't touch me (Score:4, Funny)
Heh (Score:4, Funny)
Might be an interesting contest... I'm kind of tickled by the thought... bring it on.
lying (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes.
Re:lying (Score:5, Funny)
Re:lying (Score:4, Insightful)
Really. You may even know some of them.
So, not everybody.
Dave
This seems simple... (Score:4, Insightful)
Block Yahoo news (Score:5, Funny)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=
Re:Block Yahoo news (Score:4, Funny)
Now if someome would just mod it up as funny, many more slashdoters can enjoy Portman nude.
First. (Score:5, Funny)
Do not let them have access to the internet. With that in mind, if you do let them have access to the internet, only allow port 80. And only let them have access to Yahoo! Kids. Do not under ANY circumstances give them access to IRC. IRC is by far the root of all evil.
If you are going to give them access to the internet, make sure to stick their computer behind 4 bridges, and a NAT. Filter everything that you could possibly do. In all cases, do NOT let them have access to the internet if at all possible.
Snoop on your kids, msgsnarf is your friend. Firewall logs and snort also help you filter out porn traffic.
In essence, do NOT trust your kids. They will break your trust, it has been proven time and time again. I do not remember the last time I listened to my Dad, uh yeah.. haha.
In his case, I just make sure his computer doesn't get infected with more then 10 viruses. Although he is actually a computer teacher, but that doesn't mean he knows anything about computers..
Don't put the computers in their rooms (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're that freaked out, why not put all the computers in a "family computer lab"? Is it that painful for you to actually spend time in the same room as your kids?
I mean seriously, putting the TV, computer, etc in the kids room means the kid will spend all their time in their room alone, away from the rest of the family. Put all the entertainment devices in the same place, and you'll find yourselves actually spending time together. That's certainly what I plan on doing when I have kids (which should hopefully be quite a while from now
w.r.t your paranoia. There's a lot of fucked up stuff on the internet, and your kids will eventually see it anyway. I wouldn't want small children to see that stuff but the stileproject isn't going to turn a 15 year old into a psychopath.
But anyway, my solution still solves your problem. So do it.
Re:Don't put the computers in their rooms (Score:5, Funny)
And don't let them view slashdot.
Squid is your friend (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, I think that they deserve a reasonable amount of privacy, but you wouldn't let them hit the town without at least knowing where they're going, would you?
and now I'm an internet ninja (Score:5, Funny)
Re:and now I'm an internet ninja (Score:4, Informative)
Oh right. Like you weren't the least bit curious
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Double Standard (Score:5, Insightful)
See, it all boils down to the fact that the internet is just like any other information medium, be it the library, the video shop w/ an "adult" section in back, or Pigsty, the dirty little kid who hangs out on the playground singing "milk milk lemonade..." That is to say, you'll never be able to keep it in check. It is outside of your sphere of influence.
What can you do? Prepare your kids for what they may run into. Give them feedback and guidance on how to deal with certain situations. Tell them what is appropriate and what is not. After that, its all up to them. As it should be. Humans need practice making decisions for themselves and not having everything honed down, toned down, and spoon fed to them. To do so is a disservice to both the human spirit, and your children's ability to function and think on a level that you may not be comfortable with.
The fact is, you can't protect them. You can only help guide and instruct them.
And if its really such a big deal, take the computer away and be a mean parent. They'll forgive you eventually, and its probably for the best anyway. Its not like its the end of the world, and there's no need for you to cave just cuz Johnny S and Susie Q have computers in their rooms.
Anyway, its all about the trust, man. Trust that your kids know what they're doing and if it gets out of hand, offer help and advice instead of anger and retribution. We get enough of that from The Christain God.
---
My daughters are ages 14, 12, and 8... (Score:5, Insightful)
Since she's sitting next to me, playing Diablo 2, I asked my 14-year-old daughter about her net access.
"I find little weird web sites, I look at them," she says. "When I close the [browser] window, it's just an automatic reaction to parents in the room, a matter of privacy."
Yes, I've caught my eldest daughter reading disturbing web sites -- CNN, Christian fundamentalists, anime, Slashdot. Lord knows, she's found some very strange online comics. She asks the most damnable questions sometimes -- and that's just fine with me.
I can't teach my daughters to respect my privacy by snooping in her activities. I trust my kids. They know their parents trust them, and that they can come to us with any question; we know what they are doing, where, and with who, not because we dictate, but because our kids want us involved in their life.
Don't worry about teenagers, just little kids (Score:5, Insightful)
You need to give them the tools to make good choices: self-respect, self knowledge, curiosity, empathy, fairness, and the other strengths of responsible adulthood. And if they have a healthy amount of curiosity and are not malformed, OF COURSE they'll be fascinated by porn. Weren't you? Like the other poster said, isn't that what the Internet is for?
Little kids are another story, of course. They are still assembling their tool kits. You need to guide them through the discovery of life's seamier chapters. But fortunately, little kids won't know how to circumvent firewalls, and they don't need computers in their rooms. You have a few years to get them ready. And what they need from you has nothing to do with technology.
So I laugh at the folks who are aghast at their 16 year old kids running Grand Theft Auto Vice City. But I shudder at my friends who bought it for their ten-year-old son. WTF?
Childs Internet Access (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Childs Internet Access (Score:4, Funny)
As any good Christian would.
Re:Childs Internet Access (Score:5, Insightful)
Guess what, no matter how much you know about computers, your kid will be able to see it if he wants to, he just has to go to a library or a friends house. Do you WANT your kid to grow up socially handicapped? I mean, for gods sake, what is the problem with a 16 year old looking at porn? He's gotta have SOMETHING to masturbate to. Unless that is something you feel you need to shame him into not doing either.
Re:Childs Internet Access (Score:5, Insightful)
Nothing will stop a 16 year old from viewing porn like having to face dad for an open and frank discussion that starts out as "so son, notice you've been looking at a lot of sex pages..Do you think all women are like that?? I noticed you were spending most of your time on pages where the women were doing X. Why is that ?? "
If you can't trust your 16 year old son (who is probably already well aware of things like "X") to make up his own mind about that kind of shit, and instead willfully associate fear and/or shame with sex
Perhaps you should be more worried about things that are important -- hard drugs for example -- instead of pulling a headfuck on your child with regard to something that is pretty common and healthy in adult (and - god forbid - teenage) life. But then, this is slashdot. No Sex Here.
Do you really distrust your own kids that much?
Re:Childs Internet Access (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Childs Internet Access (Score:4, Interesting)
And nothing will give a 16 year old a complex about sex like that, either. Trying to discourage any sort of behavior through needless embarassment will do just that: needlessly embarass him. If you really are enough of an uptight, sexually repressed parent that you absolutely forbid that a teenage boy be interested in sex or women, well, good luck with that. Either your son will turn out gay, be afraid of sex and women, or become a sexual freak (weird/disgusting fetishes and whatnot).
What is your goal here? (Score:5, Insightful)
If I were you, I'd just use some kind URL sniffer on, and check to make sure they wern't looking at anything really weird.
Simplest rules: (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Simplest rules: (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with all your points except the one I quoted. Why should your child have to be willing to converse about masturbation with you? It is a very personal, private thing for many people. I certainly would never talk to my parents about it, nor do I feel I should have to. It is called PRIVACY. Also, what if your child had a social/mental issue that they wanted to handle themselves and didn't want you involved in? What if it was between them and another friend? Do you feel you are privy to that information?
Kids who grow up in families where they are allowed no privacy become very good at creating their own, in whatever way they can.
Your behavior says it all (Score:4, Insightful)
Point two; I dont want to sound demeaning but parents such as yourself who set rules on things they have little to no control over end up having children who lie to your face. They end up at Billy's house using the internet to talk to some pedophile. Something you could of had control over if it wasn't for the gestapo rules as it would of been in the open. So instead of saying listen, talking to X people over the internet isn't cool and having a positive discussion with your child. You simply have no idea what's going on. Your child ends up on the run with some pedophile in Mexico and you are wondering what happened.
With children I think that the best thing is to simply let them know is that just like anywhere else the Internet is a public place. Just like I will teach my child not to talk to strangers, I'll teach them not to talk to strangers on the internet. At least not in a personal non-academic way and when they are old enough to make the decision that they feel they can do what they want, then thats their choice. However rules like "keep the door open" while on the internet will do nothing for you. Your major mistake is believing that your rules will stop a curious child, they won't. Instead of being a rule gestapo, explain to your children the positives and negatives, tell them what they need to hear so that they can expect certain things and already be alert.
Lastly, be parents. I think the problem today is that alot of parents think that setting "rules" is all they need to do when in reality understanding their children and inquiring about their lives is what parenting is all about. Teach your children, rules mean nothing if they don't know how to handle life like situations. The internet isn't the mistake, public schools aren't the mistake, life situations aren't mistakes. Stop blaming society or the internet or whatever because simply, they are here and everything has problems. It's how your child conceptualizes the problems, issues and general life situations they will have to deal with on daily basis that will determine if you are a parent, or simply a care taker. That choice is truly the parents, and the behavior of the child is truly reflective upon them. My mom used to say, "the smartest children aren't just the ones that can win spelling bee's, or get straight A's. They are usually the ones who can tell if you're bullshitting or not and have toyed with you just to get to see you cards." I guarantee you, your kids can't call a bluff, you've never even explained to them what a bluff looks like.
Heh, I think i'll call my mom now and thank her. She really prepared me for life, not just tell me to follow rules.
Proxy them and log their traffic (Score:5, Interesting)
And don't give me lip about not trusting my kids...I trust my kids with my life. It's the million other perverts who would lure them to the local Motel 6 that I don't trust. Children, even teenagers, need guidance and need their parents to keep an eye on them and prevent them from getting into potentially dangerous situations. In my case, I do that by occassionally snooping on their communications. Considering that I've already caught my nine year old daughter posing as a 13 year old, AND caught a local high school kid propositioning her, you'll have a heck of a time convincing me that monitoring is a BAD thing.
Start the policies before they start walking... (Score:5, Informative)
Let me get back to the topic: Start young with teaching children what is appropriate and inappropriate. (For the parents with teens, it may not be too late to start, but it will be tough if you have to convince you child that certain clothes he/she has been wearing for two years are now inappropriate.) Is it easy to discuss this with children? It shouldn;t be hard.
Let me use a personal example: My son, at the time was age 9, went to spend the night at a friends house. While there they watched an austin powers movie. This came out in conversation a couple of days later. My wife and I were horrified that this happened, but we didn;t yell and hoot and holler. We asked about the movie and he told us about it (We had seen this movie a couple of years before at a friends house (Strange how things work out)) During this conversation we talked about attitudes toward women and sexuality. And we talked about whe we found certain things objectionable. But it wasn't a lecture. we were having a conversation and he understood why it was inapproriate when we had finished.
You may say, "Bah, kids can't handle that kind of talk." Well, you'd be suprised. It you are honest and open with your children in ALL areas, they will learn and respond in this type of conversational enviornment. A few months ago, My son was at an overnight with a few friends and a movie was going to be shown. He asked what it was rated and got a couple of friends to go into another room and play cards (or a board game, I can;t remember. He's in bed now, or I would ask him). But I think that takes some maturity. Maturity that comes from learning how to think along the lines of what is appropriate and what is not.
How does one get to a point where we can trust the kids to make good choices? As parents we should make good choices ourselves and explain these to the kids. Dinner is a great time for these discussions. And whenver something comes up, don;t hide it from the kids. Let them in one what is happeneing. Another example: A student from where I teach was kicked out of his house. We let him stay with use for a bit while things got straightened out. My children were, of course very curious about what was going on, and we told them about the neglect, abuse, and everything going on. My children were very welcoming and treated this person as a brother fot the time he was here. Since then, my son has volunteered his time at some charities in the area for other "transients."
Again, bak to the topic: In the manner of the internet, as with all areas, be open and honest. When you are deleting spam from your email, there is a great learning experience for the kids. "Look at this junk. Enlarge your breasts..." and get into a discussion about the previlence of sexual attitudes in society. It works, kids listen, and they will understand. Yesterday, When I was playing my father-in-law on some online chess and my kids were helping out, I got an offer across AIM (Through trillian) to check out some girls webcam. (Yea right.) Well what a great learning experience about the inappropriateness of the internet. We even went to the link, and sure enough, it was filtered out.
which leads me to...
Don;t let children surf without proper filtering. All of our computers run through an E-Smith server [e-smith.org] (modified red-hat small office gateway and server) which runs an excellent free SquidGuard filter. This doesn't mean that you don;t t
What exactly are you worried about? (Score:4, Insightful)
Wake up! (Score:5, Insightful)
No. I mean, not too often. Well, sometimes. Okay, fine, I'm not really 6'4", fabulously wealthy, and have a 9 inch cock. Under my red mini-skirt. Which I wear when I pick up hot 18-year old sluts who will do anything for money!
Now that I've gotten my smart-assedness out of my system, I think it's time you looked at the basics of human development.
Kids grow. In doing so, they will expect their own privacy and freedom. With that goes responsibility. Would you let your 11 year old go to a party unsupervised? Probably not. Would you let your 15 year old? Well, judging from your attitude, probably not. I would. As long as your kids are getting good grades and have their shit pretty much together, let them do their own thing. If they want money from you, make them mow the yard. If they want a ride, tell them to clean up their room first. If they choose to walk rather than that, don't bitch at them. It's their choice. You need to slowly relax the reins, so that when they are 18 and go off to college, they have the skills and maturity to adjust, rather than just going "Woo-hoo! I don't have to listen to anyone anymore! I'm gonna fuckin' party". That's a big part of the problem. If you think your kids aren't interested in sex, intoxicants ( drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, whatever ), bands, parties, etc., you're wrong. Weren't you? It's a matter of degrees, and knowing what is healthy.
And doesn't it strike you as odd that your child feel the need to lie to you? My personal experience has been that it's easier to tell the truth, so I don't waste time lying unless it's worth it. Ex. : if you could just tell a cop : "Look I busted my headlight last week, but I haven't had time to replace it" and he just gave you a warning, would you feel the need to to tell him you hadn't noticed it, someone must have hit your car in the parking lot? I wouldn't bother if I could, but is telling the truth worth the hassle of going to court and paying a fine? Not in my books, because whether the cop believes my lie or not, noone is hurt ( except for maybe the county, who is deprived of a $150 that they could waste as well as my tax dollars are ).
A computer is a tool. Internet access is a problematic tool, because it's a gateway to so much. What are you really worried about? Kids looking at porn? What, and you never looked at porn? Never masturbated? If you say no, you're full of shit. Being exposed to violence/hateful themes, etc? That's around kids every day. Same for drugs. So, unless I'm missing something, the only thing that kids are exposed to on the internet that isn't around regularly, are sexual predators. And those are there in the real world too. Basically, the only thing I would be worried about are the people that they might interact with online. But if you haven't explained to them that are people in the world that would like to hurt them, and that they need to be careful in who they trust, then they're not equipped to walk down to the cornerstore, let alone do anything else.
So the same basics that apply to the real world apply online. And please don't rob your children of a chance to mature in a healthy, human, responsible manner. If you're going to worry about anything, get on them about their grades, try to interest them in science, art, nature, etc.
If they want to look at pictures of naked chicks, or read about guns, drugs, whatever, don't sweat it. ( hell, the eleven year old is probably just looking up pictures of guy/girl he/she thinks is cute/smart/cool/whatever and doesn't want dad to know because he/she's embarrassed ). In my opinion, expose children to the world, let them read, talk to them, and most of all : tell and show them what you think, and then let them make up their own minds.
Trust but Verify (Score:4, Funny)
Likewise, good parents generally are the product of a good example, even if they aren't perfect and morally pure as the driven snow. Good parents generally trust their children, but also remember what it was like when they were kids themselves, and will use that knowledge to verify that their own kids aren't doing things that might endanger them.
Yes, I trust my sons, but it's not blind trust. They know that I will come into the room unannounced, and that I will want to know who they're chatting with, who they're exchanging e-mail with, and so on. They know why I'll do this.
BTW, on a lark, I posed as an older female one time to chat with my son and one of his friends. It was enlightening (to say the least) some of the language I saw. I offered to "teach them a lesson. They eagerly agreed. My lesson?
"Never
Never
Never
chat the way you have here, unless you are certain you know who you're talking to. This is your dad. Go to bed."
I pointed out that I could have been a nutcase (which I am), or worse, the father of my son's girlfriend. I pointed out that my son would've never seen her again if it had been her father posing as this older female.
Open door where the computer is? Check.
Unannounced walk-ins? Check.
Same rules for dad as the sons? Check.
Trust my sons? Check
Verify that they're being honest with me? Absolutely.
Tim
As a parent (Score:4, Interesting)
I've implemented reasonably good filtering of email (both her domain and my own) via SpamAssassin, so spam is extremely rare - porn spam has been non-existent. My daughter does not have the ability to change the SpamAssassin settings. All email attachments are scanned for virus by the mail server (clamav). Some file attachment types are refused completely (exe, scr, and other dangerous types).
I will NEVER EVER use any type of content blocking software such as NetNanny. They don't work, they are politically motivated, and they are complete shit.
Rob Them of the Right to Rebellion (Score:4, Insightful)
Let me jump in, then
So my parents robbed me of my Human Right to Rebellion. Any time I tried something "forbidden," they merely co-opted it, and took the thrill out of it.
Starting with building fires (as an eight year old), I was given full permission to build fires, with a few constraints. Dad taught me how to kindle a good blaze with only a single match and twigs. While I wasn't strictly forbidden from using paper, lighter fluid, plastic, or candles, they were regarded as being beneath contempt. I wasn't going to stoop to that level. Not even to shock my parents. Well, with all that, I had to give up my dream of becoming an arsonist.
So I got caught sneaking some wine a few years later. So Dad split a beer with me. Not long after, he mixed up some martinis. Did I want to drink? OK. I could, but it had to be at home, or I had to promise to call for a ride home if I were somewhere else. That was much too reasonable to rebel against, and, to this day, I have failed to be an alcoholic.
Then I wanted to stay out late with friends, or on a date, or something. This was the clincher -- I knew they couldn't come up with a reasonable way of relinquishing control. But they did. OK. I could do it. They were counting on me to be responsible, not get arrested, not get anyone pregnant, not get in trouble. But if I did, I shouldn't hesistate to call on them, and they'd pay my bail, rescue me, or do what they could to help out. Damn! Defeated again.
Then again, I had a college friend whose father used to beat him with a heavy oak dowell anytime he ever broke a rule. Now there was a kid who didn't know the meaning of "limits" when it came to drinking, smoking dope, and getting in trouble. Still, he got it out his system, and today we're pretty much both responsible (hah!) citizens. So ya never know.
There isn't anyhting they need protecting from. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now that I'm in my 30's I've come to realize that the motivation that drives parents and society itself to engage in information control and censorship is not that any young people will be harmed by the things we hide from them, but that we are somehow uncomfortable with the idea of them seeing certain things. The whole protection bit is just a post-hoc justification.
The truth is that surfing the web is about as safe an activity as can be imagined. The real dangers lie outside in the real world, not in cyberspace. Now to be fair there are predators online, both sexual and financial. But if you haven't seen to it that your kid is street smart enough to identify and avoid them then you're just a piss-poor parent.
If you feel uncomfortable about the idea that your children might see certain things online then maybe you should investigate why you feel that way, because it sure as hell isn't because they're going to be damaged in some way from seeing it. A person would have to be force-fed something on a continual basis for an extended period for it to have an effect upon them.
Young people are human beings, not tape recorders and not pets with the power of speech. Their view of the world is formed from the conclusions they reach based upon the sum total of their experiences. The only real difference is in how much experience they have to draw from. By the time they are old enough to know how to use a computer, the basic nature of who they are is already in place. By the time they're teenagers they're basically as grown as someone can be without having been out on their own. There is not special transformation which takes place on the eve of their 18th (or 21st, or you name it) birthday whereby they are suddenly transformed from being an malleable infant into a mature adult.
I'm starting to ramble here. Really what I'm trying to say is that there isn't anything you need to protect your children from seeing or hearing because none of it is going to affect them in any special way. Also it isn't like you can protect them from the things you don't want them to find out about unless you lock them in a closet, and if you think that is a good idea please get psychiatric help soon.
Childhood is more of a cultural construct than anything else, at least how childhood is understood in our culture. The lies and deceit that children have to deal with is nothing short of criminal. I don't know about you, but I didn't much like being lied to when I was a kid. What made it worse is that the lies that are told are so pathetically transparent that I'm amazed anyone is fooled. I kept thinking that there must be something I was missing, some piece in the puzzle that would make the things I was being told make sense. It wasn't until I realized that most people were idiots that I understood that the way children are treated is simply an extension of that stupidity.
Lee
Treat your children like human beings (Score:5, Insightful)
1.Talk to them. It sound so simple, doesn't it? But is it? We all know as adults just how difficult the modern world is and how litttle time we have, but that overdone cliche about spending quality time with your children is damn important. Controlling your kids too much will make them fear you and lose your trust. Show them that you love them and are interested in their lives. Make them feel like home is a place of warmth and saftey and that you will protect them with everything you've got.
2.Treat them like real human beings. There are so many guides that advocate rules and strict parenting, but neglect the fact that your children are real human beings with their own personalities and feelings. Treating them with respect (privacy is important for them too) will help them when the time comes on the internet that some sicko doesn't treat them with respect.
3.Have a set of rules about what you can and will accept. This might seem paradoxial to what I said above, but it isn't. If you explain to your children why you set those rules instead of just being the parental nazi, they will be more likely to follow them. Having rules is important, very important, in that it shows children to realise and know what other people's limits are i.e. they realise as well that you are in fact a real person.
4.Never break their trust. This can be damn difficult, but it is damn important. Don't be too harsh if they break a rule or do something stupid. Show them you're angry or worried (yell if you need to, penalise them in a SMALL way if need be i.e. one week no internet or extra task around the house) but don't leave it at that. Talk to them afterward to show you're still interested. Learn to forgive your kids for breaking rules, and show them that it's ok. We all know how difficult and unforgiving life and society are. They don't need that at home as well, because then there's no difference between home and the wild for them.
My Advice (Score:5, Insightful)
By this I mean two simple things: most slashdot folks are likely 16 through 27 or so (I'd imagine, since they're likely to have the most free time), are extremely liberal (most liberal folks I know are of the "don't discipline your child, it might scar him - until he's a teenager, then start", and "let kids do what they want, they're intelligent" persuasion - which is not to say all are), and are more likely to not have a family than to have one.
All these conditions, in my mind, make any advice gotten here something you might not want to consider.
That being said, this 21 y/o father and husband thinks that if, by the time they're 12 or 13, and they're still lying to you, something was done wrong from the beginning. There's evidently a trust issue. Recalling back to the few years to my adolecense, I'd say that this lack of trust is likely due to the fact that they're alienated by you and/or see you as the enemy.
My experience is that if you're the enemy (and I don't just mean your child is upset with you for a couple days, I'm talking about long-term resentment and/or distrust), then it's most likely that you weren't open enough with them when they were younger, aren't open enough with them now, and communication lines need to be cut and re-laid. Tell them that you trust them. Let them know that they've got someone they can talk to if they need to. Be interested in -them-, and care about the things they do. This means spend time with them if they'll allow it. Develop a report with them more sophisticated than the simple "this is how my day was" kind of conversation. You'll thank yourself later.
As for the actual guidelines that I'd suggest (from a fairly liberal-right kind of guy): back off for now, and develop that relationship. If that doesn't seem to be working, let them know that you don't appreciate it. Check their browser caches and/or history, if you're paranoid and/or want to be restrictive of their behavior: if they're bad, let them know about the harms/dangers of whatever they're doing, don't chastize them or punish them. By the time a kid reaches adolecense, they're likely too independent (depending on the kid) to be disciplined effectively, unless the infraction is quite severe. Dolling out punishments like cheap doctor's office candy just causes hatred towards you - they'll see you as being mean.
Re:Internet access (Score:5, Insightful)
The Internet is new; most parents today, as children, did not have the level of access to such material in the home that we do now. As the poster above says, would you let your kids walk around just anywhere in your town? Think of the seediest, run-down strip in your town, yet with no age limits at the bars and video stores. Approximately half of the internet looks like that.
There's a good reason that, before the internet, you had to be a certain age before getting access to this kind of material. It's not to shelter the children, it's to prevent exposure to this kind of material until they are old enough to make mature judgements and decisions. Before learning what the dirty underbelly of the world looks like, they should at least learn respect for others and not to treat women as objects. Children absorb and form ideas very quickly, while adults have a sort of filter of past judgement and experience where they can decide to take something to heart or forget it.
Re:What type of kid? (Score:5, Funny)
Absolutely. If you're skipping school to play Doom, you seriously need a computer upgrade.