Building A Low-Budget TiVo Substitute? 743
thepuma writes "Since I'm cheap, and don't want to pay monthly fees to Tivo, I am researching building my own low-budget Personal Video Recorder and player. Free software options include Freevo and MythTV. Hardware options are the main cost factor. How would you go about building the perfect low-budget PVR?" We've looked at similar questions before, but the guts of such a system (both hardware and software) have been improving -- MythTV, for instance, now supports Hauppauge's PVR-350 card. How would you build a system like this now?
I'd just buy one (Score:-1, Insightful)
Don't do it for cost (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to do it because you think there are other benefits, or because you like to tinker, go right ahead.
You will spend more than the cost of a Tivo plus lifetime service by the time you are done, though.
A cheapskate and you want to use a PC? (Score:4, Insightful)
Tivo + Lifetime sub $300-$400
I know which I'd go for...
buy a fucking tivo (Score:2, Insightful)
Get a job or something.
Re:I'd just buy one (Score:4, Insightful)
To be really useful, a homemade pvr has to solve the problem of obtaining program listings.
Re:I'd just buy one (Score:2, Insightful)
If you, and the people who think this is insightful, can't see the difference between a Tivo (subscription required, arbitrary set of limitations decided on by the company) and a homemade PVR with any media playback/record capability you can put into a PC, then you've certainly made a wise choice. It's also easier to buy a standalone CD-copier than to deal with a CD-burner and various software, but it's not the same!
Now maybe people with something substantial to add to the discussion of homemade PVRs can post...
Upfront Cost is Hard to Beat (Score:4, Insightful)
FWIW, I am a DirecTV subscriber and the DirecTivo gives you a lot of functionality that you just can't easily replicate. It stores full quality video from the satellite feed on the hard drive. It also allows you to record two shows at the same time. That makes it well worth the price. Of course, mine has a 120 GB hard drive hacked in to give over 100 hours of storage.
Now I just need to figure out how copy the video from the Tivo. I can ftp and telnet into the system, but I haven't investigated the state of the extraction software lately. One of those projects I need to get to...
Re:I'd just buy one (Score:4, Insightful)
> just the hardware if you want. Of course not having the program listings and
> scheduling features kinda defeats the main benefit of PVRs.
If you plunk down $300 for the hardware, may as well plunk down the $250 for a lifetime subscription as well.
Just pretend the hardware costs $550, but in this way you will have full guide listings and no monthly fee.
Re:Just buy a vcr (Score:5, Insightful)
Compared to a Tivo: You have to switch tapes They only hold 8 hours You have to rewind them It's a pain to find that 30 min show in the middle of the tape They're louder (at least mine is) when FF and Rewinding Tivo has automatic scheduling
I'm sure there are other advantages, those are just off the top of my head.
Tapes have the advantage of being portable and everywhere so you can take what you recorded to your buddies house, but overall Tivo or some other similar DVR blows the VCR away.
Not really cost effective... (Score:4, Insightful)
Second, if you've got DirecTV, then there's no DVR that you can build that's going to do as good of a job of capturing the signal as the DirecTV DVR w/TiVo (DTiVo). The DTiVo simply copies the already MPEG encoded stream that DirecTV sends. Thus the DTiVo doesn't need an expensive (and relatively low quality) hardware MPEG encoder. Which means that the DTiVo can be found for serious cheap, [valueelectronics.com] sometimes even for free. [rapidsatellite.com] Assuming that a homebrew DVR costs about $800 to build, you could get a free DTiVo and put the $800 towards 13 yrs 4 mos worth of monthly fees.
Still it sounds like a fun project. But it seems like you'd be paying for the entertainment of putting it together. Not for the low cost of the DVR.
Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC? (Score:5, Insightful)
For instance, for the SageTV thing mentioned earlier they state:
MPEG 2 capable receiver (the ones listed on sagetv are analogue ones... really you need one that can do satellite or at least DVB) - minimum $100. To be the same quality as Tivo you'd need one that's RGB in and oh dear they don't exist.
PIII-600 256M - $100ish depending on where you get it.
Video card with TV Out - $50
Big hard drive - at least 120GB - $100
That's $350 *before* you've put in the cost of the rest of the PC... Shuttle cases for example are $100 a throw.
Then there's the noise factor. Tivos are whisper quiet... To make a PC that quiet wou can easily add another $100 onto the base price.
Re:how much? (Score:5, Insightful)
There's no way a PC without a monitor is going to draw 300 Watts unless it's a specialty super-computer. (i.e. Runs at 100% CPU power at all times, while making use of heavy draw hardware such as GPU rendering.)
150 Watts is a much better average. 24 hours a day, with ~30 days in a month, at 150 watts gives:
24*30*150 = 108,000 Watt-Hours = 108 Kilowatt-Hours
Look up what you're paying per KW hour and multiply that by 108. For example, 10 cents per KWH gives you a monthly cost of $10.80.
Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC? (Score:3, Insightful)
High quality PVR card $200
PC $0
benefits of learning? priceless.
Re:Sage TV (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Don't do it for cost (Score:5, Insightful)
You can probably make a scalled down version for $800 - $1000 to do capture and burning to DVD's now (especially with DVD burners being only $100 now as opposed to the $300 when I built mine).
Re:Just buy a vcr (Score:3, Insightful)
Also TiVo records by show title and guide information instead of by timeslot. So NBC decides to rearrange Wednesday night (for whatever reason) you'll still get West Wing recorded.
Comparing a TiVo to a VCR is like comparing a automobile to a tricycle. Yes they're both methods of transportation but one is dramatically more convenient.
Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC? (Score:1, Insightful)
Plus the cost of a phone line which I currently don't have or need in my house.
Plus god knows what kind of statistics they're grabbing from you.
Plus a complete lack of expansion.
Give a man a Tivo and he watches for a day.
Build a man an open source PVR and he watches for a lifetime.
Re:Don't do it for cost (Score:5, Insightful)
Lifetime TiVo service $299
Total $398... And you don't have to do any work.
Though I don't know why you would buy lifetime service instead of paying the $4/month for service through DirecTV. You're probably going to upgrade in less than 6 years.
Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC? (Score:2, Insightful)
(puts on tin foil hat)
Via Epia-M board (like SolarPC), with Reservations (Score:4, Insightful)
http://www.solarpc.com/20.htm
It has:
Those are the bare neccesities if your just going to be cheap. I am cheap/poor too, so that is all I have. Someday I'll get a nice DVD burner so I can archive stuff I might want to see again somday. I also want a wireless keybaord.
For further info check out the PVR Hardware Database:
http://pvrhw.goldfish.org/tiki-view_ar
They have a page with some nice installation guides:
http://pvrhw.goldfish.org/tiki-page.php?
As you can see I am all for building a MythTV box, but having built one, I have to warn you that the software isn't perfect yet. It really kicks Tivo's ass in terms of functionality (I love the MythWeb interface, and you can set it too completely cut out commercials, which it does surprisingly accurately), but it still can be a little buggy sometimes and should only be used by people who like to tinker.
Re:Splurge on the hardware! (Score:2, Insightful)
It looks like they are using a bayesian filter to suggest and record similar programs. This would pretty much put MythTV on par with tivo.
Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC? (Score:3, Insightful)
Just getting the dependencies right for MythTV (most of which are *not* documented) took about half a day.
Then there's the kernel patches for the card... at least two different ones, none of which compiled cleanly and had to be manually hacked.
For the price of your 'high quality' card you could have bought a Tivo, you know... they sell for half that.
Learning is irrelevant - the OP was trying to save money, not learn.
The cheap option is now to buy a real one (Score:5, Insightful)
With a new account (1 year contract) at DirecTV or Dish you can get a free or cheap PVR included... and many other benefits (3 rooms, free installation, etc. etc.). Certain plans (Platinum level or some shiiiiii) even give you the PVR subscription fee included (or included in your receiver mirroring fee).
I'm not saying you shouldn't try building one yourself, but the argument was usually "I could build one cheaper with parts I have lying around" however most people then went out and spent $75-$100 on a brand new capture card. With subsidized
MythTV has definitely progressed along the years, but it's still not 100% reliable (what open-source anything ever is truly complete, tested, and waranteed). That being said, it definitely has some other cool "Media" functions that I really would like in my family room. Of course, I'm not willing to live with the ugly beige box and noise (before you say silent processors and slimline cases, add those costs to your initial argument).
If I truly had the hardware lying around (I don't) and I truly wanted a project not just the end Tivo functionality (I don't) and I was willing to put up with all the tinkering and annoyances required (I might be, wife definitely isn't) then I would consider doing it.
--Darren
Re:I'd just buy one (Score:3, Insightful)
But a used TiVo with an intact lifetime subscription should be worth at least $100-150 more on the secondary market than one without, shouldn't it?
It was always my understanding that the lifetime subscription was transferrable (since, as you point out, it's for the life of the unit).
Hardware MPEG-2 if you want to record TV or DVDs (Score:4, Insightful)
The general rule about software MPEG-2 encoders is this: quality, low-CPU, realtime; pick any two.
If you don't care about being able record to DVD, and/or you want to record to DiVX and envision a house where all of your DVD players are DiVX-capable, then a $30 stereo tuner card will suffice for now.
I have two AverTV Stereo cards that are going up on eBay, because I decided that I really do want to record good quality MPEG-2 to DVD. I need to be able to hand my wife/kids a DVD of the favorite shows that she missed because I made them leave the house. I will be getting a PVR-250 like everybody else.
Note also that this advice applies to Windows people just as much as it does for Linux people. There are no software, high-quality, realtime MPEG-2 coders that don't require an overclocked cryogenically cooled CPU, regardless of what OS you run.
-Rick
1 year.. (Score:3, Insightful)
urpmi xmltv
Not much trouble and the flipside is I've got a full featured PC plugged into my HDTV (sure was nice watching those Quicktime Matrix previews on a big screen).
Re:Just buy a vcr (Score:2, Insightful)
To make matters worse, sometimes our shows get intermingled (her shows on the same tape as my shows) and we don't clear them at the same time. Now we have lots of tapes (~12) with some shows watched and some unwatched. Performing garbage collection on a linear access medium isn't something I enjoy.
I do enjoy tinkering though, it's been fun putting this together. Having my pvr on my house-net will be really nice.
Re:Just buy a vcr (Score:4, Insightful)
Problems with a VCR:
1) Management. If you've recorded a season's worth of show, you have to make sure that they are all recorded in order with no repeats. Rewinding and forwarding is a pain in the butt. Since tapes are only 8 hours, you have to manage the tapes as well as the content.
2) Sharing. You can't watch a recorded show on your computer in the bedroom when your spouse is using the TV in the living room. Most of these machines can be networked so that you can at least transfer files.
3) VCRs cannot function as DVD or media centers
Um.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:remember the old phrase... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:remember the old phrase... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:DirecTivo (Score:2, Insightful)
A word of warning- apparently DirecTV didn't realize how popular this promotion would be. I was on a waiting list for a couple of weeks before they called me back to let me know I could actually buy the thing.
DO NOT buy a DirecTivo at some retailer, at least not without checking out what is involved in installation, especially in multi-room setups ( you need a 'multiswitch', more lines of cable than you think, etc ). You'll get a better deal from DirecTV anyway, especiallly if you're a new customer.
There are also a couple of weird downsides to DirecTivo-
1) you can't buy the Tivo "Home Media Option", which 'lets' you stream tunes and slideshows from your computer to your Tivo
2) I don't know that you can get a lifetime subscription... but the monthly fee is less!
both of these 'downsides' are things which might change, and I can live with. Really, I just want Tivo so my wife can watch her "reality" shows _after_ dinner...
Re:buy a fucking tivo (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, if "How can I pirate TiVo's service to use on my non-TiVo box without paying for it, I could see where this comment would be appropriate. But just because TiVo is Linux-based, anyone who looks for another solution is somehow a hypocrite?
For shame, Mr. Coward, for shame. And you wonder why mom always liked me best?
The way I see it, TiVo has three components: The hardware, the software, and the subscriber information stream. The hardware is basically a small computer with a big hard drive, and its primary advantage over a beige box is a quality I like to call "Media center friendliness." Oh, and it comes with a remote rather than a cron daemon.
The software consists of the Linux kernel and some schnazzy proprietary interface software. The latter is what adds value to the product for most users.
The subscription information is the final piece of the whole TiVo experience, because it gives the box the ability to find stuff for you even when you didn't know it was on, and make recommendations.
So let's get this straight: TiVo provides a certain experience, but not everyone wants precisely that experience. There are plenty of reasons someone might want to build a computer with some of the capabilities of a TiVo. For example, they might want the PVR capabilities but not the features that rely on the subscription stream. Or they may want to be able to back up shows onto DVD, or rip DVDs to the box, or use the box as an all-in-one PVR/DVD player/router/firewall/webserver/gaming platform, just so that they can turn the whole thing into a flaming pile of silicon by getting it Slashdotted while it's trying to record "The Simpsons."
That's what I'd do, anyways.
Re:Don't do it for cost (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, don't expect a hard drive that's constantly writing to last forever.
Re:buy a fucking tivo (Score:3, Insightful)
after a month? (Score:5, Insightful)
And at the end of a month, he will probably know a thing or two about managing video streams, caching, fs tuning, how TiVo works in the first place, and probably a thing or two about building small databases with large BLOBs attached, and maybe start figuring out how to network the FreeVo together with the rest of his LAN so he can watch CNN from his laptop on the porch.
At the end of the same month, however, one who just buys a TiVo will probably know how to watch television.
Whatever happened to taking on a challenge just because it's there?
Digital Satellite and Cable recording? Anyone??? (Score:2, Insightful)