Paperless Billing? 114
Bruha writes "Almost all of the bills I receive today have the option to go paperless. I already pay all utilities and creditcards online but have yet to tell them to stop sending me a physical bill even though they heavily advertise the advantages of it. My concern are mistakes they could audit out and claim were not there. Has anyone experienced any problems with paperless billing or are my worries without merit?"
Your worries are without merit (Score:1)
First Post.
You have missed the point (Score:2)
I have been going the paperless billing route for like 2 years now, and have never had a problem.
And there my friend, is the very issue
When it works (as it has with you for two years) everything is fine. Its only when things go wrong you realise having a paper trail is a very good idea.
FWIW I've had a problem with BT (British Telecom) internet billing a while back (yes I know, stay with me). Being able to whip out paper copies of all me dealings with them definately helpd resolve the problems I had.
I'
Re:Your worries are without merit -- bzzzzt (Score:2)
Note this: many online billing systems and automatic payment systems, allow the companies you have registered with, to add to or take away money at will.
Not having a paper trail may be very bad, if there is identity theft, some
Re:Your worries are without merit (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course the companies advertise it heavily, since it would certainly reduce their costs of mailing, etc.
I chose a half-way solution, where I get paper bills, and I pay them online. Works fine for me, and I get to keep the paper trail.
Re:Your worries are without merit (Score:2, Insightful)
First, the original question seemed to be asking for personal experience, which Tim_F gave. I know it's hard to figure out, because he used difficult words like "I" and "my" and "me" to indicate personal experiences.
Second, only through willfull misunderstanding could a person read Tim_F's post as a strict, unyielding defese of paperless billing. Nowhere his po
Answer is simple... (Score:1, Insightful)
Problems happen no matter what... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Problems happen no matter what... (Score:3, Informative)
One of the problems is that it does not show the running totals with the online statements - only the credits and debits and the most recent balance. I had a friend who had RM1000 (~USD263) 'disappear' undetected for some time from his online transfer - it was not until he updated his bankbook (that gives a running total) that he noticed something amiss. Apparently, after contacting the
Re:Problems happen no matter what... (Score:4, Funny)
Aw, cmon! If paperless is good enough for something important, like voting [blackbox.org], then it should certainly do for something as insignificant as your personal finances.
I won't give them the satisfaction. (Score:4, Insightful)
They save money when you choose to get your bill online only, and so they refuse to allow me to get my bill online and off, though that would be truly customer-centric. So, until they offer to give ME a portion of the savings from mailing every month, they'll just have to keep licking envelopes.
Josh.
Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. (Score:5, Insightful)
I do almost all of my bills online. Interestingly, my credit card company allows me to keep getting my bill in paper even though I pay the bill online. (It's not that interesting in that they're not the only ones doing this for me, but judging from this comment, I'm guessing it's not uncommon to disallow it.)
Here's the problem, though. They keep "offering" to stop sending me my paper bill. First question: why would I want to stop receiving it? It's an automatic reminder that it's due, it leaves me a way to pay by check if I change online banking companies, and it's a nice double-check that they're not screwing me.
Continuing on: when I choose to stop receiving my paper bills (by a simple mouse click online), they won't allow me to go back to receiving them. I might be able to do so if I sent them a letter or something, but still.... Zero incentive to stop receiving the paper versions.
Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. (Score:1)
I do PAY my bill online by credit card - but can't access itemized details like I can with my paper bill. (I still save them the cost of opening an envelope and taking out a paper check - mostly because I hate writing checks.)
Josh.
Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. (Score:1)
Oh, and yeah, checks suck. They're stupid, too. Seriously.
Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. (Score:3, Interesting)
I assume you're joking about the envelope-licking, but one incentive to go paperless is that it reduces their costs, which means they'll be capable of charging you less. These days, it's easy enough to roll any balance to a new card, so those with good credit can demand a lowered APR (case in point: about a year ago, I decided to cancel one of my cards, and told the sexy-voiced woman they transferred me to that another credit limit hike wouldn't make me change my mind, so they offered to permanently drop my
Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. (Score:2)
Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. (Score:1)
Oh, yeah. I guess that'd be the polite thing to do.
AT&T Universal Card [universalcard.com]
They also have $0 liability for charges if the card is stolen (most cards opt for the legal limit of $50) and no annual fee. I have the College Student Card, because I was a student when I applied (duh). The only downside to that is they keep sending me all these "hip" ads; they don't seem to realize that people age, and often graduate.
They're offering new College Student accounts a rate of 13.99% (9.9% for 6 months). I had my ca
Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. (Score:1)
Doesn't mean they'll actually charge less, will it?
Didn't think so.
Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. (Score:2)
I think the more likely scenario is that they'll start charging you for a paper bill and offer to let you do it online for free.
Citibank paid me (but offline not going away) (Score:2)
That would seem to be the case, except that most of the Real World doesn't know
In the other direction, I *did* get a $5 credit from Citibank for switching to paperless. It was no problem -- I'd been paying on
Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. (Score:2, Interesting)
The cost of sending an invoice includes the cost of paper, printing, processing, and postage.
Your provider gets a discount on bulk mailing. When you choose to go electronic, the bulk discount gets upset and the remaining mailings cost more per item. It's not just the quantity in the mailing, but also the density. Cable companies usually get good density, whereas credit card companies probably don't.
Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. (Score:1)
I was a fool to think they would do a good job of it. First, they kept sending me paper bills, ok, fine... then stopped, oh good. Then started again. Great. Then stopped. Uh huh. Then they started coming again. All without me saying anything half the time, so I didn't know if not getting a bill for a month was a good
Paperless Billing (Score:5, Funny)
You just wait.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:You just wait.... (Score:5, Funny)
Maby if you left their pants on you woulden't get hepatits as easily.
Re:You just wait.... (Score:2)
Re:Paperless Billing (Score:1)
Re:Paperless Billing (Score:2)
Maybe I frequent too many mom and pop stores that can and will do this kind of thing...
Re:Paperless Billing (Score:1)
Re:Paperless Billing (Score:2)
Enron paid more taxes than they should have because they were reporting fraudulent income (they have also asked for a refund [bayarea.com] because of this).
Re:Paperless Billing (Score:2)
Re:Paperless Billing (Score:2)
What if you said "Hey, I paid for 3 donuts, but you only gave me one!"? By looking at the receipt, they can demonstrate that you in fact only paid for one. Of course, it can't help prove that you only got one donut if you paid for three.
I think receipts are also handed out so that the donut purchase can be expensed, if you're a business traveler. They would be in the minority, though, so I don't understand why the donut shop makes this the default...
And why are you eating three donuts anyways? What ar
Re:Paperless Billing (Score:1)
Re:Paperless Billing (Score:1)
No Concern About Your Problem (Score:1, Interesting)
Digitally Signed Bills (Score:3, Insightful)
Although now that I think about it, I audit stuff as soon as the bill gets sent to me (ok, so in my world that's a few weeks), if there is a problem I call and fix it right away. Whats the difference between paper and email when I call to say that my bill is wrong? For everything (except for maybe banks) you should have proof in another account, such as to prove you paid your credit card bill, just check your bank statement.
Ok, now I'm confused about what I should do.
Me (Score:2)
So I wouldn't be going to completely paperless billing anytime soon unless I get an option of downloading bills in a format like watermarked PDF softcopy or something like that....
Re:Me (Score:1)
I used to do the same thing (actually, to be honest, I used to keep statements going back for seven years). Now, I've cut it down to just one year for my checking account, and don't bother keeping anything else. I'm a fanatic about tracking all my expenditures and payments in GnuCash, so if there's an error, I catch it the same month in which it occurs.
But, I can see how that approach might not work for everyone.
The problem is the transition... (Score:2)
Statement Life (Score:5, Interesting)
Anybody know a credit card company that keeps records for at least 18 months? Citibank is killing me!
Re:Statement Life (Score:2)
lazy (Score:3, Insightful)
I am lenient in consideration of your low slashdot number
Re:Statement Life (Score:1)
Citibank is a massive conglomerate, and so doesn't necessarily do things consistently across the board, but the company holding my MasterCard got bought out by them a couple years ago, and I'm able to get old statements mailed to me free of charge. I asked them for the absolute oldest statements, because I had poor record-keeping habits when I first got the card, but they purge their records after seven years.
Paperless != No Statement (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Paperless != No Statement (Score:2)
Re:Paperless != No Statement (Score:1)
Paranoia is good (Score:3, Interesting)
And once I got a credit card company to reduce my APR again when I had an extremely valid complaint that the notification sucked (there was no text in any actual bill mentioning the change).
But I've never dealt with an error. Once my bank screwed something up, but they noticed it themselves and fixed it before I even complained.
The thing is, I can't quite move to the paperless bills just because they seem so easy to abuse. Even if I save a copy of the email or webpage, an HTML file is child's play to alter, even for a layman; forging or altering a paper bill is tougher.
I think what we need is electronic bills, with a way to archive a verifiable copy locally. I.e., if it's signed by the company's private key, etc. etc., you can prove you didn't tinker with it.
We also need a format for bills such that they can be plugged into the standard money management programs directly.
Is anyone doing this? It would be nice to get rid of those stacks of old bills.
Re:Lack of Audit Trails (Score:1)
And if you actually try this, you'll be on the business end of an interrogation from some humorless people with guns. How do you propose to check in, when they look at the name as it is returned from the database, and it doesn't match your ID?
I a
Re:Lack of Audit Trails (Score:2)
You haven't flown recently, have you? It is trivial to check in without anyone checking your ID against the database, so long as you have no baggage. Heck, some [nwa.com] airlines [delta.com] even [usairways.com] offer [united.com] online [aa.com] checkin [airtran.com] from home. If you need to check a bag, though, you're right.
Re:Lack of Audit Trails (Score:1)
Re:Lack of Audit Trails (Score:1)
Re:Lack of Audit Trails (Score:1)
Selection (Score:1)
Re:Lack of Audit Trails (Score:2)
A similar twist is available with electronic airline tickets. The electronic ticket saves the airline money, but it also provides a way to evade the fraudulantly obtained restriction on transfering tickets. (It was fraudulantly optained as a way to cut out the second market in tickets, on the basis that it would stop hijacking, when none of the hijackers were buying tickets on the second market.) If you buy an e-ticket, you can transfer it to another person by editting the name in photoshop or in html,
Don't trust them for reminders to pay (Score:4, Informative)
CRON is your friend (Score:2)
If you haven't received a mailing from them, you can check online and pay.
Re:Don't trust them for reminders to pay (Score:2, Interesting)
Related to the original question, I work for a local cable co. and developed their e-mail bill notification software. Once the bill is sent we don't really care about keeping a copy ourselves. We record the transactions and are usually able to reproduce a bill that closely resembles the original. Si
Re:Don't trust them for reminders to pay (Score:1)
Paperless rocks. (Score:4, Interesting)
I went through my filing cabinet last week and rid myself of all past credit card statements (so many cards in 5 years, all at lower and lower rates). When I was done, I had shredded an entire drawer full of garbage. The best part is that I can't fill it back up because I don't get paper sent to me. The only thing I kept were the account closed notices, but only until I order a new credit report to verify closed accounts.
Save a tree, man. Get rid of the paper (and recycle your shredded stuff!)
Re:Paperless rocks. (Score:1)
This is pretty much my story, too. It took me a week's worth of spare time to shred all that stuff, but it felt pretty good to do it (especially those "convenience checks" my credit cards kept sending me). Anyone need a four-drawer filing cabinet?
Re:Paperless rocks. (Score:1)
Encrypted emails? (Score:2)
Re:Encrypted emails? (Score:2)
(Just being a nitpicker. Sorry.)
Re:Encrypted emails? (Score:2)
Re:Encrypted emails? (Score:2)
Original: Any company offering encrypted emails as a paperless billing solution? That way I have a copy of everything and they can't change stuff without a trail. I've got a PGP p
Re:Encrypted emails? (Score:2)
Re:Encrypted emails? (Score:1)
So, let's say Company X sends you an encrypted bill like you want. OK, great, nobody was able to read it in transit bec
Re:Encrypted emails? (Score:2)
I'm sorry I confused you all by simultaneously expressing a desire for privacy.
Some problems (Score:5, Interesting)
He also had the gas company claim they didn't receive payment. They did. He showed them proof. Problem resolved, but it was still quite a hassle.
Long story short, he doesn't do any electronic billing of any sort anymore. (BTW, we're on the south side of Chicago, in case anyone cares.)
Re:Some problems (Score:3, Insightful)
Did your friend ever consider that he might have food money if he wasn't paying so many late fees?
Re:Some problems (Score:2)
paytrust / paymybills (Score:5, Interesting)
I am a rather disorganized person, so i was looking for some service to simplify my management of bills. Online banking services at the time i signed up for paymybills only offered bill payment, not bill receipt. even now, i don't think that anyone else provides such a complete service.
with paytrust, the beauty (or terror, depending on your viewpoint) is that they receive all of your bills. Bills that are electronically deliverable are handled electronically. those that are not are snail-mailed to them, where they have an army of drones ready to scan them in as jpgs so that you can view them online.
there are the usual email notifications, scheduling, selective automatic payment of bills( you specify which bills, when, how much, limits, etc, as you would expect). you can also write checks like you would with a bank online payment system.
yes there are privacy concerns, and it is a little scary to no longer physically recieve bills (but also nice! less mail!) but i wagered that paytrust, a company in the business of providing this service was less likely to screw up than me, someone highly experienced at screwing up bill paying. to my knowledge, paytrust has yet to make any mistake. Something very private doesnt have to be sent to them.
i cant recommend them more highly.
Re:paytrust / paymybills (Score:2, Funny)
Re:paytrust / paymybills (Score:2, Funny)
It actually took me 2 or 3 days of consecutive phone calls to the post office to get my mail started again.
Re:paytrust / paymybills (Score:2)
I know you are lying because this, sir, will NEVER HAPPEN.
If you die they hire somebody to dig your grave up and stick shit in it (or on your headstone as the case may be). They probably install a PC down their so you can still get spam and messenger popups.
Re:paytrust / paymybills (Score:1)
I do get junk mail now.. But it took quite awhile to build up, and I don't think I'm up to "pre anthrax" levels.
Still, I would love to be rid of snail mail entirely.
EFT + paper (Score:1)
But I still get paper for most all of my bills. I guess I just don't quite trust the companies quite enough to go all electronic. Plus, it's actually quite a bit easier to remember to file a piece of paper than it is to remember to download an electronic statement and save it.
My company wanted to move everyone to online-only pay statements
print or save your confirmation pages (Score:2)
I have had one problem. I use the free version of sneakemail, which allows 10MB bandwidth per month. One month I exceeded that bandwidth (and failed to realize it) because of freaking spammers spamming the sneakemail address I used to post to usenet. Sneakemail stopped forwarding my email, and I never received some of the
Re:print or save your confirmation pages (Score:1)
If the page has been rendered in your browser, then you've already got the HTML of the confirmation page on your computer. The trick is getting around the (pretty useless) scripts people use to prevent you 'viewing source', and none of them are hard to defeat.
Print to postscript/pdf (Score:2)
I do this for all sorts of documentation that I fear may not be around later (news story archives)
Easy, readable, electronic.
Paper can have probs too (Score:2)
What about a Combo? (Score:3, Interesting)
I have my account with the Swiss post office, which works pretty nicely (although you could insert any Swiss bank in its place--bank transfer numbers are standardized and inter-bank payments don't cost extra.)
There are some regularly occurring, fixed-amount bills (gym, rent, etc.) for which I have standing payment orders. Anything occasional or variable, I get a paper bill in the mail, with a payment slip.
This is about 1/3 of an A4 piece of paper, containing recipient, amount, and payer, as well as bank info. It has a long-ass numerical code (about 25 numbers) which, along with the recipient account, I have to type into my online banking page.
When I've paid a bill, I just write 'paid date xyz' on the slip and archive it for 2 years--works a charm. The post office also sends me a paper printout of my account activity every month.
It's a great system, it sounds like it's a lot of effort, but I can pay my bills once a month within about 20 minutes time, including archiving paperwork. And I have both electronic and tangible means of tracking my payments.
Re:What about a Combo? (Score:2)
They also offer a special direct payment method for websites.
Check out Paytrust (Score:2)
Re:Check out Paytrust (Score:1)
I agree completely (Score:1)
Do not give them access to your account (Score:2)
Many companies are offering the ability to directly debit your account automatically each month. If that's what you're talking about, you DO NOT want this.
The problem is, there is very regulation of this. I believe there have been related slashdot stories which probably have better details than I'll be able to provide, but in a nutshell, once you give them access to your account -- wether it's a cable company billing you for services, a bank auto-paying
Re:Do not give them access to your account (Score:2)
As in, I have done "very little" previewing of the previous post.
Re:Do not give them access to your account (Score:2)
I guess this depends on where you're coming from. In the UK, where it's quite normal for many people to pay bills by direct debit, every bank that uses the scheme provides the direct debit guarantee [directdebit.co.uk], which is a simple, effective and necessary safeguard for the system to be trustworthy. People do occasionally get overcharged for whatever reason, but the guarantee ensures they should suffer no long term ill effects, and I know of no-one who ever has.
'Course, it's much easier to prove that you've been overch
Do it through your bank. (Score:2)
I use firstib.com, and they've been fantastic. They are set up to receive e-bills from anybody set up to do that, which turned out to be something like 3/4 of all my bills. The bills show up, and I get a notification, and go in and manually pay them. (You can set it up automatically, but I prefer to do it myself)
This way, if a compan
Paperless billing = nearly unprovable payment (Score:2)
I'm all for automating every aspect of my life, but the one exception I make is bill payment. I just don't like the idea of giving many entities the ability to remove funds from my checking account. They can assure me all they want that it will never happen without my consent, but I'm not buying it.
I've even had problems with monthy charges to my credit card-- a couple years ago Cingular was supposed to p
DO NOT GO PAPERLESS w/ SPRINT (Score:1)
Re:DO NOT GO PAPERLESS w/ SPRINT (Score:1)
Printed Electronic Statements often not "proof" (Score:2)
However, I have had problems with all the electronifying of my statements. I tried to get a mortgage a few months ago. I asked the loan officer if I could email her the html/pdf's of my bank and pay statements. nope. we need paper. So I curse a little at how behind the times they are, but
Also consider mail theft / identity fraud too... (Score:1)
It will probably mean saving more paper receipts in the long run though. A fair trade-off in my situation.
Pays personal checks as well. (Score:1)
This has allowed me to go completely online (at least on my end, they are still analog banking) for my banking, this includes checks to my land lord, as well as my father.
Although, I still get all my bills mailed to me, but that is solely for the reminder factor, with out that stack of mail, how woul
Experience tells me to not go paperless. (Score:1, Insightful)
Companies like to assume their customers are liars/thieves and are lying to weasel out of having to pay.
Companies will always believe the incorrect data in their computers rather than the truth you speak when you call them to complain.
Since the burden is always on you to prove them wrong, having paper they generated to back up your assertions is vital. Going paperless deprives you of this ammunition.
Paperless won't truly work until companies stop this "the customer is always lying" a
I use paytrust -- for the records (Score:2)
I don't want to say that
Little did I know... (Score:2)
My solution (Score:1)
At this point I want a paper bill to come in the mail. I then scan it then PDF it. I then have multi page PDFs that print out nicely. I then have the bills shreaded and recycled.
All but 2 of my bills have auto-payment to debit/credit card. I have them go against my credit card then pay off the cr4edit card each month. I would do it against my debit card (aka checking account) but then I would be affraid of a bill hitting it with not enough money in ther