Cross Platform BIOS Flash Upgrades? 103
niko9 asks: "I am a Linux user who lives in an all Linux household. I build all my Linux boxes from components that I know will play nice with Linux. I was recently contemplating building a box with a Tyan Tiger K8W dual-Opteron motherboard, as the original BIOS did not provide support for the built-in Intel Gigabit NIC. Tyan has since released a BIOS revision, but the instructions for flashing the BIOS explicitly state that you need a Windows 95/98 boot disk. As someone who doesn't know anyone who runs Windows 98, nor do I own any copies of any Microsoft operating system, how does someone complete the delicate task of a BIOS upgrade? Wasn't Windows 98 recently retired? An email to Tyan's tech support has so far not yielded any response. When will motherboard manufacturers realize that upgrading your BIOS is better off being a neutral OS event? Does anyone know of any motherboard maker that doesn't require a specific OS to flash a BIOS?" A simple solution is to not fight the requirement. Windows and DOS bootdisks are readily available on the Internet, and all you need to do is grab a floppy, write the image to it, and put it in a safe place for such occasions. The gist of the question is still valid, however: what will it take to get BIOS manufacturers to make an OS neutral BIOS upgrade path?
Well, (Score:4, Informative)
Flash disk image, not self-extracting zip (Score:1)
For example, I have an old Dell which needed a BIOS upgrade the other year and had to go to the trouble of finding a Windows user to download and uncompress the disk image for me. If it have been available as purely a disk image, it would have been a non-issue instead of a black spot against Dell on my next x86 purchase.
If more users were to suggest using disk images instead of the MS-DOS/MS-Windows only ex
Buy another board (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Buy another board (Score:1)
I'd like to emphasize the question posed in the original post " Does anyone know of any motherboard maker that doesn't require a specific OS to flash a BIOS?"
Voting with your feet is great, but you gotta have a place to walk to.
Re:Buy another board (Score:2, Interesting)
My Asus (A7V333) board has an BIOS update program built into the BIOS.
Press Alt-F2 during the POST and insert a floppy with the BIOS image file. Updated my BIOS a few weeks a go.
Asus has some documentation [asus.com] on their website
Don't know if will work without a normal floppy drive.
Re:Buy another board (Score:1)
Of course, in the spirit of good will and openness, right?
Re:Buy another board (Score:2)
In order for a computer to run it needs to be booted and have some OS.
There are no guarantees that the computer being flashed even has a hard drive yet, or that the hard drive is talking because the machine is using an old BIOS.
The computer can't really be running a full house OS from the hard drive when it is time to flash the BIOS, because when the BIOS flashes it needs to power down and power back up again without giving the OS a chance to politely close everything do
FreeDOS (Score:2)
What happens when you no longer have floppy drives? I have never flashed any of my Macs but now I'm wondering how I would do it.
Re:FreeDOS (Score:2)
Re:FreeDOS (Score:1)
Done it recently. Downloaded the Open Firmware update with Software Update, clicked on it to install. It asked for my password, shut all applications, then advised that it would reboot the machine, that I would see various progress bars, then be welcome with a dialog box advising of the success of the operation. If not, reboot the computer.
Re:FreeDOS (Score:2)
Not sure what is going to happen if I ever need to update the BIOS, although I alway leave a small (4G) par
Re:Buy another board (Score:2)
Does it really have to? The only reason I ask, is because some time ago, I screwed up a bios flash. The method I used to fix it, was to pop the chip out, and put it in a running PC, re-flash, and replace the chips. It fixed my problem, and the running PC was able to function without an eeprom even installed. From what I gather,
Re:Buy another board (Score:2)
Re:Buy another board (Score:1)
Of course, this is about the only time I attach a floppy to these machines. Therefore a bootable CDROM image, Linux or not, would be alot future-proof and could contain more information. Since bootable CDs
Re:Buy another board (Score:3, Informative)
A "Windows 95/98 boot disk" is nothing but a DOS boot disk. If you don't have DOS or Windows, then just get FreeDOS [freedos.org], an open source version of DOS. It'll work just fine for a boot disk for ROM flashing. There's even a single diskette "distro" that you can download (although, frankly, you don't need anything more than kernel.sys and command.com as best I can tell). They even have a FAQ on this. And two manufacturers (MSI and ASUS) ship it with their utilities.
Good luck finding anyone who will pro
TSR (Score:2)
Re:Buy another board (Score:2)
I wish
One can only hope.
Re:Buy another board (Score:2)
I'm curious, (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I'm curious, (Score:2)
Re:I'm curious, (Score:2)
Re:I'm curious, (Score:1)
Why windows98? Mod this guy up... (Score:2)
Why windows 98?
I strongly suspect that lazy technical writers neglected to explain why they insisted on a windows 95/98 boot disk. I strongly suspect that they needed a boot disk that left the computer in real mode. If this is the case then freedos, or any version of msdos or drdos would work.
So, somebody should mod the parent up.
Re:I'm curious, (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I'm curious, (Score:2)
Re:I'm curious, (Score:1)
Re:I'm curious, (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I'm curious, (Score:2)
Re:I'm curious, (Score:1)
I've done that on remote machines: reserve 1 cylinder and have a corresponding GRUB entry for DOS. When it comes to perform the flash upgrade or NIC configuration, copy the necessary programs to that partition, call an onsite person and walk them through selecting the correct partition to boot from and any other menu driven tasks. When it is finished, they just reboot the machine. They don't have to worry about having a few floppies on hand (the floppy drives are unused and are generally full of dust, so
Re:I'm curious, (Score:2)
You call that simple? How's making a bootable usb key, takes no space at all, and putting bios's on that whenever the occasion comes up.
Re:I'm curious, (Score:2)
--Linux is complete overkill for BIOS flashing, all you should need is something like FreeDos and a floppy drive.
Re:I'm curious, (Score:2)
Who gives a shit, this is for MY COMPUTER, and it works for ME. In addition the newer machines that do not have floppies, would probably have the ability to boot off of usb. Machines that can't boot off of USB, I use bootdisk.com and flash in DOS. For the machines I work on, USB is just easier.
Re:I'm curious, (Score:2)
Actually I am a Sysadmin for a Fortune 500 company. I don't own any gaming systems and would hardly call myself a gamer, much less a brain dead. In addition USB keys are very useful. Booting puppy linux, and doing maintenance on a downed Linux box, storing files too small to waste a cd on but too large for a floppy, etc.
Let's see. I'm going to carry all my critical/vital data in my pocket on
Re:I'm curious, (Score:2)
Re:I'm curious, (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I'm curious, (Score:2)
I dunno about everyone else but I like to make a backup copy of the old BIOS before I flash it. Can't do that very easily with a CD-only system...
Re:I'm curious, (Score:2)
You're saying that you don't have at least one rewritable?
Gigabyte (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Gigabyte (Score:2)
Back on topic, Gigabyte and a few other hardware manufacturers (nvidia for instance) take pains to make us Linux users more able to keep our hardware up to date from the system. Unfortunately those changes have to come from the consumers, not from the manufacturers in
ASUS too (Score:1)
But I would be glad if I hadn't to build in a floppy every time I want to flash the bios.
Bootdisks (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Bootdisks (Score:2)
dd if=boot98sc.IMA of=/dev/fd0 Or whatever your filename happens to be.
Boot Disks (Score:1)
They have images available for just about any OS you need.
http://www.bootdisk.com/ (Score:2)
Back to the original question about an OS neutral solution, it will probably happen when people start clamoring for it. It wouldn't take much for companies to put a disk image up that has freedos and the new bios image on it so people can flash their bios just by booting the floppy. The problem will arise though when the machine you need to flash won't have a floppy drive, then I guess it's time for the motherboard companies to create ISOs of boota
If manufactures wanted to be really slick... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:If manufactures wanted to be really slick... (Score:2)
That is a slick idea. The best way to do that is to build an interface ala Linksys' web configurator. This allows for smooth operation of most cable/dsl providers -- and will work with most idiosyncracies (PPPoE, etc). It'd be an easy update. I guess that either the BIOS standards are really important, or mobo manufacturers just don't give a shit (otherwis
Re:If manufactures wanted to be really slick... (Score:1)
Re:If manufactures wanted to be really slick... (Score:2)
Howso? It doesn't have to run a web server (I never implied that it did) for the configurator (it just has to be easy like Linksys' web interface). The only possibility that I can see for expliots are for a MIM attack. This can be taken care of pretty easily with public key authentication, and it's still more secure than the current model (download BIOS updates over WWW/FTP unauthenticated, no hash, and no security at all). I'm not talking about any service
Re:If manufactures wanted to be really slick... (Score:1)
You just have to make sure that the TCP/IP stack is totally dead when not in use so that no maligned incoming packets can cause damage.
Re:If manufactures wanted to be really slick... (Score:1)
Re:If manufactures wanted to be really slick... (Score:2)
Re:If manufactures wanted to be really slick... (Score:2)
> OS.
Why?
Re:If manufactures wanted to be really slick... (Score:1)
who has a floppy drive anyways.. (Score:2)
freedos might be enough too, booting from cdrom might be useful enough(and have the space for the actual update as well..).
and if you really just need to do it(the free as in beer group) then 98 and all earlier rescue/bootdiscs are easily found with with google.
though personally i got an aging 6gigger still connected that works as the boot device and has a fat32 partition for the odd bios/firmware upgrade/tweak.
-
Re:who has a floppy drive anyways.. (Score:1)
Re:who has a floppy drive anyways.. (Score:2)
> found
Not legally.
It is neutral (Score:1)
Forget OS neutral, get rid of floppies! (Score:2)
I'm not so concerned with OS-neutral BIOS updates. I can google for boot floppies.
The thing that gets me is that I've gotta use a floppy for BIOS updates. It's the only thing that I'll ever need a floppy for anymore (and I don't put those into any desktop machines anymore, for home or work). Why can't we just kill the floppy beast? Is it so hard to manufacturers to release updates on an ISO image (or something -- anything else!)? It costs me about the same either way (~$.75 for a floppy or CD-R).
Re:Forget OS neutral, get rid of floppies! (Score:2)
straight direct access to hardware without fuzz.. though if you're writing the device drivers too i can't see how it would be a THAT big of a problem in xp/nt world either..
Re:Forget OS neutral, get rid of floppies! (Score:2)
I can't see why that can't be done with a free OS (like a Linux/BSD/etc). You don't have to run any particular OS (to have a DOS license) -- run whatever the hell you want -- just have something that can boot their image. Sure, direct hardware access isn't super-easy -- but they own the mobo, they know how it works and how to addre
Floppies... (Score:2)
Even though it's slow, and small, a floppy is the one common denominator among almost every PC in use today - except mine.
Floppies Just Work(tm).
I don't have to configure networking. I don't have to ask them to burn me a CD (some don't even have burners). I don't need ten different networking configurations for every possible OS version out there. I don't have to wait for a CD to finish burning(5 minutes
Re:Floppies... (Score:2)
With regards to point #1, this is untrue. PC manufacturers (like IBM, Dell, and Gateway) are phasing out floppies. They don't just come with PC's anymore (and haven't for the past year or so) -- you have to specifically request/purchase one. I'd be willing to guess that CD-R's are more common than floppies now (completely antecdotal -- I have nothing obj
Re:Floppies... (Score:2)
Yes, a CD-RW does hold more. But they don't solve the fundamental problem of being able to edit one's work from any computer.
Until
Re:Floppies... (Score:2)
It's your money...so this is all up to you. However, Zip disks are a HORRIBLE idea for removable storage if you care about reliability. If you haven't heard about it, do a google search for the click of death (or the related class-action lawsuit). The only storage media that caused mor
Re:Floppies... (Score:2)
--I'll call bullshit on this one. I've heard of cheap CDR media dying, and AAMOF my Memorex CDRWs die after about 5-6 rewrites, even if I blank the entire disc. Cheap(er) media is more susceptible to failure, period.
--I have some old leftover CDR media that looks TRANSLUCENT after 6-8 months. When I saw that I immediately rippe
Re:Floppies... (Score:2)
You hit the nail right on the head -- cheaper media is more suseptible to failure, preiod. It's pretty much regardless of the type of media, when you buy cheap, you get cheap.
Re:Forget OS neutral, get rid of floppies! (Score:2)
So get a boot floppy image, add your BIOS update du jour, and create a bootable 1.44MB El Torito CD image from it. Voila! Bootable CD that is the same as having a floppy drive. (Yes, the CD appears as a: ).
Re:Forget OS neutral, get rid of floppies! (Score:2)
I can't vouch for them being problem-free, but I've never had a problem with those sorts of widgets.
Re:Forget OS neutral, get rid of floppies! (Score:2)
Re:Forget OS neutral, get rid of floppies! (Score:2)
Yah, I know how easy it is to make an image. The point I was trrying to make is that this is neither easy nor is it intuitive for the "normal" user. Floppies need to be killed once and for all. This adherence to floppies being used for little jobs like BIOS updates just extends their lifetime. This doesn't help.
Believe it or n
Re:Forget OS neutral, get rid of floppies! (Score:2)
Floppies suck - I agree with you there. If there's no reason to break compatability, however, then you shouldn't. I'm merely pointing out that the bootable floppy image is completely useable on a floppyless system where a non-floppy image system may be unuseable on existing systems. Sure, it could be made more user friendly (in fact I know there are lots of po
Re:Forget OS neutral, get rid of floppies! (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't understand why so few seem to know about the "new" floppies, namely the USB memory keys. These things are smaller than floppies, blazingly fast (USB 2.0 vs traditional floppies anyone?) and all modern BIOSes can boot from one, either through a floppy emulation (el-torito-like)
Well, there's freeDOS (Score:2)
Most BIOS flashing utilities run in 16 bit real mode, and I believe the reason why Tyan specifies a Win95/98 boot disk is because it's the version of a DOS boot disk that most readily available. I'd bet that the utility would run just fine under DOS 6.0, or any other DOS.
And if you really must insist on using Linux, you might want to look up DOSemu, if it still exists. Last I heard, they're using the freeDOS kernel.
Why would they? (Score:1)
Honestly, a dos boot disk has to be the most common and easily aquired items in the computer world. You can go to BootDisk.com [bootdisk.com] and get your boot disk. And as far as having win98 to make a 98 boot disk I havent myself or known anyone that actually used win98 to make a boot disk. Again they can make one from newer versions of Win or they can download one.
So if a dos boot disk it the simplest and most common type of disposable boot disks for doing a bios flash than why change.
Side point is that most bios f
More bootdisks... (Score:2)
Re:More bootdisks... (Score:2)
Re:More bootdisks... (Score:1)
Sheesh.
Here's What You Need... (Score:1)
Re:Here's What You Need... (Score:1)
Re:Here's What You Need... (Score:2)
Oh my god, quitcher bitchin'! (Score:2, Informative)
How about this: They require a DOS boot floppy because
a: These tools usually operate in real mode
b: DOS is real mode
c: DOS fits on a floppy
d: DOS isn't free
Oh, wait, DOS IS FREE [freedos.org].
STOP WHINING. Your knee-jerk reaction to "this needs DOS" is to think inside the box and whine about how MSFT eats babies and is a monopoly and nobody considers freedom important and TEH LUNIX RO
Re:Oh my god, quitcher bitchin'! (Score:1)
Freaks.
Re:Oh my god, quitcher bitchin'! (Score:2, Informative)
Dont Do It!!! (Score:4, Informative)
Big Mistake. It vaporized my bios and I had to resort to unusual methods to recover the board. Fortunately I had 2 of the exact same board, so I was able to remove the bios eproms from both boards and copy from the good one to the corrupted one.
Freedos might be good for a lot of things, but bios flash upgrades isnt one of them...
Caveat Emptor...
--
John Cavanaugh
Re:Dont Do It!!! (Score:1)
Re:Dont Do It!!! (Score:2)
Some single disk version will load one or more of these (usually XMS) and this can cause a small risk of causing issues, but so can MS-DOS/Win9x boot disk with HIMEM or EMM386 loaded.
Re:Dont Do It!!! (Score:1)
Did ya get the proper bios image?
Did you boot up with no drivers loaded - and especially no driver "loaded high"? That means no atapi.sys, no mscdex and no mouse.com.
FreeDOS a fscking clone of MS-DOG for crying out loud. No more - no less. Having failed at such a rudimentary task does not give you voice to discredit and slander a perfectly functional system.
Besides - don't whine about not having win98 in your house - you download thousands of (MS/PC/DR/N
More neutral than dos? (Score:1, Informative)
I want linux, down with MS is less than a neutral mantra.
How about MOBO makers supply you with a memory card from an old tandy... wait how about old NES cartridges, who knows what OS is on them.
My sarcasm is not meant to fan the flames but choose your battles man. Changing bios upgrade methods to a truly neutral format isnt going make anyone feel warm and fuzzy except yo
How to do it (Score:1)
The most irritating thing... (Score:2)
... about this sort of problem is:
An email to Tyan's tech support has so far not yielded any response.
nik09 didn't say how long it had been since he send the question, and given the holidays it's entirely possible that Tyan just hasn't yet gotten around to responding to his question, but its also all too common that when faced with questions like this one companies simply choose not to respond. At all!
That really pisses me off. I'm a paying customer, and while it may not be worth the manufacturer's
Why would an OS even be necessary? (Score:2)
Ultimate Bootdisk Site (Score:2)
Of course his bandwidth has just been exceeded... Slashdot effect! Also he just came out with a WinXP Boot CD and it's rather popular.
Some do. (Score:2, Informative)
- RustyTaco
Asus P4B533 (Score:3, Interesting)
'course i've been too timid to try it out
Re:Asus P4B533 (Score:2)
I've kept one around (Score:2)
Anybody hardware that may require a boot disk at some time should provide one. If they had to pay
Chip Pulling (Score:2)
FreeDOS and dosemu or dosbox (Score:2)
I also have been very surprised that bios manufacturers haven't been using f
Give me a break (Score:1, Flamebait)
No, it's not. It's a stupid question, based upon a stupid premise.
As someone who doesn't know anyone who runs Windows 98, nor do I own any copies of any Microsoft operating system, how does someone complete the delicate task of a BIOS upgrade?
You're either living in a spider hole like Saddam or you're lying.
You don't know anyone who runs Win 95, 98, ME, 2000, or XP