Application-Centricity in Our Schools? 87
bccomm asks: "Here on Slashdot, we continually hear about new successes in bringing free software closer to the desktop. What about schools? I am a student and was once asked to redo an entire presentation because I had used Prosper instead of PowerPoint. The explanation I received from him was 'the curriculum says I'm supposed to teach Word, PowerPoint, etc, not word processing and presentations.' How is this for irony: presentation has to be about volunteer work/hobbies, and I chose to show that my computer runs a daily NetBSD snapshot. I think it just lost some effectiveness. Is anyone else bothered by this?"
Hate to say this, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
... as stupid as this sounds, if the project were to be done using Word and Powerpoint about your hobbies, you should have at least made the attempt to make it look like you did it on Word and Powerpoint, regardless of your personal viewpoints. The easiest would have been to put it in an MS compatible format when you were doing it so that you could display and turn in what you had to in a form that the teacher would have liked. Being an ex-tutor, there were some stupid things I had to adhere by and one of them was that all electronic documents had to be in an MS readable format for some of the courses (they were A+, Net+, and MCSE courses). Now, being the Linux tutor also, when it came time for things to be done at home (research, projects, etc) the only thing my students had to adhere to was keeping the documents in MS readable formats so that other tutors could review if necessary. This kept everyone happy as they got to work in what they wanted (Linux, BSD, OS/2, Winwhatever, etc) and still kept with course guidelines.
CliffH
Re:Hate to say this, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
To the thread author: welcome to the real world, where youll find people rejecting your work for things as insignificant as font size or program version.
Consider it a learning experience which could have been worse... at least you were allowed to redo it.
Re:Hate to say this, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Why would one need to save to a platform specific format and not to a platform independent format? M$ users can just as well save to pdf, rtf or whatever with their programs. Those documents could then be read with the platform of choice and in most cases with the viewer of choice. I for one was not interested in rebooting my develop
Re:Hate to say this, but... (Score:1)
Well, like it or not, MS formats are what the higher ups (managers, head tutors, headmasters, etc) use and understand how to open. Over here (in NZ) you have what is called the NZQA [nzqa.govt.nz] which releases frameworks for testing purposes. The schools then turn around and either write their own NZQA units based off of these frameworks or buy them from other companies. If these frameworks state that Document A has to be in a given format, it has to be in that given format. If it is not, that student has failed that ex
Re:Hate to say this, but... (Score:1)
Re:Hate to say this, but... (Score:1)
Correct that it wont save to pdf, but it "prints" to PDF via a number of "distillers"
Re:Hate to say this, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Then again, you could also argue that you don't need a monster program like Emacs to type in a small program/email of a couple of pages, either. [1] And yet some people happily use Emacs all day long, just as some people -- a completely non-intersecting group of people, I suspect -- use Word all day long.
I h
Re:Post the name of the teacher/school (Score:2, Insightful)
While I'd prefer an open classroom where everyone has the freedom to perform a task with the tools they can acquire, I also have to sympathize with the teacher, who has to teach and mark in an even-handed manner, without necessarily prejudicing either the technicall
I'm not bothered (Score:1)
No, I'm not. I think you just can't follow directions and want someone here to make you feel better.
the curriculum says I'm supposed to teach Word, PowerPoint, etc, not word processing and presentations.
Did you take a class on using Microsoft Office and then decide to not use it?
Re:I'm not bothered (Score:3, Insightful)
It very much depends on what the course is called, though. Although the "curriculum" states Word & Powerpoint, we don't know whether the course title is that or id it's "Word processing and Presentations". So the OP may not have taken a course that was titles "Microsoft Office", but was then told that that's all he could use.
The centre where I'm currently doing IT Support teaches "Computer Literacy" classes. There's nothing in the actual course titles about Microsoft Products. (Yes, I know some places
Yes, but... (Score:2, Informative)
Also, many of my teachers like to distribute the student's presentations later online so that all of the students can view them again, i
Re:Yes, but... (Score:1, Informative)
This is easily fixed by converting to PDF. You can do this by printing to a postscript file and running ps2pdf on it (this also works on Windows).
Re:Yes, but... (Score:2)
Re:Yes, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
My professors had a very simply policy. You were welcome to use whatever tools you liked to complete an assignment. However, if when you handed it in it didn't open or compile (as applicable) on the professor's machine (which was setup in a documented way) it counted as a fail.
A student saying "but it works on my computer at
Re:Yes, but... (Score:2, Funny)
1) (and mainly) Because i had declared a variable in the wrong places
2) Because their stupid "Ansi C" compiler didnt give a damn.
"But Prof. it works! It compiles, have you tried?"
"Yes, but it shouldnt"
Hows that for a pain in the ass?
Openoffice has word count (Score:2)
File/Properties
Num Pages, tables, graphics, OLE Objects, Paragraphics, WORDS, Characters and Lines.
Re:Openoffice has word count (Score:1)
Re:Openoffice has word count (Score:2)
A simple macro will do that too. Really, learn to google it's your friend.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
Gives you a forum post to this sice with the nice macros...
http://www.darwinwars.com/lunatic/bugs/oo_macro
Re:Openoffice has word count (Score:1)
Results matter (Score:3, Insightful)
This guy (assuming a guy) should be praised for using the tools at hand to get the job done. PERIOD.
Re:Results matter (Score:2)
It matters not that (the topics program) is free, or that OpenOffice is free, or that...... What matters is that Powerpoint is alreday been paid for, installed, and people have a bit of a clue of how to use it (since it uses common controls with the rest of Office).
You would have to be doing one fancy ass presentation to warrent spe
Re:Results matter (Score:1)
Problem is, the perception in academia is that "unless you know Microsoft, you're not employable"
This is the result of a well-crafted campaign by Microsoft and its underlings to get Education pimping their product for them.
How do you undo such things?
um, you're taking this class why? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:um, you're taking this class why? (Score:2, Informative)
requirement (Score:2)
Re:um, you're taking this class why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Since the usefulness of Powerpoint as a piece of software is completely questionable to me, any effort spent in trying to figure out how to use it would be completely wasted.
cheese (Score:2)
Re:um, you're taking this class why? (Score:2)
I don't have the SLIGHTEST clue how to do ANYTHING with Powerpoint.
Since the usefulness of Powerpoint as a piece of software is completely questionable to me, any effort spent in trying to figure out how to use it would be completely wasted.
I agree with you vehemently.
Unfortunately, as I speak, collaborators have pointed me to their ppt file where I need to shove in 3 pages of my stuff which I had done quite nicely earlier using pdflatex.
As so even as I curse PowerPoints ubiquity, I recognize the ne
Re:um, you're taking this class why? (Score:2)
Hell, it'd be easier to use old-fashioned grade school style transparency projectors, IMO. Just because you're presenting data that you got on a computer, doesn't mean you need to
Re:um, you're taking this class why? (Score:2)
Re:um, you're taking this class why? (Score:2)
Re:um, you're taking this class why? (Score:1)
Re:um, you're taking this class why? (Score:2)
PeePee (Score:3, Informative)
At my university (ewu.edu) every student is required to take a computer "literacy" (more like computer penmanship, I think) test to prove that they are computer literate.
Not only is this test MS product specific (PeePee, MS Worse, Eksell...) it is specific to the point where questions ask the student to do tasks using specific mouse clicks (or so I'm told - I'm doing my best to avoid the whole area myself) and the exam software won't let you do it in any othe
Re:PeePee (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:PeePee (Score:4, Insightful)
More than likely, the class is to help people with average or below average computer skills to survive in an institution of higher education. For instance...lot's of people came to my school [vt.edu], majored in Computer Science/Engineering, and had never written a line of code in their lives. Many had never, or very seldom, used a word processor or more commonly they hadn't used presentation (PP) or spreadsheet (Excel) apps. Every paper and most of the homework was required to be typed up or presented in an attractive, business like format. How does someone learn to do this when they're from south western Virginia and their high school is still using outdated Apples? Windows dumbfounded these people, let alone Word.
It was a running joke at Tech that if you didn't come into the CS curriculum with some programming experience, you wouldn't make it out. That's because they completely skip introduction to computers ("101 - This is a mouse") and go straight to programming. Great for some of us, horrible for others.
When the majority of your work is expected to come in some format, that format should be taught to you in your first semester. Since not everyone's first semester is the same, a single class presented when first entering college would be a good idea. Make it a 0 credit survey class or something, but still offer it so you aren't failing people for lame reasons like not knowing Word.
--trb
App- / language-centricity as a quality metric (Score:5, Insightful)
As it happens, I am such a person. Give these bozos hell.
Re:App- / language-centricity as a quality metric (Score:1)
Teach PRODUCT, not PROCESS!
Re:App- / language-centricity as a quality metric (Score:2)
So there is a choice of tools that will do the job. A professor has the right to require the use of a tool (to support a concept) that also will have practical uses for the student upon graduation. What's wrong with the criteria for a class requi
Re:App- / language-centricity as a quality metric (Score:2)
And honestly, if I were interviewing candidates, I'd take somebody who knows Eiffel and has a solid understanding of OO over somebody who knows Java and thinks procedurally.
Sure, it's nice to "have it both ways" and get somebody who already knows Java inside and out -- but in my experience, school training in Java gi
You're all missing the point! (Score:2)
HS vs University (Score:3, Insightful)
-Sean
Re:HS vs University (Score:2)
Re:HS vs University (Score:4, Insightful)
Absolutely. In a much earlier incarnation, I taught Freshman Comp. at a Pac-10 university. It was easy to tell that what little instruction the majority of students had received on writing in HS was a prescriptive set of rules to follow that led to a standard form. When handed assignments that required critical thought (i.e. pretty much everything they'd be getting in many college courses) that would not be well served by following their formulaic rules, they fell flat on their face.
All too much of the class was spent getting them to unlearn much of the indoctrination they had received.
The exceptions were notable. I actually talked with some of them about this and found that most of the exceptions weren't exceptional because they were brilliant but because their HS did not teach the way most did. These kids were coming in with a leg up on their peers because their HS training had actually encouraged critical thinking and the ability to express it coherently. My guess is that many of those differences smoothed out after a year or so of college, but I'm pretty sure that these kids came out with higher GPAs and ultimately better job prospects because of the quality of their HS instruction.
In case you couldn't guess, I do find the situation described by bccomm deplorable. However, I will also offer some advice that I used to offer my students in freshman comp. Learn how to read your teacher and pick your battles. Bccomm is going to have a much better insight as to whether this a battle that is winnable and what effort that might require. If it isn't worth it move on. More importantly is learning how to read your instructors. If this teacher is the kind of idiot who can't recognize and reward independent thought and effort, then give him the minimal effort to turn in the dross that he thinks is important. When you find the kind of instructor who will challenge you to push your boundaries and actually learn something, go for it. Take advantage of it, and realize that often these types of teachers will grade more leniently for someone who aims high and fails than for someone who underacheives with sufficient work.
And, no, it is not that way in the 'real' world where results are primarily what matters. But, HS should not be aiming for a 'real' world simulation.
Yes, I've noticed. (Score:2, Insightful)
I never, ever use the requested application if I can help it (Access can import and mysql can export, you know...). But that doesn't mean I'm obnoxious about it.. I on
Re:Yes, I've noticed. (Score:2)
I have a different reason for not using the requested application: I can't affod Word. Okay, I could if I really wanted it, but $2000 isn't worth it. Word doesn't run on my FreeBSD system, and is so bloated (from what I hear, I've not tried it) that I don't think I'd want to try a current version so Wine is out. That means a new computer, running Windows. $1500 (If I'm buying a computer I'm getting a nice LCD monitor, lots of RAM, and a bunch of options like firewire), plus whatever MSOffice costs, $50
Re:Yes, I've noticed. (Score:1)
The requested application is *always* windows-only.
I never use the requested application, not out of spite, but because I really have no viable option.
Whatever... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, and I wish my neighbors would clean up after their dogs, too.
It's hard to know what to make of your particular issue, since you left out such details as what the subject of the class is. But even giving you the full benefit of the doubt -- there are going to be things in life that are done in a less than optimal way, and your needing to do a presentation in a perfectly appropriate application instead of some new thing you found on Sourceforge is hardly the worst case you'll encounter.
Just be glad they didn't make you do it in Excel.
Thin Line (Score:3, Insightful)
In a school environment, you have to look at the practical picture. What are you trying to achieve by working with these programs? Are you teaching examples of GUI driven tools, the effectiveness of slideshow presentations, how to type, etc? Most of these courses are designed to teach students how to use their computer. This often translates into "how to do task-x with y-program on a computer".
Since Powerpoint is the widespead example and definition of a slideshow app, it seems logical to use Powerpoint and not another program. Forcing one app over another shows a lack of understanding on the institution's part (try not to blame the teacher) if the end result is the same. If students learn how to make slideshow presentations effectively, isn't that the goal? If this is Microsoft Office training, the end result is not entirely the same. Also, there are technicalities with different apps which might make the teacher exert more effort just to accomodate a few students. I am not saying this is bad/good, but I can understand wanting to do things one way, even with sacrifices.
It all depends on what the goals of the course actually are, vs. the specifics of how to reach the goals. Too many institutions and teachers are hung up about the "how" and stress formula or rule compliance to achieve their goals. In essence, they have lost the purpose of education - not conformity, but developement (i.e. improvement). OTOH, some teachers have found the extreme opposite.
Frankly, national governments in countries which have education branches should embrace open source. No reason why OpenOffice cannot be improved a little (a few less bugs, maybe a few more features) by government funds at least. The pay off is software which has no license fees and can be easily extended and ported. The software could be used in other places like libraries and government offices as well.
Education should be stressing alternatives rather than catering to the business world's trends. I understand that getting a job means you need experience in certain applications - courses for specific apps have their place. But in general education, especially requirements, the end result should be learning how to use a computer, not simply how to use $PROGRAM on a $CURRENT_YEAR computer running $OS. Sometimes these two goals are the same, but we should not assume that is always the case.
The closed-mindedness of faculty (my experience) (Score:1)
Two Examples:
1) When I was in Grade 9, I tried to convince the Computer Administrator to shift the server over to Linux. Even after countless talks and demos, he still insisted on Windows. Screw him. I left that school the next year.
2) Next School. This one actually uses some OS software, but they are extremely selective. I've tried
Re:The closed-mindedness of faculty (my experience (Score:1, Insightful)
When I was part of a group in a startup, it came time to decide what to put on the server. Since I didn't want to support it, and I was the only guy with Linux experience, I kept my mouth shut. So, we ran Windows, and I got the enjoyment of seeing the admin physically kick the s
The retardedness of faculty (my experience) (Score:2)
Eight examples:
1) When I was down at the IT department not too long ago, I found most of them hunt and pecking. Not a good sign, I assure you.
2) Related to the first example, I was down there to help them install Apache, PHP a
Re:The retardedness of faculty (my experience) (Score:1)
That's strange. After all, the lucrative income from the fast paced, high stakes world of public education usually attracts only the cream of the crop.
--saint
Re:The closed-mindedness of faculty (my experience (Score:2)
I'm doing my bit (Score:2)
A great philosopher once said: (Score:2)
Yeah, it was WordPerfect for me... (Score:4, Informative)
Remember WordPerfect? Actually when I was a kid it was WordStar, but I never used it, since we had Apple 2s in school, and Atari (400) at home. Whatever word processer those systems used is what I used, when I wasn't useing pen and paper.
By the time I reached high school they were braging about the computer labs which taught WordPerfect 5.1, which was exactly what industry was using.
Then came college and MSWord was on all the non-unix systems. I used that when I had to. More often I used Emacs, or when I needed something more complex FrameMaker was on the Unix systems, and I generally spent most of my time writing programs for Unix so I was on them anyway.
Then I got into the real world and I only had an X terminal on my desk so it was FrameMaker. Eventially they switched us to Outlook for email, but it was done via Citrix, and Word was avaiable there. There I mostly used either whatever was built into the tools we used (a code generation package) or ed. (yes ed, when you telnet to a system without curses you use ed)
At the next job it was gvim on windows. I had MSWord though, and sometimes had to use it. Standard was to export everything to rtf before distribution, though I'm the onlyone who actually did that. Likely as close to the real world as I've ever been.
Today I'm unemployed (though I might be called back to the last job if they find more money). I don't have MSWord, and see no reason to buy it. I have kWord and it works great. I have vi, and it works fine. I also have emacs, though I haven't touched it in a long time, and OpenOffice which I just installed cause some potential employer sent me a word document.
In short, they will make you learn something. Learn it because that is what you have to work with. In the real world exactly what you use will change, so be ready to learn new things.
Powerpoint is THE presentation SW (Score:1)
I *want* applications..and so do employers ;p (Score:1)
Re:I *want* applications..and so do employers ;p (Score:1)
Why Didn't You Decline to Convert?!? (Score:2)
should not come into it.
At worst, quality of [material and] presentation
would be evaluated.
BTW, LOTS of talented folks never completed school and/or univeristy... if you are one of them (but
only if you are...) then why not aim straight
for places that do interesting & challenging work
- if you have a hard copy (letter, printed eMail,
etc.) proof that "It's Powerpoint of nothing"
keep that to show more intelligent judges of your
work that you chose to walk away
print this thread (Score:1)
Reading (Score:2)
Sounds a lot like my HS math class.. (Score:1)
Editing formats vs Interchange formats (Score:2)
In the UK govt software market, people who make systems to support the Public Records Office standard - for archiving, ie sharing documents with our future selves - must support storing the original docume
I am (Score:2)
In November, I finally installed Debian on my (school supplied but owned by me) laptop and proceeded to use it for most of my school work. (I was initally delayed from doing this due to lack of NTLM-proxy support in Mozilla for non-win32).
I am yet to run in to a incident where I have been told to use <insert proprietary application here> instead o