Switching from Comp. Sci. to EE? 100
kedalion asks: "For the past five years, I've had a good job doing perl programming for the same company but I'm starting to worry. With the current trend in the marketplace to send programming jobs overseas, I'm beginning to wonder if my job will be 'exported' in the near future. With the glut of good programmers out of work, hiring salaries will be depressed as well. About a year ago, I started going back to school to finish my computer science degree. Now, I'm starting to wonder if it would be better to abandon the CS path, and go into either computer or electrical engineering. As an older student, this choice is made even more difficult because I would need to drop to part-time to take an engineering track. Also, I'm concerned that I would only qualify for an entry-level position if I took an engineering job. Anyone have thoughts/suggestions?"
I keep asking myself (Score:2)
Re:I keep asking myself (Score:1)
no, seriously.
globalization is what it is. as a 'member of the global community', you have rights too, and right now, that includes the right to live in new places in search of work.
Re:I keep asking myself (Score:1)
Somehow if we can't compete with the Dutch plus shipping costs I don't think we should be in that market.
At the same time an enemy (or at least good ally of the Axis of Evil) that has no standards for work and environment, and happily butchers it's citizens for protesting (not for a while though) and imprisons our students as spys is a good ally in the global economy.
Since C
Relevant article on the topic (Score:4, Informative)
High-Tech Degrees Don't Guarantee Jobs [iwon.com]
House wiring... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:House wiring... (Score:1)
Try again
(and yes yes, I know you still have to wire up the wireless, just buggin
Re:House wiring... (Score:2)
premature (Score:2)
There are quite a few disadvantages to outsourcing - think management, documentation, specification, lack of feedback, etc.
I'm just suggesting that you do some real research before jumping to the conclusion that US programmers are up shit creek without a paddle.
Re:premature (Score:1)
Don't Even Think About It! (Score:4, Interesting)
I happen to know two EE people, one is changing careers and wants to become a dentist and the other is hopelessly looking for work.
Re:Don't Even Think About It! (Score:5, Insightful)
I work for a consulting company that has half their staff in India, i.e. we actively outsource EE work there. Becoming an EE isn't going to protect you from this trend. Doing ANYTHING in high-tech is probably open to being sent over-seas at some level.
The only reason I still have a position (I live in Sillycon Valley) is because I DO have 25 years of experience. I do architecture work, project lead work, etc. I have LOTS of friends who are out of work, and have been for a year or better.
I can safely say that I would recommend someone going for a degree OTHER than EE or CS for the time being. What EVER you do - the fact that you've got some practical experience is going to help you...but the life-long career in EE or CS is really a harder choice than it was when I got into it.
Good Luck!
Re:Don't Even Think About It! (Score:2)
Great; just what I want to hear from my dentist: (Score:1)
Why is an EE safer? (Score:4, Informative)
From what I've seen, there might be more interest in offshoring EE's since they command larger salaries than CS or no major Software Developers. If you want something safe, go into Health Care, sales or politics. Everything that doesn't require your physical presence in the US can and will be offshored without some legislative fix.
Asia has a booming number of Engineers who are doing work that US Engineers used to.
maybe you should ... (Score:4, Funny)
just a thought.
Re:maybe you should ... (Score:2)
And EE's Won't be Outsourced? (Score:2)
Space Boom (Score:1)
I have almost decided to completely switch to EE/CompE because of this. Lately i've been thinking about what will happen if bush's plans to go to the moon/mars actually happen. There will be a huge amount of job openings in those fields. I think it would be great for me to have a job relating to space. The only reason
Re:Space Boom (Score:1, Interesting)
Basically, you take graduate-level electives instead of "normal" electives in your undergraduate degree. You're allowed to double-count those graduate-level credits toward your MS.
Ask your potential schools about such programs, and think about getting a minor in C.S
Re:Space Boom (Score:2)
BTW, citizenship is also mandatory, you need sec.clearence to work on most of the projects at NASA or space contractors, such as Boeing, Lockheed, etc.
Re:Space Boom (Score:2)
As a software engineer at Johnson Space Center, I just wanted to offer some clarification on this. If you want to be a literal rocket scientist or other NASA researcher, yes you would need a Ph.D. For jobs like software development, system administration, etc. you would be working for one of the contactors and typically have a BS degree. A Masters or Ph.D. would be a nice plus but most people in these positions do not have one. During the IT boom I knew someone who had no degree at all who was doing Jav
Re:Space Boom (Score:1)
Marketing is where its at for several reasons anyways. Marketing classes have more (and hot) girls in them. Business/Marketing requires about 15-20 hours of class and a little bit of homework, C
Re:Space Boom (Score:1)
Anything in IT that requires that hands be physically placed on the product already in the customers' hands (i.e. desktop support) and can't be performed remotely. Everything else will be either outsourced by many companies or a dead end.
How good are you... (Score:2)
Be honest, how good are you? I know a few programers who shouldn't be programers. I know a lot of programers that are really good with the first technology they learned, but get them off of C on a 68010(embedded) and they are lost. If you going to be that type, only useful in a small set of circumstances get your degree in something that won't go away or change. (I don't know what that would be though. Perhaps hebrew-english translation?)
Assuming you are flexable, what are you good at. All the EE
Re:How good are you... (Score:1)
Re:How good are you... (Score:2)
My Grand Dad lived this philosophy. He was a police officer for 25 years. He retired from the force and became a general contractor building houses. His son-in-law (my Dad) picked this up from him. My Dad had at least three careers. He did Elec
Re:How good are you... (Score:2)
That's why I switched to CmpeE from CS before my freshman year even started. Now I *do* actually do software (well, portable ANSI C firmware really). But half my coursework was doing hardware (chip design at the transistor level and in Verilog) and designing complete embedded systems (hw and sw). So I can deal well enough with the hardware guys and could pretty easily jump to that side if need-be (actually that was my preferred path, but I didn't find
Re:How good are you... (Score:1)
BTW, a change of path this early would look pretty bad on a resume, as it would mean that you have no idea what you want to do, and therefore you're either not good enough or not passionate enough about it.
Re:How good are you... (Score:1)
I agree with the second part of your post, it's really the potential employer's *perception* of the indecision that looks bad.
Re:How good are you... (Score:1)
--
I wouldn't count on this either, incidentally,
for several reasons:
#1 - Hiring of experienced people from abroad willing to work for entry pay. (Will kill entry-level) [registered nurses]
#2 - Illegal immigrants (nursing home attendants)
#3 - Anything that can be outsourced, will be outsourced; this is specifically in regards to Radiology
#4 - HMO's killing your salary, not making it worth your while to study medicine (overall).
I don't recommend EE (Score:1)
Re:I don't recommend EE (Score:1)
What about trades? Electricians, plumbers, carpenters, drywallers, bricklayers -- all of those guys get paid good money and are in demand. And you can't off-shore hands-on work like that.
Better be SKILLED trade (Score:1)
Re:I don't recommend EE (Score:1)
I wonder, are electrical engineering jobs still suffering from tech boom days? There were a lot of people I saw in my classes that wanted to go into EE becuase it made good money and it was a really hot job market at the time.
Finish your CS degree (Score:4, Insightful)
What has happened is the
If you are willing to relocate to anywhere in the country CS jobs are not hard to find. But having a degree is an absolute must. Companies are just throwing away every resume that doesn't have a degree written on it. So, if you like CS more, finish it up. If you really like EE a whole lot more than CS, switch it up. Do what you like. There are jobs for people who finish college.
Re:Finish your CS degree (Score:1)
Re:Finish your CS degree (Score:1)
Administration? (Score:2)
quit worrying ... (Score:1)
computer programming isn't about -persistent maintenance- and blagging.
its about creating new applications for the processor and its peripherals.
learn a new language, stay on top of interesting hardware developments, always work outside your steady job to improve your skills (i.e. don't just rely on it for -work- and $$$), and stay motivated.
there is a glut of programmers in certain markets, but an ocean of markets that have yet to even be -explored- for the talents of computer scienc
Get a grip!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, there is outsourcing going on. Yes, there is a completely real, entirely serious issue here. But the panic that's set in over the last 6 months that every high-tech job in the US is about to be packed off to India is insane. It's completely counterproductive and has a nasty undertone of racism, to boot.
People need to grasp the fact that 1998 isn't coming back, and that you're not going to get paid a fortune to reboot servers or do Flash animations. That doesn't mean that no one will ever write code again east of Calcutta.
Re:Get a grip!!! (Score:2, Interesting)
First, output is increasing due to productivity, managers are using employee fear to not hire yet, this will probably hold for up March-June if demand for goods stays healthy. This happens every upturn, and will continue until execs get worried about losing market share to others who hire (or spend on capex).
Second, there is a shift in production to India and it will last a long time, but right now it is in a bubble (figure that it's 1998
Arbitrage? (Score:2)
Arbitrage is cool!
I know it's your sig, but does it have something to do with outsourcing, anyway?
Re:Arbitrage? (Score:1)
Re:Get a grip!!! (Score:2)
Add this to the cost of doing business here in the states, and
Re:Get a grip!!! (Score:1)
Well, sort of... (Score:4, Insightful)
But for you to set up the strawman that "*every* high-tech job in the US is about to be packed off to India" and knock it down with the assurance that it won't actually be every single one isn't much of an argument.
Yes, of course, there are still going to be programmers in the US. There are still steel workers and, for that matter, farmers and coal miners, but I wouldn't want to be one of them.
People are right to view this as a genuine structural change that has implications for career-related decisions such as a college major. They can do so without being guilty of "panicking".
I think the question is quite sensible, and "get a grip" and "stop panicking" aren't very useful answers.
And I think your "nasty undertone of racism" remark is bunk. You can always find an example of name-calling when people get frustrated and label an entire argument "racism, racism!", but that's mostly a red herring used to shut people up. If the jobs were going to Moscow instead of Bangalore, people would be just as upset and making the same arguments ("we're better than they are", "their quality isn't good", "they can't communicate", "our bosses are greedy and short-sighted", etc.) The issues would be the same.
And many of the most upset are Asian Americans (both East Asian and South Asian) who are having their previously elite status seriously eroded by large numbers of those they thought they left behind in the Old Country.
I don't see anyone doing anything wrong here. It's just the natural balancing of supply and demand at work, but it's a whopper of a change that people need to factor into their personal plans.
Re:Well, sort of... (Score:3, Interesting)
Absolutely -- "get a grip" was intended (as I tried to make clear) as a prelude to thoughtful calculation, not as the last word on the subject.
But for you to set up the strawman that "*every* high-tech job in the US is about to be packed off to India" a
Re:Well, sort of... (Score:2)
Yes, absolutely. (From your mouth to God's ear, as they say.)
Of course, the US is the predominant economy in the world right now, but that's not making life much easier for workers in the manufacturing sector. Most of them really do need to try to find something else to do like the farmers before them and perhaps a large percentage of programmers now.
But my intention isn't to nitpick. I
Re:Get a grip!!! (Score:1)
Half of the headlines there are for companies outsourcing to India. Damn.
I just got my BSCS about 6 months ago and I'm currently working at Taco Bell to pay the bills after failing to find even an entry-level position in the greater Seattle area. If I'm lucky, I'll be able to scrape together some contract jobs or a tech-support position to work my way into the industry, but I'm
Blame Bin Laden for the outsourcing wave (Score:2)
But then 9/11, anthrax, terrorism fear, came and they became full of fear, US weren't so nice anymore and they came back to their home country.
Almost all people i knew that was living in US came back fearing terrorism, you probably didn't fell that effect but in the 3rd world we felt very well, every one that was working in the US suddelly showed up.
So, with all t
Re:Blame Bin Laden for the outsourcing wave (Score:1)
I think the Indian software companies were driven in large part by Indians who made millions in the US in the '90's. Either they went back, or they invested thei
Re:Get a grip!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
That's what business people do. That's why we had record growth last quarter but no jobs.
While there has been some racist undertones are the part of the unintelligent who have heard of this issue, no one with half a clue would b
Re:Get a grip!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Several years ago, when I was going for my degree in Electronics (graduated with an Associates, had the option of going for a BS in EE, but didn't bother), the Department of Labor was sayi
Re:Get a grip!!! (Score:2)
I have to assume when you talk about a 'college degree' we're talking about a Bachelor's degree. You're not going to find a BS in nanotech or GE; not only are they still areas that are still only the subjects of heavy research (PhD or ambitious MS stuff) but they also require
Re:Get a grip!!! (Score:1)
learn from the movie Office Space (Score:2)
Seriously, I keep thinking about learning to be a bricklayer. More fun than digging ditches, and more money. It's like working with giant LEGOs - how cool is _that_?!
Re:learn from the movie Office Space (Score:4, Informative)
I did carpentry for several months after I last the next to last job. It is fun at times and I learned a lot. However I don't want to go back. Every day you are outside doing physical labor. 95 degrees, and you get to run in the sun carrying a heavy load. Then winter comes and you get to truge through a foot of snow when it is -10. (Our cut off for working was -20, and then only because the power tools quit working, humans can work colder than that if they have to)
Bricklayer is worse. Bricks are heavy, and you get to carry them up a ladder, and lay them one at a time. Looks easy enough, but it is hard on the back.
There is a reason most construction crews have a lot of young kids with one old guy watching over it all. The old guy is lucky to have a body that can take it, along with the ability to supervise (He doesn't do quite as much physical labor, but few of the kids will beat him in any move materials race when he puts his mind to it.) The kids still have a young enough body that they can abuse it in the trades. PLumbing and electric seem to be exceptions to this rule, old guys are fairly common in those trades.
I'm not being sexist when I use the term him, and I'm not using it in a gender netural manner. Nearly all the people in construction are men. Genetics means that women cannot keep up hormons (testorosterone?) ensure that they just don't get a body that can do the job. You will see less girls on the job. OTOH, it is a sexy job, so the few girls you do see are staring at you.
Re:learn from the movie Office Space (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Engineering degrees are more versatile (Score:2)
I have been in the work force for 30 years and I have observed that a degree in engineering is about the most valuable B.S. you can have. It is assumed if you can do engineering you can probably do just about anything (i.e., management, sales, teaching, etc.).
On the other hand, a B.S. in CompSci is a good degree but graduates are pigeon-holed as computer people.
Disclaimer: I have an engineering degree.
Re:Engineering degrees are more versatile (Score:1)
Most of Elec Engineering is Software (Score:2)
The other comments about EE's being outsourced can be true as well. I know we have setup design centers in China, Japan, and Europe. However we are still hiring EE's at my company... but we
Why are you doing this? (Score:2)
Any other reason to switch? (Score:2)
At the same time, there are no guarantees...
With your EE degree and CS experience a whole new set of fields open up for you. I've noticed even for programming work, my EE degree opens doo
Why does a degree mater (Score:2)
Yes the days of sneezing on a piece of paper - calling it a business plan, and getting rich are over. Now the tech industry requires hard work. If you are only in it for the money - go find something else. If this is what you like to do there are jobs around, there always will be, and you can make a nice living d
Re:Why does a degree mater (Score:2)
Now you don't have access to a full C Standard Library - but you do for the most important parts of your job.
How would you describe what verilog looks like ?
EE Ends up being CS in the End (Score:2)
I advised her since we live close to a good gaming college that she should persue game programming which will be near impossible to export to other countries. This is due to the fact that many of those places software jobs are being sent to are culturally incompatible with the ga
Re:EE Ends up being CS in the End (Score:2)
Re:EE Ends up being CS in the End (Score:1)
The defense industry is pretty safe from this too, for obvious reasons. I work in this industry as a progammer. Budget cuts are another matter, however.
I also have experience doing system adminstration, and could fall back on that if the need arises. Scripting and programming could be outsourced, sure, but it's hard to diagnose a hardware error from India.
Pretty much
Network Admin going on to EE (Score:2)
But Ive kept a very close eye on microcontroller markets, their costs and abilities, the dev kits, software kits including running Linu
What do you like to do? (Score:1)
Sure, if you like CS and continue at it, you may find some things difficult. But at least you'll be happy some of the time. Doing something you dislike just for the salary is a good way to be unhappy all of the time.
That won't save you... (Score:4, Insightful)
1) The ability to network
2) The ability to detect and understand business trends within your company and within your industry
3) The ability to put forth convincing proposals for your solution, whether that solution is buying particular hardware, settling on a platform, or selling yourself
4) The skill of shopping yourself around constantly, even if you are satisfied with your current position
5) etc.
The key here is not that companies are shipping your jobs to other countries, it is that they are making a product for the lowest cost possible, which is what they must do to sell it to consumers or other businesses. If you can present yourself as a low cost/return ratio, then you will always have a job if you are constantly and consistantly involved in looking for one.
Don't buy into all this nonsense about your ideal work being shipped out. Understand that it will be, and then become the person that the company must hire in order to manage that outsorcing. You can spin this is many ways, but there's always a job for a good worker, or at least a good communicator.
-Adam
On your sig [off topic] (Score:1)
I'm curious... I've always learnerd that with power comes money and vice versa. Now I guess I would agree that RMS&FSF are about power, but could you please point out to me where the money comes in for them? IMHO, the only reason why the free software foundation appears to be after power is to protect its ideals, which are more or less about freedom.
Care to comment on this?
Quit and start your own business (Score:2)
Re:Quit and start your own business (Score:2)
The advice is good but hard to act upon when one is broke and a family needs feeding. Maybe the risks are too great for the average family man. Crazy risks, crazy like a fox risks. Maybe risks that are too great not to take.
Re:Quit and start your own business (Score:2)
If I wanted to I could go back and finish I now. But my heart is not in it anymore. Everything has changed from 15 years ago.
They have industrial technology degrees that look like a lot of fun, because you play in the machine shop a lot. But the job prospects are zero.
I think that nursing (as an earlier poster mentioned) is where its at -- if you can stand to be around sick people as a ca
what the professional societies say (Score:2)
Kids these days (Score:2)
My thoughts are that a fresh graduate is by definition only qualified for an entry-level position in their particular discipline. Gone are the days of 23-year-olds with ridiculous titles like "senior engineer". In the real world, you gotta pay your dues.
A perspective (Score:1)
Advice from someone with BOTH degrees (Score:2)
The reason why isn't because I think there will be more EE jobs than CS jobs. I don't have a crystal ball, so it is hard to guess what is going to happen. However, I have noticed that an EE degree (or an engineering degree, in general) opens a lot of doors in a lot of industries, compared to a CS deg
Re:Advice from someone with BOTH degrees (Score:1)
Consider an MSEE (Score:1)
High-tech jobs are being exported (Score:1)
My experience in studying both... (Score:1)
At Drexel, where I attended grad school for a year and was a teaching assistant, the EE and CompEng departments were one and the same. I found from teaching my undergraduate courses (a VHDL lab), this gave the students a much lower quality of education. They couldn't program