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IP Over 1394/Firewire? 52

Posted by Cliff from the bridging-the-connection-gap dept.
Chanc_Gorkon asks: "Just like to ask the Slashdot community if anyone has a set of step-by-step instructions for connecting two computers via IP over Firewire. Mac OS X Panther supports IP over Firewire, as does Windows XP. I would like to hook my PowerBook to a Windows XP machine, and be able to access the Internet and share files over the link. I am shooting for near full functionality, but the closest I came in my initial trials was being able to set static IP's per Firewire port, and do a FTP between the machines. If I can get this working, I figure this will be a good way of getting my PowerBook on the office network, without having to have a drop put in."
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IP Over 1394/Firewire? More

IP Over 1394/Firewire?

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  • ICS (Score:4, Informative)

    by ag3n7 ( 442539 ) on Tuesday January 27, 2004 @10:05PM (#8107913)
    You need to set up Windows Internet Connection Sharing on the firewire port to allow for that connection to use your LAN drop.

    http://www.homenethelp.com/ics/index.asp can help you [homenethelp.com]
    • I am guessing that the Windows machine is connected to the network via Ethernet, and there is a single Ethernet port in your work area that a little Ethernet cable plugs into on one side, the other side going into the Ethernet jack on your Windows machine.

      Go to Best Buy, or Circuit City, or Frys and buy a small Linksys 4 port 10/100 switch for about $40. Buy an extra Ethernet cable or two. Get a crossover Ethernet cable just in case, save yourself a trip in you need it - buy a red one so you don't have t
      • Switches and hubs are a no no. Yes they can tell. I can make it hard by natting the to and spoofing the MAC address of the PC on the switch...but that wasn't the point of the post. I need to move massive amounts of files. Sharing works ethernet jack over the firewire is just an extra item. The primary is I want to move stuff....really fast. Firewire beats a 10/100 switch.
        • Gigabit networking?

          Adding a gigabit NIC to the Wintel box would be trivial, but I am not sure about availability of gigabit networking on your specific instance of Mac hardware - but if it works you can get a crossover cable to run between the two cards (no intermediate hub/switch necessary) and just hardcode the ip addresses for those cards. It becomes your own little private sub-net, and I believe that once you have done that it is also trivial to share the Wintel box's connection to the outside world.
          • What employer would buy you a gig card for your desktop? Only stupid ones right now. The desktop at work is off limits for modification as well. This is a COMPANY machine man! When firewire machines come on campus, it would be far easier to setup firewire for sharing internet access.

  • It's no different to any other interface. (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I've connected my Late 2001 iBook 600MHz to a friends Shuttle PC running Windows XP Pro, without issue. I turned on XP's Internet connection sharing (which includes a DHCP server), told the iBook to dynamically find an IP, and it worked.

    It's all just basic troubleshooting from the point you're at.
  • Gimme a break. File this under "More Stupid Ask Slashdot Tricks".

  • my experience (Score:3, Informative)

    by heldlikesound ( 132717 ) on Tuesday January 27, 2004 @10:11PM (#8107966) Homepage
    I recently networked two iBooks together using IP over FireWire and was surprised to discover i was only getting about 20k a second, it was quite strange. Anyway, as for HOW to do it, it's simply an network interface option under the Network system pref panel. Anyone else get it working, but not get the speed the were expecting?

    • Re:my experience (Score:2, Informative)

      by CptChipJew ( 301983 )
      I've connected my desktop G4 to my PowerBook a few times.

      It's actually pretty fast. 20mb/sec or more. Getting speeds that slow is probably atypical.
  • If you want to get your PowerBook on line at the office don't waste your time with firewire, just buy a cheap hub.

    Use the right tool for the job. Firewire probably can be coersed into working, but it was not designed as a netwroking tool. Thus it will definately will be a lot bigger pain in the butt than simply using standard network tools.

    I speak for e experience of trying to get an SLIP connection going between my desktop and my HP 200LX back in the day. I also wasted time with an old notebook and la

    • Re:Buy a $25 hub/switch (Score:4, Informative)

      by kommakazi ( 610098 ) on Tuesday January 27, 2004 @10:27PM (#8108127)
      You are living in the stone age (or at least under a stone) my friend, if FireWire wasn't a viable medium for networking, why is support for it built in to both Windows XP and Mac OS X??? With built it support, it hardly requires ary "coersing" as you say. Just because you had some bad experience with SLIP back in the day doesn't prove anything about FireWire's networking capability/functionality. FireWire is much faster than a standard 10/100 connection, so it's use could be very advantageous in a 2 computer setup tranferring files. I think you are the one who needs to take advantage of these changed times.
      • On the other hand, the poster does state that they want to access the internet, so the local link is not going to be the bottleneck.

        The grandparent is correct. If you can't put in a new drop, you should get a small hub or switch.

        If transfer speed is an issue, a new gigabit ethernet board can be had for under $20.
        • I realize that it's intended for internet usage, but I was trying to tout the general advantages of using a FireWire connection to the parent of my first post.
          As for the grandparent being correct, I beg to differ...why should the poster go out and buy a small hub or switch when he already has the FireWire cable needed to get the job done in a perfectly acceptable manner? Why would it be "correct" to buy a small hub or switch?
          Once again, about the gigabit ethernet board, why go buy more hardware you alread
          • It's clear that the poster would prefer ethernet, except s/he is unable (or unwilling) to install a second drop, and wants to use FW as a replacement. Just because it can be done doesn't mean that it's a good idea, and there are significant disadvantages to using FW instead of ethernet.

            For example, you're dependent upon another computer, which is far more likely to crash than a simple hub or switch, you have to use NAT to communicate with other systems on the LAN, and it's more difficult to get set up, and
            • 1) I don't see anywhere where it's "clear" that they'd prefer to use ethernet. They merely mention it at the end as a last resort to get a new drop put in.
              2) If he's doing this at work, he's more than likely going to be dependent on a computer that will be on the same desk as his laptop. If it crashes, he can restart it because he will be sitting right there.
              3) Enabling NAT is by no means difficult. You simply check a box or click a button and it's turned on. Wow that was hard. 4) Setting up the FireWire
              • 1) Poster says, "...this will be a good way of getting my PowerBook on the office network, without having to have a drop put in." Clearly, this is an alternative to using plain ethernet.
                2) That does not make it less frustrating if/when the system crashes. Furthermore, were the poster to use a hub/switch, they would still have one system with network access if the other crashes, instead of being cut off until the host system fscks/scandisks.
                3) NAT is a huge disadvantage if you want to use a LAN, not an advan
            • I was also considering the cost to the american workforce while well paid engineers and coders waste their time answering a $25 question for some hack.

              I set up a FW bridge between two of my boxes in less than 5 minutes of pecking around in the systems control panels. It's Windows and Macs, for pete's sake. This is ok, next, next, finish type stuff.

              I'd suggest going with the parent's suggestion. You aren't going to like it once you get it set up. Sure, save money now but it'll cost you later in electricity

        • Re:Buy a $25 hub/switch (Score:2, Informative)

          by mewyn ( 663989 )
          What if you can't get an IP for the network?

          Some companies may just have some totally backwards policies on assigning IP addresess. For example, where I work you need to get a FQDN before you are able to get an IP from DHCP, or if you are unlucky enough to be in 90% of the complex, you have to have a statically assigned IP address. You have to go through and call the help desk to get the IP or FQDN before you can hook up the device. In a case like this, if you don't want to be hassled about the IP, you
      • Yes, if parallel ports aren't meant for networking, then why are the drivers for p port ethernet devices in windows?

        He certainly is living in the stone age.
    • "If you want to get your PowerBook on line at the office don't waste your time with firewire, just buy a cheap hub."

      This is not insightful. Some of us need that 400/800mbits of bandwidth.

  • What version of OS X? (Score:4, Informative)

    by a.koepke ( 688359 ) on Tuesday January 27, 2004 @10:18PM (#8108040)
    Are you running the latest version of OS X. OS X 10.3 (Panther) has the IP over Firewire built-in. Before that it was available as an extension. If you are not running 10.3 then update and try again.

    Also just saw this nice tutorial [macdevcenter.com] about this. Have a look and make sure you have done all the required steps. Also have a look though the comments.
  • in windows xp you just turn on internet connection sharing and bridge the 1394 and ethernet addresses. set up the IP of your windows machine as your gateway on your mac.

    done.

  • Why Drop? (Score:1, Redundant)

    by MindStalker ( 22827 )
    I don't understand how is running a firewire line between two computers easier than running an RJ45 line? I'm guessing your RJ45 is already used up though receiving your internet connection? So get a simple hub. Case closed.

    • Re:Why Drop? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by bluedream ( 676879 )
      Last time I checked, Firewire was 400 Mbps... quite a bit faster than 100 Mbps ethernet. Probably kicks ass with file transfers.
      • Firewire and Ethernet use different methods to measure speed.
        Firewire can move data at 200 Mbps in each direction (200 Mbps Full Duplex).
    • Firewire is far faster than 100 base T ethernet.

    • Re:Why Drop? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Mournblade ( 72705 )
      Except some companies (including the giant east-coast bank that just acquired my company) do not allow hubs or switches at the desktop for security reasons. I confess that I never asked what the specific policy was, since I was in charge of wiring the space before we moved into it 3 years ago. I specified 4 cat5 drops to each workstation (office and cube), with two punched down to the phone system, and two to the network. If necessary, we could steal a 3rd drop for the LAN, but so far, 2 has been enough.
      • Ok, so instead of going through the proper channels you just suggest cheating. This has this exact same security risk as installing a hub but simply trying to go around the rules. And its not like you can really claim you didn't understand, if you can figure out how to get it to work, you obviously did understand. Good luck finding another job.
        • In no way did I suggest cheating. I said that we wired the space for extra capacity, giving us an extra drop per workstation if needed. The new company is aware of the infrastructure here. They were told about it in planning meetings, and they saw it for themselves when we moved over to their network. ALL drops on the LAN are patched into the switches and monitored. If there's anything I don't understand, it's the *why* of the policy, not the *what*. I confess that I've never asked why they have a pro

  • Try this (Score:3, Informative)

    by $exyNerdie ( 683214 ) on Tuesday January 27, 2004 @10:45PM (#8108339) Homepage Journal
    Try this [macdevcenter.com]

    If nothing else works, try joining the Apple Developer connection. The link can be found here [apple.com]

  • Why Firewire? Some suggestions. (Score:5, Informative)

    by cbiffle ( 211614 ) on Tuesday January 27, 2004 @10:55PM (#8108427)
    A lot of posts have been of the form:

    "Why are you using Firewire for networking? Buy a hub!"

    A couple of points.
    1. A lot of us have Firewire cables lying around but not hubs. Therefore, Firewire: $0. Switch: $25.
    2. Firewire has the potential to be really fast. I know some of the third-party Firewire networking solutions for Mac used to sell well simply because they were 4x the speed of Ethernet -- which makes a big difference if you're transferring, say, massive TIFF proofs. (I personally have not gotten this working, see below.)

    However:
    1. It's a Mac. If you've got a free Ethernet port on another machine, you don't need a hub/switch. Macs detect crossover-vs.-normal UTP cables automatically.
    2. Last I checked, the Firewire IP implementation in Panther wasn't terribly standard -- or, at least, I couldn't get any of my Linux or BSD boxes to recognize it. Might work with XP; should work with another Mac.
    • Firewire has the potential to be really fast.

      Point to point, yes. Using one of the machines as a router to the internet, the internet won't get any faster than that 10bT/100bT drop. Unless the original poster is dealing with enormous files (say video) the hassle involved in getting this to work is worth way more than the $25 or so to buy a blinkin switch.

  • Now you just need to set up the internet sharing. Try using a proxy server ( analogx.com has a good free once for windows) on the machine that's directly into the ethernet drop, binding the proxy to the address you assigned to the Firewire connection (You did use a private IP, right?)

    You've got IP over Firewire, you just need routing/proxying services. This seems to have mislead some people's responses.

  • Easy to do... (Score:5, Informative)

    by dr00g911 ( 531736 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @01:07AM (#8109548)
    I've had a setup similar to what the poster's looking for for quite some time now [slashdot.org]

    The basics (under Panther, similar under Jaguar):

    - XP *loves* to bridge all of your networking connections, and it treats firewire as one. Don't let it. Delete the bridging node if it's in your Net Connections panel.

    - Use the Internet Connection Sharing wizard, and set it to share your ethernet over the 1394 connection (firewire in the civilized world).

    - On the Mac, go to your network control panel (prefpane, whatever), Show --> Network Port Configurations

    - Add a New --> Built-in Firewire connection

    - Set it up for DHCP and you should be good to go. You might also disable your built in ethernet, airport and dialup ports for this configuration if you want an easier time debugging the connection.

    The connection works great between my Shuttle box and my Powerbooks. Close to gigabit speeds for local filesharing, speeds you'd expect for 'Net sharing.

    Once the price of gigabit hubs comes down, however, I'll probably never use this connection type again. If my rendering farm gets big enough to require that type of constant bandwidth, I'll probably go gigE or fiber.

  • Use FireWire disk mode (Score:5, Informative)

    by gotr00t ( 563828 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @01:11AM (#8109578) Journal
    Though ethernet over 1394 is possible, and is capable of a good speed connection, a better method would be to just use Firewire disk mode on the powerbook - all Apple computers with firewire port come with it.

    First, make sure that both computers are linked by firewire, then, reboot the powerbook, holding down 'T' as it is starting up. It should give you the firewire logo on the screen, meaning that it is in FW disk mode. Then, simply use the powerbook as a firewire hard disk (SBP2).

  • Very good idea ! See my journal (Score:3, Informative)

    by forged ( 206127 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @03:31AM (#8110314) Homepage Journal
    I wrote my own experience with IP over 1394 some time ago, you can read it here [slashdot.org]. It's working just fine on my case, slightly better than FastEthernet with ~150Mbits/s practical transfer rates, but not quite as good as GigabitEthernet. If you have a couple of Macs with built-in GigabitEthernet, then you'll be better off plugging a crossover Ethernet cable (Cat6 for Gigabit) between them, configure IP, and enjoy even greater speed.

  • Huh? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by molo ( 94384 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @03:49AM (#8110381) Journal
    If you could ftp from one machine to the next over firewire, then IP is working. Sounds like you need to figure out how to setup a NAT or HTTP Proxy. You're barking up the wrong tree.

    -molo

  • Dear Slashdot (Score:3, Funny)

    by Zork the Almighty ( 599344 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @07:36AM (#8111210) Journal
    I figured I'd save everyone the trouble of writing their own question, and just post my template.

    I was wondering, has anyone here done $COMMON TASK$ with $INAPPROPRIATE DEVICE$ ? If so, how well did it work ? What problems did you encounter ? I am aware of $APPROPRIATE DEVICE$ for $COMMON TASK$, but I really want to try $INAPPROPRIATE DEVICE$, because of $UNLIKELY TO BE REALIZED BENEFITS$. Thanks.

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