Catch up on stories from the past week (and beyond) at the Slashdot story archive

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
The Almighty Buck Government The Courts The Internet News

Compensation for Bandwidth Costs is Extortion? 865

Tha_Big_Guy23 asks: "According to this article, a man who created a website for his local Sheriff's department is being charged with extortion. This was caused by taking down the website after repeated attempts to get compensation from the county to cover the bandwidth costs. As a result, all his personal computer property, and company computer property was seized and he was jailed."
"After being jailed he was charged with extortion, larceny by conversion, using a computer to commit a crime, and obstruction of justice. This website explains in more detail the circumstances surrounding the situation. Has anyone on Slashdot ever had an experience where a client was unwilling to compensate you for either your work, and/or the resources required to do your work?"

While the end result of this situation is a shame, let this situation serve as a warning for those of you who work, without a contract in place. While it is the general hope that people will behave in an honorable manner, sometimes this is just not the case, and contracts exist to protect both parties, when things go sour.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Compensation for Bandwidth Costs is Extortion?

Comments Filter:
  • by The I Shing ( 700142 ) * on Friday March 05, 2004 @03:54PM (#8478179) Journal
    This guy gives website designers a bad name. I'd say he definitely belongs in prison. 3.5 million hits per month? Oh, yeah, right. I get the feeling that this guy was planning to pull this stunt all along, but I bet he wasn't counting on getting arrested. Another clue is the fact that he set the domain name up as his own property so the town would be unable to switch to another server. What a noble thing to do. And then there's his final bill... $300,000?! To offset the "huge expense" of running the website? WHAT huge expense? How much was he paying for hosting? DIdn't want to lose any more money? Why didn't he just set it up on a different server and let the town pay for it themselves? I think this guy wants to the town to pay for the loss he's taken running his business in the first place, and shutting the server down while handing over such a massive bill is, IMHO, extortion, and should be treated as such. I hope they throw the book at him, and throw it at him hard, to serve as a warning to anyone else thinking of pulling a stunt like this. Whew, I'm outta breath. Gotta go lay down for a minute.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:01PM (#8478283)
    This man is being arrested because he refused to work for free.

    'Richard's Running Wolf Inc. operated the sheriff's office Internet site for nearly three years as a free service before shutting it down three months ago because the county wouldn't pay him.'

    He operated the web site for free for three years. He probably hosted it as his own expense, too.

    I get the feeling he designed and managed this website at his own expense, expecting payment. After a few years of no payment, he finally closed the website.

    So, let me get this straight. He managed this web site on his own, withough compensation, then closed it. And because he mentioned that he needed to be paid to keep it open, that's extortion.

  • by reverend0 ( 560833 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:02PM (#8478295) Homepage Journal
    Agreed. This is horrible. Throw him in jail. I started out feeling honestly bad for this guy, but the further I get through the article the more I see that he is a waste of our good breathable oxygen. 3.5 mill hits. hahahahaha. Well let's look at it differently. Hosting costs: $100 / month = $3600 for 3 years Design costs: $5000 Interest: $292,000 I think he is figuring in uncle sam too.
  • by BladeRider ( 24966 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:03PM (#8478319) Homepage
    This rant gets modded interesting? The guy created the web site for free. He maintained it for free. He paid the domain name registration. The site is his to pull or sell as he sees fit. If it is really important to the sherrif's office, then they should be willing to pay for it. If not, they're free to do just what they did, put up a new site and create their own content.

    Abusing the law by arresting this guy, just makes the LEO's look like the extortionists.
  • by Superfreaker ( 581067 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:06PM (#8478353) Homepage Journal
    This site is ranked 4,978,900 in traffic.

    It never broke the top 100,000, so there is no way it had 3 million hits, unless each page contained 1 million invisible gif images.

    http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_detail s? q=&url=macombsheriff.com

  • by corporatemutantninja ( 533295 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:06PM (#8478354)
    If an Indian firm had built the site, some podunk sheriff couldn't abuse his authority over a contract dispute. Offshoring: good for civil liberties.
  • by Nick Driver ( 238034 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:09PM (#8478390)
    Well, that does sound a bit absurd, but I sure betcha the copy of the site in the Wayback machine will probably surpass that in this one single day thanks to ericspinder's helpful little url link in the parent :-)
  • by Performer Guy ( 69820 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:09PM (#8478391)
    On ballance this is blatant abuse of power by the Sherrif's office. The guy paid for the domain and ran if for 3 years for free. What you believe w.r.t. what was said about payment should be decided in a civil court. As it is the Sherrif is using their power to force the issue and screwing a guy who did them a favor for 3 years. The Sherrif is incredibly claiming that they were doing this guy a favor by letting him host their site. No, their site was chicken shit without this guy. He build it into the famous property it became and paid for the frikin domain. They should be ashamed of themselves for doing this to the guy. Now they have all his computer gear impounded and he has to arrange bail and hire a lawyer while faving multiple felony charges.

    This Sherrif's office are scum, no two ways about it.
  • by EriDay ( 679359 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:10PM (#8478413)
    No he didn't take anything away from the sheriff, the web site was his property. If the sheriff valued the web site, he should have had a contract that spelled out ownership. Since he hadn't given any money for the site, how can he claim ownership? It shows that the sheriff valued the site a $0.

    It's the sheriff who unjustly took property away.
  • Come on, 300,000 bucks to run a web site? And he did it out of the kindness of his heart? 300,000 of his own money to "promote his business".

    RTFA again:

    A year or so ago, Richard started talking with Hackel's staff about earning income from the site. An attempt was made to secure advertisements for the site with profits going to Richard, but Hackel said that generated only a small response.

    Richard then demanded $300,000 of taxpayer dollars from the county. Richard said the money would offset the huge expense of running the Web site for the 33 months.


    300,000 for running a site for 2 and a half years? Even if you have your own server, with a T1 line it wouldn't add up to that. The guy lied and tried to cheat the dept out of cash. He got what he deserved.

    Please, RTFA again and take off the tin-foil hat.
  • RTFA (Score:3, Interesting)

    by manWorkSucks ( 745760 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:14PM (#8478455) Homepage
    3.5 million hits per month, not year, is what he's reporting. Not that it justifies the $300,000 but the number you've got is off by more than an order of magnitude.
  • by Glonoinha ( 587375 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:17PM (#8478491) Journal
    I have a hard time with his web site costing him $9k per month in real expenditures ( bandwidth, etc. ) sustained for 33 months straight.

    Now if he wants to include the unpaid wages of a developer (himself) in that I can probably envision it (not necessarily agree, but I can see where the numbers come from) - but you got to use a LOT of bandwidth to burn through $9k a month.
  • If he could prove his costs were $9090.90 per month in bandwidth fees, then he has a valid argument bottom line. I have a customer who happens to be a Sgt of the police department where i work, and the guy is a total prick. I'm not saying this as antipolice, I mean it the guy is an asshole. He uses a DS3 and whenever there is a problem with Verizon, he tries to ream anyone in the company to the point of workers feeling threatened. Even knowing VZ is the reason to blame, he still insists on DAMNIT I want my line on now! and mysteriously workers' cars fall victims to tickets for shit we never even knew existed. "Ticketed for degraded Windshield wiper" Hell I would fight too if I can prove it cost me 300k in fees in bandwidth.
  • by gerardrj ( 207690 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:21PM (#8478536) Journal
    No, it's nto an IP issue at all. This webmaster is not claiming to own the content at all. The issue is over fees and costs for hosting the content. The guy is saying that unless he is compensated for the costs incurred in hosting the site, he will cease to host it. And in fact he did just that and now the domain name is squatted.

    As a book publisher if I'm loosing money by marketing your book and after a time decide to stop marketing it and remove all the copies from my warehouse, I'm not claiming to own your IP. I'm just no longer offering your IP to the public at my cost. If you decide to pay me (more), I"ll continue to publish your book, all I'm asking is to at least break even.

  • Re:Proof positive... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Elwood P Dowd ( 16933 ) <judgmentalist@gmail.com> on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:22PM (#8478545) Journal
    I still don't understand what crime he committed. He shut down his own website. He designed it, owned copyright, and hosted it. I don't see why he can't stop whenever the hell he wants.
  • sherriff a rapist (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:23PM (#8478550)

    Ex-Macomb sheriff Hackel is free today

    April 24, 2003
    BY ALEXA CAPELOTO
    Today marks the end of William Hackel's three years as a prisoner, and the
    beginning of his return to freedom following his rape conviction in 2000.

    The former Macomb County sheriff is expected to leave the Charles Egeler
    Reception and Guidance Center in Jackson at 8 a.m. after being granted his
    first possible parole date last month.

    He was transferred to the center in late March from a Kentucky federal
    prison in preparation for his release.

    His wife and mother will be in Jackson to greet him and drive him home to
    Macomb County, said son and current Macomb County Sheriff Mark Hackel. He
    said his father's immediate focus is on reconnecting with family.

    "He just wants to be with his wife and my grandmother," Mark Hackel said
    Wednesday. "I'll try to see him as soon as possible. He's my father and I
    definitely want to spend time with him."

    Even as the ex-sheriff, 61, readjusts to life outside of prison, he plans to
    continue efforts to clear his name. Birmingham attorney and longtime friend
    Terence Page said he has asked the Michigan Supreme Court to review an
    appellate court's refusal to reverse Hackel's conviction.

    The court has not issued a decision.

    Meanwhile, Hackel can expect to return to countless friends and supporters
    who say they still believe he did not rape a 25-year-old female acquaintance
    at the Soaring Eagle Casino & Resort in Mt. Pleasant in October 1999.

    Several of them are collaborating on a Friends of Bill Hackel fund-raiser,
    scheduled for June 9 at CJ Barrymore's in Clinton Township. Jerry Medley, a
    friend of Hackel's for almost 50 years, said he expects 700 to 1,000 people,
    as well as the guest of honor, to attend.

    "We had an event two years ago and there were police chiefs, police
    officers, judges -- all friends of Bill Hackel," he said. Tickets for the
    June event cost $25.

    Hackel is no longer in the custody of the Michigan Department of
    Corrections, but he is still under the eye of the law. His two-year parole
    period requires him to register as a sex offender and to check in regularly
    with a parole agent.

    In addition, he is required to complete sex offender treatment and is
    prohibited from contacting the victim or possessing any items related to a
    law enforcement agency.

    Hackel served as county sheriff for 24 years until he was convicted in April
    2000 of two counts of third-degree criminal sexual conduct and sentenced to
    3 to 15 years in prison. The crime shocked community members who said they
    considered him a trusted leader who cared more about justice than power.

    "I'm sure it's not going to be easy" readjusting to life after
    incarceration, Medley said. "But knowing the person that he is, he'll get
    through it."

  • by IanBevan ( 213109 ) * on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:24PM (#8478564) Homepage
    My brother-in-law is an experienced contract lawyer. He has made the point to me that the key issue when working with somebody is that good faith must be present on both sides. Irrespective of what any contract says, if it gets nasty and either party starts "enforcing" that contract, the only people that win are the lawyers. I thought that was extremely interesting.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:26PM (#8478588)
    How'd he get $300,000? Easy: aside from the hardware and software costs, there was unpaid labor. All that time he spent on this free site was time he could have spent on other work; so yes doing stuff for free was costing him money. As there was no contract the sheriffs office could have argued that he knew what he was getting into, but that's a question for civil court. However, by impounding his equipment, arresting him, and threatening 20 years in prison, they have committed a HUGE abuse of authority. I hope the responsible officials are a) fired b) sued into the ground and c) sent to a pound-me-in-the-ass prison for as long as they're trying to send this guy there.
  • Another issue... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by TwistedGreen ( 80055 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:26PM (#8478594)
    putting aside the blatant extortion, since when was "using a computer to commit a crime" a crime? Commiting a crime is bad in itself, but when you use a computer to do it, it's even worse? Does that make sense?
  • Abuse of Power (Score:2, Interesting)

    by wonkavader ( 605434 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:28PM (#8478614)
    One way or another, this is an interesting situation. Not because of what he was charging or the details of the setup to the action, but of the action itself.

    Essentially, we have a non-contract situation, and the provider decides to terminate the arrangement, and the ownership of the content and name are in dispute (who would win such a dispute, no matter how obvious the answer, not the point).

    For any private citizen, the only recourse would be litigation in civil courts.

    Since the customer was a police department, the matter is taken up as a criminal case. His property is seized (the customer took posession of the files in question), and he's jailed, finger-printed, and now has a criminal record of arrest.

    Does a senator get to fix his daughter's traffic tickets?

    Does a judge get to let his friends off?

    Does the dog catcher get to kill his enemy's uncollared dog as a stray, when he knows full well whose dog it is?

    The police engaged in kidnapping, battery (by placing cuffs on him), theft and libel.

    Not because it was the normal action, but because they COULD. He may be a scumbag, but he's not put in a position of trust by those he's elected (or hired) to protect. He doesn't take an oath of office as certainly the judge who authorized the warrant did, and I suspect the officers did, too.

    The wrong fellow's out on bail, here.
  • Check your WHOIS (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Dracolytch ( 714699 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:30PM (#8478640) Homepage
    Of interesting note... The domain justice4pat.com (The 2nd link) has their DNS hosted by runningwolf.com servers... Runningwolf was the name of Pat's company. Hmmm....

    ~D
  • by phoneyman ( 706381 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:32PM (#8478659)
    Overcharging is a far cry from extortion. He may be a terrible businessman, but that doesn't make him a criminal.

    Pierre
  • by Jaywalk ( 94910 ) * on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:33PM (#8478664) Homepage
    This is an abuse of authority by the police. If a private citizen came to the police with this story, would the police run out and charge the guy with multiple felonies? Or would they say it was a civil matter? Follow the links from the second site and see if any of the charges would stick.
    • Extortion. [michiganlegislature.org] Threats of harm or injury to another person or his property? Just what is it he has supposedly threatend to harm?
    • Larceny by conversion. [michiganlegislature.org] This assumes that you took something of value and used it for yourself rather than its original purposes. Just what is it that this guy supposedly took? And how is he using it for his own purposes?
    • Using a computer to commit a crime. [michiganlegislature.org] This assumes a crime is committed. It's also a stupid law. Might as well make it illegal to use a stick to commit a crime. Committing the crime is a crime, no matter what you use to do it.
    • Obstruction of justice (bad link). This is based on the guy lying to the police about who owns the web site. Dumb thing to do, but "justice" doesn't figure prominently in this story in any case.
    If all they want is the site name, they don't even need the courts. You can't keep someone else's name without a valid reason. That's what all the cybersquatting cases were about. The Macomb Sherriff could simply argue to ICANN that Pat Richard doesn't have a valid claim to the name "macombsherriff.com" and they could get it back. (Technically, it should be "macombsherriff.gov" anyway.)
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:37PM (#8478710)
    Yes - I especially like how they post pictures of SUSPECTS on their website that have not even been convicted of a crime.
  • by bro1 ( 143618 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:40PM (#8478752) Homepage
    Hm... 3 500 000 / 30 / 24 / 60 / 60 = ~1.4 hits per second. Is that a lot?
  • by nuggz ( 69912 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:41PM (#8478764) Homepage
    Not supplying a free website isn't extortion. I

    Hosting something for 3 years, under an agreement that you would do so for free, then trying to charge for it retroactively is definately improper, and a violation of the existing contract.

    If he would have merely tried to charge from a set point in time, and perhaps for the content he had created it, he would be safe.
    Back charging in violation of the existing contract, this really isn't defensible, and he isn't entitled to that money.
    Removing a valuable public service, and withholding all information from that service, unless you receive money you aren't entitled to is just not a fair way to play.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:42PM (#8478775)
    For those of you that might no know..Macomb County is the count just to the north of Detroit.

    Now if you read the following link..you will find out why there was so much traffic to that website.

    http://www.detnews.com/2003/metro/0303/07/d01-10 13 82.htm

    Sherrif Hackle is the son of the former sherrif of 23 years who is doing 5-16 years in the federal pen, for laws he violated while in office.....

  • by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @04:53PM (#8478883) Journal
    Oh, he's also squatting on the domain which is all over the police letterhead, was on the cars, etc, etc..

  • by InkTank ( 627331 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @05:03PM (#8478984)
    Let's see, what is more sensational for the news media? The fact he DEMANDED the money or that he was showing how much the site was costing him and he wanted to have the county foot the bill from now on? You trust a media that can srew up the entire "Child's Play" work done by the Penny Arcade crew over Christmas? A $1,000 of toys from a local Catholic church ... WTF? The news paper is of course going to get the Sherrif's side of the story and villanize the big bad old Internt extortionist.
  • by Papyrus ( 226791 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @05:05PM (#8479007)
    The .gov domain was not, until fairly recently, available to non-US federal government agencies/entities.

    Back in the day, cities usually would have a site such as "http://www.cityname.statenameabbreviation.us". As such they would frequently be very cumbersome to tell citizens over the phone - the chances were very good that they (the citizen) would hear/write something incorrectly and then not be able to get to the site which would cause them to call back to try and get the URL again...and again...and again...

    Many cities (mine included) then decided to skip that and just get a .com domain so they could tell folks to just go to "city.com". Plus it was easier to fit on the bumper stickers we put on all our city vehicles.

    Had .gov been available at the time most cities might have preferred that to .com. However, for many cities that made the jump to .com that is the branding stuck in peoples minds now and it would be too much trouble/expense to change. My city was "clever" - they selected a site name in the form "citygov.com" (is it a government site or a commercial site - or both?)

    So...if you want to blame someone blame the feds
  • Re:Wow what a site! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by InkTank ( 627331 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @05:05PM (#8479017)
    Yes, let's actually link to a site in the Watback Machine that ISN'T reliant on his style sheet code that is no longer there. A MORE ACCURATE reperesentation of the previous site [archive.org] Looks like it's got a ton of good content to me. Plus it was an award winning site in the Law Enforcent Community.
  • Re:Thankyou sir (Score:5, Interesting)

    by cbreaker ( 561297 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @05:08PM (#8479053) Journal
    Good response. Gotta love people that actually read an article and get it all wrong.

    The thing is, if this was any other business besides a government one (more specifically a police one), they would have to sue him like anyone else, not immediately seize all his gear. This is the problem with cops in general, they have the power to act and ruin your life, and ask questions later.

    I don't care if this guy DID try to inflate the prices and such, I do not feel as though the police should have the right to do this to him without a court order.
  • Re:Thankyou sir (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pla ( 258480 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @05:10PM (#8479071) Journal
    Someone isn't telling the truth.

    I agree, and didn't mean to imply that he necessarily went about this with the best of intentions (not many people would blow $300k of their own money purely for the benefit of the county government).

    But, I can't see any way that the this can count as outright extortion. Even if he did it for publicity or other non-monetary considerations, without a contract (which both articles make clear as one of the big problems in this situation), he has no obligation to continue providing the service.

    So does the county "owe" him any money? I'd say morally yes, but legally no. But does he need to keep providing the service if they don't pay? Again, no. Not extortion, just basic capitalism. If I stop paying my cable, and my cable company shuts me off for not paying, I'd get laughed out of court if I cried "extortion!". Even lacking a contract (let's say I found the cable live when I moved in, and just started using it), I would get charged with theft of services when the CC noticed, not the other way around.
  • Re:Thankyou sir (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dasmegabyte ( 267018 ) <das@OHNOWHATSTHISdasmegabyte.org> on Friday March 05, 2004 @05:13PM (#8479090) Homepage Journal
    True, true...I frequently play devil's advocate and point out the unpopular counter to the "slashdot" view. And I'm surprised how often I get scores like "50% Insightful, 50% Overrated," due to some Slashdotters trying to suppress facts while others are trying to underscore counterarguments.

    End result? More information from more points of view, and that's better for everybody.
  • Re:Wow what a site! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by __aafutm5472 ( 188247 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @05:20PM (#8479157)
    Indeed. To see what it used to look like, we have to look back further, to 2002.

    Here's the 'correct' page [archive.org]
  • by cardshark2001 ( 444650 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @05:21PM (#8479168)
    $50k for 3 years for a webmonkey: $150k (actually that's WAY TOO MUCH for a webmonkey. You could hire a real programmer for that much.)

    You know, I'm currently a "real programmer", but in your words, I used to be a "webmonkey".

    I take offense at this notion that web programmers are somehow inferior to "real" programmers. My job web programming was a hell of a lot more difficult than my current "real" job. I had to wear a lot more hats. Among my duties were: DB administration, network administration, DB design, DB implementation, server administration, site design, and PERL coding. The way of thinking of management types is that you hire a "web monkey", and he just "does" your site. A lot of people have no idea what goes into a large scale interactive website. It may not be rocket science, but it often is much more than just writing some HTML (though even that is very hard to do well).

    I could get into how difficult it is to design an interface to be used by people who don't even know what interface means, to implement a good custom search facility, to smartly generate dynamic content and the like, but it would probably be lost on the likes of you.

  • Re:Re-read TFAs (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Dastardly ( 4204 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @05:36PM (#8479336)
    Personally, I'd trust a newspaper over blatant assertions by an activist site any day.

    And, the newpaper may have accurately quoted the sheriff and the charges brought by the sheriff. So, while I may trust the newpaper more, I don't trust the sheriff, or the activist site. And, regardless of whether the guy asked for $300,000 or not, it is perfectly within his right to stop providing a service that he is not contracted to provide.

    I think the sheriff department is going to get hammered on this one. He asked for money in order to maintain the website, regardless of the amount he is not obligated under any law to continue providing uncompensated services to anyone. The arrest could be considered an attempt to seize the defendants's property i.e. bandwidth costs to continue operating the website indefinitely. Which would be an unlawful seizure by the government. Let's say not only that, but he is expected to continue maintenance activities, i.e. adding new content. That would be indentured servitude. Which is again illegal.

    Best case for the sheriff, the defendant did ask for an ungodly amount to maintain the site. The sheriff knew that he was screwed because he didn't have a contract for the site from its inception, and either had to pay, or let the site be shutdown, and not have any rights to the material created by te defendant on the original site. Instead, he decided to bring criminal charges. That is the best case for the sheriff. Worst case for the sheriff, the defendant wanted the bandwidth costs to be paid, and asked for it. After not receving shutdown the site, and the sherrif arrested in an abuse of police power. In between the sheriff is still a vindictive bastard.

    IANAL
  • Or better yet, talk to your local press (if you have a local press, and if you don't, you should start one, it isn't hard and can be quite lucrative). The whole reason for freedom of the press was to prevent totalitarianism in local justice.

    Example: one of my local PDs was notoriously full of money grubbing racist assholes. Our local paper started trolling through records and LO AND BEHOLD, discovered a number of major improprieties, including overtime pay when people were obviously elsewhere and sexual assault cases against various high ranking officers that had "stalled" in court. Paper started publishing on them, and the guilty officers started disappearing from the force. The remaining guys are sweet as can be, because they know that fucking around with the gray areas will get them canned with no pension.
  • by Ungrounded Lightning ( 62228 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @05:49PM (#8479515) Journal
    I haven't read a single comment that is at the heart of this issue. The reason the Sheriffs department considers it extortion, is because they claim they own the content.

    And the guy who did the website, on the other hand, has claimed that HE owns the content all along, because he WROTE it.

    It's not "work for hire" because there's no contract provision to that effect.

    And he put a copyright notice naming himself/his company on it from day one.

    A LOT of companies have been burned by this - hiring a company or developer to put together a website, then discovering (when they want to move elsewhere for better service or lower costs) that, like a photographer owning the negatives to your wedding pictures and the right to make copies, the website developer owns the copyright on the website - and thus only he can make changes without an additional contract.

    They might have provided the information. But HE wrote the HTML, scripts, etc.

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out in court.

    And whether any authorship or "content-provider" trade organizations will come to his aid, to prevent the establishment of a precedent that will weaken their hold on their own output. B-)
  • Re:Thankyou sir (Score:5, Interesting)

    by number11 ( 129686 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @05:55PM (#8479582)
    If I volunteer to do work for you for free, and then send you a bill for it, that is fraud and/or extortion.

    Fraud, maybe. But if I volunteer to do work for you for free, and then later tell you I'm not gonna work for you any more unless you pay me, that's just the breaks. If you don't like it, you don't use my services any more. It wasn't extortion when X-Drive said they weren't gonna be free anymore, and I'd have to pay them if I didn't want them to dump my files. It's not extortion when eFax tells me that I'm gonna have to pay them if I want to keep the fax number they've provided for years for free. How is this different?

    If the sheriff wanted a SLA guarantee, he would have hired a commercial service. He got what he paid for. And if the sheriff wanted to own the domain, he should have gotten a .gov domain, unless he's selling justice he's got no business with a .com TLD anyhow.

    [Insert ignorant redneck sheriff joke here]
  • by dasmegabyte ( 267018 ) <das@OHNOWHATSTHISdasmegabyte.org> on Friday March 05, 2004 @06:27PM (#8479964) Homepage Journal
    Try taking this approach with the utility company if you stop paying your electricity bill, and see how far you get.

    You'd get pretty far in New York. In fact, some people got so far with it that it's actually ILLEGAL to cancel gas or electric service during the winter months. People need their heat to survive, and cutting them off just because they can't pay would be extortion (or so the train of thought goes).
  • by Valdrax ( 32670 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @06:31PM (#8480020)
    Actually, if you read the newspaper's article, the sheriff's department claims that they were the ones to provide all the content for the site.

    Quote:
    "He built up the site so that we would rely on it so much and would pay him," Hackel said. "(But) that content belongs to all of us."

    He's not within his legal rights because he pulled a bait-and-switch on the sheriff's department when he decided to stick them with the bill for a site that they had come to rely on as free. I think they're calling it extortion because of the action he took to pull down a site which their organization relied on instead of negotiate in court. Not having that written contract is partially his fault too, and the lack of a solid termination clause opened him up to liability, I believe.

    Then again, the sheriff's office did fully abuse their police powers when they slapped him in irons and seized his equipment.
  • Re:Thankyou sir (Score:3, Interesting)

    by TheLoneDanger ( 611268 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @06:43PM (#8480154)
    This is of course, what is frightening about current state of the legal system. That it's not whether you're right or wrong, it's about whether you've pissed off the wrong person/organization.

    It's not about justice or fairness, it's about struggling for dominance, and if someone's got more money and/or power than you, you're screwed. Even if you win the verdict, you have to deal with the expenses and hardships before that (in this case, having his stuff seized), and then have to deal with appeals. Plus, those with power can screw your reputation, leaving you with image problems.
  • Re:Thankyou sir (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Cranx ( 456394 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @06:51PM (#8480223)
    But what if I say: "Today I don't volunteer. Today you pay me or no more service."

    That's essentially what he did. He let them ride free to a point, then asked that they begin paying for service. They refused, so he shut them down. That's 100% legal and within his rights, and I think if that guy gets himself half a clueful lawyer, that Sherrif's office is going to be seeing a handful of both criminal and civil charges against them.
  • by Tweaker_Phreaker ( 310297 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @06:52PM (#8480233)
    According to Dictionary.com [reference.com] extortion is:

    1. The act or an instance of extorting.
    2. Illegal use of one's official position or powers to obtain property, funds, or patronage.
    3. An excessive or exorbitant charge.
    4. Something extorted.

    $300,000 is definately an excessive charge for the bandwidth and even his work. My website gets around three million hits too but it only costs a whopping $6/month for hosting. That pretty much means he wanted $10,000/month for his work. Only the courts will be able to decide whether it was an illegal use of one's official position or powers to obtain property, funds, or patronage or if it's just plain capitalism.
  • Re:what what what? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by reaper ( 10065 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @07:13PM (#8480444) Homepage Journal
    He didn't get 3 million visitors... he got 3.5 million hits. Each page has at least 1 hit, plus one more for each graphic, and embedded object like music, or flash animation. Most people will hit a few pages, so it adds up quickly. A good log analyzer can convert that to unique visitors with a very small margin of error.
  • by Tjp($)pjT ( 266360 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @07:19PM (#8480504)
    Kod*k hired me to do some work (support dual ported disks across two independant computers and maintain filesyatem consistency). Payment was set contractually, net 10 days. After they were 10 weeks in arrears (and owed the last billing in a few days for a total of 12 shortly), with almost 14 weeks unpaid I did what any sensible contractor would do after nearly daily getting nowhere with the management and accounting to get the funds authorized to be released and a check cut. I told them the end of the week would be my last day of work until paid, then when not paid I called in to work and said when a check was ready I'd show up. I asked that in light of the nature of the arrears I'd resume work when all of the unpaid work was paid in full. My boss tried a power game where all the appropriate checks where cut but he held back the last one having his secretary tell me I'd have to resume work to collect that last check. I said I'd resume work when all the outstanding work was paid for. Kod*k still owes me $3500 plus around 20 years interest. Rather than burn the bridges with all of Kodak since I did work for other divisions, I just refused contracts with that division or any other division that that manager worked for. In an interesting and twisted justification for keeping the funds when I delclined to return to work until they'd pay me, they sent me a letter saying that they were deducting the cost of training my replacement to rewrite a driver I had done for them (which is really funny since I took a stock Digital RSX-11M Plus driver and changed the drive designation letters to RO: so that the batch scripts could easily be read and have one know that was the Read Only port for the drive by convention). The really fun part was they said it was poorly written and lacked documentation! This after a full functional specification as well as a design document for all the parts of the system. Somewhat of a rarity back then.

    So even contracts don't always keep things straight. Sometimes you can't afford to get too many folks at a longterm customer riled too much.
  • 300,000 - so what? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Poligraf ( 146965 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @07:21PM (#8480522)
    Have /. crowd heard about art of negotiation?

    Just look at lawyers - sue someone for a 100 million and then settle for 100 thousand.

    Him asking 300,000 is nothing more than starting point. What sucks big time is the sheriff refusing to come up with a reasonable agreement at all.
  • Read Beyond TFA (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 05, 2004 @07:41PM (#8480707)
    I'm not very impressed by most of the responses. I got kind of a queasy feeling reading the articles and checked out the justice4pat.com site where I was surprised to find he linked to several articles that painted his side negatively. They were in fact the top links. Looking at the lower links I got different information. It sounds like when he offered to set up the site they said we'll work out payment for the maintenance of the site later. They never did work it out later because the sheriff refused to discuss it. More than a year ago he let the sheriff's dept. know he could not afford the ongoing costs and he'd have to take down the site if something wasn't arranged. The $300k figure was what he estimated he'd have charged a paying client for everything. That means his time for maintenance and upkeep, designing the site in the first place, and hosting costs, and whatever other costs may have been involved. (BTW http://web.archive.org/web/20020929171339/http://w ww.macombsheriff.com/ gives a much better idea of the site than the previously posted links.) My understanding is he wasn't asking for $300k, he was asking they take over the costs going forward.
    Apparently he's been in a similar situation before. In this discussion thread http://development.gurusnetwork.com/discussion/thr ead/2452/ someone (Nevel) indicates he (Pugzly a.k.a. Richards) helped create that very site and hosted it as well. Then when the cost got too much, because the site grew, they worked it out and are still friends. They're even trying to help with his current situation. Having read all that I'm much more inclined to believe his side than the sheriff dept. press releases in the newspaper articles.
  • Re:uh, whatever! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Whyte ( 65556 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @07:43PM (#8480720)
    > Does anyone believe that if this was any
    > organization besides the local Sheriff he
    > wanted cash from to keep hosting their site,
    > that the Sheriff's department would have
    > arrested him for extortion with the exact same
    > set of facts?
    >
    > I think that's called selective prosecution,
    > among other things....

    You are getting it all wrong. He had, what sounds like, a verbal contract to provide hosting for a local government agency without charge. After three years he decided that he didn't like the contract, so he demanded $300,000 in "expenses". When they refused to pay - FYI there is no way a local sheriff's department would be able to cough that up anyway - he took the site down and refused to give them the hosted data or the domain name back unless they paid him his $300k.

    He has data whose legal ownership will be decided by a court, but likely was contributed in bulk by the sheriff's office. He was essentually holding this data hostage unless the money was paid. And when he hindered investigators, they seized his servers.

    This doesn't seem so unreasonable me. This definitely isn't selective prosecution, this is what I would expect any law enforcement organization to do while investigating an extortion case with similarly existing criteria.

    This guy is a bone head, and as post #1 rightly said, he deserves what he gets for his actions.
  • by finitimi ( 126732 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @09:37PM (#8481448)
    I will preface this by saying that I manage a municipality's web presence, and have delegated management of the police department site to a dedicated and competent citizen volunteer, although I still retain control over and bear responsibility for his actions. Likewise, everything I do is subject to oversight and control by several layers of bureaucracy, ultimately ending with the voters. It's a good system.

    Both parties in this dispute have grievances which could be legitimate; that will be up to a civil court to decide. I really doubt a criminal case will result from this dispute.

    One only needs to glance at the new site and archived copies [archive.org] of the old site to realize both parties are quite clueless about what's involved in web publishing. Pox on them both for their stupidity, I say.

    The original article says that the web guy was "a former reserve deputy in the sheriff's marine division." That raises a red flag to me, and perhaps it should have with the sheriff's department. I'm always suspicious of the motives of these "wannabe cop" type people. I wonder if a background check was ever done on him before he was given these "reserve deputy" duties.
  • by ScrewMaster ( 602015 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @10:26PM (#8481699)
    Well, my firm belief is that you don't let any client get that far in arrears. In twenty years of contracting I've had very few problems in that regard, but that's mostly because I'm an absolute hard-case when it comes to money. I do my part, they do theirs. If they don't ... well. Clients learn that very quickly, and since they usually like my work they pay me on time and in full. I point out that I'm a small businessman, and if you aren't going to pay my bills I'll find someone that will. I've found that in recent years many very large corporations have come to depend more and more on contract labor (given that they've often FIRED most of their regular workforces!) and have further realized that Net 90 terms don't cut it for independents. Consequently, many have fast-pay plans for small vendors like myself. You have to ask though.
  • Re:Thankyou sir (Score:2, Interesting)

    by nartz ( 541661 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @11:52PM (#8482151)
    I don't know if it applies, but BBC news seems pretty unbiased to me, appreciably moreso than others at least.
  • by ArseneLupin ( 743401 ) on Saturday March 06, 2004 @04:42AM (#8483607)
    but it's a reasonable salary for a talented web engineer

    This assumes that during these three years he worked only on that web site. Somehow I doubt that it was that much work to set it up and maintain, and that he did not have any other clients during that 3 year period.

    A couple of weeks for initial development (at most) followed by maybe 1 or 2 hours per week for maintenance during the rest of the 3 years is more reasonable. Come on, web site design (if done right) is not that work intensive.

    Not to mention that $8333/month is quite a nice salary for a web designer... Do you really earn that much in the states? Around here, even certified software engineers doing actual application development (C, java, ...) don't get those kinds of salaries!

    If we plug in those more realistic figures:

    • 1 month initial work
    • 1 day/month maintenance => 35 days = 7 weeks => less than 2 months
    ==> 3 month.

    Assume a salary of $4000/month, and 50% overhead => $18000.

    A far cry from the $300K he is charging.

  • Re:Thankyou sir (Score:3, Interesting)

    by instarx ( 615765 ) on Saturday March 06, 2004 @05:36AM (#8483763)
    The problem is we don't know the facts. Did the sheriff tell him he COULDN"T take the site down when the owner asked for financial help and then threaten to arrest him unless he kept performing the free service? Did the site owner ask for a reasonable payment and then respond with a bill to make it formal when the sheriff told him to get stuffed? We simply do not know what precipitated the $300,000 bill.

    It doesn't matter what the owners motives were - asking for payment for a service is not a crime, and taking down you own property (the web site) is also not a crime. Luckily for the sheriff, stupidity for not getting ownership of his own domain name is not a crime either.

    Frankly, I don't trust any sheriff who would so clearly abuse his police power to punish the site owner. This is a civil case, not a criminal case, and from the article the sheriff doesn't have a leg to stand on - the site owner can do anytning he wants to with the site, including shut it down. If the sheriff didn't like the site being down there were civil remedies that could have created a court order to keep the site operational until the matter could be resolved. The sheriff didn't do that - he just abused his arrest power and decided to teach the guy a lesson by arresting him.

    I hope the site owner sues the hell out of the sheriff just to teach him the difference between civil and criminal law.
  • Re:Thankyou sir (Score:3, Interesting)

    by instarx ( 615765 ) on Saturday March 06, 2004 @06:24AM (#8483860)
    ..and if the guy did the same thing to a local furniture store's data they'd hire a lawyer and sue in civil court to get their data back. They wouldn't go to the police and try to have him arrested for extortion or "using a computer to commit a crime". If they tried to the police would laugh at them and show them the door while saying "So sue the guy."

    I am concerned that the police confiscated his computer. Was that his WEB SERVER? If so, they destroyed his business. Did they charge him with "using a computer to commit a crime" just so they could confiscate his server to get access to "their" data? If so that is a clear abuse of authority and nothing more than theft. You can't steal someone's car just because he won't return your fuzzy dice, and the police can't confiscate a person's business just because they want their web site back. If they have gone into his computers and extracted their data they have proved their bad faith. I suspect they have done just that.

    What makes this different is that the police abused their authority and decided they were the law, not the courts. If the guy had a plan to make them reliant on his site and then send them big bills it is perfectly legal. How is that different from your local cable company? How is it any different from the phone companies who until recently owned your phone number so you couldn't change carriers without great hassle? No one tried to arrest THEM, so how is that different from this guy who owned their domain and wouldn't give it to them unless they paid for it?

    And one final point: The site owner was a former deputy sheriff and as such I suspect he hates and loathes the ACLU - but this is exactly the kind of case the ACLU takes on. I wonder how he is going to feel about them when the ACLU asks him if he needs help now that he has first-hand experience with the abuse of police power?.
  • $300k ain't so bad. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by jesset77 ( 759149 ) on Saturday March 06, 2004 @07:39AM (#8484067)

    One point I'd like to clarify here is that before everyone goes into sticker-shock over $300k, understand that we're talking about more than bandwidth and hardware expenses. According to what I can see on the wayback machine, the website had a large amount of content. It was not a dubiously popular online business card and photo album. There were updated articles and stories every day. So, how did that content get organized into a website? Did Richard just turn on cheap hosting while the sherrifs demonstrated their web design and organizational skizzles? Maybe that's what they're trying now (from the looks of it) but at the time I would wager that Running Wolf bore the burden of translating police blotter feeds and random user requests into a website that was effectively a news portal.

    Also, I don't think the PD imprisoned Richards, impounded his equipment, and charged him with 4 felonies so rapidly over a simple bruised ego. If the website was so important to their infrastructure, prosecuting Richard into the stone age won't bring it back. The important thing I see them doing is confiscating the equipment. Outside of spite, that would serve them no purpose unless there was data on the equipment they hoped to recover (apparently as quickly as possible). This implies that they were relying solely on Richard's free website to house all of their data, and they needed it back just to take care of business. So, if it was their data, shouldn't they have had backups? No seriously, I mean hard copies so you can get your job done during a power failure.. They obviously relied on the workings of the website desperately.

    So, here's the rub. You just don't imprison people over shutting down a volunteer website. The PD can't claim to have any investment in the venture, since they never invested a wooden nickel. The PD may have volunteered their content, but Richards was vested with no responsibility of guarding that content with his freedom as a citizen. We could easily replace Richards in this story with Geocities. Sherrifs find nifty WSYWIG content manager and start a free website on geocities. Sherrifs post their nifty web address on cop cars and trust all of their content to this website. Geocities shuts off their account automatically for any odd reason, and all hell breaks loose.

    The only other thing Richard had that the PD could chafe over needing was the domain name. but it's only a name. It only has value because of the promotion and acceptence of the website itself. Again, they could have just as easily came to rely on Geocities web and email addresses, printing them on police cars and letterhead. That wouldn't entitle them to any kind of squatting rights over the geocities.com domain, or to have geocities officials arrested on nutty criminal charges.

    The truth is that the Police Department was simply freeloading the whole time. When the dust settles they aren't out a shiny penny, just all of their convenient functionality and a contact address or two. Richards is out 3 years of work, all expenses involved whatsoever (whether $300k or what) and a very real possibility of 20 years in prison with even more fines. The PD are the scam artists, not the web design firm.

    The way I see it, they essentially sweet talked their way into free room and board at someone's house, and eventually raised hell over all the heartache involved at being kicked out. "But all my letterhead has this address. But all my belongings are here and I refuse to take them anywhere else. Maybe I forgot to get my name on the lease at any point, put people come here to see me not you, so it's my house. I'll now arrest you for not handing over the keys and leaving while you had the chance." It reminds me of that movie "Pacific Heights" with Micheal Keaton.

He has not acquired a fortune; the fortune has acquired him. -- Bion

Working...