Building Social Skills in Gifted Youths? 1319
UNOStudent asks: "I'm currently a Biotech undergrad at the University of Nebraska-Omaha and have spent the past several semesters mentoring gifted youngsters and have been presented with a challenge this semester. My student is unbelievably smart, however has very limited social skills, is unable to cooperate with peers, doesn't understand why they make fun of his uncombed hair, etc. Since many of us may have grown up in a similar circumstance, I'm looking for suggestions from my fellow geeks on ideas for how to challenge him mentally, while building essential social skills." How would you build social skills in someone more concerned with math, science and computers?
Work in Teams (Score:5, Insightful)
Teach him about Asperger's Syndrome (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean it. Tell him he might have to wind up running human emotions under emulation if necessary.
Not knowing what the hell is wrong with him will stress him a lot more than having something, anything, he can deal with.
Good luck with this.
LAN parties and such (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Role-playing games. (Score:3, Insightful)
Just take him out in the sun and have him play ball with the rest of his age group.
...um...wrong question... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:One word - Karate (Score:5, Insightful)
Martial Arts build self-confidence, discipline and involve teaching as well as learning (since the more advanced students will help the less advanced). This is probably a pretty good list of the things these kids need, especially if physical activity and the like aren't really their forte -- challenges are good.
I'm taking Tae Kwon Do as a 26 year-old, and I just wish I'd gotten into it sooner. I've only been at it a short time, and I already sound like one of the cheesy recruiting flyers.
As to your other point, you really shouldn't minimize the importance of a good set of social skills. Especially in our more complex world, interaction with others is a huge part of getting anything done. Being able to ask for (and accept) things, network, build relationships and function in social situations are damn nifty skills to have.
Anyhow, I think martial arts would be a good way to teach smart kids to be *smart*, rather than just bastions of niche knowledge.
Re:Easy... (Score:1, Insightful)
Sports! (Score:3, Insightful)
A bit of advice... (Score:5, Insightful)
Even in modern programming, no one man can tackle enormous projects - we break things into functions and into parts and put them together.
Being ethnically different, "smart" (so said my K-12 schools, but college makes me doubt it), and by nature and culture alternately shy and arrogant, I've had to work to A) get to know people and B) work with them instead of going off on my own.
I say you give him group assignments where he has to work with other people (programming seperate functions in a larger program). Also, for kids, the great equalizer is video games - I've been playing Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles for a while and that game really emphasizes team work and people talking together.
Not much you can do for him... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ultimately, the motivator for him to learn social skills will be other kids interacting with him in a positive way, and you can't force that. What you CAN do, however, is get him in social situations where his brains will be considered an asset.
For instance, set up class lab activities that require teams of four, and make sure these activities require serious brains to complete. Sometimes, he should be in charge of picking people for his team; sometimes he shouldn't. Does this mean he might get chosen last? Sure, until a lazy and popular kid decides it's better to have this smart kid doing his work for him. Once your smart kid is selected by the popular kid, and they get an 'A' AND get done early because of it, he'll be considered an asset.
The flipside to that, of course, is that the other kids will initially be using him. The thing is, learing that you're being used and learning how to deal with it is as important a social skill as any other, so while it's painful in the short term it's beneficial in the long term.
Also, you'll be giving popular and lazy kids a reason to view him in a more positive light, which is a good lesson for them.
Speaking from experience... (Score:5, Insightful)
(sad story, warning)
When I was a kid, I was the fat, alkward kid who nobody liked. I was never able to get over my alkwardness until I found a friend, Melissa (Mel) who accepted me as I was.
Most of the time, these "socially enept" people are only socially enept because society has turned them away.
If you want these people to be socially acceptable, try accepting them first.
Not that I'm cool or anything now, but I do have friends, people who I care about and care about me. Popularity isn't everything. Friendship is. Thank God for friends.
Re:One word - Karate (Score:2, Insightful)
I would have loved to been able to scare off the bullys at will, and just get back to what I was doing. And you're right, it does build social, cooperation skills.
THC (Score:2, Insightful)
-B
Re:Easy... (Score:5, Insightful)
The parent post should be modded up Insightful and not funny. One of the major reasons, IMHO, geeks and nerds do not develop social skills is because they see no need. Most kids are concerned with their classmates opinions, and being liked. Those that do not care about being liked and just want to do what they want to do -- i.e. learn math -- develop in other ways their peers do not.
Another reason I believe that gifted children do not develop social skills is they lack peers. Think about talking to a child when you're an adult. You don't talk to them on the same level because they are immature and inexperienced. It's the same sort of thing for gifted children, they see themselves as the equivalent of a 20 year old trapped in a group of 10 year olds (or whatever). Solution? Put them with people of their intelligence level in their age group and watch them grow socially. (Not an easy task if they are in the top 1% or less of the population)
Re:3 tips that would have made my life a lot easie (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't know if you can... (Score:5, Insightful)
As a general rule I was more inclined to read books than socialize granted that was all I knew. Everyone would want to talk about the latest fad or trend and I just simply was never interested. Whenever company was over, I'd just simply ignore all that and go to my room and read. I had few friends in my life, mostly those I could relate to. Aside from the occasional bully, I was happy socially.
However my stepmom couldn't stand that being a social giant. I was to relate to everyone and anyone. She would constantly drag me out of my room and try and get me to talk to people. I never did out of spite, mostly just clamming up or worse being nasty to anybody she tried, until I could get back to my book (and later computer games). I was not a pleasant conversationalist when forced like that. Therefore I question the value of corrective action against a socially dis-inclined person.
For what it's worth tho, I'd like to think I turned out normal. I'm the first of my brothers to get married (well in 2 weeks anyways). Generally people say I relate well to others. However you generally find me talking to people I can relate with intellectually rather than people who are more inclined to talk about the latest "survivor" episode or some other gunk (I didn't even watch the Super Bowl!). However I can BS my way through anything if needed, for exapmle a job interview or performance review, etc.
Your turn to rant!
Empathy (Score:5, Insightful)
What I saw missing from my geeky friend's social skill set was empathy. They knew they were different and smarter than the rest, and they liked being smarter. Made them cocky, and they looked down upon the rest. The more they were teased, the more they withdrew, and the more they looked down on their tormentors. So how does empathy help? Look, these are smart kids and they can be reasoned with that they are going to have to spend a lifetime among people not as smart as they are. There is no getting around that unless you become a near hermit. So wouldn't it be smart to try to see themselves as others see them?
Yeah, who cares if you comb your hair anyway? Aren't there more important things in life, and besides people shouldn't judge me by my outer appearance! True, all true. But you know what? They do and they will. So does it make a difference whether or not your hair is combed? If no one cares, no. If people do care, yeah, it causes hassles for you that can so easily be avoided by a 30-second brush with a comb. Not hard, appeases the ignorant. Comes in handy if you ever have a job interview (and you will want one someday, won't you?).
Empathy allows you to think through the other person's eyes. Yeah, they aren't as smart as you, but they can't fully help that (biology and all that) and yet they are still humans with as much right toward dignity and respect as you would want for yourself. Apperances and actions shouldn't matter in a perfect world where intellect was all that counted, but we don't live in that world. We do have to interact with people who judge us for all the wrong reasons. Isn't it smart to spend just a minimal amount of effort to smooth our way in life? If you are perceived as a jerk by others, no matter how invalid the reason may be, it will cause friction in your life.
The smart person sees that friction coming and heads it off with a few simple social tricks that fool the ignorant. It's great as a party trick too!
Re:3 tips that would have made my life a lot easie (Score:5, Insightful)
Isolating children from peers and reality is not a good way to impart social skills. Communicating to them from a young age that they're special and better than other people is a negative towards producing functional adults.
Social skills are built through experience, now from memorizing a set of strategies for coping with the stupidity of other people. If part of that is learning to deal with people who don't like you (for any reason), well, that's life.
I see this sort of idiotic reasoning as crappy self-justification, sort of an "I'm better than everyone and that's why they hate me". People who adopt this sort of view are walking down a dangerous road towards more isolation (and probably the things that go with it, like depression or other psychological problems). It's the wrong way to go.
And I know of whence I speak -- I got my ass kicked on occassion in grade school. I had to deal with all the names and other bullshit. But hey, that's life. Learning to deal with advesity is what makes a person who they are.
Age matters (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:One word - Karate (Score:5, Insightful)
Another word : Ausbergers (Score:5, Insightful)
Do the youthes you are talking about have amazing technical skills, wonderful (photographic) memories, the ability to empathize with the computer
Anyways, it is worth understanding.
I wouldn't... (Score:3, Insightful)
A Very Interesting Question (Score:2, Insightful)
Find social situations in that child's area of interest. Online forums are a great place to exchange ideas, pose questions, and give answers, and intelligent young people like to feel like they can be on a peer level with adults. You can find a free online forum for almost any area of interest these days.
I also highly recommend MUDs, a text-based multiplayer online game that is extremely socially based. There are hundreds out there, and most are free - check out http://www.mudconnect.com.
Get them engaged in group activities - theatre is a great way to give intelligent kids a way to express their creativity while working together. It also builds confidence in front of an audience.
Debate teams are another way to give kids a chance to use their intelligence in a social situation, and build confidence in their ability to speak their thoughts and to be heard while being polite and having regard for the other side's opinion.
Public speaking classes and/or groups are another good way to build confidence. And this confidence will still help in one-on-one situations.
And last, but not least, a job or internship is another great way to build social skills - you're forced to interact with your co-workers on a social level and to get your job done. If you can't, you don't have a job. Plain and simple.
Re:Work in Teams (Score:4, Insightful)
I've always felt comfortable working by myself - give me a task to do and I will do it well, and do not force me to get into teams, or do any of the teamwork stuff.
I cannot help it - trust me, I've tried hard to work with teams, but even in a team I really need to work with people who understand me - and that includes my social shortcomings. Unfortunately, that almost never happens in real life, and its a sore point for me and for many others like me.
And I question the submitters need to ask such a question - why should I learn social skills and sacrifice my other skills? It has been proven that gaining social skills often comes at the expense of your problem solving and other intellectual abilities.
Is it so hard to understand that some people work better all by themselves? That some people are loners, and thats the way they are wired? And yes, when it comes to it I get myself a girlfriend the way _I_ see fit - and trust me, I've found pleasant geek girls this way, and these are ones who accept me despite my shortcomings.
The submitter made it sound like having no social skills makes us deficient in someway. Perhaps it does, but hell it more than makes up for it in other ways. Why should the ones who are socially inept and deficient try and be socially pleasant and accomodating to others?
Now if the smarter ones were to demand that those who were socially better off learn to be more smart and learn to solve more problems, lets see how the world takes that. Lets see the world taking to people saying that your IQ skills are bad, you need to develop them else you will not be accepted into the community. They will cry wolf. Then why should the socially inept have to learn social skills?
Oh well, enough with the ranting already. Somethings never change with time, I guess. No matter how advanced we become as a civilization, we will always fall back as a society.
Re:Easy... (Score:5, Insightful)
So if you don't have a certain one of these things, then ask yourself why. Is there something you can do about it. Do you care. If not, why. If not, make sure it's not because you think you can't have one of those things. Once you decide you want to make a change, decide how. Is there something you can stop doing or start doing that will help make it happen. Or maybe you have to go somewhere like a (gulp) night club or gym or supermarket or just for a walk. Maybe you need to hang out with a new crowd. Maybe you need a good friend to take you out on the town or out to a new group of friends.
Anyhow, it's all out there. You just need to find your reason for doing something about it.
Re:Work in Teams (Score:2, Insightful)
It is just frustrating and breeds contempt from both sides.
Re:3 tips that would have made my life a lot easie (Score:2, Insightful)
Get him in a G&T school or other peer group (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope this isn't too obvious.
John.
Use his strengths (Score:2, Insightful)
A book I found helpful on the theoretical side were Chimpanzee Politics [amazon.com], a detailed study of political struggle in a colony of chimps. Once I got how this stuff worked in our nearest relatives, a lot of previously mysterious human behavior made more sense to me. Another fantastic one is Impro [amazon.com], a book about improvisational theater which contains some great material on exactly how humans express some of the monkey stuff, how to become more aware of it, and how to do it on stage.
Also helpful are books on body language and flirting (e.g., this one [amazon.com], but there are a ton of them). All of this reading should be combined with observation. TV and movies are a great place to start; the signals are obvious, and you can rewind and slow-mo to help get it. But there's nothing like the real world: classrooms, cafes, and bars are a big help, too.
But there's nothing like practice. It's best to start practicing stuff in a safe environment, possibly by role-playing with friends, teachers, or counsellors. If he easily gets flustered or frustrated when trying this in real life, it's worth talking to a psychiatrist to see if they can help; problems like social anxiety, attention defecit disorder, and depression can interfere in both learning and performing.
Another way to make use of the geeky side is to have him come up with procedures and rituals for things other people do naturally. E.g., have him write up the checklist for the rituals he must perform (brushing his teeth, coming his hair) before he goes into the monkey cage (i.e. classroom). He might also be excited by using high-tech tools (like using the computer to record and catalog of himself and others doing normal social things).
One tip: Somebody who spends all their time on geeky pursuits will be used to learning things quickly. They must be prepared that in this, progress will come very slowly. It's a whole different kind of intelligence. A good popular read on the science behind it is Emotional Intelligence [amazon.com].
Good luck!
Re:...um...wrong question... (Score:3, Insightful)
Unfortunately, I don't think its the best answer. I think most of us tend to selectively forget the hard part of growing up. Hell, its hard enough growing up for the jock who is popular and has a 'way with people.' It is living hell for those who just can't seem to make their life 'click' with others. They see other people their agegroup interacting with other people easily; when our nerd tries the same thing, it falls flat; the girl gives him that 'look,' the guy laughs at him or smacks him around a bit. These things hurt; they form the personality in a very negative way in most cases. They can lead to a person who SAYS "I don't care what people think about me, fuck 'em." But its not true. They do care, they just don't interact well with others.
Get him in karate, like others posted. Show him the importance of grooming; he needs to know that he can still have the same interests and hobbies with non-greasy hair, but it'll make him less repulsive to others - especially girls.
My .02.....
Re:Asberger's Syndrome isn't real (Score:3, Insightful)
"Asberger's Syndrome" describes me fairly well, but I don't have the depression bit of it and I do take a holistic approach. However, I contend that the syndrome is an artificial side effect of too narrow a view of "normal". It basically says if you're not a Jock or a Cheerleader, there's something wrong with you. This is, of course, crap.
In any given community there is a core group of people that think the same, act the same and think of themselves as normal. They are, in fact, the freaks. The vast majority of people in the world are in fact distinctly different from every other person on the planet due to their genes, their upbringing or some other event.
Trying to be the same as this core group of freaks is a significant cause of depression, since it's actually impossible. So, don't mention "Asberger's Syndrome", never imply that there's anything wrong with being different. Everyone is better than you at something.
Shy (Score:2, Insightful)
BTW you don't have to be super smart to be shy, I think that glamorizes it and makes a happy ending. What if you were just of average intelligence, would someone want to help someone like that?
A new word should be invented instead of "shy" it is so common it's lost all meaning. It doesn't even hint at the incredible pain experienced by people who suffer it.
Discipline the other kids, please. (Score:5, Insightful)
Quite frankly, the teacher should be more concerned about the bullies; the smart kid isn't the problem, the bullies are. Why?
They usually turn out to be complete rejects as far as society goes; violent neanderthals, basically. Everyone looks the other way until BAM, they hit the real world and suddenly end up in jail for bashing their girlfriend's head against the wall(unless they happen to make it big in sports). Meanwhile, the geek suffers and may be secluded, but ultimately contributes to society in ways the ape never could have.
The solution here is to be strict with punishing the kids that pick on him. Johnny makes fun of him for not combing his hair? Johnny gets a time-out and a talk about how we're all different people, and we need to accept those who are different from us. Children start out as pretty accepting- but in the early years they can either learn it's really NOT ok to pick on other people, or they can get away with it, feel slightly good about themselves, and keep doing it. Learning to accept others makes them far more likely to succeed in school and particularly in the workplace(ie, "team players").
Step 1, dress the part (Score:5, Insightful)
This is step 1. Honestly, I know that it's shallow to judge someone on their looks, but hey, it is something that we have *evolved* over millions of years. People who look better succeed, it is a *fact*.
If the kid is upset that people laugh at his hairstyle, then, duh, maybe he should *change* it?
I honestly don't understand why geeks will get upset when people mock their style.. you have thousands of examples of (halfway) decent style to draw on daily, and you don't have to spend a bundle to be dressed normally for your age group. Unless you are going out of your way to look different on purpose (goth, etc ) there is no need for *looking" like a loser before anyone even speaks to you.
Re:One word - Karate (Score:5, Insightful)
All of your reasons are valid, but being able to kick the bullies' asses is a valid one as well. The martial arts are the martial arts; they may have developed a layer of philosophy over the years, but at the root they're about fighting. And that's not a bad thing, at all.
I was a punching bag all the way through elementary school and junior high. I started studying Tae Kwon Do -- from an instructor who had been a Marine stationed in Korea, and taught the art as a survival skill rather than a sport -- the summer before my freshman year of high school. I spent my freshman and sophomore years getting in a lot of fights. By my junior year, I had a reputation as a "psycho" (apparently when the jocks were pounding the hell out of me, that was perfectly normal, but fighting back was crazy). It wasn't quite the reputation I was looking for, but it was a hell of a lot better than going to school every day in literal terror.
And by my senior year, once people realized that I wasn't a psycho, it paid off. I could still be a geek, still be really really good at math and science, still spend most of my time with my nose buried in a book
-- and I trace that confidence back, quite directly, to the day I first felt a football player's nose crunch under my heel. Because sometimes, standing and fighting and winning is the best thing you can do.
Some merit... (Score:4, Insightful)
You won't be able to keep him away from bullies... they abound, and show a certain cunning in oppressing others. Far better a strategy may be found in your second point... teach them how to deal with these types until such time as the legal system offers remedies against the bully's physically assaultive behavior (I doubt too many geeks fear verbal sparring matches with these goons; as the quicker mind tends to prevail). It might also give them some experience with enduring pain and hassle... a valuable trait.
As for getting them laid early in life... I may be in the minority on this one, but caution is definitely in order. If you make their first sexual experience involve some Thai prostitute, you'll forever warp their expectations and impressions about intimacy. No bullsh*t... those experiences are emotionally powerful, and you tend to remember them. Depending on how you interpret those memories, they can become emotional baggage that affects your relationships with future partners.
Sex is a powerful thing... best let him save himself until such time as he can make his own conscious decisions about it, and has the maturity to handle it.
Some of our Slashpervs may, of course, disagree.
Ideas about the quiet mind (Asperger's) (Score:2, Insightful)
I have two kids with mild Asperger's, and it probably comes from my side of the family. Here are a couple of things I've learned:
* There are extroverts and introverts. Introverts gain energy from being alone; extroverts gain energy from talking with others. It's good to know both kinds of people, but don't forget what is good for your soul.
* The outdoors are a wonderful place. Endless miracles everywhere. Getting away from the modern world allows space for the quiet mind. The whole world slows down.
* Activities that don't require verbal communication, such as gardening, hiking, foraging, tracking, fishing, etc. are a blessing.
* Be happy with the special gifts you have; stop worrying about whether you measure up to everyone around you. It's wonderful to be different.
* There are plenty of quiet people; you just have to realize that these are the people you want to be around and seek them out.
* Be extra careful with intense relationships. Don't be careless about sex; being a parent is often very tough if caregiving is not part of your upbringing.
Re:Acting lessons (Score:2, Insightful)
Cross Country (Score:5, Insightful)
Having never taken a martial art, I don't know how effective they are. However, an alternative is to start running. Running has to be one of the best physical activities, and can be done throughout your entire life.
If the school has a cross country team, (especially if it is no-cut, like mine was), then that may be the perfect way to get involved with peers in an activity. It certainly opened me up more to other people and was one of the best decisions I ever made.
Sports (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a cousin whose parents always labeled him as "too good" for sports (so of course he ended up believing that, too). So, now not only has he never played a sport, but he looks down on people who do.
Just recently, he applied to one of the better acting schools in California. When he didn't get in, he threw a hissy fit worthy of a six year old -- stomped around the house, yelled at his folks, cried, made quasi-abusive calls to the college demanding to talk with the people in admissions, etc. This wasn't one night, either; this went on for months.
Simply put, he doesn't know how to lose. Or, maybe more specifically, he doesn't know how to react in a positive way when things don't fall the way he wants them to. All his life he's been sheltered from competition and told that he's gifted and better than everyone else and all the other crapola that parents in the 80's pushed on their kids, so when something happens to challenge this point of view he falls to pieces.
So, instead of getting a spot at another school and working on a transfer, he's convinced himself that the people in admissions are threatened by his talent and that they don't deserve him. When the school year starts, he'll be working part time at a coffee shop in San Francisco instead of going after his dreams.
Anyhow, when/if I have kids, you can bet they'll play something. Soccer, baseball, football, whatever -- aside from the other benefits of physical activity, I think it's a valuable place to learn how to deal with adversity (aka, lose).
Re:One word - Karate (Score:5, Insightful)
My apologies to the
Re:Easy... (Score:5, Insightful)
What did kids talk about in class? Laughing at teachers, cynicism, I like this car, that girls great in bed, I had cheerios this morning, I havent done my homework etc. I did come across other geeks and had great conversations with them. With some, I argued over some philosophical things for years (specifically that God doesnt exist), and others gave some good advice, and lent books they never got back.
Put gifted kids together. I understand they can be seriously egoistic, considering the time they spent with uninteresting kids. But that will only challenge them further. If you want your kid to be 'normal', your post on slashdot will earn you many, many, many enemies.
Re:One word - Karate (Score:5, Insightful)
You can get him involved in activities such as chess club, etc. that are geared towards gifted children. If he doesn't have coordination, I wouldn't do Karate as it will only frustrate him. Help him build confidence in his strengths, which appears right now to be his intelligence. Chess, computer organizations, summer school programs for the gifted, etc.
Just my $0.02 worth.
The game... (Score:2, Insightful)
If we are talking about teenagers, sex is really the right answer. Not that I advocate actually getting him laid, but let's not ignore the fact that the desire to reproduce is the second strongest desire in all of nature, just under survival. Like it or not, in order to be attractive to women (or even men) you must be clean, sociable, and being in decent shape doesn't hurt. Most intelligent people would be with you on that this is a good course of action, the problem is how to be sociable.
I don't advocate D&D any more than I do cocaine. It's addictive and ends up introducing you to more people with no social skills. LUG's, Magic, theater, and comicon are all right there with it. The goal is to interact with people who are outside your social circle and comfort zone. I saw a few good suggestions for this: martial arts, camping (boy scouts), sports.
I am a geek, I am fat, everyone I know describes me as outgoing. The secret was realizing the falseness of "cool" and "popular".
Someone is popular because they are accepted by those who you perceive to be popular. It's in your perception. There is nothing which sets the cool apart from the un-cool other than that individual's self-perception. Once I was able to come to terms with the fact that no one is intrinsically better than me nor more worthy, I was able to break the mental block which kept me in the theater and out of the keggers. Once I quit ranking myself on a scale of what I thought others thought of me, I was able to become what I thought of myself.
Remember that being more intelligent does give you the advantage. You can learn the game, practice it, and become proficient while others are still coming to grips that there is a game at all.
Re:3 tips that would have made my life a lot easie (Score:3, Insightful)
IMHO, there are some people who can be safely ignored for a period of time during early developement.
I grew up in a "tough" school that was VERY anti-intellectual. My graduating class consisted of less than 50% of the people that started High School, many of my "peers" are dead or jailed right now. There are several people that I had run-ins with early in life that I wish I'd have been isolated from. Being young and poorly guided, I fought these people physically, ignored school work to engage in "social" interaction with like-minded individuals (the friend of my enemy is my friend), etc. If I'd simply been sheltered from them, I sincerely believe that I could have gotten involved in much more productive interaction with a more intelligent group in HS than I did. I eventually abandoned my "friends" when I realized I wasn't as intellectually stunted as them, and now I'm more or less on my own in the friendship arena even though there were plenty of equals and superiors that I could have latched on to.
I don't think that sheltering children in the early years is a bad thing. Once they've developed a mature enough stance to be taught how to stand up against bullies, bigots, etc. then they can be introduced to the full gamut of the social strucure. However, you have to remember that these people who display extra intellectual prowess above and beyond their peers are effectively skipping HUGE areas of development that the rest of us have gone through. Getting them involved in more challenging material early on and protecting them is crucial to keeping them involved in that material, in my mind.
3 Tips to Socially Eptness (Score:2, Insightful)
The Clue Center (Score:3, Insightful)
INT. A man drinks from a glass of yellow liquid as a friend stands nearby.
Man 1: Yuck. This beer tastes like urine.
Man 2: Bob, that is urine.
INT. Two nerdy high school guys pass a cheerleader in a hallway.
Guy 1: Hi Heather.
Heather acknowledges the greeting by rolling her eyes in disgust. Guy 1 gets an excited look on his face.
Guy 1: She likes me!
EXT. Pitchman stands in front of a strip-mall storefront.
Pitchman: Do you know people like this? People who have absolutely no clue whatsoever?
The camera moves back to show the sign above the store.
Pitchman: Then come to The Clue Center . Our trained staff can help.
INT. An employee and a male patient are sitting in a nice office.
Employee 1: Listen, shmuck, I'm gonna explain it one more time... Everyone can tell it's a toupee.
INT. An employee and a female patient sit at a table with a toy car and a dollhouse on it.
Employee 2: This is a car. This is a house. The house is where you put your make-up on. Not the car. Or this could happen.
The employee rams the toy car into the side of the dollhouse.
INT. Pitchman stands in front of a sign, holding a pointer.
Pitchman: At The Clue Center, we'll teach you how to... think before you act... think before you speak... And for repeat customers, we'll teach you how to just think.
INT. A scientific laboratory where Dr. Melvin Splonk faces the camera.
Splonk: The Clue Center is great. Now that I shower every day, people talk to me... even when they don't have to!
INT. A living room. A plain-looking woman sits on a couch.
Woman: After just one visit to The Clue Center, I stopped waiting for Mel Gibson to call and started dating men who actually know I exist. You guys are wonderful!
CARD. The Clue Center logo, address, and phone number.
Voice Over: If you or someone you love needs a clue. Don't wait. Call The Clue Center now!
Pitchman appears in a box below the logo.
Pitchman: We're the thick-skull experts!
FADE OUT:
Don't damage this boy!!!! (Score:2, Insightful)
1) Get him sex.
2) Bribe him into behaving more socially (with something that he's interested in) and hope that it takes.
2a) Get him a job. Offer him tech toys for succeeding at it.
2b) Get him into sports (eg. martial arts) and offer him positive reenforcement for social behaviour.
Man am I glad I'm not the child. There are problems with all of these approaches.
1) Getting him sex. If he doesn't succeed you'll just make him feel worse about himself. If you pay for him to get it you're teaching him he's worthless. If he's not straight you'll also do damage pressuring him to conform with society. He may not be emmotionally mature enough to handle sex and all that comes with it. (You could get him suicidal over someone he builds a fantasy over if you're not careful for example). You're actually distracting him from his talent not helping him to fit it. Sexual behaviour has much more to it than learning to succeed at being a preditor. Let the poor kid develop at his own pace, introduce him to people his own age and get his social skills fixed and he'll not need you to be his pimp!
2a) This is only a good plan if he sees the job as worthwhile. He may not see menial labour as being worthwhile just as he probably doesn't see the need to conform. Once again you already know he doesn't have the social skills for normal interaction so why set him up to fail at something he's not ready for. If he doesn't succeed his precious toys you've bribed him with will be out of reach and he'll feel like a complete failure. Give him the social skills first.
2b) A little better IF you can get him interested AND you do something NON-COMPETITIVE. You want to build up his confidence, and you won't do that if he hasn't learnt how to fit in, and deal with succeess and failure first. Getting him interested MAY be very very difficult though, and if you force it he'll see you as the enemy as well.
Honestly what you want to do is find a hobby HE would be interested in that has a social aspect -something with a technical aspect would be ideal. Examples are boating, kite flying, photography. Try to stay away from PURELY technical hobbies like electronics, computing, sciences that tend to attract mostly males. He'll find his way into those himself. The ideal is something that both sexes participate in so he gets exposure to both men and women who do think differently (Note this is not to get him laid - this is to teach him to interact).
Now you need to sit him down and explain to him what the advantages are of interacting well. He won't be picked on, he'll make friends, aquaintances and collegues that will want to help him etc. If he's so inclined, tell him that you want him to play act the role of someone who'd fit in with people to see how people will behave - call it an experiment (but be sure he understands not to treat other people as lesser beings that aren't significant).
At the end of the day your best bet is going to be to get him to see that a small effort and getting into the habit of being more social will bring huge rewards in and of itself.
it isn't easy, but you always
a) Need to make him understand you're on his side. He can't feel like you're the enemy.
b) Emphasise the positive but do also point out the negative.
c) Correct him gently explaining why things don't work and how he could do things differently to feel more at ease and make people around him feel more at ease. Remember he doesn't have your social skills so what's obvious to you may not be to him.
Good luck. Not an easy one.
Re:Work in Teams (Score:4, Insightful)
I have done this for one very good reason - I realized very early in my career that brilliant, but socially inept engineers/scientists/programmers always end up reporting to managers of average intelligence that have developed (or were born with) their social skills.
The reality is that business is conducted through social interactions. So, if you are happy to spend the rest of your career reporting to someone that you are certain isn't as smart as you - by all means, do not develop those social skills. However, if you have ambitions to run or start a company, or play more than an consultative role in the running of a company, get a clue soon that your social skills are just as important as your technical skills.
Re:One word - Karate (Score:3, Insightful)
1) How are the other kids? If the school isn't properly managed, then he's still going to get picked on. A fat kid is a fat kid is a fat kid.
2) How is the teacher? Does he pick on the fat/skinny/ugly/smelly/newbie/stupid/different kids (see number 1)? Actaully, let me rephrase that: does he pick on them with prejudice?
3) What's the ratio of postive to negative infleuence (see 1 and 2 - see a pattern here?) I will never take you kid to a school where they tell you "You suck, do it again." Encouragement goes a long long way, especially if they don't get enough at home (not to say that everybody is a bad parent, but kids can never get too much encouragement).
4) Tournaments/contests? This is one thing I did miss out on. Team encouragement and encouraging others as well. Plus it offers a sense of accomplishment once you've succeeded in something.
Whose Responsibility? (Score:3, Insightful)
Then why are you making decisions regarding this person's social skills? Did someone ask you to decide if his social skills needed changing? Did his parents thell you they are and ask you to do so? I'm certain you're trying to be helpful, but helping someone who hasn't asked for it (or who didn't have someone in authority ask for it on their behalf) is called paternalism. It's disrespectful to the individual and/or the person's parent(s) or guardian(s).
If anyone needs to learn some social skills, it's the little bastards who won't leave the kid alone, as he obviously prefers. If he's that smart, he'll probably figure out just fine on his own how to behave around others, if he decides it's important enough for him to do so. If I were in your place I would simply serve as a role model for those other kids by accepting him as he is.
or... (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the best insights I remember from Coupland's Microserfs was the talk about a geek's disconnection from his/her body. How it's just this thing we pay little attention to, and consequently, it does not serve us well. I'm a runner, too, but while that works on a stress-reduction level, I don't think it puts you in tune as well as a more precise discipline such as martial arts or yoga.
Beyond some frank discussion (everyone needs someone to tell them the truth about stuff), however, what more can you do? You can only do so much. In truth, a woman will change him -- for the better, if she's a good one. Let's face it, guys are extreme, and admirable for being extreme. We can live off very little and get by, and that lends itself to all kinds of single-minded dedication, and thus achievement, but women tend to bring temperance to what they touch. (again, the good ones). Just my $.02
I was a 'gifted' student (Score:5, Insightful)
On my 20th birthday I happened to meet my grade 3-5 teacher in a restaurant over lunch and he remarked how I had survived the social experiment that was my 'gifted class'. It wasn't until I managed to find and keep a girlfriend that I found out I was an arrogant ass-hole (why she's with me I'll never know). Since learning about social skills from my gf, I've discovered that the praise culture that develops in gifted classrooms leads to egomania among the students. Gifted students learn faster/better, but that doesn't make them special. They have other failings that average students may not have. I still have ego problems (I'll do just about anything for praise, and I have real problems internalizing criticism) but I'm better than I was. I don't know how any of what I've said answers your original question, but I guess I'm trying to say that teaching and raising 'gifted' kids is definitely not a solved problem.
I think humbleness is sorely lacking amongst people with talent. When you match humbleness with talent, you get people like Linus Torvalds. Check out this article [wired.com] at Wired. It was linked from the front page of Slashdot a while back but I'm too lazy to look for the link. The first sentence of the article is "Linus Torvalds wants me to believe he's too boring for this story." I kinda doubt someone like ESR would ever be the subject of an article that started out that way. Arrogance is a real problem amongst the geek culture, and I think it's arrogance that stands between many geeks and a thriving social life. I work as a co-op student at a local software company, and I'm fortunate to work with a few bright people--all graduates of computer programmes at a fairly prestigious university. The social lives of my co-workers are just about inversly proportional to their level of arrogance.
Perhaps it is the socially-skilled people who curtail their arrogance, and not the humble people who garner lots of friends--I can't determine causation from correlation--but it's obvious to me that the two attributes go hand in hand, and I think it's telling that my circle of friends has a rather narrow radius whereas my ego sometimes gets stuck on the doorframe.
Ian
Let him be himself perhaps ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let the fucking kid be himself, and allow him to be proud of who is is. Allow him to grow into whatever personality he is most comfortable with.
Re:or don't..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not knowing what the hell is wrong with him will stress him a lot more than having something, anything, he can deal with."
Maybe this is an improper or even crass question, but when exactly did it become popular for everyone to have a pet disorder? It's really quite pathetic. No one is a bit shy anymore, they have Asperger's syndrome, no one feels under the weather for a time, they have chronic fatigue syndrome, no one dreads going to work in a drab boring office tower, they suffer from sick building syndrome etc. If you want to teach him about Asperger's syndrome, do him a bigger favor and also teach him about how certain psychoanalytical trends have all the earmarks of fad diagnoses [quackwatch.org].
I submit that what you have proposed here is possibly the worst solution to a kids problem of shyness (even if it's to the point of 'painful' shyness). Telling him: you have X syndrome, you better learn to deal with it now so you can start spending the rest of your life "running human emotions under emulation" is downright depressing and gives him an excuse to throw his hands up and essentially absolve himself of any personal responsibility to remedy his situation.
Would it not be better to provide guidance on how to have REAL relationships with people, find friends of his own interest and maybe gradually introduce him to participation in fun activities with his own peer group??
The Great Equalizer (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Another word : Ausbergers (Score:5, Insightful)
I am quite close to someone with Asperger's. I met him because I know his sister. It's unlikely that I'd meet him otherwise. I've met several people with Asperger's since then, as they live together at an assisted living facility.
Asperger's is a social handicap. He cannot distinguish lies from truth because he cannot read faces or tone of voice. The assisted living facility watches everybody's budget because they are prone to being swindled. At the same time, he is outgoing, gregarious and generous. He remembers everybody's birthday and spends plenty of time on the phone with everybody and goes out most nights, socializing with people.
But he's on a twenty minute loop of topics. He'll bring something up, then the next topic, and so on, and then twenty minutes later brings up the first topic again. His roommate and he have circular conversations without any hint of discomfort. He also tends to bring up things that happened 20 years ago repeatedly, sometimes without being aware of what has happened in the interval. He talks about his childhood pet cat as if it were still alive.
He is very intelligent and fun to hang out with because he is so outgoing. We went over to his apartment for the Superbowl (he's a big football fan), and he had a GI Joe tablecloth. He invited a bunch of people and was a wonderful host.
But he just didn't get some of the jokes or stories because he simply can not read sarcasm or irony.
Asperger's is talked about on Slashdot as if it were some sort of light geekish introversion. Asperger's has nothing to do with introversion, and many geek tendancies (senses of humor that tend toward the ironic, sarcastic or double meaning) are completely beyond the capabilities of someone with Asperger's. One test for Asperger's is asking someone to draw a person. Children with Asperger's tend not to draw facial features, and if they do, they lack any emotion. Asperger's is complicated because the person may be intelligent (or not... they have the normal range of intelligence), but they simply lack the fundimental ability to parse many parts of social communication.
Asperger's is not a minor handicap. Nor does it cause introversion. It is the inability to understand the social interaction inherent in communication. The fellow I told you about is up for assistant manager at a major pizza chain. He's doing well in the world and has made many friends. But he is handicapped, and it's not the minor "geekish tendancies" that people on Slashdot seem to think Asperger's is. He'll never be able to live on his own, always needing some supervision. It is a real, major handicap.
--
Evan
Re:Easy... (Score:5, Insightful)
It doesn't work that way for some kids (or adults). They are not missing out on the particular social items you mention in the slightest - because they have no interest in them. Such people have to be taught social skills - and it's not that they need social skills to be happy from their own perspective - it's that other people will tolerate them better if they can exhibit what most of us consider normal politeness.
Asperger Syndrome kids have great difficulty recognizing the visual cues in a face for example - they don't know that they are missing out on anything at all - and they don't understand but can experience as much frustration as any other human at people that shamelessly make fun of them (well .... if they notice). Such people are very sensitive to being crowded, or loud or sudden noises, or in the case of my son, the high-pitched whine of an ultrasonic cleaner (such kids tend to have excellent hearing it seems). Think of all the little things that kind of irritate you a little - people interrupting you when concentrating, strong smells, sirens, etc. You're likely able to just tolerate them without thinking about it - people with Asp. Syn. don't have that trivial self control - they have to make a concious effort to not be overwhelmed by such "little things".
To their advantage most of them also tend to be really smart and/or have superb memory.
Anyway, these kids can't just ask themselves why they don't have certain social lives - they are unable to recognize that they don't.
Re:I was a 'gifted' student (Score:3, Insightful)
Uncombed hair = cognitive dissonance (Score:2, Insightful)
Bad social skills produces cognitive dissonance in regular folks, just like bad facts produces it in geek kind. This is important because geeks need to communicate some important ideas to society at large, but so long as society is concentrating on your too tight raggy T-shirt, or the unkempt hair, they don't hear your message.
It's not just that you aren't like them. No one talking to Richard Feynman would have thought he was "just a regular guy". But he communicated very well, so people listened. And a big part of that communication is presentation.
Elitest talk, snide remarks, ignorance of audience reaction (eyes glazing, nervous glances away, etc.), unkempt appearance, all these things tell the people you are talking to that you dislike them.
They'll dislike you right back, and worse, they won't give you money.
The ubergeek who is designing NOC's and getting multimillion dollar budgets to do it is someone who can talk to the suits, who can even wear one and look comfortable. Someone who can make them smile.
Social skills are the API to humans. Ignore them at your peril.
Re:Another word : Ausbergers (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a great deal of variation in the intensity of an autistic person's behaviours (for AS is a 'milder' form of autism); in my case i'm pretty clueless about social cues and pretty much lost in social group situations.
Autistics aren't the emotionless robots we're all painted as, although the way we can express our emotions can be so powerful/uncontrolled that it's considered dangerous, or so subtly expressed that the emotion is simply not seen as such.
Humour varies with autistics just as it does with everyone else; i have something of a reputation amongst my peers (both autistic and not) for my wit (when the joke works, which is usually the case).
But AS is a serious obstacle when seeking (or attempting to remain in) employment, and it can make social contact something of a challenge (for both sides).
Yes, it's a handicap, but not always incapacitating.
Re:One word - Karate (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, if his Karate teacher sucks. Unfortunately there are many of these. As with all things one must be an intelligent and discerning shopper.
In any case, a child such as this is quite likely to do better with one of the "soft" martial arts, such as Tai Chi and Aikido, where developing coordination is the principle focus of the art. They also require a good deal of intelligent thoughtfulness to do well. A good teacher will take him from wherever he is and train him from there, not from some hypothetical starting point where he's "supposed to be." Then when he develops skill, coordination and selfconfidence he can adopt a "hard" school if he wishes.
KFG
Re:Natural Geek Development (Score:3, Insightful)
Although intended to be funny, I wish people had taught me this years ago. Spent years trying to "fit in" at school, but ultimately found out that it's much more fun to simply do what you really like. Once I got that principle to my thick skull, my social life suddenly expanded greatly as well (without any special effort in that direction).
It's not what you enjoy to do that makes your peers accept you, it's being honest & proud about the things you enjoy, no matter what those are.
Re:Easy... (Score:3, Insightful)
What's rough on these folks is that while they're sharp as tacks, their poor social skills will not land them a job that pays commensurate with their technical skills. Schmoozing and negotiating skills are critical to financial success - if you're happy to be as well off as the marketroids then fine, but if you've got real skills you should know how to market yourself too.
It's rough out there, and it doesn't matter whether your specialty is I.T. or assembly programming - you've got to make connections and get respect from your employer.
Re:One word - Karate (Score:2, Insightful)
You could also try craft/arts groups that will allow him to develop self expression and creativity.
If all else fails have a monthly sleepover and invite his peers from school.
Do not allow him to stay in the gifted self-contained world and have him never learn how to deal with others his age socially.
Amen, brother. (Score:5, Insightful)
When I was evaluated for AS, my psych told me that I had clear enough symptoms that an AS diagnosis was appropriate... but that ultimately it was up to me whether I had AS. If having the knowledge that my brain was wired differently helped me cope with life, helped me accomodate my shortcomings, let me live a happier and better life, then by all means: let's get the AS diagnosis taken care of.
But the flip side is that a lot of people take diagnoses and turn them into excuses why they can't do $foo, why other people need to accomodate them, why they're
AS is often a fad diagnosis. (The worst I ever saw was a father telling me about his four-year-old with AS. Come on.) But the existence of fad diagnoses does not in any way negate the existence of accurate AS diagnoses, nor the help that self-knowledge can bring.
I have AS. I'm a graduate student; I almost got married once, but it didn't take. I've worked in the industry and received my fair share of glowing recommendations and don't-let-the-door-hit-you-in-the-ass goodbyes. I have the respect of my peers and more friends than I deserve.
None of this happened either because or in spite of Asperger's Syndrome. I'm wholly responsible for all of them--the particular way my head is wired has zero responsibility for any of them.
The way my head is wired is just a fact of existence. What I choose to do with my life... that's up to me.
On bullies (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Sports (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course a few months later my first choice college realized they'd underadmited and started calling up people on the wait list and asking if they wanted to attend, and i was near the top of the list. Of course if i'd reacted like your example and had a hissy fit they probably wouldn't have considered me.
It sounds like the parents raised the kid all wrong, and the belief that he was too good for sports were only a small part of it. I'm sure there are pleanty of other spoiled brats who took sports and it didn't make them any better.
Re:or don't..... (Score:2, Insightful)
Just because you think that the general description of the Asperger's syndrome somewhat describes you, doesn't mean you have it.
After hearing first about Asperger, I thougth "Hey, that's me." Then I got to the online support groups, read the tips that float there and come to the conclusion "Oh, that's waaaay more serious than my little social problems."
Just because you have some very mild traits of this syndrome doesnt mean that you have it. After all, everyone has some trait of some mental illness, but that doesnt means you are mentally ill.
And dont blindly trust your doctor either, Asperger has become a "trendy" diagnosis (just like hyperactivity) and doctors have become way to eager to diagnose it.
If you suspect Asperger, read the tips on the online support groups and if they look obvious
Asperger's syndrome is a very severe condition that goes way beyond shyness.
Re:Easy... (Score:3, Insightful)
Gifted kids should be challenged just as much as everyone else, agreed. They should have academic curricula that match their capabilities. But blanketly "putting gifted kids together" is not necessarily the best course of action, at least in my opinion, especially when it deprives them of certain social interaction that could prove extremely beneficial to them in the long run.
I'd hate to see how I would have turned out if I'd been around just the "gifted" kids all day.
Re:Obligatory Simpsons Quote: (Score:2, Insightful)
So you've decided to blame those people for an inflated, over-demanding ego. No, you should thank them for having seen potential in you, and learn how to channel your gifts rather than succumb to your ego.
Hair combing and hypocrisy (Score:1, Insightful)
I had a similar experience when I was a kid. I believed that there are more important things that appearance and that people with higher ideals can looks past appearance.
So I certainly understood why people would tease you for your appearance, I undertsood them better than did themselves, I undertsood the motivation behind their own behaviour. But I rallied against this petty form of behaviour and decided not to waste my time on combing hair, buying brand name clothes etc. This was a conscious decision to rise above the lower natures of many that surrounded me.
Sure it can make you life harder, but in exchange you don't lose your integrity and ideals.
Re:Natural Geek Development (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, who says you have to stick to one clique? If someone has a problem with this, why would I want to spend time with them anyway?
Since none of this matters in the long run anyway (nobody stays in touch with high school friends after graduation anyway, or if they do, it's 2 or 3 close friends at the most), you might as well have as much fun as you can (or at least minimize the unpleasantness as much as possible) while you're there. I never saw a college application that asked me for a letter of recommendation from the captain of the football team or to say how many cheerleaders I hooked up with.
Make interpersonal skills a study... like chess (Score:1, Insightful)
There are a couple things I'd suggest...
- There's a principle that says in an interaction between two people, the one with the most flexibility in their responses has control. Teach your child to learn different behavior options as a tool in their 'interfacing' with human 'systems' - talking loud, talking soft, being polite, being rude, cutting jokes, being serious, being gentle, being tough... You can role-play this and make it a game of 'match me'.
- There's a book on rapport (the magic of rapport) that goes into the key concept of rapport... if your kid sticks out from the rest of the group like a sore thumb, encourage him/her to read this one.
- I _wouldn't_ recommend most martial arts... karate/tae-kwon-do make you more inner-focused and serious... not what your kid needs. Also, the kicks/chops used in tae-kwon-do are not something you're going to pull out on the school-yard, so the techniques can leave you stuck having to _not_ defend yourself. I _would_ recommend grappling arts like wrestling or gracie jiu-jitsu. These teach techniques you can actually use in a real schoolyard tustle, and IMO build much better confidence than flashy but useless kata. Boxing, also, worked wonders for one shy, asthmatic, be-spectacled weakling - Teddy Roosevelt.
I'd encourage you to talk with your child a lot about this stuff... It can be very frustrating for a child who's really smart but finds themselves failing in the things that matter most to a kid.
Good luck to you and your child.
Re:Another word : Ausbergers (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Easy... (Score:0, Insightful)
I don't have a "significant other" (what a stupid expression) and I don't need one. When I want sex, I go see a prostitute. As for love... Guess what! I'm a man! My idea of love is to have a harem.
As for friend, still have some, kind of. But the truth is most of them are now married, have children and work 50 hours a week to pay for their new shiny car (so they can show to their neighbour how much better they are). Now, the only thing they can do is have diner once in a while or go see a movie (the main reason for this being their "significant other"). BORING! I used to play badminton 3 times a week, play some RPG on weekend, have a LAN party once in a while with them... Now I play badminton in a league with people I barely know and play games on the Internet with total stranger. And for conversation (like politics), it's usenet because with my "friends" the only thing we can talk about is their new barbecue. In a way, I don't have any friend left (from the one I had when I was 18). But you know what? I don't even miss them. If I don't like the guys I'm playing badminton with... I can play in another league. So I can do all the things I want, without having to compromise.
As for a job... well if I could have money without working you can be pretty sure I would stop working RIGHT NOW!
Here's the deal... I want to have sex but I don't want to buy some stupid flower. I want to play badminton but not with my friend's wife (who says that smashes are too dangerous so they are forbidden). I want to play games but not that supid game for 3 years old (so my friend's kid can play too).
The deal is : I know what I REALLY want, and I cut the crap. Do you?
Re:Work in Teams (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it so hard to understand that most business requires working with co-workers?
I would never hire you. I don't care if you're the best programmer on earth, if you cannot work with our designers, our reporters, and our editors, you are useless.
Speech and Debate (Score:2, Insightful)
My 15 year old son is in it and it's great. I was pleasantly surprised how much he likes it, way more than I thought. I asked him, and his answer was that it's competitive too (Debate that is, speech isn't). Seems my son likes to win way more than I thought and there's a winner in Debate... it keeps him going.
So you say the right stuff, but you're wearing white socks, sporting unkempt hair, have an untucked shirt, and broken glasses. You won't convince the judges you're right. In the real world, looks matter, presentation matters, self confidence matters. It may not be pretty, it may offend your sense of justice and mathematical fair play, but it's the way the world is. If you need to live in that world, stay behind the computer and type all your messages. But if you want to live away from the computer, learn that lesson while you're in high school and have your life ahead of you so you can take advantage of it!
Re:Easy... (Score:2, Insightful)
Is it just me, or is this getting a little overboard? There are 6+ billion people on this planet, and on the one hand we celebrate the uniqueness of people, but on the other hand we have to label all those who don't fall within some certain category of "normal"?
Does anyone else smell a lot of bullshit here?
Just because some people don't have the skills (preface your term to that here) that other people do, we have to give them a label as having a syndrome or some other psychosis?
Asperger Syndrome kids have great difficulty recognizing the visual cues in a face for example
Ever played poker?
Such people are very sensitive to being crowded, or loud or sudden noises
So what? I don't like crowds, either, but I can read people very well. Perhaps that's why hanging out in crowds sucks. Anyone who's just sat and watched the interactions in a crowd of people knows what I mean.
Think of all the little things that kind of irritate you a little - people interrupting you when concentrating, strong smells, sirens, etc.
That's 99% of humanity, if you add a few definitions of irritation to your list, like, Muzak - add that to that list and it'll skew your statistics to hell.
people with Asp. Syn. don't have that trivial self control - they have to make a concious effort to not be overwhelmed by such "little things".
Sometimes I can deal with them, sometimes I can't - like hearing the same friccin' music at work all the time. Sometimes I shut it out - and sometimes I'm nearly postal at hearing the same crap again, and again, and again. Is that a "little thing"?
Think of all the little things that kind of irritate you a little - people interrupting you when concentrating, strong smells, sirens, etc. You're likely able to just tolerate them without thinking about it - people with Asp. Syn. don't have that trivial self control - they have to make a concious effort to not be overwhelmed by such "little things".
To their advantage most of them also tend to be really smart and/or have superb memory.
Crap.
Well, shit, not to toot my own horn, but I guess I fall into those categories. So do most of the people in the world who are irritated at the repetitious bullshit (TV ads, ClearChannel playlists, 4000 years of politicians and their same ol' screeds, etc) that we have to deal with all the time.
This is not a troll - and I'm sorry - but reading this, and the links I googled about AS - it's not that it pisses me off personally, but it strikes me as very, very bad science, driven by an agenda, said agenda being money. As I said above, sooner or later, given the niche to be filled, every human behavior can/will be be explained under some "syndrome" or another. Certainly we're going that way with our politics.
So tell me, thrillseeker - what does your nick say about how you view life, versus what you said? I'm insanely curious
I'm sorry, but this strikes me as being right along the lines of the "Don't judge people" crap that I used to hear as a kid. Judge people?
The main thing that distinguishes intelligence from non-intel is that we have the ability to make internal decisions about our surroundings - including other members of our own species - and yet we're not supposed to do so? WTF?
Count me out of the human "race".
Man,
Re:One word - Karate (Score:5, Insightful)
He bought the drinks, and dinner. It wasn't inexpensive. I offered to, but he'd not hear of it. I guess one could consider that getting kicked. I don't. I considered it making peace. After nearly 21 years, it was worth it; considering the circumstances, kicking his ass would have been redundant. I could have. What would have been the point?
There are times in one's life when you just have to let shit go. I did.
SB
Make him a "band guy" (Score:2, Insightful)
Have him read this (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Another word : Ausbergers (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Easy... (Score:1, Insightful)
I think I agree with most of what you've said. Putting gifted kids together does help. Although by the time I got put with gifted kids, which was in 4th grade, I was *already* so pissed at the world for being stoooopid that I couldn't even mix well with the gifted kids at that point and was already seriously non-motivated. So, I would add: put gifted kids together as early as you can do so.
Second, wanting your kid to be normal is probably not good. You shouldn't want your kid to be something they're not. However, learning to mix well with normal people, relate to them (even though they are different), etc. can be a good thing. It will make their life muuuch easier in the future. And, by the way, some normal people are pretty cool in some cases.
Sure, make him WORSE. (Score:5, Insightful)
You want to fuck the kid up, stick him with a bunch of primates that play sports all day. See how he likes his life in a few years.
competition doesn't help everyone (Score:2, Insightful)
Now, on the other hand, don't have a kid try for a sport that has cuts, is really competitive, and they aren't good at. There was one guy try out for the JV B-ball team and he was absolutely terrible on the court. He had apparently been practicing for a while (playing with his friends). However, he never improved, and when you looked at him play it just seemed like it was a bad idea to begin with. I think he was crushed when the coach basically told him to stop and that he had no chance. But sports where there are not many throw-away spots, you cannot give spots to the ungifted.
Moral of the stories... competition isn't for everyone?!?... hmm, oh well.
not necessarily that (Score:4, Insightful)
Plus, it can be rather isolating when even most adults haven't got a clue about the things you're interested in.
Sometimes I think that it would be easier to be average and to go along happily clueless of anything below the surface of things.
Two recommendations (Score:1, Insightful)
Teach him to play soccer, he'll get good exercise and will be forced to socialize with team members.
(soccer is not dependent on hand-eye coordination, only foot-eye coordination which is easier to learn) You usually get a different type of 'jock' playing soccer, not as much a meathead and usually more excepting.
You made the right choice (Score:5, Insightful)
social skills are so "nineties" (Score:2, Insightful)
Ballroom Dance (Score:1, Insightful)
Ballroom Dancing does wonder for a guy with girls. When your forced to dance with a girl, 3 inches away from them, actually making, you know, physical contact with a girl, and your forced to do this two hours a day every day, you get VERY comfortable VERY fast. I used to be absoloutly pathetic with girls, never been on a date or anything. I joined Ballroom Dance company at my univiserity as a bit of a fluke, changed my whole percption on life socially, and now I current have a girlfriend where before I never even went on a date. Trust me, Ballroom Dancing will do wonders to a guy who doesn't know how to act towards ladies. Not only that, it will teach you how to treat a girl. How to lead them, guide them, work with them, etc.
-Drew
Re:Sports (Score:1, Insightful)
You are not your kids best friend but their parent and you should act like that. Say no to some things and teach them right and wrong.
It doesnt matter if the kids play sports or not, as long as you dont spoil them rotten and give in every time they throw a fit.
Re:Another word : Ausbergers (Score:3, Insightful)
It also gives them an excuse to continue to be assholes to people. "Geeks aren't like this," or "you can expect your sysadmin/network admin/other technical type employee to not be so good with people," are the usual excuses. This is bullshit. When you work in a company, you should bloody well learn how to be nice to customers you think are clueless dolts, because if you don't, you'll be replaced by someone like me who can at the first available opportunity. There's no excuse for this kind of attitude.
He likes to think, so.... (Score:2, Insightful)
I learnt a lot, just by watching others and thinking about them. It's good to talk about it with a close friend, too. These two can get you really up to speed on social skills, I think.
Cheers.
Re:Step 1, dress the part (Score:3, Insightful)
Dressing semi-normal is not "conforming", it is *joining society". People who do not know how to properly dress and groom themselves will find themselves being outcast from things their entire life, not just during school. You'll be denied jobs, rejected by the opposite sex, shunned by peers.
All because you still wear your 18 year old transformers t-shirt with holes in the side in public, and/or don't want to spend a lousy 10 bucks every two or three months on a haircut??!?! Man, get a clue and _get_some_clothes_. No amount of self respect is going to make you stop looking abnormal to everyone else, only you can do that.
* Note, that some people are anti-conformist by nature and dress abnormal on purpose (goth, etc ). All the power to them. But these people do not then subsequenty complain that they are rejected because of how they dress, the *know* this in advance and dress this way because of it.
It is people like you who dress and act horribly and *then* later complain about society's treatment that get my goat.
Re:One word - Karate (Score:3, Insightful)
Let me add a few more based on five years of martial arts teaching:
Re:One word - Karate (Score:2, Insightful)
I grew up in restaurants and learned to interact with people and be charming for a living.
Learning to deal with unpleasant human interaction and boredom is worth far more than minimum wage.
Refering to restaurant work as a dangerous waste is missing the opportunities for learning inherent in the situation. Math, science and computers are not the only things worth knowing about. Some of the most valuable lessons I've learned came about through some of the most menial work I've done.
Re:The right word : Asperger Syndrome (Score:1, Insightful)
Uh, if he has a condition that can be diagnosed, sometimes there is a treatment available. Even if there isn't, just 'slapping a label' actually might make him feel better. Ever thought about that?
If the lack of social skills already makes him feel like a freak, it might be a relief to find out there is a rational explanation to it.
Use current strengths to build new ones (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:while modded funny this is actually accurate (Score:3, Insightful)
i dont' give a crap how smart the kid is, only hanging out with phd grad students isn't going to help him socialize, it's gonna show him that he has to be always surrounded by highly intelligent people in order to socialize. i'm not saying take him out and get him drunk, but talk to him, be a friend, make him realize that math, science, and computers aren't all there is to life. make him raelize that socialization is probably far more important than all that other crap, but you gotta do so without making him feel like a dork. get him to come out and say that he wishes he could socialize better. work towards that. once he admits it, he'll realize a whole lot, and want to improve those skills. hanging out with other highly intelligent people, while being fun for him, doesn't help him much. ever phd student i've met only hung out with other superbly intelligent people (other grad students and profs and the like) and weren't that fun to be around for long periods of time, always making stupid jokes regarding whatever subject they studied (like the old "hey baby, wanna see my hard drive?" joke or something like "they f@$K like a bunch of lagamorphs (scientific term for bunnies)"). gets boring after a while and they, too, don't know all that much about socializing since grad school and research becomes your life when you're a phd student. take him out with you and your friends (not to the bar or out drinking, because although you might socialize more while drinking, you dont' want the kid to become an alcoholic). just let him observe, get the other guys to talk with him and joke with him (not make jokes at him). and make sure afterwards, you talk to him about the little observation. this will be better for him than hanging out with older grad students and highly intelligent people. that'll help him through high school (no one should ever go to college early as far as i'm concerned since your body and mind just aren't ready no matter how intelligent or mature you are or think you are) and once he goes to college, he'll make a whole new set of friends and there'll be more people. teach him the valueable lesson about a mid-large sized college, one that offers a whole variety of stuff (like a state school) because that'll give him the opportunity to meet and hang out with people from an extremely varied number of majors and backgrounds, while if he goes somewhere like MIT, they're mostly just as bad as him.
Re:Easy... (Score:2, Insightful)
This is true, to an extent. Asperger's is a form of autism (its true name is Adult Autistic Phycosis), and like all forms of autism it varies in the individual in its intensity. I have been diagnosed with it, and I do have a few of the tendencies (my main problem with my hearing is with computer monitors overheating, fun for nerd...), but I have worked to learn basic social skills, have formed friendships, and am romanically involved. Some people with Asperger's seem to be unable to develop the social skills most posess, but for many they can be learned. My recomendation is to read up on basic phycology, and have family members help by answering the fairly anoying question "what are you thinking?" - this question is golden, because after a while one can learn facial cues in others. Its not perfect, but it certainly has helped me. As with oversensitivity, I find that several simple medatative tequniques help me with ignoring the unimportant stimulie. Once again, its not perfect - instead of taking in too much one takes in too little, but it can help. If meditation is too hard, codeine can dull the sences enough, as well as relax ones inhibitions enough to help with social functionality. Acting lessons are also a good thing, because it helps one to learn emotional responses that in reality one wouldn't posses. Singing in a corus helps with the learning to deal with loud, irritating noise, as well as puts one in a good social enviorment. And my final recomendation - Read slashdot. Not a joke, slashdot does wonders for my social skills. I may make anoying posts, and my journal is best left unread, but I learn from my mistakes, and I watch what types of comments are best accepted, and what are found to be "troll", or "flamebait". Many times these opinions and insights can be used in social situations.
So yes, I am a socially challenged nerd that says very odd things in conversation that I personally find hilariouse or insightful, that makes very little sence, but god-damn-it, I can learn.
The pink monkeys told me that in retrospect, making my own vodka was a bad idea
Re:Cross Country (Score:3, Insightful)
Martial arts are cool, as long as you find a good teacher that's able to work with you as an individual and is not there just to make some cash and look good to the newbies.
hacking humans 101 (Score:1, Insightful)
Only 3 things... (Score:1, Insightful)
1) self confidence
2) practice
3) desire
And without the 3rd one, the other 2 are pretty useless. Notice, however that all 3 are internal to the kid & won't come from an outside source. The only thing you can do is try to introduce him into situations where he can build self confidence and situations where he HAS to interact with people in order to get himself something he wants (thus creating the desire) - best, of course, if you can get both of those at the same time.
Re:Smile. It goes further than you think... (Score:3, Insightful)
people actually commented that I was much happier after a week of doing this, and I felt a lot more confident.
now when I get stressed at work or depressed I catch myself walking with my head down and make a concerted effort to lift it back up and look at the world instead of my clown feet.
it truely is the little things like that that can change others perceptions of you. But as you said, smiling really is key. I know some pretty evil/horrible people, but not one of them wouldn't return a smile.
t.
Re:Asberger's, ADD (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:One word - Karate (Score:4, Insightful)
Yep, knocking or kicking the living shit out of the school bully is something a gifted or not-so-gifted kid should do to get some confidence. Sure... Stop right there. Just how surprised would you be, if I were to tell you, that a skilled expression can modify your thoughts, a lot more than you have ever imagined? And it'll be subtle. As in, you'll not even realize. As you're reading the words I've written, and you're still wondering what I'm actually speaking about, it may be, that you already feel deep inside you, that words really can make a difference.
Now, stop, just for a second, and think about the claim I made in the end of the previous paragraph. Would you've agreed with that unless I'd written the previous sentences? Notice that my English isn't perfect, English isn't even one of the official languages where I live, but still I can change your mind with just a couple of simple sentences of that language. Did you notice how this paragraph already changed your thoughts? If English is your native language, notice, for example, that you cannot fluently read over any sentence that contains the word stop. Just try not to stop while reading this sentence with words like stop and wait thrown in between other words like halt and pause. Did you notice that? You mind made a little pause during every one of those 'magic' words.
If the kid were really gifted, I'd give him a psychology book or two. Or make it sociology or psychotherapy. And then I'd tell him to try the skills he learns from those books with people he doesn't already know. Let me tell you, it's sometimes frightening how closely some people follow the models listed in countless books. And in the same time, you value the people that go against the known models so much more. As he's trying the new skills in action, he'll, as a side effect, learn to deal with previously unknown people (also known as social skills). Soon enough, he'll find that the typical shit written in a typical psychology book, other than the basics, is just theories after theories and it doesn't apply to reality. But by that time, it's already too late; he's already learned some social skills! And it might be that he likes those new skills. I've one question to ask: how surprised would you be, if you had picked up some psychology books by the end of the next week just because you read this message? That's something to think about.
Do you really think that having a good coordination has anything to do with good social skills? If not, why should a kid without social skills take martial arts course? To help with the lack of social skills? Why not something that helps, instead?
BAND. Tell him to learn an Instrument. (Score:2, Insightful)
It sounds lame, but band is really a great way to break into being somewhat social. If the kid shows any sort of musical aptitude you should tell him to get some private lessons on an instrument (of his choice) and then to join his school band. If he chooses trumpet though, be careful because he may become an arrogant prick
Band consists af a whole bunch of other nerds and geeks, but from varying backgrounds of geekdom. Also, there usually tends to be quite a few other strangelings in there so he won't feel alone.
Band will create a social environment where people _must_ interact with him, and he _must_ interact with others. By the time he gets into high school, he will at least have basic social skills.
Also, you are almost gauranteed a woman if you are in band due to the "band inbreeding" effect.
Have fun,
- Heath
Re:One word - Meditation (Score:1, Insightful)
from the typical liberal arts benefits/deficiencies, I attribute it to giving me lots of insight about dealing with people.
Another thing that can cause you to handle interactions more adaptively is meditation. I'm not saying you have to buy into any "school" of meditation but just basic mantra or breath counting types. Leshan has a good one called "how to meditate". It improves concentration and reduces anxiety.
Regarding Martial Arts. My daughter has been taking martial arts for 4 years(age 8) and she does positive things at her age that I would have never done. There is the coordination benefit, but the main thing is that she has to learn complicated forms and steps, help teach complicated forms and steps and get up and test for belts in front of dozens of adults and peers. I don't know about you but when I was 5 or 6 I didn't ever have to do that type of thing.
Anyway:
A)psychology gives you insight into your own behavior.
B)meditation is good for calming down and not over thinking your experience.
C)Martial Arts are good, NOT to just kick ass, but to develop confidence and a skill for which someone can be proud. A byproduct is that they won't feel the need to fight, because they won't be as easily threatened. And if all else fails they may win the fight (sorry Martial Arts doesn't assure that you will always win fights).
Good points (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps (Score:3, Insightful)