Looking for a Better Back-Up Power Solution? 67
ThisIsFred asks: "I maintain a small network (about 1500 users, 9 servers in four locations), and happen to be in an area where the power company's quality of service could be better. Reliability has been slowly improving over the past few years, but we still experience dozens of outages during the course of the year. Unfortunately, all of our un-interruptible power supplies give in after about two years of service, regardless of the brand I buy. I have stacks of lead-acid batteries waiting to get hauled away by a subcontractor licensed to dispose of hazardous materials. This is an expensive service, my employer doesn't want to allocate funds for it every two years. I don't like having to give up space for the storage of dead batteries, and I don't like wasting my time replacing them. Should my employer be responsible for the disposal fees? Shouldn't vendors selling new UPS units be legally required to take back old batteries, like with auto batteries? And what sort of solution should I be looking at that is lower maintenance? Currently I am using smaller, standalone units (1400 VA), because it is really hard for me to secure the funds for something more expensive. I'd like to see what other folks do. I trust examples based on Slashdot's real experience more than some vendor's sales pitch. I need to put together a good argument for the next budget review."
generators (Score:2, Interesting)
Still requires a UPS... (Score:3, Informative)
You still have to have a UPS to cover the time between the power outage and the time the generators are spooled up and producing power.
Re:generators (Score:2)
Or you can plug your UPS into itself so the UPS will keep its charge while running your systems. (This will not work, it is only a
+1 ! (Score:2)
Generators aren't cheap, but they're not incredibly expesive, either, when you factor
Hauled away? Battery stores must accept (Score:4, Informative)
I don't know how many batteries you have, but here in Georgia, battery distributors (Voltex, Interstate, etc) are *required* to accept batteries for disposal, at no charge. In fact, at places like Sears, they charge you a core charge if you don't bring a battery in. Something like $7.
You might have to pay someone to haul them to the distributor, but that's just a labor charge.
Re:Hauled away? Battery stores must accept (Score:1)
There you go: just move the operation to Georgia.
Options (Score:5, Informative)
Second, some manufacturers do take back the battery. APC includes a pre-paid UPS return for spent batteries. I don't know if it's true for every battery they sell but it is for all I've looked at.
Third, many recyclers take batteries. My city recycling center has a place to recycle lead-acid batteries for free.
Remember that deep-discharging is very hard on lead-acid. If you only need to prevent data loss then set up a quick auto shutdown on the UPS protected machines. If you need long run time consider an extended-run UPS with a large enough battery that they don't end up deep discharging. (I know, they won't spring for the $$$)
Alternately, get some sort of generator that fits your situation so the UPS is only running a short time and not deep discharging. (I know, they won't spring for the $$$)
You may want to review the OSHA and environmental laws - not to be a whistle blower but just to point out the potential risk of keeping stacks of dead lead-acid batteries around. We have to include ours on an annual report to the city.
Although you (or most likely "they") won't like the answers all you can do is document the frequency of power failure, the resulting annual costs, backup options and associated costs and any relevant regulations of which you are aware. (I just found out we had to add a backup battery to our PBX due to an employment regulation requiring access to 911 even in a power outage.)
They may not decide (their job based on your input combined with other knowledge) to give you what you want but you will have done your job.
That may not be an option (Score:3, Informative)
What you might want for this is external batteries. More on this in another post, maybe.
Re:That may not be an option (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Options (Score:2)
well.. if they sold it they must take it (Score:2)
how hard can it be to check from the local environment activists whats the state of affairs in your local country/state? not that hard. please do it.
once again you'll only get the answers that slashdotters think that the state of the affairs SHOULD be, not necessarely what they are in reality.
48Volts DC (Score:3, Interesting)
The phone company uses 48 volt DC batteries for all their comptuters. For this reason most equipment intended for the server room has the option of either AC (120/220V,50/60hz), or DC (48 volts) power supplies. Good batteries will last for years in this application. This system when done properly will run for days without any Mains power, and you are connected directly to the batteries at all time so there is no switching issues.
Note that you won't save money in the short run. However if your power is as bad as you say it might in the long run. In any case it is far more dangerious than normal mains power, despite less voltage. Still when 99.999% reliability isn't good enough it is your only choice.
As my dad always said, good ideas cost money.
Re:48Volts DC (Score:1)
We focus on Telco, but have AC systems and scale up very, very large.
Check out some of our products, you can contact our sales department for complete custom design services, priced to fit your budget.
Battery Systems [magnetektelecom.com]
We can take any number of batteries, and match it with the right sized UPS to give you as much runtime as you want. We can even come out and bus your server room.
(Jeez, I should be a salesman!)
-DF
Damn, I recycle them for cash (Score:4, Informative)
I filled my truck bed, drove 30 miles, and got $40.00.. (paid for my gas and lunch and a bit more to boot)
Re:Damn, I recycle them for cash (Score:1, Informative)
My advice, start contacting recycle centers. Lead Acid batteries are worth money and you should not pay to have them disposed of. I am sure that the disposal company that you pay just sells them to a recycle center.
Options (Score:3, Insightful)
2: Hazardous waste disposal fees? Bullshit. Batteries are chock full of recyclable lead, and should NEVER be "disposed of" except to make new batteries. Look up "recycling, batteries" in your local yellow pages, and I think you may have some luck. Definitely think local on this - shipping any distance will kill you.
3: Having dismissed the whole "hazardous waste" thing above, I will now state that batteries are indeed hazardous. Or at least not something you want just sitting around. Your boss is being foolish if he thinks that by "not budgeting" for disposal, that makes the issue go away. Batteries can leak acid and give off explosive hydrogen. If something bad happens, your Boss will like paying the cost of that problem even less than your current problem.
RTFA (Score:1)
Nor was I implying that desulfation was THE answer, just a possible solution worthy of a couple of minutes of googling.
Re:Options (Score:2)
Making hydrogen explode is difficult. The danger of it happening by accident is probably less than the danger of an earthquake knocking over a stack of batteries and causing injury by spilling acid on the floor.
Re:Options (Score:1)
Tell that to the people who were on board the Hindenberg...
Re:Options (Score:2)
Why? The Hindenberg didn't explode.
Re:Options (Score:2)
>Why? The Hindenberg didn't explode.
And hydrogen didn't cause the fire. The hydrogen barely even contributed to it until most of the ship had already burned.
Now, if you pre-mix two parts hydrogen to one part oxygen... the smallest spark will make a big boom.
- Peter
It was the baloon :Hindenbe: H2 Explode Re:Options (Score:1)
The baloon caused the problems on the Hindenberg!
The witnesses reported a colorfull fireball.. that color was from the paint/balloon!!! They made the skin out of a super flamable material!
Passing out.... use google to verify
Re:Options (Score:2)
But making the battery explode is easy.
Just FYI (Score:2)
So you're getting skrewed.
And as far as the 2 year problem... I replace all batteries once a year. Its just the way it is. To make it easier on yourself just try using UPS units with larger batteries (less number of batteries but larger units).
sell them? (Score:1)
UPS (Score:1, Informative)
I remember reading about these, (Score:2)
Re:UPS (Score:2)
There's a reason people use lead-acid storage batteries, they've proven to be a solid performer at a low price for years.
This guy's company not paying for proper upkeep and disposal sounds so typical -- someone said they "needed a UPS" but didn't engineer the solution or document it and replacement of batteries was never budgeted-for.
"Bad job" to whomever did that. Better to let the company suffer through a few outages and then present the prop
Retrofit to external batteries (Score:5, Informative)
Trolling/deep cycle batteries are available retail for rather reasonable sums. Some of them are sealed, but some are not; a non-sealed battery allows you to check it for water level and state of charge (via the specific gravity of the electrolyte). Plus, they usually offer several times the AH rating of the little gray things (good if outages may be extended). The UPS will feed quite nicely from most any 12-volt DC source.
If you decide to hook up something like this, you'll have three issues:
It's up for you to research and present to your boss for a decision. I have a little UPS which had dead batteries and the honkin' hunka lead that I hooked up in their place carried me nicely through last August's blackout, but your results may differ.
Re:Retrofit to external batteries (Score:2)
Re:Retrofit to external batteries (Score:3, Informative)
The oversimplified rules of getting good battery life are
o Don't deep-cycle anything but a deep-cycle battery
o Don't overcharge them
o Don't leave them undercharged for any length of time.
The safety rules are non-negotiable:
o Don't charge a non-sealed battery indoors
o Fuse the leads AT the battery terminals
o Don't leave exposed terminals where a tool or piece
Re:Retrofit to external batteries (Score:2)
[yah, I'll head the warnings, move it out side and fuse at the terminal.]
I think I need to recalcbrate my APC unit though. There appears to be about 4 adjustments. One that I already made was to set the output voltage and frequency. They were way off with the new battery, which has me confused, because as far as I could tell, the voltage was the similar to the old battery (just over 12V). Does +
Battery Issue Solved (Score:3, Funny)
Either way, if anyone catches you claim you were digging up bodies for some sort of ritual, you'll do less time that way.
Yet another problem waiting to happen... (Score:5, Informative)
Lead acid batteries, as a general rule, only provide 50% of their capacity before destroying themselves trying to meet your needs. UPS's are emergency power sources ONLY. If you are using them to power stuff through power outages lasting more than a minute or two more than once or twice a year, then you are not using them correctly. If you use them until you drain the battery past 50% then the batteries are going to DIE horrible creeping death.
Furthermore, if you overburden a UPS and it doesn't shut down because you're pulling too much amperage you may end up boiling the battery, which does not only reduce its life significantly, but "Vents With Flame" (to put it mildly).
In your situation, UPSs can ONLY be used to keep the power on long enough to power off the servers/workstations (ie, less than a minute, maybe two) or until an external generator kicks in.
Again let me reiterate.
UPSs are NOT "Powers out. Hope it comes on before the UPS runs out."
UPSs are instead "OH @#$%! THE POWER'S GONE! [SHUT EVERYTHING DOWN | START THE GENERATOR]!!!"
Therefore if your boss does not understand the necessity of a generator, then you must convince him to purchase UPSs that are rated to last at least twice as long as you could possibly leave the computers on after the power goes out. Ideally you'll also get UPSs which are rated at twice the current you might be pulling so you don't heat up the battery while you are shutting down (a power hungry operation for most servers: shutting down)
Lastly, concerning waste. Most battery centers accept and recycle old lead acid batteries for free. Check out batteriesplus.com for locations near you of a company I use and trust. Buy your replacements from them and they'll gladly recycle your old ones. Even if you don't purchase from them they generally accept them anyway.
Do a cost/performance analysis on a generator. Tell them that batteries last twice as long (or longer) if you use them properly and get a generator. Show them that it's probably cheaper to get appropiately sized UPS unit(s) and a generator than it is to buy a bunch of small UPSs and no generator. Also demonstrate how it will benefit your customers, and how this should be sold to them.
So. Accept this wisdom, and go forth and spread the word. Good luck.
-Adam
Re:Yet another problem waiting to happen... (Score:5, Interesting)
The building-wide UPS powers a special outlet in every cubicle that everyone's computer is plugged into. If the power goes out, the lights may go out while the external generator gets up to speed, but the computers stay on (although we do have some employees who like to move things around - we find out who they are at the next power outage).
The advantages of this are that the UPS doesn't get used very often, and when it does, it is only for a short period. However, if there are major power problems, we can stay up for a relatively long period of time.
Parent is accurate (Score:2)
I'm also not sure how much to trust the charging circuity in UPSes. If you really want maximum life from a battery, for example, the charger should adjust the float voltage depending on the temperature of the battery.
Re:Yet another problem waiting to happen...BOOM (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Yet another problem waiting to happen...BOOM (Score:3, Interesting)
What we're doing... (Score:5, Informative)
We are of course going with a different company and generator, but it gives you an idea of price and features. $3500 might be too much for your situation. Keep in mind that you will still want to keep your UPSs in place (for the ~1-3 minutes that these things take to get up to speed)...
But, if you must have power to all of your systems, all of the time, a natural gas generator is probably the way to go. Before you do any of this, you will want to check out how much power you are actually using and how big of a generator you will need...the one linked to should be enough for the 9 servers you need as well as room to upgrade...
As you can tell, most of the natural gas generators also take propane, which is still good if you don't get natural gas service, or as a backup for the natural gas...
A little speculation about that... (Score:2)
Are you planning on having Natural gas tanks on-site? What if whatever knocks out the power (landslide, hurricane, earthquake, etc) also knocks out the local gas service?
Re:A little speculation about that... (Score:2)
Around here (North-Eastern US), gas lines are burried at least 6 feet below ground. If something happened that was ba
Re:A little speculation about that... (Score:2)
But... the generator in the link can run on natural gas or propane. With propane giving a higher output. Other than zoning regulations, propane is easily obtained. I'm planning to get something similar when I build my new house. Since I'm using heat pump(s), I won't have natural gas service.
BTW, Generac is a good brand. Don
Re:A little speculation about that... (Score:2)
Fuel Cells? (Score:2)
battery maintenance (Score:1, Informative)
If your grid's that unreliable, think "off-grid." (Score:2)
With my little 1000VA APC toy, I'm already at the point where my powerhungry G5 can be the only thin
One thing to remember (Score:2)
At my last job, we had four 500KVA units... Yes.. 500 KVA... They were powerware units... They were in fairly good condion except for the ba
Alternatives? flywheels? Fuel cells? (Score:2)
Then there are high-tech flywheels.
Other options... (Score:2, Interesting)
You could also think about VPN, if you have 4 locations, is the power situation better elsewhere or are the 4 locations in the same general area? if they are spread out, maybe think about moving your servers to the area with the better power, a
Smaller Needs (Score:2)
Re:Smaller Needs (Score:2)
Generally speaking, a UPS doesn't make a lot of sense for that kind of situation. If the power goes out briefly, your stereo isn't at risk for data loss. Even a TiVo, despite being just a specialised computer with hard drives and everything, isn't going to benefit much from a keeping the power on, because that's the standard way to turn them off anyway: pull the plug. And a TV is probably going to suck a UPS dry in pretty short order.
The main t
Re:Smaller Needs (Score:2)
Is there a formula for determining the best VA range for the pieces of equipment I choose for a given uptime requirement? I'm not too up on basic electricity.
Thanks.
Telecom grade hardware (Score:2)
Re:Telecom grade hardware (Score:1)
It always made me wonder what would happen to that engine if the power went out AND the municipal water supply lost pressure...
Parallel Question (Score:2)
Re:Parallel Question (Score:2)
Nuh uh.
I disremember all the mechanics of it, but essentially, the integrated charger in the UPS will be unable to supply enough oomph (voltage? amperage?) to the batteries when charging and will burn itself out trying. Usually a literal burn-out with all the attendant flames and smoke.
N
Re:Parallel Question - DIY high capacity UPS (Score:1)
That's not true. A lead acid battery (whether sealed or not)
ideally has almost zero impedance, and unlike NiCd and NiMh,
it's charge level is measured by the voltage across the terminals,
not the charge current delta.
So connecting bigger cells (of the same voltage) works fine,
and will simply yield longer run-time (and longer charge time).
Here's a picture of my 105Ah 24v, deep-cycle battery setup for a
standard APC 1400 UPS.
This UPS even has a handy battery disconnect plug on the
back, which can be used to co