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Security Technology

A Site that Lists Systems w/o DRM? 49

Posted by Cliff from the opting-out-of-rights-management dept.
timdaly asks: "I'm about to purchase new hardware. I understand that DRM has been added to the BIOS of some systems. Is anyone aware of a site that lists which systems are DRM-disabled? I don't want to purchase hardware that has any DRM. Like unique keys on CPUs the DRM technology seems to be more of a threat than a useful tool."
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A Site that Lists Systems w/o DRM? More

A Site that Lists Systems w/o DRM?

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  • Simple... (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Apple.com

  • no posts? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by nightherper ( 635698 )
    Weird.

    I'd also like to know if we can keep track of the DRM "infection". I don't see DRM as being good at all for the consumer. Perhaps in some very small ways, like having control over a hateful email sent to someone else, but no one should be doing such things anyway.

  • Stay away. Stay far far away. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Cecil ( 37810 ) on Wednesday March 24, 2004 @11:32PM (#8663838) Homepage
    If there are any non-DRM BIOSes out there it's just because they haven't been updated yet. Don't buy them now, or you'll have no choice but to buy them for your next computer. AMI is gone [slashdot.org], Phoenix is gone [slashdot.org] and Award no longer exists except as a sub-brand of Phoenix. Yes, this is a scary phenomenon. Vote with dollars. Apple's [apple.com] OpenFirmware doesn't contain any DRM (who knows for how long), Sun [sun.com] also uses OpenFirmware I believe?

    If you absolutely insist on sticking to PC/Windows, consider supporting the OpenBIOS [openbios.org] project, but it's not available as a hardware BIOS, nor in any motherboards that I know of, it's an after-the-purchase flash update (plus god only knows if it works properly). And since you're trying to flash away the DRM in the BIOS, you never know, it may not be allowed in the future. After all, we have to keep "viruses" from flashing our BIOSes now don't we? So lets make sure those flashes are cryptographically signed by Award/Phoenix/AMI...

    • Re:Stay away. Stay far far away. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by EzInKy ( 115248 ) on Thursday March 25, 2004 @12:13AM (#8664136)
      If there are any non-DRM BIOSes out there it's just because they haven't been updated yet. Don't buy them now, or you'll have no choice but to buy them for your next computer. AMI is gone, Phoenix is gone and Award no longer exists except as a sub-brand of Phoenix. Yes, this is a scary phenomenon. Vote with dollars. Apple's OpenFirmware doesn't contain any DRM (who knows for how long), Sun also uses OpenFirmware I believe?

      Interestingly enough, there's a front page article [slashdot.org] on the LinuxBios [linuxbios.org] project. According to the linked article:

      LinuxBIOS works on 64-bit and 32-bit CPUs. CPUs supported include the Alpha, K8, K7, PowerPC, P4, PIII, PII, Cyrix (VIA), Geode (now AMD) and SC520 (AMD). Chipsets are too numerous to list. Form factors of mainboards range from the smallest PC/104 systems to the largest K8 systems. An IBM PPC 970 port is in progress.

      As for Apple, trading software lock-in for hardware lock-in is hardly a solution.

      • From the LinuxBios docs... (Score:4, Informative)

        by Micro$will ( 592938 ) on Thursday March 25, 2004 @12:59AM (#8664423) Homepage Journal
        Step 6)
        NOTE: BE ADVISED THAT THIS STEP CAN HURT OR KILL YOU! YOU ARE WORKING WITH A POWERED-ON COMPUTER AT THIS POINT. THE COMPUTER NEEDS TO BE OPENED UP, AND YOU NEED TO REMOVE A CHIP WHILE THE COMPUTER IS ON. IF YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS TYPE OF WORK, DO NOT DO IT! WE TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS AT THIS STEP. BEFORE DOING THIS STEP WITH POWER ON, YOU SHOULD TRY IT WITH POWER OFF.

        Figure out if you're going to burn the DoC on the build or LinuxBIOS machine. It has to be the machine with MTD modules.
        Open the machine (LEAVE THE POWER ON), yank the flash, and plug in the DoC. We recommend you practice this first with the power off. Make sure that whatever you do, you are not shorting things out. Avoid using a metal tool!
        NOTE: YOU CAN HURT YOURSELF AT THIS STEP. We can't take any responsibility for what happens to you here. If you haven't done this, or are not trained, or have a history of getting hurt by hardware, DON'T DO IT.

        While I don't think 12 volts will electrocute me, I'm a little reluctant to swap a chip in a running machine. Until this project is at the point where I can just flash the BIOS with a DOS floppy or similar, I'll stick with what works.

        • Re:From the LinuxBios docs... (Score:5, Informative)

          by HoneyBunchesOfGoats ( 619017 ) on Thursday March 25, 2004 @04:50AM (#8665361)
          This is in fact quite harmless. In normal operation, the BIOS is loaded into memory right at the start, and then the chip isn't touched after that. If you have a borked BIOS, and a spare machine with the same type chip, you can pull the BIOS chip from the working machine while it's on, stick in the borked chip, program with the BIOS for the borked motherboard, then swap the chips out again. Has saved my ass a number of times, when BIOS flashes fail and whatnot. The chance of harming anything is next to nil, just make sure you don't put the chip in backwards.
          • wow, that's some great advice I've never heard before. thanks (+1, informative)
          • This happened to a friend of mine (while I was watching) - he made the mistake of looking at the sticker on the top of the chip when he was checking the proper orientation. Needless to say, the sticker was applied 'backwards' relative to the bios chip that was being switched out... nice fast 'pop' and a little smoke coming out of the window that was once covered by the sticker! Obviously a dumb mistake, but one that none of us who observed it are likely to repeat!

        • Re:From the LinuxBios docs... (Score:2, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward
          500 millivolts can kill you with enough current.

          Electricity is very dangerous at almost any voltage, if the right conditions are met.

          Don't kid yourself. Unless you understand the voltage current relationship and what parts of your body electricity can kill you with, you are playing russian roulette.

          In this case, most of the voltages and currents are low enough to not kill you, but electricity has a way of finding harmful places to shock you... don't underestimate it's potential (no pun intended) to kill
          • If you're connected to the 500 mV source through a superconductor and it can provide all the current needed, then yes, you can die.

            But: seriously, do you think a computer power source could supply enough current under so low voltage?
            • If it runs through your heart. Running through your heart also means in one hand, up your arm, across your chest, down the other arm and out your hand.

              The "problem" is getting the current to flow through your relatively nonconductive or highly resistive skin. This is why the famous CPR/defib paddles are energized with relatively higher voltages, so that the current can penetrate the skin. The low voltage "solution" is sweaty palms and sharp contact points. Can you say nervous? Can you say stamped metal cas
      • Interestingly enough, there's a front page article on the LinuxBios project.

        LinuxBios, good catch. I think that may have been what I was thinking of when I typed 'openbios' into google, but both look interesting.

        As for Apple, trading software lock-in for hardware lock-in is hardly a solution.

        It's more like trading a screwdriver that only allows you to unscrew the screws on particular objects, for a screwdriver that only accepts a few particular brands of hex bit. They're both potentially draconian

    • The sky isn't falling (Score:5, Interesting)

      by 0x0d0a ( 568518 ) on Thursday March 25, 2004 @04:57AM (#8665374) Journal
      If there are any non-DRM BIOSes out there it's just because they haven't been updated yet.

      Oh, for *Christ's sake*. Look, you silly ninny. Part of the TCPA spec is that it be *user-disablable*. A user *must* be able to flip off TCPA on a system that uses it.

      Now, to this I've heard two counterarguments:

      a) Compatibility. "Yes, but the vendors will just make their software not *run* without TCPA because they insist on having TCPA-based protection for their product." Fine. Buying a PPC or a SPARC or some oddball x86 box isn't going to do a damned thing to help you here. If a vendor isn't willing to make a product that works without TCPA, they aren't going to make that product that works without TCPA. It means people that have x86 boxes with TCPA off *and* Mac/Solaris/etc users are simply excluded from using that product. You gain nothing by switching platforms.

      b) Slippery Slope. "Oh, but they don't have it on *today*, but I've seen someone speculate that the TCPA spec will be changed someday to *prevent* people from disabling TCPA!" Okay. For starters, this is astoundingly unlikely. There is *zero* reason for any BIOS vendor, OEM, or software publisher to want to prevent you from disabling TCPA. They simply have no incentive. It doesn't help them an iota. If they want their software not to run on a TCPA-less system, they won't let it run on a TCPA-less system. It doesn't help prevent piracy or let anyone charge higher prices, or do a single thing for anyone, and a few people will complain bitterly about it. Why bother? In the second place, no barriers are being erected that will make it harder to switch if such an unlikely event did take place. If the whole world suddenly says "no TCPA disabling for you!"...fine. You can switch.

      The main group of people that I've seen ranting about TCPA have been overzealous Apple fans, who are apparently trying to confuse and worry people into switching to the Mac.

      Oh, yes. This doesn't affect Linux users in the least, either. The only possible people who would be affected would be Windows users.

      Finally, I just don't see the fuss over TCPA. It's useless for securing media (far too many ways to break it in any kind of a real-world implementation, it only takes one break to let media be spread across the Internet, etc). It may have minimal use (extremely minimal, since it is interfaced with in a standard manner) in securing software, but people already happily crack things using SafeCD and similar pieces of software -- players pirating software already frequently use cracked or modified copies. All they need to do is crack and distribute a copy that doesn't require TCPA (just like copies of software that check validity over the network or copies of software that use CD protection or whatnot.

      TCPA is the most overblown fear that people here have had for *ages*. It's really amazing. If you want to get LinuxBIOS or something, great -- but be realistic, and do it for the fast-boot benefits and other nice things in LinuxBIOS, not because of some phantom fears that people have managed to raise about an Orwellian computing environment. It's just not going to happen.

  • if non out there.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by danalien ( 545655 ) on Wednesday March 24, 2004 @11:42PM (#8663918) Homepage
    then I'd like to propose

    • nondrm.slashdot.org
    hey, I don't recall another site that dislikes DRM as much as the slashdot crowd... so why don't we make an effort and do a 'nondrm' zone, a zone that is stuffed with 'how to circumvent' DRM'd-anything :)
  • Just wait util Linux Bios comes out in full force... http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/0 3/24/2327229&mode=thread&tid=106&tid=137&tid=185&t id=190

    • Re:Heh (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ebrandsberg ( 75344 ) on Thursday March 25, 2004 @02:12AM (#8664852)
      From the LinuxBIOS article, apparently Tyan now even ships boards with LinuxBIOS on request. As it is open source, I don't see how a board that supports LinuxBIOS will ever be required to have DRM. From the LinuxBIOS article, the most interesting point I found was the impact that money had on vendor support. As soon as RFP's for millions of dollars of equipment required LinuxBIOS, the vendors supported it. If you support it, it will continue.

  • DRM watch list (Score:5, Funny)

    by vitroth ( 554381 ) <vitroth@cmu.edu> on Thursday March 25, 2004 @12:47AM (#8664372)
    Theres a site that does exactly what you want available at [REDACTED].

    Hmm.. Thats strange. I can't enter the URL for [REDACTED].

    Oh, [REDACTED]! This new machine from [REDACTED] must have one of those damn [REDACTED] enabled BIOSes. No more [REDACTED] for me. [REDACTED]!

  • Here it is (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Hardware with DRM: One IBM ThinkPad model with TCPA (no software included to use it)

    Hardware without DRM: Everything else.
    • I've got one of these. They have it off be default.
    • I don't see IBM as the company that's going to stop cmoputers users from using Linux. So this is a good thing.

      M-x tinfoil-hat-mode

      Then again, what would stop IBM from letting their hardware run only THEIR version of Linux. Good thing I don't have to go up this hill... it's slippery :)
    • Umm, sorry AC, but I'm rather certain IBM TP's do not implement DRM in their BIOS.
      But if it's the ThinkPad Security Chip [ibm.com] you're referring to, then you're wrong again -- there is preinstalled software to use it. I know so because a colleague of mine has tested it (on his T40 [ibm.com]).
      My TP (T23) doesn't have a security chip, nor would I think it necessary to use one.

      But DRM? I'm quite certain they don't have that.
  • Like unique keys on CPUs the DRM technology seems to be more of a threat than a useful tool

    Can anyone give a specific example of how this is so?

  • Now we do: www.DRMfree.com (Score:5, Informative)

    by techstar25 ( 556988 ) <techstar25 AT gmail DOT com> on Thursday March 25, 2004 @11:43AM (#8667538) Journal
    I just registered it. Email me with links to add. drmfree@techstarweb.com
  • It's up to the LAN card driver to read the MAC address on the ethernet adapter and place it in the TCP/IP packet header. A modified/hacked driver can easily ignore the hardwired MAC and spoof whatever.

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