Off Grid Via Slow Moving River? 452
einstein writes "I live out in the middle of nowhere, and I lose power at the drop of a hat. My house is right next to the Susquehanna river, and all the kinetic energy going past my house makes just want to go off grid. Most homebuilt hydro power is lower volume/high speed. What would be a good, unobtrusive way to generate electricity from a high volume/low speed body of water? I'm between two large hydro dams, so the water level is fairly constant, but does tend to fluctuate 4-6ft in the winter due to ice floes and melting snow. I think maybe a miniature version of one of the recent submerged tidal generators might work... Does anyone have some suggestions on how I might go about this project?" More than a few people have done this before.
The Romans (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:The Romans (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The Romans (Score:3, Interesting)
Stupid Romans (Score:5, Insightful)
If you know of references that rebut the standard historical theory (wouldn't be the first time), please post links or titles. I'd want to read them
Anyway, it's my understanding that water mills began serious development during the "Middle Ages". Modern Western culture is descended from the great cultural renaissance of the 15th century, and we've inherited their prejudice against the "Middle Ages", that 1000-year period after the fall of Rome where Western progress supposedly ground to a halt. But this period was when people started playing with technology seriously, and thinking about ways to use it to make life easier -- and to get rich. In short, it was the period that gave birth to the techno-geek!
Re:Stupid Romans (Score:3, Funny)
Those Romans were smart people...
Re:Stupid Romans (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stupid Romans (Score:3, Funny)
Middle Ages (Score:3, Insightful)
Middle Ages: ~500 C.E. to ~1500 C.E.
Renaissance: mid 1300's C.E. to mid 1700's C.E.
The Dark Ages are rightly named. The late Middle Ages is when civilization reversed its deteriorating trend.
Re:Stupid Romans (Score:4, Insightful)
The right way to think about the middle ages is as a long period of history shared by a many diverse peoples. Their scientific and technological accomplishments may seem puny by our standards, but they were crucial to human progress. Improved crop rotation, use of wind and water power, the beginnings of chemistry... it's a long list.
You want sources? Well, I'm reading Western Europe in the Middle Ages, by Joseph Strayer. This book argues a lot of the things I just said, but it's not primarily about science or technology. I think you'll find the arguments I just made in any history of the middle ages written in the last 20 years. I mean serious history, not the watered-down nonsense they put in standard secondary-school textbooks.
That sounds like a good idea to me (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Don't forget your 60Hz and the phase! (Score:3, Informative)
Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:2)
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:2)
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:2)
Re:yes, but investigate 'net metering' (Score:4, Interesting)
I'd worry about that, too...
Looking at my own electric bill, it divides almost perfectly in half, with 50% going to electric "supply", and 50% going to "distribution". So, even if they paid me the same rate they charge me, it would seem that, no matter how much I produce, I could at best break even (since presumeably I would make the money on supply, but still have to pay almost the same rate for distribution).
I dunno. But personally, I'd stay on the grid (unless something major happened, in which case, I'd make damn sure I had an overly-dramatic Very Big Switch I could throw to disconnect me) just for the convenience factor in case something goes wrong with my own production system (generator breaks, stream dries up, whatever).
As an aside, though, I still consider wind the way to go (though would certainly not suggest we completely skip solar, but I would consider solar more of a backup system than a primary one). With hydroelectric, you need year-round running water with a decent head. With solar, you need a fairly high-capacity storage system for the 60-80% of the day when you can't generate enough to match usage. With any sort of combustion, you need fuel. But with wind? It doesn't even really matter where you live - an 80' tower will produce a few kW just about anywhere. Aside from the "ugly" factor, including a wind turbine into the cost of every new house would reduce our current electric grid from a critical utility, to little more than a backup system. When I finally "settle down", I consider that a major point in my decision of where to buy property - If I can't have a wind turbine due to local BS laws and zoning regs, I won't live there.
Re:yes, but investigate 'net metering' (Score:3, Informative)
Looking at my own electric bill, it divides almost perfectly in half, with 50% going to electric "supply", and 50% going to "distribution". So, even if they paid me the same rate they charge me, it would seem that, no matter how much I produce, I could at best break even (since presumeably I would make the money on supply, but still have to pay almost the same rate for distribution).
I remember reading somewhere, although I don't remember where (fuzzy memory, this), that they're required to credit you 1 kw
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:5, Informative)
Battery system will add a bit to the cost (but still might be worthwhile for keeping "absolutely needed" systems up (refrigerator)). But unlike solar, rivers run always. You can start without it and power your house, sending extra to the grid and making money on it.
But note that a Rolls 375AH battery will cost you $600-$700 and you'll want a few of those. Plus charging systems for them. And replacing them every 5-8 years. (tho fuel cell systems are expected to work for this use within 3-5 years).
HomePower Magazine [homepower.com] is online and in libraries and just had something (Feb? March?) on home hydro [homepower.com]. It's often used with creeks. You can also buy their entire archives on CD.
If you need pressure, but don't think your river has it, note that running water into a large pipe and getting smaller makes pressure enough to turn things.
The easiest way to handle it is with a, er, hill. Divert some of the water off through pipes, let it drop, let it hit your generator and route it back to the river. Filters and cats at the top keep fish out.
storage (Score:5, Informative)
On the batts, the rolls are definetly good, and definetly expensive, along with the crowns. I have found cost comparing, it might be useful to check out local forklift companies and get a battery bank from them. These are deep cycle "traction" batteries in steel boxes. Whoppers, and with batts, it's the lead, the size, bigger is better more or less. You can get a 12 volt bank for around 6-800$ that will hold twice (roughly) as many amp hours as the equivalent-in-money rolls batts. Plus, if you are near any big city with the foirklift dealer, you can go get the thing yourself,(heavy, be prepared for some egyptian engineering to get them in place with levers and ramps and dollies and whatnot) usually rolls batts need to be shipped in,too, kinda spensive...
the forklift batts come 12/24/ 36 / 48 volt so you can pick your voltage requirements. Most home systems are 24 or 12 volt at the storage, depends on how far away your panels are, and how much thick expensive copper wire you want to run. You can (if you really want to) CAREFULLY cut the welded busbars on the top of the forklift batts and do your own custom series/parallel wiring as well,to get whatever voltage you want (say knocking down the 48 to a 24) but I'd recommend just sizing for your needs and purchasing appropriately.
Good luck!
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:3, Funny)
But what happens when the cats over-eat, get fat and die?
Gorillas (Score:5, Funny)
Then you get dogs to eat the cats. If these become a problem, you get gorillas to eat the dogs. The gorillas won't be a problem, because, come winter, they will freeze to death.
I don't think the cats will be a problem, however. Garfield has been over-eating and very fat for 30 or so years now, and I still see his sarcastic face in the funny papers every morning.
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:5, Informative)
This is incorrect. I regularly teach irrigation-related hydraulics classes to professionals in many fields, and this is one of the most common misconceptions about hydraulics. Decreasing pipe size increases velocity, not pressure. Increased velocity in pipes is usually associated with friction loss, or loss of water pressure. Water pressure is only created by the weight of water (with minimal additions from atmospheric pressure) or by mechanical means (pumps).
Increasing the velocity may be beneficial in certain situations, but in this case I would convert the low pressure, low velocity energy from the river to electricity by using gears, pulleys and other mechanical aids. The river has plenty of mass to drive a large water wheel which would, with a high reduction ratio, turn a small shaft on a generator at the speeds needed to generate electricty.
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:4, Informative)
You would have an easier time drawing off the water with a couple 3" pipes.
If I can take a couple gallons/second and drop it out a 4 inch pipe, it might not be able to turn a small turbine/generator. Coming out of a 1" pipe, FASTER, it will be easier. When I hosed down my brother by putting my thumb over the hose end, he didn't care if the water had more pressure or was faster. It was 45PSI either way, I suppose.
I friend of my Mom's restored and old mill and, since he owned the property on both sides of the creek, and since it was a mill before, the town gov't people were actually pretty delighted for him to restore the "large water wheel" that had been there. It provides a fair amount of both mechanical and electrical power for his work - it turns lathes and he demonstrated grinding wheat (though how much wheat we need to grind in Western Ma is sort of in question, but he was playing with the "wiring" - mainly leather straps and gears.
In the microHydro world, you can make power from a small creek. Using a large river and not doing environmental impact reports and living in bureaucracy would suggest water driving a turbine to make power come out.
The ORIGINAL poster didn't say anything about where s/he lives on his river - if they get 2' of ice or just a gentle glazing on top. He's take different actions in winter based on that.
But there are pro's and resources s/he can can use to negotiate the mazes that are unfamiliar to most of us.
The cats (Score:5, Funny)
Some work in shifts. A few work in loincloths, but most wear the catsuits they were born with.
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Stay on-grid while generating power (Score:3, Informative)
Ownership isn't the issue. Kinda like it is criminal to drain wetlands, even if you own the property.
Check out Home Power magazine (Score:5, Informative)
Re:User/pass for Home Power's site (no!) (Score:5, Insightful)
Home Power is a very small grassroot-ish site. I've been dowloading their current issue for a couple of years now. A few months back they stopped just having a link to the issue on the front page and went to registration. The reason they need the registration is to prove how many unique visitors download and read the mag for their advertising rates on ads inside the magazine. If they can't prove their readership size, their ad rates fall. And they're not some big megacorp, they're already on a shoe-string budget. If you want to read it, sign up. They've never abused my info, and the magazine is awesome for the depth of info provided.
Motivational Speaker? (Score:5, Funny)
Township Approval (Score:5, Informative)
You'll need township approval before even thinking of constructing something that could possibly damn or slow down the flow of water.
John Ashcroft (Score:3, Insightful)
[MESSAGE CENSORED FOR YOUR PROTECTION]
Maybe where you live.. (Score:3, Informative)
Common sense, fairness, and respect go a long way in the country. That's why it rules so fucking much!
Re:Township Approval (Score:5, Funny)
Crap. Better rethink my plans to build a Church of Satan on the bank of the Animas River (in my backyard). The people of Durango might not be too happy that their river has been condemned to eternal damnation, especially since "animas" is Spanish for "soul".
Re:Township Approval (Score:5, Informative)
Heh. The susquehanna is the 16th largest river in the united states, not some backyard trickle. It's a navigable river and a major feeder for the chesapeake bay, which falls under federal authority as well as state and regional environmental regulations. Sticking a dam on it is something I'd probably ask a lawyer about first thing.
Re:Township Approval (Score:5, Insightful)
The state environmental regulatory groups (EPA EPD DEP, whatever) monitor this crap because whenever you take energy from a river system you cause an increase in things like sedimentation--in addition to whatever kind of pollution your system leaks into the water.
Big power companies get away with it because, well, because they're big power companies, but it's very possible that you'll have to pay some liscensing fees and/or get some kind of water permit/pollution fees.
Re:Township Approval (Score:3, Interesting)
With attitudes like this, we would have waited for the proper government bureau approval before dumping the tea in the harbor.
What ever happened to good old American rule breaking?
Re:Township Approval (Score:3, Funny)
You mean besides the DMCA and the Patriot Act?
Old Fashion Rule breaking = Jail Time (Score:4, Interesting)
My neighbor wanted to take down his tree. It was 150 feet tall. The city only allows licensed tree cutters, which wanted in excess of 500$ to do so.
So... we took it down. Six guys and a 1987 GM pickup truck.
Mind you it took 5 hours, and had I not removed the gutters from my roof to work on the soffits, the top of the tree would have removed them for me (and probably much faster with less trepidation).
So the city makes a drive by midweek... and he gets a phone call and a citation for a whopping fine for not having used a licensed tree removal service. Convincing them that 6 guys and a pickup truck actually did the work took some time, but eventually he won.
He was then cited for not having replanted a tree within 10 feet of the road within 1 week (another ordinance) and fined 150$.
Face it- the government can and will spank you if someone gets their panties in a big of enough twist.
Dear Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Dear Slashdot (Score:3, Troll)
High torque (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:High torque (Score:5, Informative)
A big wheel could run afoul of your winter time ice floes...A nice sized chunk of ice could wreck your system.
A full underwater system (i.e turbines) would look better, and would probably be safe from ice. Turbines are much more expensive though.
Re:High torque (Score:5, Funny)
Sheesh.
Wind Power! (Score:3, Funny)
I don't think tidal power would work unless the river level fluctuates daily (tidal generators produce power only during a level change).
My suggestion: forget hydro power, and build a windmill!
Re:Wind Power! (Score:2)
You can also extract *kinetic* energy of the water in undershot water mills.
does this remove energy from the current? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:does this remove energy from the current? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:does this remove energy from the current? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:does this remove energy from the current? (Score:5, Informative)
p.s. it wouldn't notice anyway since they just store the water in the dam and let it free fall on their turbine from there. so your plant will make the water take longer to reach downstream but it'll have just as much energy once there.
Re:does this remove energy from the current? (Score:3, Informative)
Undershot waterwheels use primarily the kinetic energy of the water (the situation you depicted above).
Overshot waterwheels use mainly the difference in potential energy. This is (in essence) the technology which is used in all the big dams and you can draw a lot more energy from that. But you have all the consequences - you have to create a pond, build the dam etc.
Re:does this remove energy from the current? (Score:5, Interesting)
yes, but just momentarily
Huh? Let's not forget the law of conservation of energy. Of course a waterwheel/generator takes energy from the river as it puts out electrical energy. There is nothing "momentary" about it.
But this energy is otherwise "lost" to heat as the water flows downstream anyway. IIRC it was Joule [hometrainingtools.com] (whose energy scale we use today) that originally did the science on waterfalls, showing the water temerature at the bottom of the falls is higher than at the top. As water flows downhill, it pummels into itself, and the gravitation potenital energy is converted to heat.
A waterwheel simply takes some of this energy and converts it to rotation instead of heat. With a waterwheel in place, the temperature of the water will be ever-so-slightly cooler downstream.
The downstream reservoir has a level, and it is the difference between this elevation and the tailrace (water exit) elevation that determines the amount of energy the hydro plant can extract. The difference is called "head" (I kid you not).
So the energy of the water used by a waterwheel is not "stolen" from the downstream plant... because it would have already been "lost" to heat as it reached the reservoir anyway.
Re:does this remove energy from the current? (Score:5, Informative)
The Sun's energy was used to evaporate the water, which carried it up into the atmosphere, and then it rained down over high altitude. Water at altitude has potential energy, equal to g times the height times the mass - this is the energy that is used for hydroelectric power.
The dam uses the potential energy difference between the water at the top of the dam, and the water at a bottom of the dam. Nothing more. When water is released at the top, this potential energy turns into kinetic energy, which is used to run generators.
Where there is NOT a dam, this potential energy is used to accelerate the water (which is why rapids move fast, while dammed rivers don't!)
So as long as the guy's private energy generation doesn't sink the water level behind the large dam (pretty unlikely) he isn't taking any of the energy that the hydroelectric plant uses. He is simply slowing the flow of water in his section of the river marginally.
Finally "Where does gravity get its power?" Power is energy per second, and since gravity doesn't have any energy as such, nor does it have power. Gravity is simply a force, and by counteracting this force we can store potential energy, but that is exactly the same energy that comes back. Remember that current theory is that all matter started at the same point, so any energy that is created by objects in the universe falling towards one another is really just the return of the energy once used to pull them apart. If you are asking where the gravity get its force, well, that is a deeper question for which we would have to leave 7th grade physics.
hydroelectric power (Score:3, Interesting)
Wind Power (Score:3, Interesting)
Water wheel at mill stream (Score:2)
An undershot wheel, where the water goes under the wheel would work, if you can force the water under, and not around it.
From there, simple gearing will give you what ever speed you need.
Why not just.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why not just.... (Score:3, Funny)
Do Some Homework (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Do Some Homework (Score:3, Informative)
Govt Regulations (Score:3, Informative)
Height differential? (Score:3, Insightful)
Permits? (Score:5, Interesting)
Years ago my family spent a few years trying to get a 30' fix pier (that others on our street could use for free) built by our property. Between the hassles of the town, state and MEPA we gave up. Strangely a few years later a neighbor (and state senator) who opposed to our project build his own from our prints 100' away. I guess we didn't grease the right gears.
My advice, make it small, discrete, quite and easily removable. Be forward that running your own generator over a long period is probable cause for the DEA to search your house as a suspected grow-op. It sounds crazy but again it's all about politics.
Bonne Chance.
I forget the name of it now.... (Score:5, Informative)
found it
http://www.salt-systems.com/marine-wind.htm
with that said, unless a stream goes entirely through your property, ie you can control both sides of the bank and build a proper dam etc, which is a ton of hassle and permits and whatnot usually, I would recommend doing the normal tried and true approach of wind/solar/fuel genny hybrid as an adjunct to your grid power. Re arrange where you put your money into first which of the first two works better for your locale. You usually want all four for true backup solution in most places. that is a generalization, but mostly true. It's really a variable, it has to be customized to your location and needs. Site survey maps exist on the web that will show mean average sun shiney hours and mean average winds for your area that will help you make a determination of which method gets priority. the reason why the "hybrid" approach is so good is that usually most places in the US get a lot of wind in the winter, but less wind but more sun in the summer. but that just depends, some places it's so windy all the time wind alone with the fuel genny backup is good, other places solar is better,etc--just depends..
me = grid, some solar, backup aero-marine wind genny, two fuel gennys
good luck! Once you get your rig up and working, you'll ask yourself "why the heck didn't I do this years ago?" It's really comforting knowing you always have SOME power no matter what, and even better to OWN it.
how do you sync to the grid? (Score:2)
what about a fish-like device (Score:2)
I'm surprised nobody suggested this (Score:3, Funny)
well here goes -- move
Is your land hilly? (Score:2, Interesting)
And for many here, the ram does not use electricity.
submerible generator (Score:5, Informative)
Real Goods catalog sells a generator that looks like a boat trolling motor or a minisub thruster, only with a bigger propeller. You anchor it in the river, and it uses the large volume of water flowing past it. I believe the river still needs to be moving at several feet per second, and has to be at least 2 feet deep- we're not talking mountain stream here. Needs to be a -river-.
The other way is to lay pipe along the river for quite some distance, to as low a point as possible. You need quite a bit of "head"(vertical delta) or a lot of waterflow; Real Goods' other generator system uses a turbine, with a customizable configuration of nozzles.
As for selling electricity back to the grid (aka intertie systems)- you can't always do that(ie, "sell" the electricity back), and even if you can, there are often limits on how much electricity can be generated. The power companies also get pretty pissy about people powering the grid, because if there's an outage, and a lineman goes to work on the lines he thinks are dead...well...fried lineman. Most inverters these days designed for intertie(which is what we're talking about) have safety features to prevent it from powering a grid by itself, but power companies still like to make excuses and may demand one of their engineers check out the system(at your cost of course).
here is the link (Score:5, Informative)
Re:here is the link (Score:3, Insightful)
In a 9 mph stream (slow jog) the Jack Rabbit produces about 2,400 watt-hours daily
So, at 2.4 kilowatt-hours a day, at a cost of $0.08 (say) a kilowatt-hour, you would save over 19 cents a day on electricity, or enough to pay off the generator in 17.1 years.
You're probably better off sinking the money into more efficient light bulbs or refrigerators.
Getting energy from the river. Some ideas (Score:5, Funny)
Sneak out and clamp 12 to 120 volt convertors on passing motorboats, with wires going back to your house. The wires had better be long
Stand on the shore with a big shotgun, and demand that passersby pay you a toll in killowatt hours in order to pass.
Provide all the catfish with treadmills connected to generators.
Per Max Screck [imdb.com] of Batman 2, set up your own power plant and connect to the nearby hydro plants. Provide a lot of paperwork that no one reads, that includes the part that says that your power plant actually drains power from the grid instead of adding to it.
Power hot air turbines from meetings of the Susquehanna River Basin Commission. [srbc.net]
If all else fails, I'm sure that the orgone writings of Reich, the magic energy fields of Tesla, or the spoonbending force of Uri Gellar will give you an answer.
Is there an elevation change involved? (Score:4, Informative)
Start with conservation (Score:5, Informative)
Check out real goods [realgoods.com] and other suppliers. Good lighting, gas-powered hot water heaters, fridges and cooking... there are lots of nice appliances that can reduce your reliance on electricity.
As for generation- keep your options open. It may not be legal for you to install a micro-hydro generator, and solar or wind might be cheaper.
My father had a book on this stuff (Score:5, Informative)
However, there would be many potential problems, especially the difficulty and cost of fixing a large overhung wheel with an asymmetric load over a river with fluctuating height (the wheel axis is going to need to rise and fall) and the regulatory problems: I guess you would need a license and it might be hard to obtain.
Another solution might be a hydraulic ram. There is the remains of one near where I live, that could raise water nearly 200ft. without an external power source, and was very simple and reliable. I guess some sort of license would be needed, but they are unobtrusive- there is nothing to see above water level but the exit pipe and the compression tank. Once the water is in a storage tank at high level, it can power a conventional turbine or an overshot wheel (more efficient than undershot), and the output can be adjusted to give fairly constant generator rpm regardless of load. Hydraulic rams can be noisy.
However, I wouldn't recommend going down either of these routes unless you are a qualified mechanical or civil (structural) engineer or both, and have good contacts in other disciplines.
The smallest hydro generator I have seen working, by the way, is at the end of the River Lyn in England. It's way bigger than you are likely to want ( I think I recall it's about 100KW) but when I was there in the early 90s it was still working. It attracts a lot of visitors from the US, and the whole place (including the water powered gravity railway) is a wonderful example of English quaintness.
check your regs first... (Score:5, Informative)
First, Federal. The Corps of Engineers handles 404 permits. You need this to discharge dredged or fill material into waters of the United States - fill material includes structures as well. You might be exempt (usually if you affect under 1/10 acre you will be), but you need to make sure. If you are going to affect any Federal Endangered/Threatened species (are any in/near the river?) you will need clearance through the US Fish and Wildlife Department and or National Marine Fisheries Service. This is usually coordinated through the Section 7 process of your 404 permit, but if you DON'T qualify for a 404 permit and there are endangered species, you have to do your own Habitat Conservation Plan and prepare a document under the National Environmental Quality Act (NEPA).
Second, State. The Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission regulates fish movements. "No dams, ponds, or other devices which prevent free migration of fish shall be erected or placed by a person licensed to propagate and sell fish in a stream flowing over the person's property".
I am sure you also have some type of dam safety office as well, if you go that route. Also, I don't know how water rights work in your state, but you need to check into that as well. You also might have a state version of NEPA (many states do).
Third, local. Check your local Planning department for applicable rules and regs.
Re:check your regs first... (Score:3, Funny)
Off Grid Living (Score:5, Informative)
I would say that solar or wind power is more feasible for most people. Solar is cheap in maintenance costs but expensive to set up, and you really need a lot of panel area to hope to supply your needs. Wind power is cheaper up front, but more maintenance is required because of moving parts, and noise from the rotors can be annoying.
Either solution will require a battery bank to store power to use when the plant is not producing, plus a good inverter to supply consistent 120v 60Hz power. If all you are looking for is protection from outages, the battery bank with a generator may be ideal from a cost/benefit perspective. The payback time of most alternative energy projects is in excess of 50 years, so think carefully before you invest.
"minicentrale" or floating zero-head generator (Score:5, Informative)
There is a company in britaing that specializes in this kind of generator - one application that it lends itself to is water pumping from bodies that have a deep draft and a large amount of excess flow.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thropton
I know that these are available from other places as well, and I'd be surprised if you couldn't make something like this yourself if you have a little motivation...
DEP Regulations (Score:5, Informative)
a) Dam Permit - application fee of $1500-$3000
b) Environmental Assessment Approval - free
c) Limited Power Permit for Hydroelectric - $5 application fee and $10-10000 annual fee (depending on capacity)
Not to mention any local or federal regulations (did you check the EPA yet?) or the permits you'll need for construction, etc.
There's also a 30-day public comment period before the DEP rules, and they estimate it will take 220 days or so to complete the paperwork.
Reference is from the massive PDF found at Department of Enviromental Protection [state.pa.us]
In short, you probably don't want to build a dam.
Not feasible. (Score:3, Insightful)
Since you said you are in the middle of nowhere I'll assume you are closer to NY than MD. Not that it matters, I'm just trying to think of a place that is in the middle of nowhere on the Susquehanna.
Grain Mills (Score:3, Interesting)
Easy Method (Score:3, Informative)
Build a floating dock. Very common for people living on the river. Make it as wide as you can manage without drawing attention. Eight feet would be good. If you have a lot of river frontage, you could even build two or three docks. The velocity is low, so you need to capture a lot of mass. This is kinetic energy, proportional to the mass and the square of the velocity.
Put a paddlewheel across the downstream width of the dock, maybe five feet in diameter, with two feet submerged. Nothing high tech is required. This doesn't need the optimal vane shape of a high pressure hydroelectric turbine. I'd use a shape that sheds debris to minimize maintenance.
Use a large belt around the outer diameter of the paddlewheel to drive an automotive alternator (very large gear ratio) with an external voltage regulator. This will cost about $20 at a scrap yard. Adjust the voltage regulator to produce 14V at the batteries to null the loss in the long wires, which should be at least 10 AWG. Use a circuit breaker at the batteries and the alternator. A charge controller will prevent overcharging if the regulator fails.
Charge a parallel bank of 12 V deep cycle discharge batteries, as used in golf carts, small boats or RVs. These are available for a decent price locally. Sealed batteries are good. Low maintenance, and no worry about explosive hydrogen offgassing. Keep the batteries warm, but vented to the outside air.
Use a power inverter to create 120 VAC. You can buy one that syncs to the power grid if you you want to sell power back to the utility, but I wouldn't bother. I'd cut the cord completely. You can buy inverters on eBay. Trace makes good inverters.
An alarm should monitor battery voltage and possibly charge rate. If river debris jammed the paddlewheel, you'd want to know sooner rather than later. A true geek would have it email if there was a problem.
I'd build a big cover over the paddlewheel assembly and maybe make it look like a barbeque grill or storage locker. I wouldn't go out of my way to inquire with the authorities. Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. "Gee, I didn't know I couldn't generate my own power."
You'll be surprised by how much energy you get from a small & slow moving paddlewheel. Unlike sun or wind, water power is 24/7, so your battery bank can be a lot smaller with a hydro power system. For about $500 initially and battery replacements and alternator brushes every few years, you can be off the grid. Most of us don't have a river and need to use solar.
Verdant Power Turbines (Score:5, Informative)
In the east channel of the East River, next to Roosevelt Island and in the shadow of the largest power plant in NY State, Verdant Power [verdantpower.com] has been deploying a small farm of low speed turbines to tap the force of the tidal stream that flows back and forth in the channel.
In the scale you're interested in, a ten foot turbine can power 25 homes.
There is an article about it at the Roosevelt Island Wire website [nyc10044.com].
Hydro Radio (Score:3, Interesting)
- http://www.wjffradio.org/
for them to be able to render him any assistance or inspiration. WJFF is a public radio station that is run entirely off a hydro generator(water conditions permitting). It makes a nice little case study for those who say it can't be done, or for those who do not live in a state that has net metering laws, or one with intolerably cumbersome restrictions.Maybe a sling pump... (Score:3, Interesting)
The paddelwheel method is the way to go (Score:4, Interesting)
More than likely this would be an illegal to do and dangerous as well. A better way to go would be a diversion channel that diverts a small amount of water from the river. At the top of the project or head would be a simple weir or gate to control the flow of water during the changing levels of the river. Depending on the amount of drop between the head and the wheel might give you higher speeds than the river itself could create. After the wheel you simply channel the water back to the river. The channeling back may be the hardest part of the project. As changing river levels might be harder to control and water may back up into the system. It depends on your situation. You may be able to gain a little elevation by using a shallower slope than the river has. Water needs at least a
In any case, you would need to survey the job and use an optical level or a laser level to determine the drop between where you pull the water out and where you put it back in. This could be a costly project depending of the generating needs and your state laws, county laws..etc. But the way stated above is probably the only way to do it legally.
Jackrabbit submersable generator. (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/product.cfm?dp =1200&sd=1201&ts=1017104
They sell a product called the Jackrabbit. Orginally it was used for oil survey sleds that were towed. This way you could mount them without having to build anything elaborate to change the water flow. This should work nicely for what you are wanting.
Don't miss work done in India on this (Score:3, Interesting)
interesting hits on this topic. NOTE: Hydel is
the Indian-English term for Hydro power.
When I was working at IIT Delhi I interviewed
a young woman who had just completed a research
assistantship during which she and her professor
developed a generating unit that would fit your
requirements. They used a type of rotary pump
that is mass-produced cheaply in India (used it in
reverse of course), and they got good results.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to hire the young
woman, and I don't have any references for you.
Look to Marine Technologies (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know what the average flow of the Susquehanna is but I doubt it's really a slow river. I do know the Mississippi is typically moving about 4 knots and it is considered by boatmen to be an absolute bear to travel upstream. Recreational boating in the main Mississippi channel is near zero because the current's just too strong. I'm betting your river is faster.
A sailboat (monohull recreational boat big enough to have a galley) is making fair time if he averages six knots. Six knots is enough to generate a helluva lot of electricity using a water generator (they call them "spinners" and some of them will convert to wind generators if you get the urge). These things are not even that expensive.
Contrary to some of the alarmist nonsense being posted here, as long as you are not messing around in a wetland (swampy, boggy marshy place) and you don't propose to do any dredging, the Corps of Engineers presumes that all docks and piers for small boats will be approved for riparian use on ALL navigable waterways as long as you don't interfere with navigation. Possibly you have stronger local regulations, but get your COE permit and I think everything else will fall into place pretty easily. Sink a couple pilings, hang the spinners deep enough to keep from freezing and I expect you're in business.
Re: High volume, low speed (Score:3, Interesting)
You're not in the middle of nowhere... (Score:4, Informative)
You're in either Pennsylvania or New York. And you're on a river that has been actively dammed and controlled for over two hundred years. Which means that your property either has deeded mill rights, or it doesn't. And if it doesn't, you have no legal right to divert the water in the river to power a generator. Which is to say, attempting to divert river flow to generate electricity could get you in a world of trouble.
What about in-river systems?
Good question--and I'm sure that your state environmental agency will tell you. And I'd bet money their first answer will be "no." Bureaucrats are bureaucrats--and anything that is likely to cause them additional work is almost certain to be turned down.
This doesn't mean you're dead
What you can do to help grease the skids with your state authorities is to contact your local state legislator. If you're in Pennsylvania you'll find that a lot of legislators are extremely interested in "constituent service." Call the legislator's district office, and explain where you live (make sure you live in that legislator's district) and what you're trying to do. You want to know if the state has any information on the subject, and how you can go about finding out. You will be talking to an intern--a breathless, endlessly enthusiastic young person who is just itching to find answers. You may find it astonishing how quickly you will get answers--and since the question came from Rep. Stuffedshirt's office, the answer is far more likely to be "yes."
Visit the county courthouse
If your property at the river's edge shows any kind of swale or evidence of an old channel, go to your county courthouse and ask for the Recorder of Deeds office. Ask for help in searching for mill rights--and whether or not your property ever had mill rights assigned, or was subdivided from property that had mill rights. If the answer is yes, you should ask your county bar association for a referral to an attorney with experience in real estate law--what you're looking to do is assert that you want to take advantage of mill rights that were deeded with the property years ago.
On the off chance that mill rights were awarded to your property years ago, you may be able to do this. In the more likely event that you do not already have mill rights, you'll have to do some design work, get a registered professional civil engineer, and go through a planning process that will include the state environment regulators, the utility company that owns the hydro dam downstream (most likely PP&L), and probably the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. And unless you have a very long stretch of shoreline, you'll have to get permission from your neighbors to dig a mill race upstream, and a tail race downstream. (This, of course, means that you'll be providing them with free electricity too.)
But what about a floating generator in midstream?
If you're in Pennsylvania, good luck. The Susquehanna is full of boaters and fishermen, and the state is going to regulate you to death with concerns about who might hit it, how you'll secure it during the winter, and whether you have adequate insurance coverage for any possible liability.
In short--I think you'll find that the licensing, permitting, and assorted legal folderol will make the project economically infeasible.
Personal hydroelectric power (Score:4, Interesting)
Jack Rabbit Submersible Hydro Generator
No Pipes or Dams! Power from any Fast-Running Stream or Tidal Flow!
The Jack Rabbit is a special low-speed alternator mounted in a heavy-duty, oil-filled, cast aluminum housing with triple shaft seals. Orginally designed for towing behind seismic sleds for oil exploration, this marine-duty unit is ideal for home power generation near a reasonably fast-moving stream. In a 9 mph stream (slow jog) the Jack Rabbit produces about 2,400 watt-hours daily. Ina 6 mph stream (brisk walk) it produces over 1,500 watt-hours. The 12.5" propeller requires 13" of water depth. A rock or timber venturi can often be constructed to increase stream speed and power output.
Re:No, of course not (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Legal ? (Score:4, Insightful)
On the positive side, if everyone by a river did build one of these things, there would be less need for coal powerplants - THOSE are destructive to the environment.
It probably isn't legal. (Score:4, Informative)
LOL, it might help if you had some idea what you were talking about. The Sesquehanna is a navigable waterway, and 33 USC 403 [cornell.edu] seems to be of the opinion that you need the permission of the federal government to construct anything, such as the poster's waterwheel, which would obstruct that waterway.
Legalities of the Susquehanna (Score:4, Informative)