Reasonable Salary for Entry Level Programmers?

An anonymous reader asks: "I will be graduating from college in May with a degree in computer science. I have begun the job search and gone on a few interviews. So far I have gotten two job offers which I am thankful for, but the salary seems low. I am not saying that I am too good to pay my dues and work my way up, but I could make more waiting tables. It is somewhat distressing that I have spent 4 years of college and years before that developing my programming skills. I am not trying to get rich, but I was hoping that the high level of skill required would account for something(no offense intended to waiters). Can anyone give me any insight about what a reasonable starting salary would be, for an entry level software engineer?"

ask for a lot

[JimmytheGeek]

you have to make all your money before the job is outsourced.

Pay Rates

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about your value in the long term not the short term. In the short term, everyone will have to train you and teach you real life things, as an advance on what you learnt in college. If you want to be fussy, at least be fussy about the industry you want to work in, not the money you want to earn (to start with anyway).

Tough to say... but it aint what it used to be

[jrj102]

It's tough to say. My first programming gig was more than a decade ago working on the campus while I was going to school... I made just over minimum wage (which, at the time, was around 4.25/hr.) However, within my first year as a professional developer I was earning well into the 60K/year range. During the dot-com boom, wages went insane--I was no longer a junior programmer by that time, but I hired and managed several. There were guys (and a couple women) on my teams fresh out of college--some hadn't even finished their degrees--that were making in excess of 100K per year. (I should note that I live in Seattle, which is a fairly high-dollar market.)

Things have toned down quite a bit--mostly as a result of the dot-crash and Indian outsourcing. I've been able to hire smart junior developers with a year or two of post-college experience for $20/hr or around 40K a year. And at that rate I am considered to be paying pretty well. Many of them left jobs where they were making as little as 35K a year. I should also mention that many hiring managers (myself included) are trepidatious about hiring people streight out of college with zero real world experience... this may limit the numbers on your first gig.

The middle of the market is pretty low right now as well--it used to be that a solid software engineer with 5-10 years of good experience made 150-200K a year, but that's no longer the case, with these folks settling in the 80K/year range.

The top of the market, however, hasn't been impacted as much. The sky is still the limit for a really good developer. The reason, of course is that smart managers know that one EXCELLENT developer can produce more per week than ten GOOD developers. (yes, really.) It's fairly easy for someone who views crafting a good algorithm in much the same way as a poet turning a phrase--who understands the nuances of data structures and algorithms AS WELL AS how to put that knowledge to work in the real world, and can work effectively on a team as the architect of a midsize-to-large project (say 150-250 thousand lines of code, not that LOC is a good measure) to make a quarter to a half million a year in total compensation. However, for every one of these there is 1000 that will never get to this level.

I suggest taking a real mental inventory of your skills and your drive--if you think you can be one of the best this is still a great industry. Otherwise it's fun and you can earn a good living, but you won't make money hand-over-fist like you did in the late 90's. My experience is that the vast majority of developers in their first 5 years or so of their career vastly over-estimate their abilities. It takes time to hone this particular craft... be patient. One way to accelerate the process is to read everything you can get your hands on, and not just language books. At the very least, pick up the Pragmatic Programmer [amazon.com], and you should also read Writing Solid Code [amazon.com], Rapid Development [amazon.com], Code Complete [amazon.com], and other great books. Reaching the top of the market in terms of salary is about more than writing code--it's about understanding the software development lifecycle, how to run a project, and how to work with people. Also, learning to understand requirements gathering will give you a leg up.

--- JRJ

it goes up

[Gyorg_Lavode]

the difference between waiting tables and going to college is that when you go to college, your pay goes up. I started w/ the government at 38k in DC. In a year it'll be closer to 50 likely, and I'll cap out around 115-150 if I stay through my career.

Here comes one helluva flamewar...

[hendridm]

First you need to go to Salary.com and look up your desired position in your area - then subtract about 30%. Then, if you don't already, you need to realize that since the market is saturated, it's not really a high level skill (obviously, since apparently a lot of people can do it). The job market, especially in IT, is terrible. You just have to take Joe jobs until you find a decent one, hoping you can work at something relevant and in your field along the way.

Yes, it's depressing. It's depressing for all of us, but as long as an Indian will do it for chicken scratch, you're SOL unless you're a phenomenal salesman or work your ASS off like the rest of us trying to be really good at something (or grow some tits).

/bitter rant

Which part of the country will you be living in?

[boomgopher]

It makes big difference... I started a few years ago at 55K, and thought it was a ton of money until I started looking for a place to live. Paying half your take home pay only to live 50yards from the railroad tracks really sucks.

You seem to be a bit confused...

[.@.]

I was hoping that the high level of skill required would account for something

A college degree does not confer skill. Skill must be demonstrated before it can be rewarded.

Re:Likewise

[el-spectre]

I came out of school in 2000 (I heard the .com bubble go "pop" as I got my diploma), for 'bout 50k. Depends on your skillset and attitude.

Be aware that you'll do better (bosses who like you and your work give better raises) if, in addition to tech skills, you show critical thinking and responsibility.

Re:Likewise

[inKubus]

Yeah, that's about right. If you are a shitty programmer you'll end up making less. I don't think getting a job right out of college for a "demeaning" $25k is something anyone can complain about (give or take for metro area).

Once you get out there and network, another job will come your way. I have a friend who graduated with honors from a big name electrical engineering college (Rice) and he's 10 months out of school and working for $30K and happy.

It's tough out there. The solice of course is that if you're making 55k a year you're going to be doing $55k a year worth of work. Do you really want to jump headlong into 80 hours a week, on call, etc?

It's not 1994 anymore, you have to work for your money, even in the computing business...

Waiting tables...

[AdamTrace]

... is *hard* work.

The point is, take a job that will be more enjoyable to you, either in terms of work hours or exciting projects. That will make more difference, I think, in the long run, than salary.

Good luck.

Adam

You're worried?

[grahamlee]

You've been offered a job and you're worried about the pay? It's better to be worried about finding a job, which is the bit you've already achieved. America (and indeed Britain) is in that all-too-familiar position where the number of CS graduates outguns the number of CS vacancies, so you can't expect to be paid too much until your name is equated with redhotness. Worse still for CS grads (at least this is how it works in the UK) is that many employers in the IT sector don't want CS grads to fill their computing positions, they want mathematics, science or even classics grads who they see as having more problem solving skills. As one employer said to me when I was starting at University (physics, before you ask) it's easier to teach a thinker to program a computer than it is to teach a computer programmer to think.

So you start at the low end of the pay scale. That's not so bad. In a few years the waiter will still be earning the same salary when you're on a bit more.

Why should they?

[SillySnake]

How many people graduated with you? How many other schools graduated as many, or more people at the same time? How many programming jobs do you think exist? Granted, this number is growing, but still. As an electrical engineering major, I can tell that at least half the people that graduate aren't worth having in a company. They just don't retain knowledge and apply it well. Why should a company assume you're worth more money? You're going to have to prove yourself to them. For all they know, you're the guy like my lab partner, who did no design on a major project, built none of it, and wrote 4 of a final report when I asked him to write six. Of his four pages, I totally rewrote one, made him rewrite one, and had to correct all his others. One of the mechanical engineers that I work with has a resume that would impress people at NASA and JPL, but in reality, he knows very little. Considering the number of graduates who know very little these days, I think you should be happy for a job. Besides, you ought to take one based on what you'll be doing, not so much how much money you'll make. With a CS degree, those dreams of high salaries you had going into college faded while you were there. Work your way, and be happy with it.

It's impossible to answer this

[tverbeek]

It's impossible to answer this without taking into account what part of the country (and which country) you're in, what kind of metro area the company is in, what industry you're going to be working for (aerospace, education, health care, textiles, etc.) My salaries have been so far below the low end of what national surveys report, that I used to laugh/cry whenever I looked at one. I actually made more per hour delivering newspapers (an easy route in my neighborhood) than I did in my day job as a network administrator. But that's because I've been working in academia and non-profits in inexpensive parts of the Midwest. Your mileage will vary.

Well, it depends on a few things

[Sycraft-fu]

1) Where are the offers, and more specifically what is the cost of living there? I would expect a job to pay around 1.5-2x as much in the Bay Area as in Tucson for the simle reason you'll need the extra money to have the same quality of life. Consider what it costs to get a house, go out to eat, etc where the job is. If it's cheap, don't expect to make as much. I mean in Tucson, you can get a 2000 square foot house for under $150k which works out to payments of under $1000/month. It's hard to impossible to get even a studio apartment in some cities for that price.

2) What will the workload be like? If this is a company that believes in supporting it's employee, a 40 hour work week, and low stress, that is a factor. Don't sell yourself short on quality of life, but realise that less work makes you less valuable and thus will pay less.

3) Benefits. Look at what the company offers you in other benefits, those all factor in too. If they pay your health insurance for you, that's something to factor in, it's not cheap. Same with other kinds of insurance. Make sure you are comparing the total amount you are compansated (as in how much they pay you and how much you'd have to pay for the benefits if they didn't) not just the amount you take home.

4) Vacation. What's their policy on that? If the company offers good amounts of off time, that's something that's nice. Also generally reduces your pay though.

5) Public or private? If you work a government job, it'll generally pay less than the private sector. The compensation is that most tend to have excellent benefits, plenty of vacation time, and little to no overtime.

So look at the area you'd be living in, what kind of buying power you'd have with your paycheck, and what they offer in additonal benefits that you'd need to purchase yourself if they didn't. Then decide if what they are offering you is reasonable.

Also consider what kind of learning experience it will be, what kind of industry connections it will give you, and what kind of advancement oppertunities you'll have. If a job pays less, but puts you in the position to advance quickly and to a high level, while learning valuable skills, it's probably worth it.

So don't sell yourself short, but don't get caught up in the dollar amount you take home.

Re:Likewise

[Will2k_is_here]

If you are a shitty programmer you'll end up making less

What kind of sense is that? More like, if you're a shitty programmer, you'll end up without a job.

don't forget your own ideas

[circletimessquare]

while it seems like the dotcom craze is over, we are really still at the dawn of what the internet and personal computers can do... it will be decades before this tech has realized it's full potential and the arc of innovation wanes and computers/ internet become just another commodity like the cotton gin or the radio

therefore, within the span of your lifetime, there is much impact you can make on this world, personally, and of course, financially

so after you come home from your thankless soul-sucking underpaid 9-5 existence, don't forget to tinker with the very sparks of imagination which got you interested in computers in the first place

someone reading slashdot right now, either you, me, or someone else, will probably be making a contribution to mankind in the field of computer science which will forever alter humanity, and perhaps make that person fabulously rich... but that's an afterthought

your prime motivation should be happiness, not money

no six figure slary is worth self-hatred

don't give up on any of the things that got you interested in computers in the first place just because you can't seem to find your happiness in a cubicle

you will never be happy working for someone else, you will only be happy pursuing your own interests

so think of your job as something to keep your brain cells well-exercised, and something that keeps food in the refridgerator, and therefore you won't look to your salary as some end-all justification for your existence

your job will forever be little more than just a means to an ends, unless you yourself are deadset on making your life little more than what your employer decides you are worth, and that would be a sad day indeed

Re:Welcome to the real world there son

[jfdawes]

If you're going to go by the entry requirements for H1-B visas, A bachelor's degree is worth about 8 years experience. (degree + 2 years or 10 years required).

From personal experience, there are a lot of people in the industry (Generally with degrees in something that isn't CS/IT) that do not know things after 8 years that get taught in the first year of a CS/IT degree.

Then again, there's an awful lot of college graduates with CS/IT degrees that have got no clue what you really need to do to build a software application in the real world.

Re:Welcome to the real world there son

[Killswitch1968]

I know this was meant to be a joke but it really is a problem with a lot of school programs. The curriculums aren't as tough as they should be, and Universities start becoming degree-mills. It's at least part of the reason why degrees have become so devalued.

More than salaray to consider

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming you are single, and just out of collge, and still willing to share an apartment to keep costs down, take any job offering $30k or more, AND is something you are interested in or could see a future in. In other words don't get hung up on salary alone, but consider what you want to do with your career and what you want to do. If you don't know exactly what you want to do with your skills, consider jobs that might offer a variety of opportunity. Remember, like any job, there will be pluses and minuses and you might have to reall look to see what the opportunities are.

As for the money, remember the dot com days are over, and paying your bills while getting your career going is not a bad way to start in the "real world".

Re:Likewise

[prell]

It depends greatly on where you work. A salary of $45K in Wyoming is a lot different than a salary of $45K in San Francisco and New York City.

I spent months looking for job, and finally got one as the sole software developer and designer for a collections company for $32K a year with good benefits in Minnesota. I'm definitely looking to move up significantly within a year or two, but $32K a month is enough to have a nice car and a nice place in the city and still have ~45% of my income left over.

Doing what you want is incomparably fulfilling, but you have to set a breaking point, even in tumultuous times like these.

Think of the Future - Raises

[yintercept]

do you really want to jump headlong into 80 hours a week, on call, etc?

They can suck you into the 80 hour week at any salary. Likewise, many $50k plus people are adept at avoiding the 80 hour work week. You only get 45 hours of work done in an 80 hour week anyway.

I really would be looking more at the company and projects than the salary. If the company is full of people making good money, then you will likely get good raises.

Employers look for progression in your salary. Going in low and getting a good raise in the first year can really jump start a resume. Leaving without a good raise makes you look bad.

So, if it looks like a company pays well, then going in low is a wise choice.

A story about a friend

[Toxygen]

A friend of mine finished his 4 year computer science course here at the University of New Brunswick in 2003, and after sending out resumes all summer long, finally settled on the best offer he got that didn't require him to move an unreasonable distance (for him). He landed a job at a company in Quebec City, about 6 hours away. The job he took had him building webpages, and they were paying him 8$ an hour to do it. That's canadian, remember. It was the most attractive option available to him, unless he was willing to move to Vancouver for an extra 3$ (he wasn't).

It took me 2 years in a kitchen to work up to 8$, and that was 5 years ago. He was so embarrassed about his wage he wouldn't even tell me himself, and after 6 months on the job the company declared bankruptcy, stiffed him on his last 6 weeks of work, without giving him any kind of notice of what was happening beforehand. He still hasn't gotten paid for those 6 weeks yet, even after multiple court sessions.

I guess the point is, even though he wasn't raking in the dough, reliability in an employer should be at least as high on your priority list as a high salary. If a strong business is offering you a low wage and no one's putting up a better offer, take it. At the very least you'll get job experience until a better offer comes along, and that's something all those degree-holding waiters won't have.

Re:Likewise

[pizza_milkshake]

how is that not less?

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[DebianRcksLindowsLie]

Since you're not going to get much but "my job went to India" - I'd take a look and see what you NEED. Do you have a family? $40-45K would be good ($20-22.50 per hour), especially if your spouse works. Take the highest you can get. Resume' experience and skills pay off.

Experience/Domain Knowledge

[Lechter]

The thing that really most matters your experience and/or your domain knowledge. If nothing else "real world" experience implies that you're generally familiar with the tools used by development teams that you wouldn't necessarily have needed while you were in college - thinks like source control, and bug/change request systems that simply weren't important for the projects a lone student (or even a team of students) would have used. These tools and habits aren't necessarily difficult, but they do come with time.

Domain knowledge about general ins & outs, terminology, best practices etc. of an industry is also something that employers look for.

Keep in mind that unless you can prove you have either of these, perspective employers are looking at paying you and receiving limited returns whilst you acquire "on the job training".

PS. ...and no employers really don't value "keeping abreast of industry trends" (reading /., the Reg, &c)

Salary isn't your primary concern

[Embedded Geek]

With your first job, you should be more concerned about the opportunities you will be exposed to, especially with the job market tightening due to outsourcing. You will need to prove your chops really quickly in this business in order to survive your first layoff (which may be around the corner). I'm sure you've probably already catagorized one of your offers as "this is more interesting technology," but that shouldn't be the only non-salary consideration. Will you be exposed to the whole development life cycle, or confinded to only doing test or only documentation? Which job has the better educational reimbursement for grad school (you should be registered for grad school already - take one easy class for a term but then dive right in. Disenrolling for even one semster makes it *so* hard to start again)? Will one of the positions get you a certification or security clearance that might be useful for future positions (remember: you can't outsource defense work)? How stable is each position? Some people like small startups because they give you an opportunity to grow, but this means nothing if they don't last long enough for you to learn anything!

In short, as long as the salary offer isn't an obvious attempt to screw you (look at both your offers and also ask classmates with offers from other companies and see if they're within, say, a 10% margin), you should be OK. Dive in on your first job, learn everything you can, get started on that graduate degree. In two years take a look around and see if your salary isn't up to par. Go to your manager, make a case on all the fine work you've done, and see what they can do. If you get no action by the tiem you get the graduate degree, start shopping around.

my advice

[theMerovingian]

I've been out of school for 2 yrs, so some might disagree.....

Hold out for a job in an industry you want to be in. Pay is secondary unless you have kids and stuff - it's better to get your foot in the door somewhere that does interesting development on projects you want to work on.

If you take some job admin'ing windows boxes for the Arkansas Bureau of Indian Relations, it's easy to get pigeon-holed. Along comes a wifester, and suddenly its hard to uproot everything and take a risk with a cool startup or consulting firm.

My advice: don't worry about a few dollars, go out there and get the most interesting job you can, regardless of location. Go balls to the wall for a few years, learn your trade, and have a good time.

Interesting/hard jobs in technical fields generally pay good, but you will never be the best or make the best money unless you are excited and interested in getting out there and writing code.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:This Makes an 'Ask Slashdot'??

[aixou]

It's not so much the raw "how much" question itself that warrants the "Ask Slashdot", but the insightful responses that follow.

With good responses, you can get information about the industry from an employer's perspective, as well as from people who have weathered some serious storms. The numerical answer of "$45,000" or "$55,000" isn't nearly as valuable as the hows and whys that come after.

Re:Think of the Future - Raises

[MisanthropicProgram]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. In this day and age of offshoring, outsourcing, downsizing, and any other 'izing', you need to get everything you can up front.

I've been through too many instances were I was promised all these bonuses and raises only to have them disappear later due to "lack of money." - not because of my performance. I would get these wonderful reviews and then told, "It's too bad it's not in the budget because I'd give you a big raise. I can only afford 3%."
I would then quit. They were all pissed at me for quitting, but the old saying still holds true: "Money talks, Bullshit walks."

Re:HS Graduate

[Tackhead]

> I'm starting an entry level programming job at a local Uni for a little above minimum wage.

Considering that professors can often get grad students to work for free, it looks like someone in that university is pulling strings and doing one of their friends a favor by hiring you (a HS student) for pay. Take full advantage of the opportunity.

As for the original poster talking about entry level programming jobs: "Whatever the market will bear is fair".

Jobs are like relationships. It's always easier to get a new job offer when you've already got an existing job -- even a crappy one.

If you're working at Foocorp, a hiring manager at Barcorp knows you must be worth something (or Foocorp wouldn't have hired you) - and he also knows that you must be interested in Barcorp (because you've already got a job at Foocorp, so you're interviewing for reasons that go beyond "I'm unemployed and need food").

Same thing applies in relationships -- ChickFoo obviously digs your stuff, and that makes your stuff more interesting to ChickBar. (No, I'm not gonna let myself write that as "BarChick" :)

And of course

[xintegerx]

Only a non-educated boss like you would base his whole opinion on all college graduates based on one negative experience.

College isn't just about a degree, it is about overcoming challenges. You could take a full load every semester, for 40 years, and withdraw from every course. You would still be more open minded and enlightened, even if you learned nothing, than stopping education at 18.

Re:You seem to be a bit confused...

[rritterson]

skill is the application of knowledge. A degree is proof of knowledge, and thus proof of possibility of skill, which is much more certain than someone with no degree. Even so, I think you're just being flippant.

Of course, someone with 10 years of experience would have the most demostrated ability which is why those persons make the most money.

Re:Average range

[ryanhos]

Oh please. Unless you are Ivy League, nobody bumps your salary because you graduated from a certain college. IT Managers aren't THAT dumb anymore....quit fooling yourself.

I got $70k right out with a Masters

[Anonymous Coward]

There are good jobs out there, but you really do have look for them. I'm graduating with a Masters, and I have (thank God) a $70k job waiting for me.

But, I really had to dig to find it. My background is in Machine Learning/Datamining, and my general job search wasn't yielding results. So I went back and visited many of those machine learning community websites I frequented for my research, and applied to the jobs on the job sections of those sites. That was where I started getting interviews.

Now my job was originally for a PhD, but since my Masters experience closely tracked with what they wanted, they reduced the salary a little and gave me the job as a Masters.

My advisor said that the economy is bad, but no student of his has gone without a job for more than 6 months.

I guess my point is twofold:
1) You need to learn where and how to look effectively leveraging your background and skills
2) You need to specialize and gain knowledge of one area, in this current situation, a Jack of all trades can be outsourced, but a Master of one is still hard to find.

Re:3 minutes on google gives us...

[Moofie]

You're right. I think we should write to salary.com and have them stop offering their free service until they can provide the same free service for every person on Earth. That will, of course, require salary.com to buy a computer and internet connection for everybody on the planet.

Or, people who don't find the free service to be useful could go find a different service, and not make snide comments about how useful it is. After all, it's hard to imagine how it could be worth LESS than you paid for it.

Twit.

Re:in 1994

[Anonymous Coward]

1990 30k
1992 35k
1994 45k
1996 50k
1998 60k
2000 100k
2002 120k
2004 100k
all $US
BCSci, U of Mn IT, 1989 Summa Cum Laude w/H.D.

Re:Depends

[DarthTaco]

"Clearly spending 2 years more in school will boost my salary more than experience would have"

I can just about guarantee you that isn't the case. It certainly isn't where I work. You do get more credit for a master's, but it's equivalent to 2 years experience. And I know on my team I'd rather have the guy with two years experience than the freshout, master's or not.

But to tell you the truth, what I care about most is the attitude people have toward their job. I'll take someone who is enthusiastic but a little lacking in the IQ or experience department over a negative or arrogant engineer that is a little more gifted in IQ.

Extra schooling doesn't count toward much in my book... The problem I see with college classes is that they are too short. Then need to be a year long. 3 months isn't enough soak time to really learn anything.

Anyway, back on topic, I don't know what software engineers get paid. When I started school back in 92, software engineers were getting $20k, so i chose hardware engineering. They were getting something like $30 at the time. The relative rank flip flopped by the time I graduated... but I get the feeling hardware is a little ahead today. In my area, freshouts are getting around $50-$55k. To give an idea of the cost of living, if you spent half your take-home on your house, you could live on the golf course a few miles from the beach.

Re:Likewise

[EightBells]

While the salary is the most important part of an employment package, there's a lot more to a good job that just it's salary.

Just my $0.02, after 25+ years as a programmer: salary falls well below a number of other considerations.

- Do you actively enjoy going to work each day?
- Does your job consistently strech your technical capabilities?
- Are your daily workmates more technically savvy than you, and happy to "mentor" you?

Answer "yes" to these questions, and salary doesn't matter: not only will you be happy, but you'll find that your salary increases quite quickly all by itself.

RE: Rambling buffoon

[theLOUDroom]

And no, '4 years of college' doesnt prove you are worth anything. It proves you can learn, but not much more.

What an ignorant attitude!

If you manage to get two bachelor's degrees and a master's from a top-ten school in those four years it most defintely says something. (People acutally do it, but not me.)

I hate to break it to you but college IS work. Not all colleges are the same amount of work, but those kids at the top schools in their fields work HARD.

I wasn't handed my degree, I EARNED IT. I spent 4 years both competing with and working with students from all over the world and I worked HARD.

Getting a degree from a GOOD college shows not just that you're intelligent and can learn, but that you know how to work and stick with things.

Sure there are institutions out there who demand less of their students, but trivializing the importance of college is just plain foolish.
Do you think that faculty at any College is trying to turn out students who can learn and nothing else?
Do you actually think your workplace is somehow a more rigorous environment than say, MIT or Caltech?

Re:Salary Negotiation

[Anonymous Coward]

I recommend reading a book on negotiation. The one by Harvard Business Review is good. I also hear "Getting to yes" is good.

Some key points to should know:
1. Know your Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement (BATNA), for many people this is to not have a job at all which is the worst position to be in since you have no leverage. Buy improving your options, you have more leverage to negotiate a higher salary. Namely, you want to compare all your offers at once and play them off of each other.

2. Often the focus is on the money. In negotiation you can get the other side to concede things that are easy for them to give and of value to you. In salary negotiation, this might be more stock options, more vecation time, an office instead of a cubicle...

3. Advertise what makes you uniquely suited to fill the position. What is the special value above the other candidates? Your salary is basically defined by one thing: how replaceable you are.

There are tons of code monkeys out there (and in India), but suprisingly few of them are good at working in a team, which requires good communication, the ability to build trust, and even the ability to negotiate through business problems.

I could go on, but unfortunately I don't have all day to post to slashdot.

I will give you a couple other hints that might help you're chance; these are mostly pyschological tricks that marketers use to sell products (yes, you're selling yourself here):

1) Let potential employers know that there is competition by subtly letting them know that you've been to multiple interviews that have went well. People tend to place more value on things when there is competition for a scarce resource. (This is part of why it helps you to let them know you're combined skillset is not easy to find.)

2) Start with a higher salary (within reason) than you actually expect and then fall back to the salary you do want if they wont go for it. Best case they'll say yes to your initial offer.
People tend to view prices/salaries as more reasonable when contrasted by something larger. It may also help to say something like "My buddy at company X makes $Y+10k." Where Y is the salary you're hoping for.

Good luck!

Re:Likewise

[gid-goo]

On call for 55k? Working 80 hour weeks? There had better be fat bonuses in real live cash, comp time, good vacation time. I work 80+ hour weeks every once in a while (I'm a games programmer) and if it wasn't for the possibility of royalties and huge bonuses once a year I wouldn't be doing it. For 55k I'll walk in at 9 and be out of there at 6 (probably more like 10 and 7 actually).
gid-goo

Re:Likewise

[r_j_prahad]

I'll be graduating in May as well and the range Ive seen is 45k to 55k

I took early retirement last year, and that's all I was making then, after 30 years. If I had it to do all over again, I'd be an electrician, or a machinist, or a welder. Anything but a goddamned software slave. It wasn't worth it.

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[MrChuck]

Here's your win:
You have a job and no more homework or papers for school.

If you can pay rent with 1/4-1/3 of your monthly salary, eat and have fun, then seize it.

You're not getting married. If it TRULY sucks, you can leave. If you can make it a year first, great.

After that you have a track record that you can survive at a place for a year. (it's important, really).

You have something on your resume.

You get to see what work is like in the real world and what you like and don't like about this place.

A friend's dad was a job counselor. He helped his son and I go through some college selection things when we were 17. The stuff he used at work which was kinda cool. Make a list of your previous jobs.

• write down 10 (or so) things you liked.
  This can be challenging work; babes in the office; free pizza on fridays; working with project managers to learn how it all works, whatever.
• write down 10 things you DIDN'T like
• Take that last list and find the opposite
  "Micromanaging boss" might become "boss that lets me work on my own a bit"

Now, take the pluses and the opposite of minuses and choose 10 most important things and look around with that in mind.

I found my list from pre-college 10 years later. Where my college didn't match on that list was often where I was frustrated and annoyed. OTOH, there were things I just didn't know about and was wrong on. But it happens. And 12 of 15 things were just about right.

Learn to cook. Brown rice and beans will cost $2 and be 3 meals. Spices and garlic make it worth eating.

Learn to budget. You have $N. You can spend $F on food, $R on rent, $L on loan payback, $S on some savings. The rest is $Entertainment and fun.
Spend > $E, and you lose. Put it on Visa and you might as well surrender now.

You really don't need a new TV. You may need new clothes for work though. None of it is deductable.
Hell, burn the TV. It takes an IQ point away for every 100 hrs you watch.

Take time and save up and travel some. You're less encumbered and can have fun.

everything you do before you're 25 is overlooked in the job world
I spent 3 summers touring with bands building Rock and Roll stages. It was a blast; I made some cash; I didn't die (before I reach for that, did I clip in or not...). My crap was in storage and it had totally nothing to do with my "career." In the winter, I had some real jobs.

Re:Likewise

[Zeinfeld]

What kind of sense is that? More like, if you're a shitty programmer, you'll end up without a job." Unless of course you apply at Microsoft's security department...

Probably the hardest gig to get in the industry at this point - unless you are in the elite security architects world with a heavyweight reputation. Over the past few years they have been hiring the best out of AT&T Research, the remains of DEC, various IETF groups. I get called by their headhunters every few months but I have ten years experience in the field and I have written several well known specs.

The problem Microsoft face is similar to the cobol dusty decks problem. Its not the quality of the people working there now that has the biggest impact on overal security quality, its the people who worked there ten or fifteen years ago.

It is the same story for Linux. At the moment security is largely seen in terms of 'absence of known holes'. The main advantage Linux has here is less code means less bugs (often). But don't expect that to be the final word. We are moving to a world where positive security features like PKI built deep into the O/S are going to be needed. Microsoft is not completely there yet, but watch out when they are.

Re:Likewise

[nlindstrom]

Well, duh! You not only live in the armpit of the United States, but also the automobile theft capital of the world!

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[NortWind]

Think about this for a second. $45K is pre-tax. Take away social "security" tax, state tax, federal tax and with luck $30K remains. Now take away $12K for rent, that leaves 18K. Per month, that is $1500. Now take away food, clothes, medical bill, and maybe a car payment and gas, and there isn't a lot of wiggle room.

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[japhering]

shesh.. $20/hour.. that $41K per year.. hardly any on starts that high. And most, programming types don't get paid hourly.. they get paid a salary and are exempt from overtime rules and regs

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[Anonymous Coward]

Healthcare is cheaper for insurance companies because they can bargain for a large group of people. It would be possible to set up a non-insurance company that did the same bargaining of course, but no one has done it. Presumably for lack of demand.

Re:Likewise

[Anonymous Coward]

I graduated from college back in '96, before the bubble burst, and got a job working phone support for the web server group at an ISP. I made $27k a year.

I decided to become a UNIX systems engineer, specialize in Solaris and Linux, and saw my salary climb to the mid $40s. Eventually at the peak of .com madness, I was making $90k a year as a consultant, on call, go go go, hoist that server, load that SAN, answer that pager, etc etc. Now, post bubble and almost eight years after I graduated, I have a perm UNIX Architect job with a small company making around $75k.

What I can say is this: If someone had offered me $40-$50k a year after I graduated, I think I would have swooned. But being poor was probably one of the main things that motivated me after I got out of school. Can you afford a nice apartment, a cool car, your own T1, and plenty of Thinkgeek toys on $30k a year? No, but you make do. You live with a roomate, you eat a lot of pasta, you ride the bus to work, and you stay late at your office and use their bandwith for projects or what have you. In other words, you pay your dues. You learn the business of software engineering, or whatever you decided to do. And most likely, when you've proved yourself, the first company that you arrive at after college still won't think too much of you, so you'll get your resume together, put all your new skills and work experience on it, and shop yourself around. You'll go on some interviews, hopefully get one or two offers, and you'll almost definitely make more money.

So don't worry about not being Rockefeller right out of the gate. Evaluate your job opportunities on where you think you can learn the most, make the best contacts, and position yourself best for your second job after college. It's likely that that job will really be more important to your overall career anyway.

Just starting now?

[ttyp0]

If your just starting your job search now, you're already way behind. The people who are making good money right out of school are the ones who worked full time during school. People wonder why they can't find a job after graduating college. You know what, there are thousands of people just like you with the same experience competing for a handful of jobs. You need to be different than the rest, and to be different that means skills and experience. If your a college freshman reading this, start looking for a job this summer, instead of drinking beer and partying. Get an internship or co-op and you'll be the one laughing at graduation time... (I speak from experience)

You are getting screwed

[Anonymous Coward]

AUS33K as a sysadmin/netadmin? Unless you're fresh out of school you're well and truely getting screwed. Go find yourself a better job and strive a little instead of telling other people not to aspire to more. "Be grateful for what you're given" is an attitude for losers and serial victims. "Go out there and work hard and get what you're worth" is a much better attitude.

"entry level software engineer"

[moojin]

"entry level software engineer" is not the right title. try "entry level programmer". at the entry level, i doubt you would do any engineering of software. you will most likely be on a team of programmers with specific requirements for the programming project.

Re:Bad news

[verbal evasion]

i would not say that a "traditional" 4 year program for CS is a waste of time. it depends on what school, what courses you've taken, what internships you've had, and also what research you've done. for example, i did my undergrad at cornell and am just finishing my masters here. i applied to one job and got an offer for 70k. i know giving an example does not illustrate a point, but from what i have seen, all of the people i know from various universities getting their undergrad and masters degrees have gotten into a phd program or a job. also, i would just like to add that all my friends (myself included) do not goto top cs schools and have near perfect gpas.

as for the original post, i agree with previous statements to not worry about the starting salary for right now. you should also try to get a job with a big company so it looks good on your resume for future jobs (that pay more). the key is to have something on your resume that you can sell, either some large project you've worked on, research you've done. in my experience, gpa is not too important. just as long as you have 3.5 or higher, that's exactly like having a 4.0. there is an army of 4.0ers out there, so its not a big selling point. for most jobs a gpa of 3.3 or higher should do nicely.

i would not get a degree at DeVry. from what i have heard, its useless. you may as well just get certified or spend that money and time learning it yourself. the original post asked about being a programmer, not a sysadmin/IT guy.

i would agree that tech is no longer a field you enter just to make money, except for maybe biotech.

cynics

[circletimessquare]

cynics know the cost of everything and the value of nothing

Re:You seem to be a bit confused...

[Eric Savage]

"A degree is proof of knowledge"

Well, actually a degree is proof of:

• A check clearing
  
• Completion of narrowly defined assignments you will never see in a professional environment
  
• Some degree of diligence
  
• If the degree is from a good school that means you did well in high school
  

(I don't have anything against degrees, I only take issue with people's misunderstanding of their meaning and value)

It's not the salary, it's the JOB

[psalm33]

First off, location is everything. I am not sure what area you are in, but it is true that salaries can vary widely from region to region (and naturally country to country!)

My first job out of college in 1989 paid about $25k a year as a software engineer. That was near the bottom of the barrel for salaries in my area at that time for a software engineer, but still a respectable living (I coulda probably gotten another $5k-10k in my area for a new hire).
But it was a fabulous job! I worked a mutli-million dollar software development project from start to finish at Kennedy Space Center--invaluable experience and great fun. It may forever remain the fondest memory in my working career--working at KSC, watching shuttles launch where I was close enough to feel the air vibrate as they thundered into the sky, during the peak of the post-Challenger era. Telling all my friends I was a Rocket Scientist (TM).
I've since moved on, but I'm still a firm believer that if you don't enjoy what you are doing, no salary is enough. I'm married with kids now, and you couldn't pay me enough to work 60-70 hours a week instead of spending that time with my family.

Look for the job you're going to enjoy, something you believe in, it will add years to your life, instead of take them away!

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[the morgawr]

What's listed above is great advise; I'll add one more suggestion: In addition to "savings", invest a portion of your income for your retirement NOW. $100 a month every month from here on out will let you be better off then someone who sets aside 10x that much for the 10 years just before they retire (assuming the stock market's performance of the past 60 years is reflective of the next 60).

How to invest(I'm not responsible for this advise, know your risks, etc.):

Option 1: Buy mutual funds; I'd stick to funds with low management overheads like spiders, and S&P 500 and Wilkshire 7000 tracking funds. These do better then 97% of managed funds anyway and the risk and thought are low, just put some portion of your income into the market every month. Possibly put some of this money in bonds as a way of reducing risk.

Option 2: Get a professional to manage your money. This involves learning a little bit and looking into the track record of the guys involved. There's also more cost involved. Typically I wouldn't expect them to be able to out perform the S&P but some do, and your portfolio is taylored to you.

Option 3: Learn to do it yourself. It's not as easy as above, but I wouldn't call it difficult; if that's what you want I'd start with Fisher(Common Stocks, Uncommon Profits) and Graham(The Intelligent Investor). Both of these were written with the non-professional in mind.

Good luck!

Re:Tough to say... but it aint what it used to be

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, good idea. Make sure that the $0.50 or so commission per book goes into a corporation's coffers instead of to a fellow Slashdotter.

Re: Rambling buffoon

[atomicdragon]

Working hard and learning are two different things. I know some students at Caltech that are working very hard, but at the same time learn very little. There are people on the other side that work only a small amount, yet they are learning a lot. Getting a degree from such a place may have some perks, like showing that you can handle stress or some work load, but if you don't know how to do the job you might be in trouble.

What each person gets out of college is going to be different. It depends not only on the college itself, but on the person and how/what they did while there. In the end, just knowing someone has a college degree does not mean too much. Some one may have just as much, if not more, skill and talent from previous work experience. This is where an interview should become important, to see what they actually retain from previous experiences.

Pay

[tail.man]

Be glad you got offers.

How much do you need? Waiting tables is hard work. Greed is not good.

Get some experience and maybe you will be able to have a job for awhile. The third world has lots of folks that know how to write programs and will work hard for little money.

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[kootch]

Not to turn this into a huge discussion on globalization, but the sad fact is that entry level programmers aren't just competing against the local competition in whatever city they choose, but they're also competing against high-level programmers in India and other lower-wage countries (Argentina among others) that will work for the same equivalent wage. While an entry level programmer would have to think about whether $20/hr is a decent wage, an experienced programmer in Argentina or India would LOVE to take that same job.

Not to be a complete buzzkill, but at $20/hr (hopefully w/ benefits), grab that opportunity because it's a good one. If for nothing else, it gets you in the industry during a tough period at a very livable wage. Yes, you could live in NYC on that wage (would probably need a roomate or to live in one of the lower cost areas...)

Re:Likewise

[gfxguy]

I agree. I make a lot more than that (although I've been out of school for ten years, with an MS, and was working during school).

I work shifted days (basically get to make my own daily schedule, as long as I'm there when I'm needed), had been working a compressed workweek (4 ten hour days), but didn't like it (didn't get to see my kids on work days), work at home at least once a week.

The caveat is that sometimes they need me badly, and maybe twice a year I end up working a few 80 hour weeks.

The benefits are great, the vacation is quite nice for the U.S. (and we get combined "paid days off", so I don't have to make excuses about being sick - not that I ever did), which normally gives you a few more vacation days.

I get stock options, although only one set has finally become worthwhile, and this year people on salary got gi-normous bonuses compared to hourly (makes up for the overtime we don't get paid).

I know it sounds difficult, and it really can be - one guy who graduated just a year before me, who I looked up to and actually consider a better programmer than me, makes less in a really unstable job. But you have to make your choices. I was willing to go anywhere as long as I thought I'd enjoy the work. I went on three interviews and got three job offers: boring database stuff (I studied graphics), a job with a startup, or a job with an established broadcasting company.

I took the lower pay and (at the time) no stock options, but the better benefits and stability of the larger company. Still here, and making 100% more (in ten years) than when I started (not including bonuses or options).

My friend kept latching on to "promising" startups and smaller companies. There are slim pickings where he lives, but he refuses to move. There are choices you have to make, and you need to pick the field and type of work you want to do and go for it. We both had degrees in graphics, and he is not working in a related field - I am. I didn't just work my butt off in college, I worked my butt off getting interviews and applying to places I felt I'd be happy working for.

Some people take just anything, and that's what they get.

So if you need to take a job to pay the bills, do it, but don't stop looking for the dream job. I'm not saying I have a "dream" job, but I am very happy here. Be willing to move. Look at salary comparisons for the different areas where you might get a job.

If you are looking for job stability, look for a place where you will be filling a niche position. If you get on a team of webmonkeys, you'll be outsourced. If your the only person writing tools specific to your companies needs, then not only do you become much more valuable over time to the company because of your experience, you become much more valuable because you need to maintain the programs you've already written.

I'm not saying I can't be replaced, but as time goes on it becomes harder and harder for the company to do it.

There are lots of jobs like that out there. No job is 100% stable, but there are some that are obviously worse than others. Use your head.

No, it's you who is confused here

[melted]

An experienced software developer has a LOT more potential than a freshly minted grad. It's this "been there done that" thing. Developers become a lot better when they spend five years on the job and go through a couple product cycles, ups, downs, deathmarches, etc. It's this "been there, done that, won't do it again" thing that they don't teach in college.

Education is Overrated

[Anonymous Coward]

I dropped out of college, and now I get paid $30/hour (salaried) with bonuses 3 times a year in an IT management role, in Tokyo, one of the hardest and exclusive places in the world to land an IT job. How? I just studied what I wanted to study, not what I was told to. How you like me now?

I'll share

[Derkec]

First off, I think I got a really first rate education myself and have since been working for 2 years. I think I have some talent too. I'm fairly confident when I say that in your first job or so, you are really learning more than you providing the employer - at least if you're learning enough. If the job will give you a chance to learn and improve yourself and pay rent at the same time, you're probably getting paid too much when your contribution is compared to the salary of senior developer who really knows his shit - of course there are crappy "senior" developers as well. Anyway, take what you're offered, the main goal is to learn and become better.

Just to share what I've been making.

I interned my senior year at a forture 500 IT type company. I was paid an outrageous $20/hr.

I graduated into the burst bubble and picked up with a small software shop in an expensive area that paid me 40K + a sizeable end of year bonus but lacked benifits.

I moved to a less expensive area and got a job at another small shop at 40K and a weak benifits package.

True, I'm paid better than most Americans, but frankly I salary isn't the most important thing to me. I love what I do, and I'm resigned to my wife making more money than I do in the long term. She's an actuary.

What would I expect coming out into today's market? 35-40K would be fine. When I was at the big company and looked over their pay scales I saw that I would start at 55-60K. I didn't get a job there as they were laying people off when I graduated. That really warped my views of what was reasonable. I suspect that many college students are still feeling the after shocks of that shift as well.

Real World Experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you're in a hiring position, let me ask you this. How much do you value "real world" experience? How much more is a person with prior experience at some job worth than a "fresh" college graduate?

I personally think real world experience is over rated. I mean, a person studies a major to enable him/herself to be productive in a job related to the major. With every manager probably looking for a person with experience, its pretty hard for fresh graduates to get jobs.

Re:Think of the Future - Raises

[Glonoinha]

Never stick around once you have another offer in writing. You were unhappy enough to look around, unhappy enough to go interview, unhappy enough to go buy a nice suit so you could interview, and good enough to convince another company to hire you for more money.

Your old boss may counter with a better offer, but you are going to be on his shit list forever and the first chance he gets to shaft you, you are going to get shafted.

Sure would suck to have them keep you on long enough to transfer all your knowledge out and wait for the other company to fill the slot, then have you be included in the group of people being layed off. Would suck bad.

Negotiate in good faith first with your employeer. If he won't give you what you think you need or deserve, then go looking elsewhere and when you find it, don't look back.

my recent experience...

[Anonymous Coward]

I graduated in Spring 2002 with a degree in CS. I continued to look for a job until November 2002. At that point I had the opportunity to be hired as a temporary tester (writing tests, running test, etc), making 30K. I was only supposed to be there a few months, but after that time, they kept me on as a temp. During that time, they increased my salary to 50K...as a TEMP! Then in Sept 2003, they hired me on full time w/ benefits for 60K. So as you can see, it all depends. I went from no job (only a few weeks from a coffee shop job), to making 60K in less than a year. So my contribution is that anything can help, so take the first job available, get experience, make connections, and move on later if you want to.

Career Path.

[jjgm]

Two points:

1. The waiter has practically no career path to follow. The higher base pay you perceive is partial compensation for this fact. A waiter's salary will not quadruple over the coming decade. They will not become the chef, nor will he likely get to manage the restaurant.

2. My current role includes interviewing developers and making hiring recommendations. Our finding is always that a CompSci degree does not qualify you for a software engineering job. Although some of our developers have a CompSci background, none of them use it in day-to-day work. The mindset and skillset of a software engineer is quite different.

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[Anonymous Coward]

To think my taxes actually include something useful like decent health care.

That's a great laugh. I'm from Canada too and our health care is worse than useless (at least with nothing we can pay for decent health care).

Which part is good? The part where people die after waiting 24 hours in a hospital waiting room? How about when my grandmother spent 8 hours waiting in an ambulence in a hospital parking lot because the hospital was too backed up to admit her and her condition was too bad for the paramedics to leave her. That also meant the ambulence was not available for other calls and it would have cost the health care system less if there were space to admit her.

Our hospitals do colonoscopies with tubes that are so badly steralized "brown stuff" is visable on them and when it's test it still has live E.Coli.

Did you hear about the mother who took her infant to the hospital, the doctor wouldn't even look at the kid and just yelled at the mother for wasting his time. The kid died of meningitis the next day.

If I get very sick or badly injured, I only hope I can make it across the border into the US. My life savings will probably be wiped out but at least I'll be alive. Canada's health care means we all die together.

Oh, and it's not lack of funding. I have a friend who has a CPAP machine. It was $2600 of which the health system paid $2000. The exact same machine is $400US in the US. That sort of waste is rampant in our system. It costs $12 to dispence $2 worth of drugs in our pharmacies. Sure we do have cheaper drugs, but the dispencing fees are insane.

Trust no one, and get EVERYTHING in writing!

[Old Man Kensey]

Three years ago almost to the day, I started working at comScore Networks [comscore.com]. My offer letter contained, among other provisions, the following:

• In addition to my salary, I would be paid a bonus of up to 20% of my annual pay, in cash, quarterly, subject to a good performance review (there were benchmarks established -- so much percent of the bonus for reaching so high a level of objectives met).
• They'd pay off my relocation expenses from my previous company. If I left within a year, I'd pay those expenses back.

Sometime around the end of June, when my first performance review was due, a memo went out. The bonus plan was becoming an annual payout at the fiscal year-end, instead of quarterly, and it was going to be half cash, half stock options. Much grumbling, but in the economy of late 2001, having a job was better than not having one.

Then right after September 11 (October 2, in fact), a bunch of us got laid off. The bonus-payout issue was raised. We were told (this is priceless) that a memo had gone out the day before, but our team hadn't gotten it because our project manager had forgotten to distribute it to us. The alleged memo said that effective with the last quarter (the first one where the deferred-bonus plan was in effect), all bonus payout was to be annual, at the end of the fiscal year, but now it would be all stock options.

Essentially what they did was, in stages and retroactive to the previous two quarters, convert a quarterly cash bonus retroactively to an annual stock-option award. That didn't sit well with me, and with the "keeping my job" incentive removed, I decided to see what my options were.

To make a long story short, the Virginia Department of Labor & Industry [state.va.us] agreed with my interpretation, that since no employee signed any paperwork acknowledging the change in the bonus plan, the original offer letter's terms should stand. That I know of I'm the only person who fought them on this, but they didn't make me sign a confidentiality agreement so I made sure my co-workers knew. By the last day of December 2001 I had in my hand a check for 10% of my salary (6 months' worth of bonus) minus my relocation expenses. I probably could have quibbled over the meaning of "leave" versus "involuntarily terminated without cause", but by then I needed the money rather badly.

Get all the terms of your employment up front, in writing, and keep that paperwork safe!

Wrong Approach

[jamej]

The company and the work should be 90% of your decision, salary 10%. You are an unproven "commodity" if you like the work you're being hired to do and the company is solid financially and in how it treats its employees take the job. Eventually, your demonstrated performance will drive your salary. - Interesting and challenging work makes you happy. - A good company treats you fairly. - Good performance is the best job security. Good luck jamej

I get paid in rupees...

[devilsandy]

I am an Electronics Engineer working for a small company in Bangalore ( yeah...INDIA). The job involves designing circuits, testing , coding for controllers etc. After two and half years I get paid about 14,000 rupees per month ( about $311.11). The current situation in bangalore for a starting tech job in an MNC is about 20,000 Rs/month ($444.44). My skillsets are pretty good I can get into an MNC where I will get paid about 30,000 Rs. why I am sticking with this job?? I pretty much enjoy it, most of my friends are into big companies (Indian & MNC), and i get to know that money is good but not much of a job satisfaction. well with the kinda salary I am getting now, though can't lead a luxrious life, but am happy with what ever I am able to. The reason I am sticking with this job is it offers tremendous growth. I have developed lots of new skillsets in a variety of fields. To be realistic.. I will not stick with this job for long. My point is, If you are a fresh graduate, look for a job that gives you a chance for a good growth in your field of interest and develops varied skillsets. For a few years you can work for a low pay. This can act as a insurance for your future. I forgot to mention my salary dues are over 6 months now.

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[Jason1729]

For what Canada spends per year on health care, they could get health insurance in the US for every citizen that is far superior to the canadian healthcare system.

Canada spends about $5000/person on health care; I see ads on Vancouver TV bragging that BC spends more on health care than the next 10 largest provincial ministries combined. $3000US/year buys good health insurance in the states.

Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]

"but I could make more waiting tables."

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're missing the point: You won't be waiting tables!
I graduated in 2000 with a degree in computer science.
I've been waiting tables ever since.
If you enjoy working with software and computers, you should take that into consideration.
If you enjoy serving people and taking orders, well then, I think you know which career you should choose.
-Steve

Re: Rambling buffoon

[theLOUDroom]

Working hard and learning are two different things.

Right, but they're not mutually exclusive. Often, they go hand-in-hand.

I know some students at Caltech that are working very hard, but at the same time learn very little.

So what are you trying to say with this statement? That Caltech doesn't teach students anything?
I knew plenty of students at my school who didn't learn much or do much work. They failed out of the program.

In the end, just knowing someone has a college degree does not mean too much.

Sure it does. It means plenty. It's absolutely stupid to think it doesn't.

I just amazed. Would you suggest we just say "fuck it" and leave all our education off our resumes?

"Sure you have a doctorate in radar engineering, but you only have two years work experience. I'm going to hire this guy who's been doing stereo installs for Best Buy for the last five years to design my multi-million radar system."

Sure a degree isn't everything but it fucking matters. That's my point.

The post I was replying to said the "in the real world" degrees are meaningless. That's a crock of shit, plain and simple.

Work experience is important, but so is education. Sure you can find examples of people with degrees who don't know what the hell they're doing, but you can find people with twenty years of work experience in a particular field who are also blatantly incompetent. Does this means we should dispense with resumes altogether?
Of course not.
They are a valid, useful method for looking at a person's accomplishments. A degree is one of those accomplisments.
The logic I'm seeing from you and the original post I was replying to would allow someone to say that pretty much ANY accomplisment is meaningless.

Pay...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Guys, my 2 cents... 45K is not a bad starting salary for someone with a Bsc in computer science.... I recently got a job as an assistant professor of computer science (a position that requires a phd in comp sci.) I make 76K as base and 16 as summer pay - total of 92k. I know that google pays approximately 100K to people with a phd in comp sci.

I know from experience in universities that bsc's can't actually do all that much (sorry, but this is often reality!) they are not that well educated; this means that companies often pay higher to masters or phd's. This is due to the fact that there are a lot of those around after the IT marked crashed. if you have been offered 45-50k TAKE IT AND be happy you got a job!!!

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[MrYotsuya]

How did this get modded up?
The administration costs for our healthcare runs at about 3%, which is a fraction of what it costs for an HMO. That runs about 25% since they spend a lot of money trying to deny that you're covered for anything.

Paying your dues...

[ari_j]

I've worked for the past 8 months as the tech for a bank, having graduated nearly a year ago with a degree in Computer Science and every damn honor my college was allowed to bestow on me. I have written many many thousands of lines of code for 'fun', although I haven't kept track so it could just as well be millions. I started at $33k and got a raise to $36k after 6 months. With the hours I end up working, though, that averages out to about $12/hour.

But the sun is shining through - I am currently tendering more than one offer in the $45/hour range, and the contract is short enough that I can still get more education starting in the fall if the sun isn't still shining.

Moral of the story: Take what you can get. You need a paycheck so you can get situated and out of the college lifestyle. Eventually, a real opportunity will knock.

student loans

[Garridan]

Pride is my #1 goal, if it'll pay the bills. Currently, I work to pay my tuition. I find web work comperable to washing dishes at a nice restaurant. Sounds great, but thats often about it. Sure, I get an exciting project once and a while, but I've written enough webscripts that I've made macros for the job just to make it interesting.

In the past, I worked the same job for 50k a year. I had a helluvalot less to worry about in life, and by god, I was happy. It ended only up being a paid vacation; I dicked off the money and moved back home to get a degree. Now I work freelance.

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[Carewolf]

Dont work out on low wage offers. They are companies, and in a salary negotiation situtation your boss is always trying to screw you no matter how nice a guy he is. It is his job. If you get a too low offer, tell them what you expect, and why you expect that. If they say stuff like, it is a "standard contract", everybody makes the same here. Tell them they are lieing and there is no such thing as a standard contract. In business world you have to know, everthing is up for negotiation.

you guys are selling yourselves short

[mixmasterjake]

my advise to the original poster - consider the offers you did get and take the best one. then, continue casually looking for a new job. every time you move from one job to another is an opportunity to improve your position and/or salary. obviously, don't quit every two weeks, but don't feel that you're making a lifetime comittment. especially at the beginning of your career - that is a good time to make moves.

despite all the doom and gloom here on slashdot, i have found that there is still a demand, and it is still easily possible for a quality developer to make a good living. however, the days of the .com boom where fresh grads get huge salaries is gone. i'm personally fine with it because less people will go into IT purely for the money. Those of us left, who actually like the work, will have jobs available to us.

I have had the misfortune to work with people who went into software development just for the money. It sucks to work with those who don't care. Those are the ones who are now suffering the most because they never did quality work and were overpaid. Our current economic situation is a blessing in disguise for people serious about IT. Things will even out, though. It is still a valuable skilled trade.

The subject says it all

[Goth Biker Babe]

Programmers are the production line workers of the 21 Century. It's not programmers that are needed but software engineers and the two terms are not synonyms. Software engineers analyse the problem, create designs and document them, create models (e.g. UML), use patterns, define APIs, integrate existing software components and the like. Once you've done all that properly the rest is just a mechanical process that any reasonably competant individual should be able to undertake. You need some management skills, design skill and a good general knowledge of technologies and software engineering concepts.

The company I work for has outsourced some of it's programming requirement. This has indirectly sorted the software engineers from the programmers in house. For a typical project we now carry out requirements analysis, an iterative design approach resulting in a detailed model and documentation and often framework code. The then whole thing goes to our outsources so they can do the boring bit, filling in the blanks.

Re:Tough to say... but it aint what it used to be

[nmg196]

What the hell was wrong with him using his affiliate link?

Does the link still work? (yes)
Are the goods the same price? (yes)
Can you even tell that you arrived via a referrer link? (no)
Does it affect you in any way that he used that type of link and made a few cents out of it? (no).

What a loser...

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[Bigman]

Isn't it a bit bizarre to take that stance? The word "Gay" traditionally meant "Cheerful and lighthearted, Bright or lively (esp. in colour) with the implication of triviality." In the USA (and hence later the rest of the world), homosexuals adopted the term to refer to themselves. The use of the word 'gay' to mean something of questionable taste or value us more closely related to the original meaning than its more contemporary, co-opted one.
The simple truth behind all this PC nonesense is that words mean what the speaker/writer intended and not what other meanings you might like to read into them. The word 'nigger' is considered offensive by most coloured people, although my African friends often use it to refer to eachother in an affectionate way. In the same way that you referred to yourself as 'queer' but might be offended if someone you didn't know did the same. It's because what is said is not the same as what is meant. If someone wishes to be offensive, they can do so without resulting to curses or insults; likewise is someone uses those words to you they are not necessarily being offensive.
In case you're wondering, yes, I do know what it's like to be picked on because of my appearance and lifestyle. For most of my life I have been overweight, and I am a Goth, so from time to time I get called names in the street, when I was younger 'cool' guys would think it funny to pick on me, and now I'm older people just think I'm strange.. But I make my choices, and I live with them.
It is sad that increasingly the world is becoming more and more superficial in every aspect of life; looking at the surface, and being unconcerned with the deeper truths. The most alarming thing about the tide of PC crap that society has been engulfed in since the 60's is that it focusses peoples attention on their outward behaviour and not on their inner attitudes, and it is the latter that does all the damage; it is the latter that gives rise to bigotry, hatred, intolerance and violence.

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[fucksl4shd0t]

this is one of those cases where it really isn't about being "PC" or not, it's about not being mean. we're here. we're queer. we don't like being called names :-(

Quit acting so queer, I swear. Don't you have any balls?

Isn't slang great? ;)

Now, to get to my point, as other posters have pointed out, 'gay' was adopted by homosexuals to refer to themselves. I can see it, too. "I'm a man, I love men, I'm happy about it." Right?

But I can't help but think about the gay people I've known in my life and how many times they told me "dude, that was gay" or "I can't believe you said such a gay thing" or "I went and saw *insert stupid romantic comedy* and it was like, so gay".

So, I gotta agree with these other people, really. I'm not walking on eggshells for you, unless you're willing to refer to me in only the fashion I dictate. But I won't tell you in advance what's acceptable, I'll wait for you to say something wrong and then whine like a, well, like a bitch.

It's a hard world. There's lots of us that want to see see fags and dykes all get the rights they're due, the same rights the rest of us already get, and we're willing to put both votes and bullets in the right people to make that happen. In light of that fact, what's more important to you? Our common goal, or your childish need for attention?

Make up your mind.

Remember Cost of living.

[CompilerLite]

I would have to say one thing not to forget is that Cost of living varies. A $20.00/hour job in WI isn't to bad at all. Considering that a 4 bedroom house is between 100k to 200k. It really depends on where you are living.

Let's see. What was my first salary? Oh yeah, $11k

[AppyPappy]

It was crummy money but I tripled it in less than 5 years in the early 80's.

The bottom line is that money is less important than experience. If you get pigeon-holed writing some dead language like QuickJob or StruBASIC for better money, you don't win. Take less money to get the experience that will pay off in a few years. You want to use in-demand languages in in-demand application areas. Screw the money. Having fun is more important than fun.

I remember being at the beach and calling my bigshot CPA buddies at their office all weekend to rag on them. Or my ex who was pounding RPG code in a mill somewhere. Their response was always "Yeah but I'll be a VP when I am 40" which got them "Yeah but you'll still be OLD just like me".

Take the hot job with the hot skillset and have fun.

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[Malc]

Oh don't be so melodramatic! How did this get modded up? From what I've experienced, the system is nothing like that.

My wife has just been diagnosed with a potentially fatal autoimmunue disease... no waiting around at all. Furthermore, I don't feel trapped in my job like I would in the US where I would be scared of losing my medical coverage for her.

I recall when I lived in the US of a co-worker whose husband developed Lou Gehrig's disease. The first thing she did was start looking for a job whose health care plan would accept patients with pre-existing conditions as she was scared our current employer would go under or would be bought and the health plan change - what kind of existence is that? That's just wrong.

My wife's grandmother needed a quadruple heart bypass, no waiting for that either. There have been several other members of the family who've needed medical attention or surgery and none of them have had any of the issues you speak of.

I'm sorry about your grandmother, but that's the exception and not the norm. I've heard similar stories from the US too. I've heard similar stories from other countries in the world. Now stop reading the Toronto Star and try to get your news from somewhere less sensational and more objective and realistic.

if(computerScientist==softwareEngineer) shoot(me);

[mist3rb0jangl3s]

While this may stray a bit from the topic at hand, it may (indirectly) help you to understand some salary-related issues. You mentioned you have a computer science degree, and yet you are inquiring about the starting salary for a software engineer. This is your first problem -- you aren't a software engineer! You aren't even an engineer. In a world where everyone is trying to get something for nothing, it's high time people started realizing that the title of "engineer" belongs to an individual who actually has an engineering degree (and nowadays, that's not even enough -- you must take a battery of certification tests as well). This practice of adding the word "engineer" to job titles (such as waste management engineer) is tired and really inappropriate. Perhaps if you ask for the starting salary for computer scientists you might get somewhere.

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[dsasser]

> If they say stuff like, it is a "standard contract", everybody makes the same here. Tell them they are lieing and there is no such thing as a standard contract. In business world you have to know, everthing is up for negotiation.

I *did* work for a start-up where we were all paid the same.

When I was hiring there, someone taking the "you are a liar" approach would have ended the negeotiations immediately.

I got some *excellent* experience there that helped me jump whole salary levels later. The work environment was pretty cool, too.

Look at the whole package and make your choice. Salary is the easiest to measure but not the only important part of a job decision.

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[spectasaurus]

Man,

If you really think the grass is greener, then move. You'll soon find the same 8 hour waits in American emergency rooms (ask me, I know firsthand), the same shit on endoscopes, and the same wastes in terms of costs. Doctors on the US are business people. They make more money dispensing 6 doses of chemotherapy, than one dose of radionuclide therapy. Know how I know, I work in the health industry in Canada, and used to in the US. Canada's health care system isn't perfect by any means (ie, lack of PET imaging), but if you think the US is any better, you're extremely naive.

Oh yeah, and the tax situation in the US is not a whole lot better than in Canada either. You have to count more than just Federal or State taxes when you calculate the tax burden. There are so many more fees for other services in the US that people take for granted and don't include in their texes.

wrong wrong Re:wrong

[Specter]

"Also, buy the most expensive house you can afford"

This is the most common advice I hear given to first time home buyers and it is among the worst financial advice to receive. DO NOT buy the most expensive house you can afford.

I know a lot of people who followed this advice and ended up house poor because their financial circumstances changed and yet they're still locked into an investment that's not liquid.

Most of these people found themselves screwed because they bought as big as house as they could afford and then suddenly realized that when they wanted to have children their house payment was holding them hostage: one of you want to stay home with the kids? sorry, got the mortage to pay.

Also due to the dip in the economy many of these people found themselves without a job. Whoops. Again, their high house payments meant they ability to respond financially (say by taking a lower paying job for a while) was compromised because they couldn't or didn't want to sell their house and at the same time they couldn't afford to take a job that wouldn't allow them to make payments!

When you're looking for a house location is more important than the current price or the square footage. Ideally you should be looking for a house in the lower range of a nice neighborhood; some place where you're not going to find a gas station or a fast food joint across from your back yard some morning.

As for the folks claiming the only advantage in having a house is the tax deduction, don't forget that:
1) You're not paying rent
2) Your house may appreciate in value as well.

Jared

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[Nspace13]

The fact that it is a cultural norm is the problem. No I'm not gay and I don't get all frothy over people's use of the word in the above context. But the point is that the use of gay to mean "bad" or "dumb" or "stupid" is continuing the negative stereotyping of gay people. Whether you mean anything bad towards gay people or not by describing something as gay, you are continuing to propagate the idea of gay being bad. You should never use the excuse of cultural normality to justify your actions. Think for yourself.

There _are_ standards...

[IncohereD]

...especially because of the proliferation of fair employment bills and the like. Canada actually tried to implement a Universal Classification System across ALL government position in the entire frickin' country.

Of course, after $1 billion or so, it failed. But in the meantime they did standardize a hell of a lot of salaries. You can negotiate what level you start at based on your experience, and occasionly get a double increment if you have a good year, but otherwise the increments are standardized.

Be grateful you got job offers

[Zed2K]

With so many people out of work and here you are complaining about getting 2 job offers right out of school that won't pay "enough"? I wonder what the offers were for. Out of college I wasn't being paid much at all.

Re:Shit, I missed this.

[mr_luc]

I just wanted to say that if I had Mod Points, I'd mod that Underrated. But for a different reason.

"Not to say at all that $20/hr would be bad, just by comparison. I'm actually quite happy with my wage."

Myself -- I'm making, quite literally, $10 per hour -- and coding at a very high level, database-to-business objects-to-presentation level, and am even occasionally (read: when I have the time) asked to write and create visual content for the end-user documentation. I only have a 2-year AS degree, from a small technical college. (I got it when I was 18, but it's still just an A.S.)

I'm surprisingly happy with this job, despite the fact that when I work long enough hours, my actual hourly wage has gotten as low as $7.50. I think that the reason for it is two-fold:

1) I live in an area with a fairly low cost of living, in semi-rural Minnesota. More importantly, I have a lot of friends and family in the area -- and it's not that easy of an area to find a job in!
2) Because I am such a good value, I am afforded a lot more freedom in the way that I do my job, and in how I get to solve problems. This is a must, particularly when you occasionally have to work with procedural programmers (who are your superiors) that still feel that OOP (or functional programming, yadda yadda -- no elitism) is not "real work".

And I should probably add to that list a third reason:

3) I love programming. I respect programming as a real engineering profession, not as something that you can just *do*. Even with visual development tools :P. I am amazed by it as a science, enthralled with the study of complexity in general. And I am enormously satisfied by solving problems the *right* way; this is how I imagine most other programmers feel about their jobs, but I've met a few for whom this is very much not the case.

When these sort of things work out in your favor, and you aren't tied down, and the work that you're doing is actually more satisfying the harder you work on it -- then as far as I'm concerned, you've got it made. Regardless of what you're making per hour.

Re:I don't know a good rate...

[mks113]

>> $3000US/year buys good health insurance in the states.

As long as you aren't sick....

One of the reasons that our health care is expensive is that it extends to the poor, the elderly, and those with medical conditions that would preclude them from getting affordable insurance in the US.

No such thing as easy money!

[z00z]

... I could make more waiting tables.

Then go ahead .. wait tables .. in 5 years, you will still be waiting tables .. with the same salary or slightly better .. in 10 years you might actually get a $10k increase and be promoted to work at the bar. 15 more years and you might become the restaurant manager were you get to rub shoulders with the elite regulars. Then you actually might afford to buy your own house.

Why does the younger generation think that they should be worshipped because of their CS degrees? No offense to the OP, but CS graduates now are a dime a dozen. In India, a dime could even get you a few dozens. Just be thankful that you have a job. Once you work for a couple of years, you'll be able to better judge what your next move should be. And, if you want my advice, work hard, and try to distinguish yourself at work. Look for something useful, and do it well, better than anybody else. Be proactive and do more than you're asked to. I can't be more specific as it really depends on what kind of job you'll be doing. But, keep this in mind, and you will reap the benefits later.

As a side note, I once tried to calculate how much my barber makes a year. I was living in Montreal then, and making in the mid $80K CDN. The barber charged $20 per cut excluding tips, worked alone, and his place was always full. On a bad day, he would cut 20 heads at least, which gave him $400/day. He worked 6 days a week, which means 313 days a year. 313 * 400 = $125.2K/year minimum! I can only imagine what my wife's hair stylist (who charges > $35 for a normal cut) makes. The down-side is that it's a pretty boring job, from my point of view at least.

Re: i don't know a good rate...

[Tackhead]

> you spend $200/month on food? assuming that your roommate spends a like amount, how on earth do you eat?

Pasta: $0.50 per meal (3-3 meals out of a 1-pound bag)
B33F: $0.50 per meal (3-4 big helpings of sauce out of a $3.00 glob of ground beef)
Garlic, herbs, veggies, bread: $0.10 per meal - considering how little you need in a pile of good sauce and garlic bread) Wine: $0.50 per meal (again, a $2.00 bottle of red plonk to add zest to tomato sauce, or white plonk to add zest to bolognese)

For $2.00 per meal, you can eat pretty fucking well.

Don't have time to cook? Bullshit! If you add up the time it takes to get to the restaurant and wait for someone to prepare it for you, you're probably saving time, considering that you can make 4-5 jars (if you're clever about when/how/what/if you add the meat/wine, each with a different flavor) of sauce in one session, and freeze it for later.

These kinds of savings scale all the way up the ladder. Consider a steak dinner. $20.00 a pound for filet mignon. So you get a couple of 8-oz filets and pair it with $0.50 worth of veggies, potatoes, and onions ($0.33 per pound!) for onion soup and sauteed onions. That's a $100.00 meal for $15.00, and it took you about an hour to prepare it.

Want dessert? You know those wonderful chocolate balls that you pay $1.50 each for at Godiva's? Buy some $5.00/pound high-quality dark chocolate. Melt it down in a pot with some $2.00/250mL cream. Add a splash of cognac. 20 minutes later, pour into a big pan and chill it overnight. Tomorrow afternoon, chop it into cubes, and roll the cubes into balls. (Optional: If you have an SO, have fun licking each others' fingers :) Congratuations! You've (optionally: gotten laid, and) made $100+ worth of chocolate truffles for less than $10.00, and it's taken you about half an hour.

I eat about $1000/month worth of food every month. I pay about $150. Life is good.