Moving Up the IT Ladder in a Poor Economy? 892
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by
Cliff
from the jumpstarting-your-career...again dept.
from the jumpstarting-your-career...again dept.
Andy asks: "As almost anyone who joined the IT industry on the tail end of the Dot-Com boom can tell you, trying to move up in the industry for the past couple of years has been like jogging up-wind in a hurricane. I have sent resumes to countless numbers of employers only to still be working in the same $13/hr. low-end outsource support job as when I started (and $13/hr. doesn't get you too far in Boston these days). Learning more and more languages/technologies/protocols has merely resulted in a larger skill set on my resume, with pretty much the same level of experience, and no new interviews. Has anyone else been able to get out of this sort of slump, either during this economic slump or a previous one? Should I just continue the path of learning as much as I can and applying for jobs? Would getting a cert (maybe an RHCE or some Cisco certs) help? Would it be worth it to get a degree in MIS or CS?"
It's who you know, and what you know (Score:4, Informative)
I doubt many employers want a mediocre jack-of-all-trades kind of guy. You're better off selecting one or two specific areas and focusing on getting experience within it. Most of the technicly adept and smart employers know that tech certifications are pretty much a bunch of BS, but some still require it if you want to get your foot in the door. The same goes for degrees. Either way, couldn't hurt to have it.
And btw, FP bitches!
Volunteering worked for me (Score:5, Informative)
Same Pickle (Score:2, Informative)
Strengthen existing skills (Score:5, Informative)
In my opinion, a mile wide/inch deep skillset gets you nowhere. If a resume passed my desk with 50 million skills and 5 years total experience, I am going to question that resume right to the circular file. But maybe that's just me.
You don't have a degree? (Score:5, Informative)
Get a cert, throw it away (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Same Pickle (Score:1, Informative)
IT salaries were outragously inflated through the dot com era. I many places they still are. If you are a sysadmin, you're really not doing a job that is much different than an operating engineer's role.
If your salary expectations are higher than what a unionized mechanic can make, you're going to need a new career path.
Re:Back To School (Score:3, Informative)
When I went to the University of South Carolina in 1991 the tuition was around $1200.00 per semester, rumor has it that it's over $3000.00 per semester now. Roughly 13 years over doubled in price. Granted this isnt Ivy league, but not much hope of working part time and paying for shool at those prices. Only hope is to get loans, grants, etc and pray the economy eventually comes back to some semblance of what it was.
Re:You don't have a degree? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Uncle Sammy will double your salary right now! (Score:2, Informative)
More like "duck when you hear Iraqi terrorist fire, and hope the Army keeps the terrorists away from the server."
I don't think the military pays anywhere near that well (GS-11 through GS-13) unless you're a high-ranking officer sitting in a nice air-conditioned office FAR from the front. And even then it would be in the O payscale, not GS.
Oh, and also, make damn sure you don't snap any pictures of American bodies going home, otherwise you can kiss that cushy IT position goodbye.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Informative)
Real Headhunters work for companies to find the right person to fill a slot, whereas one of the other kinds throw as many bodies at a slot hoping that one will stick. The key difference between the former and the latter is that you don't contact the former about a job, they contact you.
Re:Two Choices (Score:2, Informative)
I started my own business too, and it enabled me to move way up the ladder in the past two years: from tech support to Webmaster. I had confidence in myself. I was willing to fall flat on my face and fail. I took a chance. Worked hard. Treated people right. Was honest. It paid off.
One tip: when you have many skills, and little experience, tailor your resume to the job you're applying for. If they want an ASP developer, don't tell them you can do ASP, PHP, Perl, and some JSP. Tell them you can do ASP.
Then, to add to that, tell them you work well with other people. You're not selfish about your turf. They're looking for a quality person who can do the job. Show them that you're a quality person that can do the job. Then, when you get the job, be a quality person, do the job.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Informative)
Emphasis mine.
An RHCE is worth more than a Linux+ because its a damn site harder.
A CCNA is worth... well.. not much... except as the prerequirement for a CCNP. An MSCE is fine if you want to support windows, but the combination of an MSCE, A+ and CCNA isn't really that great. You are better off investing all your time and effort into one stream. Generalists are dime a dozen.
Note that if you are a support engineer, these certs are good for you. If you want to code, get a degree.
Re:Back To School (Score:3, Informative)
IT's dead. Get over it. (Score:3, Informative)
Move to a small town (Score:5, Informative)
I did my job, met people, tried my best to get known as a great tech and I now have a great job as a System Admin that I love to death. The cities are full of people looking for your kind of work. Get out of there and go somewhere that needs people that know the things that you do. Of course, you won't find any software companies in small towns but you will find TONS of businesses that have to use computers and networks to get their jobs done, and all those people need someone to work on their computers.
Most small towns have a few computer repair businesses that take care of the businesses but the days of walking in and fixing a computer quickly are over. It takes time to get to know someones network and software and you can't do a good job if you're charging an hourly rate like the small computer support businesses do. These areas are perfect for convincing a business that they will save money and get better service if they hire you as their admin. Show them all the things that need to be done on a daily basis like following security advisories, updating computers, checking security, etc.
The company I work for pays me quite well and they said their past 3rd party support cost them 3 times as much as I do, and more gets done quicker. Before they would have to wait to get something fixed, sometimes up to 3 days. Now things get fixed immediately and revenues are up because of it.
Re:Same Pickle (Score:2, Informative)
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Informative)
(Here's a reference at FindLaw [findlaw.com])
So, if this wasn't a business reference, was it a personal reference that went sour? That would be really sad... but I would have thought you might have known that this person was somewhat sour on you...
Not knocking you, just curious how this came about. I would never give a reference that wasn't a very positive one; I'd just omit those entirely! There's no rule that you have to give contact information and references for every job you've ever had.
Be creative - don't be a robot (Score:4, Informative)
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Informative)
I think you'll find that about half+ of the employers just don't have a clue about military training so attach no real importance to it; for those, you need a civilian cert or two.
But it really shouldn't be any problem, the civilian tests are comparably simple, and most likely the navy will pay for you to take them.
Also, a couple of general end of service pointers:
get a good copy of your medical record NOW.
during the discharge process, make sure that EVERYTHING is on your DD-214.
Ask for a notarized copy of your security clearance pages from your service jacket, in addition to your discharge copy.
Go to the dentist. if they start something prior to discharge, they will complete it at the VA, even if it takes years... and civilian dental insurance is often not included in job insurance packages.
I would probably suggest the same about general medical; hit the docs NOW with any persisting problems you might be having.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Informative)
The CCNA has no prereqs. Its the entry level cert.
The CCNP and CCDA require the CCNA
The CCDP requires a CCDA.
Cisco won't send you the certificate if you don't fulfill the prereqs.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:2, Informative)
Pick an interesting area and do it for several years. Then pick a different area and do that for several more.
I've been a programmer/analyst for business software, a network engineer, and a system administrator, among other things. Do it long enough to get good at it, and then transition to another area.
The skills you gain in one area will be invaluable in other areas. Your sysadmin tells you that the program you wrote is killing the server or the network? You'll have an idea what they are talking about, and how to avoid it, once you've walked in their shoes. Your local Mouse-Clicking-Solutions-Expert tells you that a certain sysadmin task will require you to press "OK" four hundred times? You'll know how to avoid that through automation or scripting once you've done some programming.
Let your boss know you are interested in trying something different. "Hey, I heard about the XYZ project. If anything comes up for our department, I'd be interested" and so on. I've had opportunities come up simply because I was the first one to mention being interested, even before there was anything available.
The most important part is don't wait for somebody to ask you if you want to do something. Try stuff out at home. Volunteer to do extra stuff. Ask questions. Don't wait for a job opening to come up; start doing more advanced work and the promotion will follow.
Re:Back To School (Score:2, Informative)
It never ceases to amaze me that someone can be sitting in front of a computer and say something like "rumor has it" and just pull some number out of their ass and throw it on out there.
In fact (i.e. this isn't a rumor) resident tuition at the University of South Carolina [sc.edu] for the 2003-2004 academic year is $2,774.00.
Isn't technology wonderful?
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:1, Informative)
When a CV comes across my desk with all of those skills listed, provided it's reasonably well written I'll bring him in for an interview.
In my opinion, the thing that makes a CV stand out is the demonstration that the candidate has applied himself to a particular domain. It's all very well knowing a language, but what's the point if you haven't used it?
It doesn't cost anything to learn about a particular domain and demonstrate some level of understanding by writing software to experiment in that domain. It could be anything from computer graphics to improving software quality, but it's best if it's related to an industry you want to get in to. As well as giving you a foot in the door it helps the interviewer come up with questions for you - questions that you will hopefully be confident answering and so can really show off your interest and knowledge.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Informative)
Your skill sets and your work (Score:3, Informative)
while my degree has been of great assitance, more than anything my experience has been the real bargain maker. Questions about degree's last less then a minute in your average interview, do you have one or not is all they want to know most of the time.
But job and real world experience are the goods employers will really ask you about, this is where youve got to be able to say youve done good work in the trenches. Working for smaller companies in IT/IS will give you great experience, even if its for less pay.
lots of guys take grunt jobs with "impresive" big companies and end up with resumes that are less impresive... can you say you designed, implemented and supported a new and growing network? or did you just keep the system running? Have you designed, and built applications or key components of them? or did you just fill in code?
Youll tend to get stronger experience working in less attractive jobs but demanding jobs.
While many people will say a jack of all trades resume is bad, the skillset can be quite usefull in creating a new company or helping one start, which may be a better option for you. The main problem with just "learning" skills without truly using them in a real world application is that your unproven.
Stay up with your education, and use what you learn to make real programs, shareware and so on, create a full-fledged (ecommerce,security,flash,CMS, etc...) web site for a small company who may not be able to pay you.
If you take the risk, and the lower paying jobs (or even charity cases!!).. youll find your work oportunities increasing quite quickly.
P.S. ..... go to night school... get the degree... its definitly worth it...
Re:Volunteering worked for me (Score:1, Informative)
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Move! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:My suggestion is (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Cost of Degree (Score:3, Informative)
And who says you need to go to a school that is THAT expensive ? I went to a technical community collage and got my associates degree in Computer Science and Engineering Transfer ( it was for transferring to a 4 year school as the 1st 2 years ) and finished in night scool at a local community college for far far less than that. My 2 year degree cost me about ( granted this was in 1986-1988 ) 360 per semester for 4 semesters = 1440 for 2 years. My 4 year degree was about twice that so I paid a total of 4320 for my 4 year degree ). And yes.. the degree meant quite a lot when starting out. It gave me a 43 % increase in salary at one job ( going from an engineering aide to a full engineer ). And I too am making around 6 figures a year ( with bonuses ).
Re:Move! (Score:2, Informative)
I working outward from where you live. Take note of the kinds of companies in the area. Think of the companies they do business with (who are also likely in the area and you may never even see them). Look up stuff on the Chamber of Commerce website.
The ideal position for moving up is to work some place where there *aren't* enough positions for everything. You want to work someplace where they can't just call some bozo from the corporate office to fix a router. With a smaller shop the first question they'll ask is, "Who knows how to fix a routher?" That question will be asked without regard to who "owns" it. All you have to be doing is standing around and hear that it's broken. Do something like this and save a small place small dollars and you *WILL* be recognized. You'll start to be included on conversations about how things work. You'll be asked for your opinion. These things aren't possible at a large corporation that just multiplies time served by merit points and attendance at company diversity meetings.
I took a job managing some documents once (they needed a person who could read English well and engineer-speak). They decided to test me out at some CAD stuff and thought I would do well at it. My training was: "Here's your computer, here's the plumbing codes (stack of books). Draw."
Learn the business first and you'll get to pick your role later. A year of industry experience is far more important than any particular skill.
"I implemented a java solution to reconile Accounts Receivable and Accounts Payable in real time."
"I implemented a Weblogic solution using J2EE and XML and blah blah blah."
The people that actually hire are impressed by the first and fall asleep at the second. It doesn't matter what the industry is or what the job is, the person with industry experience has a tremendous advantage over the other applicants.
Unless it's telecomm, that's just poison these days. I tell them I was in prison (Guest Services Industry).
Security clearances are indeed golden (Score:1, Informative)
FYI - Lockheed Martin (a former employer) is probably the best bet if you don't have a clearance - they have big rooms full of salaried people just sitting around waiting for the clearances to come through. Also the National Security Agency is hiring IT folks like mad, and they will bump you right to the top of the clearance queue. They also have a very good cooperative education program if you happen to be in college right now.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:1, Informative)
But, that doesn't mean you'll get one. Everyone is untrusted, and only those people absolutely needed and trusted are granted clearance. National security is not to be taken lightly.
More than just tech skills (Score:1, Informative)
You need to spend just as much effort networking. The most important part of any career is the personal relationships that you develop. This is how you find opportunities. There is no substitute. You can't compensate by learning more technical skills. I'm not saying that you can ignore the tech skills. In geek parlance they are necessary but not sufficient.
For most of us geeks it is much easier to learn a new tech skill than it is to work on the social skills. To be successful you many times have to learn to do things that don't come naturally to you. I know guys who have finished their PhD's. They have tons of skills but they are sitting there wondering what to do now because they spent all their time being gear heads and avoided the social aspects.
It won't solve everything, but get the degree. (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway, a degree will also give you broader technological exposure than any path you focus on in a career path. You'll learn fundamental concepts that you won't likely pick up on the modern career path (like the concept of assembly language, or microprocessor operation, or how to determine the optimization of an algorithm, etc.)
ob.anecdote.amusing:
A non-degreed co-worker who is a coder and former MS employee asked once what he would learn from a college degree that he wouldn't learn just from career experience.
I responded, "OSes other than Windows."
Re:Strengthen existing skills (Score:3, Informative)
Sure, you don't want to know "just enough to screw up" all sorts of scattered things... but people narrowing focusing/concentrating on a single specialty eventually burn out, or find their work obsolete - and then what?
Most mid-sized or larger corporations like to hire from within, so you have the chance to move around into different areas once your foot is in the door. I think it's best to keep a varied enough skillset so you have these options open to you.
Programming is but a means to an end... (Score:2, Informative)
1. Learn *everything* you can about a real technical domain area that has nothing to do with computers. People don't care whether you can program -- they care whether you can program WHAT THEY NEED.
2. If you are a US Citizen, haven't sold (or consumed) pounds of cocaine, and believe that honest people on the inside of the system can make a difference, GET HIGH LEVEL CLEARANCES. There is a serious shortage of talented pepole (or untalented warm bodies, for that matter) in this area.
3. Present yourself, not as a computer professional, but as a business professional.
Supplementary info:
1. Seriously, who cares whether you know the latest object-oriented, distributed, web-based, googlephonic technology. What people REALLY want is someone who can bring those talents to bear on actual applications that they care about.
I have been a software engineer for a bunch of years, but the best projects I've worked on (and where I have been most valued) were ones where I had to actually learn something about what it was I was writing programs about. When I went back to graduate school in CS to get a Master's degree, I ended up working with people in Biochemistry and Molecular Genetics, working on algorithms for DNA and protein sequence comparison. Since then, I have spent *much* more time reading and learning biology than software.
2. Before I went back to grad school, I worked on military projects involving imagery compression and algorithm optimization. While checking the assembly code generated by the compiler was important, it was every bit as important to understand fundamental aspects of the imaging system involved, from the point of view of optics, error correction, and end-user (imagery analyst) needs. This was cool work, and important for our guys on the ground in the middle of nowhere.
There is currently an **extreme** shortage of dedicated, knowledgeable people with clearances in areas of national importance. Acquire these clearances, and you will never want for employment. Plus: CAN'T BE OUTSOURCED TO FOREIGNERS.
3. Somewhat along the same theme, be a provider of valuable services, not just a computer guy (gal). Right now, I have a contract with the Natinal Institutes of Health, doing research into diseases that affect millions of people. The reason I got this gig is not because I am a sharp systems engineer (which I am), but because I can *communicate* with the biologists and MDs who have very real and difficult biological and medical problems which can only be solved through an understanding of the problems and the shrewd application of computer technology.
When in doubt, hack your heart out! (Score:3, Informative)
Go for it! Make yourself stand out. Don't just be another specialist weenie. Show them guts, skill, determination and spirit. Even in a down market that gets noticed.
Re:Cost of Degree (Score:2, Informative)
my tuition and living costs are closer to 10-15k than 40k a year.
I don't know is an important answer (Score:3, Informative)