What Happens when Legit Services are Seen as Spam? 75
AssFace asks: "I run a blog that is dedicated to just things relating to spam (for the most part, the discussion is of how to stop it). I received an e-mail from a reader of the blog today that described the situation he was in.
His words: 'I have a small recruiting business, with about 600 paying clients who are looking for jobs in education. About twice a month, I send an update message to all of them via e-mail. I also send them personal messages as needed. Unfortunately, Hotmail (which a great many of my clients use) seems to think that I am a spammer. With Hotmail's spam blocker set on "Medium," my e-mails go to the recipient's Spam folder.
AOL and Yahoo may be blocking my messages as well, though I'm not yet certain.' I wrote my own thoughts on it and then offered it up to comments from the users of the site. My responses to his e-mail apparently weren't anything that could help his particular situation.
So, regardless of the validity of this particular person's plea, what is a small business service to do if they are blocked by the major ISPs?"
Whitelists (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Whitelists (Score:2)
AOL does have a feedback loop that lets you know when your mail is blocked. I can't remember what it is called off hand though.
Re:Whitelists (Score:2, Interesting)
If these people want jobs, then they have to start being competitive. Learning to use email is a good start. It's imp
Hotmail whitelist? (was Re:Whitelists) (Score:1)
I do not see any information on whitelisting anywhere on the Hotmail web site.
Re:Hotmail whitelist? (was Re:Whitelists) (Score:2)
One of our anti-spam guys has been engaging in dialogue with a lot of the big mail providers like aol, hotmail and yahoo. You won't find it on their front pages, but if you dig around you'll be able to contact their post masters and work from there.
Re:Whitelists (Score:2)
Contact the ISPs. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Contact the ISPs. (Score:1)
bondedsender.com (Score:4, Interesting)
protection rackets and other evils (rant) (Score:1)
These hopelessly ineffective anti-spam "services" fail to consider the impact of their business methods on the poor users. Every one is different. Every one wants you to do a Special Thing to prove your innocence. Every week someone else decides they h
Is he actually being blacklisted? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Is he actually being blacklisted? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Is he actually being blacklisted? (Score:2)
Some spam filters are more aggressive than others.
Rule: No AOL or Hotmail. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Rule: No AOL or Hotmail. (Score:2, Insightful)
He's running a small business. For a massive company like Amazon or eBay, yes, this is an ideal solution, but he shouldn't be forced to alienate clients because of their choice of email provider/ISP.
This should be an extreme last resort!
Re:Rule: No AOL or Hotmail. (Score:1)
Use Powweb: 650 free email accounts. (Score:3, Insightful)
He could give free email accounts using Powweb [powweb.com] as a web host. (650 email accounts allowed for $7.77 per month.) Powweb seems to be the best web hosting provider. Since all the mail would be coming from and going to his own domain, it can't be blocked. Isn't that a complete solution?
He could provide instructions to prospective customers about h
Re:Use Powweb: 650 free email accounts. (Score:2, Insightful)
First, that "solution" forces his clients to check another email account. Major PITA (?) [urbandictionary.com].
Second, while PowWeb provides good web hosting for $7.77 a month, bear in mind that you get what you pay for, and that I have been less-than-happy with some randomly introduced email issues.
Do you have any experience with Powweb? (Score:3, Informative)
About two years ago, I reviewed 550 web hosting providers and came to the conclusion that PowWeb was the best for low- and medium-traffic sites. I've had to explain to customers that, even though Powweb is inexpensive, it is better than all the $30/month web hosting providers I've seen.
Re:Do you have any experience with Powweb? (Score:2)
My evaluation only took three whole days. (Score:2)
Many hosting providers can be eliminated because their web pages indicate that they are badly managed.
Re:Do you have any experience with Powweb? (Score:1)
Yes, I do. I've run three websites throught them for over 2 and a half years now; I've been with them through their growing pains and have seen many of the limits (HD space, inodes, throughput) quadruple or more in that time.
PowWeb still makes changes that will catch you with your pants down (apache/php/sql configuration changes, changing your IP address [a real problem if they don't manage your DNS], and others), and they still have problems with email -- the la
Powweb. Free email as an option. (Score:2)
One influential tech support person at Powweb was very immature and very willing to lie. I see no evidence he is still at Powweb.
I think clients could be warned that there are often problem with Yahoo, AOL, and Hotmail email, and offered a free alternative if they want it. Properly introduced, I think a free, business-only email a
Re:Do you have any experience with Powweb? (Score:1)
While it's a good idea; it does not seem very feasible. Are customers willing to use ANOTHER e-mail address ? Most are lazy and probably will feel burned by checking an extra e-mail account just for his business.
Re:Rule: No AOL or Hotmail. (Score:2)
Find out why (Score:5, Informative)
Find out why, and fix each thing that comes up. Maybe his mailserver has no reverse DNS, fix that. Maybe his ISP or his IP is on a blacklist, get it fixed or take his business elsewhere. Maybe subscribe to a service that handles email marketing responsibly, like (gasp) Microsoft's bCentral, they will make sure that they don't get blacklisted.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Blacklist the blacklisters (Score:1, Informative)
I tell you, the radical anti-spammers really are becoming more of a problem than the actual spammers! Spammers are evil: they make email hard to use and take up Internet resources. Radical anti-spammers are worse: they actively try to make email not work. They are the primary reason I have to run my own mail server. I don't want to lose email because some idiot admin thinks some email I got is spam and deletes it. Or worse, just blacklists whole swaths of IP space. Unfortunate
Re:Blacklist the blacklisters (Score:2, Funny)
If you try sending any email with big, red letters in it, it's DEFINITELY going to be marked as spam.
Re:Blacklist the blacklisters (Score:1)
Re:Blacklist the blacklisters (Score:1)
So I did and now my card doesn't work at all. Stupid spam filter...
Re:Blacklist the blacklisters (Score:2)
Re:Blacklist the blacklisters (Score:2)
Actually, I think that this is exactly what will be necessary. Something like e-mail that isn't e-mail, that is based on "sender pays whoever they're getting internet service from" needs to come along and everybody needs to change over. You get to send up to x number of emails or y number of bits during each billing period if you're on a "$19.95 a month for all the dial-up you can eat" type plan and if you exceed that limit you pay extra (rolling over unuse
Re:Blacklist the blacklisters (Score:2)
Re:Blacklist the blacklisters (Score:2)
Re:Blacklist the blacklisters (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Blacklist the blacklisters (Score:2)
A bit OTT but you are onto a real problem: blacklists will (and have already) make running mailservers a lot more difficult and thereby will help consolidate control of email by a few big players. Just the sort of thing /.ers like, right?
It also takes some time to discover that your emails are disappearing: my ISP was blacklisted and it was sever
Earned the ire of the anti-spammers? (Score:2)
Please explain where you've "earned the ire of the same anti-spammers"? I really would like to know.
I know many individuals who run their own mail servers, and in fact many of them are themselves anti-spammers, they chose to run their own server because they wanted stricter spa
Re:Blacklist the blacklisters (Score:1)
Report it... (Score:5, Informative)
Habeas (Score:3, Informative)
Basically you just have to include a special, copyrighted Haiku in your e-mail, and most spam filters will let your mail through. The Haiku warrants that your e-mail is not spam, because you have to license the usage of the Haiku, and the terms prevent from using it in spam mail.
I'm not sure if Hotmail respects the Habeas Haiku, but it might be worth a try.
Re:Habeas (Score:1, Redundant)
Re:Habeas (Score:2, Informative)
Yes - spammers putting random words in is an effort to avoid being automatically judged to be spam based on content. The Habeas poetry is a pre-set sequence that can bypass the same filter (if the filter is aware of it). The idea is that it is *illegal* for the spammer to put that particular piece of poetry into an email.
Of course, the idea is slightly daft, because I get "spams" that offer illegal products (in my jurisdiction). *If* the spammer could be found, they could be shut down -- but they
Re:Habeas (Score:1)
I think these things are good, and there is a happy medium, but probably for most of the folks who run afoul of these laws, the law is irrelevant. Folks who go around town with ak47's probably intend to commit multiple felonies, what's another couple charges to them? Likewise, folks who intend to murder other folks probably aren't concerned with the severity of the penalty. The basic punishments for murder seem like
Re:Habeas (Score:2)
Unfortunately, probably not.
Some months ago a spammer was abusing Habeas' copyrights, so I set the SpamAssassin score that my mail server assigned to Habeas to zero. I never removed that zero setting and I expect lots of other SA users also have a zero Habeas score in their SA settings.
Re:Habeas (Score:1, Informative)
I have never received real email that contained the Habeas Haiku. On the other hand, I have received hundreds of spam messages that contained the haiku. I learned of Habeas when I was trying to figure out why an obvious spam messa
Re:Habeas (Score:2)
you don't get invited to parties... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:you don't get invited to parties... (Score:2)
Sad, but a vital piece of my anti-spam now (Score:3, Interesting)
Problem is that the spam keeps coming, and sucks *my* bandwidth.
So I thought about it... And here's what I do. I use a hotmail account. With spam protection. Set to DELETE spam. I use a script (gotmail) to read the hotmail and transfer to my "real" email. Hotmail does a pretty good job on anti-spam, *and* I don't have to bother about the bandwidth.
Once we have a relationship established, you get my "real" email.
And I'm sticking to it. Works for now -- I've only had 100ish pieces of spam in the past year. Note that Hotmail seems to have improved the anti-spam features in the last six months (there was a sharp drop in spam).
If I subscribe to a list, I *only* use the hotmail address. Bet your bippy. I don't *trust* you yet, and I don't know where that email address is going. If the list gets bounced -- I don't see it, and, frankly, I don't care that much. Better than getting hammered on my server using my bandwidth.
My sympathies though... good luck dealing with Yahoo, Hotmail, (__fill_in_the_blank___).
Ratboy.
Using that Hotmail account to buy anything? (Score:2)
Suffered this. (Score:5, Interesting)
To get around these problems, we have basically had to implement a private communication system in our product so people see notifications when the log in. For frequent users, this works well enough they can turn of the e-mail notifiers, but for very occasional users, having to log in to see notifications takes a lot away from the ease of use.
Frankly, I don't see a great fix anytime soon: the spammers have taken to copying legitimate e-mail messages into "hidden" text, while the actual spam is delivered via CSS and Image tricks...the battle rages, probably for at least the next ten years (at which point I'm hoping that public key cryptography will allow people to prove they are actually who they say they are) which is why we created a backup communication channel.
AOL offers a whitelist for legit services (Score:2)
BTW, I recently stumbled across the AOL web site where they describe their IP based whitelist and how large-volume email sending sites (legitimate mailers) can be added to the whitelist:
http://postmaster.aol.com/tools/whitelist_guides.h tml [aol.com].
While the AOL users may have a reputation for being clueless, the postmasters at AOL.com do some cool things. As I recall, AOL was the first major ISP to start rej
Turn Guerilla (Score:2)
buy a laptop & wardrive you way to an open access point et voilá, one clean spamming spot.
rinse, repeat until everyone is blacklisted, move town
write better emails (Score:2)
If your emails sound like spam, fool around with them until they no longer sound like spam. Mail your own test hotmail address and see how it's received. Hotmails spam blocking may not be perfect, but I'm sure it's not out to get you specifially.
If you're emailing all 600 people in one batch, that's idiotic and email each person indi
Re:write better emails (Score:1)
I don't see how it's idiotic--assumming mailservers are blocking mail merely because they consider emails with more than a handful of recipients to mean the mail is spam, I can't see how pandering to such silly behavior is in the long-term best interest of anyone.
In fact, RFC2128 even discourages such behavior:
Re:write better emails (Score:1)
Do what the spammers do (Score:2)
Seriously, it depends on why you are getting filtered. If you are getting filtered by content, then the spammer's techniques may actually work. If you have been black-listed, then your best bet is to work with the ISPs to see what you can do to get taken off of their blacklists. If possible, have your users white-list you.
legit mass email (Score:1)
Sending mass email using CC or BCC is just about a guaranteed way to trip the filters at AOL or Hotmail. I'm pretty sure they check the message id in the header, among other things.
For the most part, I tested by sending email thru spamassassi
Is he spamming? (Score:2)
We have only the recruiter's word that he is not a spammer. Is his 600-client email the ONLY email he sends? I think we all know about the reputation that recuiters have. I've received spam from recruiters and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was spamming to get new customers as well as sending his monthly updates to clients.
RSS Feeds (Score:1)
Once spam forces more to go down this track, I'm sure better tools, and better integration with desktops will open the flood gates.
Answer: You don't. (Score:3, Insightful)
The idea is to filter out things that look like spam. And I'm sorry, but what you say you're sending sounds like a lot of the spam I get, so it rightly should get filed as Junk.
That's not to say that it is, indeed, spam, if it's a pay for it sort of list. But the thing is that no email service deletes spam by default. If your message are getting foldered off somewhere, then it's up to the users to whitelist you and let your emails appear in their inbox instead of getting junkfiled. All of these free mail services have such capabilities.
But I would certainly hope that there would be nothing the sender of the email could do that would move his mail from my junk folder to my inbox. If they can, then the spam detection needs to be fixed. See the idea here?
Re:Answer: You don't. (Score:1)
I have scripts that send out messages in both of those situations as well as to deliver 30 day trial URL's. In every single one of those cases, the user directly requested it and in one of those cases, the user is
Re:Answer: You don't. (Score:2)
I hear you and understand your dilemma, but what I'm saying is that if you have any actual way out of this dilemma then it's likely that the system is broken. The whole point is to put the user in control of what they get, and to remove co
"Legit" services??? He _is_ a spammer (Score:1, Funny)
That name sounds familiar. Let me check my inbox -- ah yes:
Re:"Legit" services??? He _is_ a spammer (Score:2)
Considering the commonness of the name "Eric" and the freakin' cliche commonness of "Smith", I think it's a bit of a leap to instantly assume these are the same person. I'm not saying they are not, but I am saying that I'd personally need a bit more evidence to buy into your theory here...
Email is broken today (Score:2)
Emailed newsletters that are paid for are blocked.
Emails from friends and family are blocked.
Forget it. Email is broken. It cannot be used in a reliable sense by any commercial entity. Partly this is due to the anti-spam activists that want all "commercial" email banned. Partly this is due to ISPs that implement filters and have decided that they do not need to whitelist anyone without performing their special procedure. You cannot win at this game - the
use hashcash (Score:1)
wh