How Prevalent are Bogus Degrees? 141
Paul Townend asks: "The BBC are reporting that a US government investigation has found that 28 top federal employees possess bogus college degrees (usually based on 'life experience'), and the phenomenon may be much bigger. Have Slashdot readers come across or worked with people with such degrees? Does it give them an advantage? What happens when they're discovered?"
Shows (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Shows (Score:1, Insightful)
Because you get paid based on your experience and education. It's simple fraud.
GW isn't a good example of a Yale education either.
Re:Shows (Score:5, Insightful)
Because a lot of jobs require degrees for no reason.
I don't see how you can call it "overcompensation".
If they weren't doing the job they were hired to do, then they should have been fired for poor performance.
If they were doing the job well enough to command their compensation without getting fired, then that proves the degree is bullshit, by your own argument.
Re:Shows (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Shows (Score:3, Interesting)
What you have to understand is that the "signal to potential employeers that you have the determination to achive something difficult" speech is code. What co
Re:Shows (Score:2)
Social background? Yeah, there's some correlation there.
Race? Not if the applicants are first matched for education, experience, and/or background. The reason it's no longer a legal criterion is because there are far better indicators available than fading stereotypes... and oh yeah: using race as a hiring criterion is socially corrosive, and individually unfair.
Re:Shows (Score:1, Flamebait)
Re:Shows (Score:2)
Yes. Welcome to the late 20th Century. Please keep moving, and you'll catch up with reality pretty soon.
Re:Shows (Score:1)
Re:Shows (Score:2)
Re:Shows (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes. A lot, but not all, did. Social background and education are much more informative than skin colour. If you factor these two terms in, you have already used all the information given by skin colour; if you add skin colour in, you are effectively double counting. And these other measures are more efficient: they allow you to drop white dropouts and bring in brilliant blacks.
It is true that if you had no other info
Re:Shows (Score:2)
Reference, please? I've read the opposite.
"It also tells employers that the holder of the diploma is likely have an IQ above some threshold."
So the indicator indicates that they would probably score higly on another indicator? Not very useful. Seriously, don't you know "smart" people who can't or won't do a rat's hindquarters? I do - plenty!
Re:Shows (Score:2)
It also tells employers that the holder of the diploma is likely have an IQ above some threshold.
The IQ threshhold for obtaining a degree from some prestigious institutions is not necessarily as high as you guess from looking at the highest IQs of rejected applicants.
Some accepted applicants with family money and connections and just spending some time at a high quality private school can obtain entrance with a lower IQ than someone coming from left field, no money, no name, average public high school.
Re:Shows (Score:2)
"It is not always fair, nor is it always effective, but it's easy and convenient for employers to use to do some initial screening." And that is exactly the truth. What is being used is a crude and wasteful method compared to what is available (i.e. IQ tests).
Re:Shows (Score:2)
That school of thought is based on the now bygone era when someone who had graduated from college *was* someone who had achieved something difficult and was unusual. Fast forward to the present era when scholarships and grants and loans are commonly a
Re:Shows (Score:2)
If you really believe that they aren't overcompensated, then feel free to start your own company and hire these people at slightly less than the salaries they were previously getting. "By your own argument", if they weren't overcompensated before, you'll be getting a real bargain now and will be able to outcompete the companies that care about college degr
Re:Shows (Score:3, Funny)
If they do the job good enough for what they're being paid for, even though they don't have a degree, then what's the problem.
if they're being paid more than their competence should allow, then the company is stupid for paying them that much.
Re:Shows (Score:2)
It's all irrelevant anyway because even if they were as competent as the company thought when they hired them and set their salaries (unlikely), they are still liars and the kind of people who lie about something like this are probab
Re:Shows (Score:1)
That argument is bogus, because of the perception of value in the degree.
Those with skills will be more likely to get a degree to ensure they can get a job fitting their skills, whether they wanted to get a degree or not.
Yes, this means the a lot of the most skilled peopl
Re:Shows (Score:2)
Re:Shows (Score:1)
It's not a sort of test at all. It's something that pretty much anyone with two brain cells to rub together can get. It's bad because it isn't a valid test of anything.
Skilled people get it because they think they have to, due to the perceptions of employers. Employers require it because they think it indicates some skill.
Do you need me to draw you a Venn diagram?
Re:Shows (Score:2)
This is true, except that they are both right. It really does affect the perception of the employer, and it really does indicate skill. So, again, what's the problem? Obviously, going to a crappy school isn't going to require much skill, but guess what? That's why degrees from those schools aren't as helpful for getting good jobs or high salaries.
In Corporatist America (Score:3, Insightful)
In Corporatist America, being a liar means that you're better qualified to be a C-level executive.
Re:Shows (Score:3, Insightful)
You must be new to the US. The way things work are HR writes an impossible requirements page. Recent grads. with no work but lots of classroom experience, put as many buzz words in and get their resume padded that way. People that have been working for 10 years, but don't have anything other than a HS diploma if that j
Re:Shows (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with your opinion is that there are some folks who didn't graduate from HS, College, or both who have made millions. Bill Gates is one of them. But, on the average, a dropout isn't going to make as much money as somebody who got the BS. But that doesn't mean that the other 99.9% of folks who didn't "finish their educa
Re:Shows (Score:3, Interesting)
My thing is that I graduated with a BS from an state university. Both my brothers barely made it out of HS. Both my brothers make more than me. I know it averages and odd data points. I just hate seeing my brothers do better than me money wise when I was always ahead of them in grades in school.
Lif
Re:Shows (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen folks with a BS or even an MS from great schools who couldn't code their way out of a box. I've seen bright folks who had such obnoxious personalities that nobody wants to work with them. I've seen folks with a PhD in random off-the-wall fields with no "useful" degrees who can both code well and manage people. I've seen grads from great schools with no common sense. I've seen folks who didn't graduate and got a plum job and then had problem years down the road when they were trying to find a new job and the market wasn't the same as before so they couldn't. I've torn apart folks in an interview because they didn't know anything about the words they stuffed in their resume. I've seen excellent artists getting in trouble in art schools because they didn't stretch their own canvas or used computers or such things.
There could be a variety of reasons why your brothers are doing better than you are other than education.
Degree didn't get you ethics (Score:2)
Perhaps you distinguish dishonesty between "outright lies" and the category that resume padding falls into. I guess resume padding is just plain old lies. But then you imply that resume padding is not even lying. The distinction is a self-serving one.
Resume padding is dishonest. If it wasn't dishonest, it wouldn't need the special name, would it? It's important and
Re:Degree didn't get you ethics (Score:2)
What I forgive somewhat is padding, not outright lying. If somebody puts Java on their resume, I'd expect them to at least be able to explain a little bit about it, maybe talking about interfaces, inner classes, etc. Perhaps they screwed ar
Re:Shows (Score:2)
Re:Shows (Score:2)
Re:Shows (Score:2)
Does an Economics degree count? (Score:4, Interesting)
Most US universities actually offer two Econ degrees: one in the liberal arts college and one in the business college. Generally the arts degree requires upper level language and literature study for a B.A. while the business college requires upper level marketing and accounting classes for a B.S.
Depending on the university, it is possible to get an Econ degree without writing a single paper in four years. Econ classes (at least the ones that I took) never required undergrads to write papers. For my upper-level arts classes, I ran the university film committee for three semesters. Got college credit and got paid for doing the projection work.
Generally Econ classes are not difficult if you accept the fact that what you're studying has little grounding in reality. For example, we were taught that high unemployment and high inflation would not happen at the same time, but that was exactly what was happening in the late 1970's when the deficits incurred as a result of losing the Vietnam War and the OPEC oil shocks were working their way through the economy after a few years delay. (Don't look now, but something similar will likely happen again in about five years).
Anyway, the classes were full of contradictory material, there were no papers due, and no seriously difficult material to master. So is an Economics degree bogus even when it's legit?
I might add that there is absolutely nothing that you can do with an Econ degree. If you are not making more money from student aid, Pell Grants, scholarships, and subsidized student services than you are paying for tution and opportunity cost of hanging out in Econ classes, then chose another major.
equivalence systems (Score:4, Insightful)
Even with a real degree, I'd certainly have doubts.
Re:equivalence systems (Score:4, Insightful)
An education isn't supposed to be a job training program, it's supposed to help you develop the skills needed to tackle any problem. This usually means doing more experimentation and research and less belching up whatever you crammed in last night on a test. Knowing where to look up obscure details is more important than memorizing them(because you will probably forget them anyway) However, that seems to no longer be the case in America's schools, and it is indeed sad.
Sayonara creative problem solving!
Re:equivalence systems (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't want emergency personnel that have to look up things in the big book what is wrong with me and how to treat it. It may take them 10-15 min. to look it up, but I want them acting on me to save my life in that 10-15 mins not looking up information that they should know!
Re:equivalence systems (Score:3, Insightful)
This is an entirely different situation. Medicine is considered a "professional school" (much like law, dentistry, etc.) in which the point is to learn the skills and background needed to do the job and
Re:equivalence systems (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:equivalence systems (Score:2, Interesting)
And another good point was raised in that all EMTs have an educational certification, but that's not what allows them to practice. The certification to work is issued by e
Re:equivalence systems (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:equivalence systems (Score:2)
Re:equivalence systems (Score:2)
Re:equivalence systems (Score:2)
Real World School (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:equivalence systems (Score:2)
Honarary degrees are similarly interesting. It's usually a given that they require a lot of approval from the various professors, who are snooty enough to not give a degree to just anybody. And also, if
Re:equivalence systems (Score:2)
I don't even have an associate's degree, seemed like a big waste of t
Re:equivalence systems (Score:2)
Have you considered the obvious bias they have? I've been through two completely different undergrad programs (I'm a bachelor twice over) and I found plenty of rigor in both of them.
I don't even have an associate's degree, seemed like a big waste of time for the career I'm in and truthf
Re:equivalence systems (Score:2)
Undergrad program curriculum seem to look a lot like a checklist and not a very deep one at that. I always thought that checklists were for Trade Schools, not Universities. So when did University curriculum switch to trade preparation? Are the jobs available so specialized now that even the Undergrads need such single-minded exam
Re:equivalence systems (Score:2)
My first bach degree, for example, was based on a checklist that required me to take classes in literature, economics, a foreign language, math, history, psychology, theatre, music, physics, philosophy, phys ed, and religion.
Re:equivalence systems (Score:2)
My personal experience is that after finishing my undergrad degree at a not-too-highly-respected public university, I then applied and got accepted into graduate school at a 'prestigous' private university. I quit after one semester because I found that the material we were covering was farly obviously remedial (even using the same books I'd used in lower-level
Call me Dr. $99 (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course, forget about those 'honorary' degrees, or non-accredited but soon-to-be universities such as the Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering [olin.edu].
This story runs into a pet peeve of mine. When people are caught with fake degrees, their employers usually say "Oh, it's okay, we didn't hire him for his education anyway. Just his experience and background." My reply is, did you hire him for his integrity and honesty? Cause you sure didn't get what you paid for. And it's not the foreigners doing it. It's American citizens.
Conesus
Re:Call me Dr. $99 (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Call me Dr. $99 (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Call me Dr. $99 (Score:2)
I have had an exact opposite experience. I once had an interviewer actually ask me if my degree was from a real school or if it was a diploma-by-mail degree. Now, my school may not be widely known but it is fairly highly respected.
I did get even, though. About a year later, my current employer asked me to evaluate several products. One of whi
Re:Call me Dr. $99 (Score:2)
How can someone be expected to respect a school they don't know. I don't think the interviewer was trying to be an asshole - he was probably just being thorough. Don't take these sorts of questions personally.
About a year later, my current employer asked me to evaluate several products. One of which was the company that the asshole worked at. Needless to say, they didn't stand a chance in hell of landing our business.
I sure hope
Re:Call me Dr. $99 (Score:2)
How can someone be expected to respect a school they don't know.
I don't know a large oercentage of the schools out there. I could certainly find a way to learn about the interviewees school without asking denigrating questions.
I sure hope for your current employer's sake the the vendor you chose had a superior product to the one you rejected for personal reasons.
Maybe it was. I can say that every person that's heard that story now realizes they may have to do business one day with the people they int
Re:Call me Dr. $99 (Score:2)
Well, I 'spose the interviewer could have googled for the school in question before conducting the interview.
they may have to do business one day with the people they interview.
Very true. However, in spite of first impressions and all that, I personally don't write someone off until the second time they piss me off. My first dealing with someone may just have been on their off day - and I've had en
Re:Call me Dr. $99 (Score:2)
Seriously though, what is a fake degree? Just because they are not accredited? No job posting I have seen says "requires a BS from an accredited university". They just want a degree. If the government doesn't make non accredited universities ille
Re:Call me Dr. $99 (Score:2)
What a rip off my doctorate won't cost me a penny, although these [epsrc.ac.uk] people have stummed up quite a bit.
I'm unimpressed (Score:3, Insightful)
In any case, if you have a degree from something like that "Capella University" that advertises in banner ads here, it's not like you're reaping huge benefits from it. The biggest is probably in union jobs or whatever where a degree automatically gets you a higher pay scale.
Re:I'm unimpressed (Score:5, Informative)
"Assistant Secretary of Defense Charles Abell has a master's from Columbus University, a diploma mill Louisiana shut down. Deputy Assistant Secretary Patricia Walker lists among her degrees, a bachelor's from Pacific Western, a diploma mill banned in Oregon and under investigation in Hawaii"
These two, at least, are indeed just below cabinet level
Re:I'm unimpressed (Score:1)
And, as the AC points out -- Pacific Western is one of John Gray's alma maters, along with some University of Transcendental Meditation in Europe.
Re:I'm unimpressed (Score:3, Informative)
Mr. Abell is not "Assistant Secretary of Defense" as the article claims. His actual title is Principal Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness [defenselink.mil] which puts him three levels below Rumsfeld.
Likewise, Ms. Walker's actual title is Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense (Material and Facilities) [dod.gov] (PDF), but even that's misleading because it's only for Reserve Affairs. In other words, she's 4-5 levels below Rumsfeld, as this PDF indicates.
In the big scheme of the federal government, those
Re:I'm unimpressed (Score:1, Interesting)
Actually, that's incorrect. Of all the students at Capella, the majority are working on their PhD's, second largest group are working on their Majors, then Bachelors, then Undergraduate work.
I don't know about you - but I don't know
Re:I'm unimpressed (Score:1)
Classify Bogus degree (Score:4, Insightful)
I would be much more concerned with individuals in government that claim to have degrees from the University of Texas (graduating with honors) when in fact they flunked out after their freshman year. ( I know this one happened when said in-duh-vidual came to speak at a commencement at my college and ended up getting exposed ).
The problem as I see it is that a lot of "automatic" extra money comes along with saying I have an additional degree - there needs to be limits on this "automatic" money, to include things like "from an accredited source". The government is just a bunch of idiots if they accept degrees from non-accredited sources
Re:Classify Bogus degree (Score:2)
An excoworker had one (Score:4, Funny)
One of them was looking to buy a forged degree from the California State University system. The posting was from a few months before he got the job with us, and of course, when he applied he said he had a degree from Cal State Long Beach.
All of the others postings of his were personal ads of him looking for someone to kidnap and anally torture him, or for someone to dress up like a super hero in spandex with him. The day we found all of those was the day I laughed the hardest I ever have in my life.
The guy wasn't well liked to begin with, but all of his old newsgroup postings made it so we couldn't even look at the guy without laughing.
Re:An excoworker had one (Score:2)
Re:An excoworker had one (Score:2)
Re:An excoworker had one (Score:2)
Re:An excoworker had one (Score:2)
Luckily, I got out of that company a few weeks after the posts were found. I'm at a much better job now. I've still got friends at the company though.
YES. (Score:4, Interesting)
Turns out he has +3 years of C. Which he can't code in, no solaris exp, no linux exp, no SQL exp, and did not know how to put together a computer from scratch. Let alone, no Certs at all and a bogus degree.
The kicker? They hired him, then found all this out. Did they fire him? Nope cut his pay in 1/2 and put him in customer service.....I am amazed to this day.
The justification quote "We could get him for 1/2 of what we pay you."
Classic, just classic.
Re:YES. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:YES. (Score:2)
Read "Art of Deception" by Mitnick (Score:3, Interesting)
Offtopic, but interesting.
There are a lot of "fraulleges" out there.. (Score:3, Informative)
Then again, they're not a "Send us $99 and we'll give you an MBA" type of school, either.
Yeah, TESC is good. (Score:2)
An aunt [osint.org] of mine got a degree (not sure whether it was a bachelor's or a master's) there after a fair amount of work experience. I don't think there's any doubt in anyone's mind (including the state AG she works for) that she's qualified to do the job(s) she does - criminal analysis, anti-fraud, anti-terror, you name it. Honestly, she'd probably be qualified based on
Bogus Resumes (Score:2)
Re:Bogus Resumes (Score:4, Interesting)
But maybe management *is* their talent (Score:2)
Re:Bogus Resumes (Score:1)
At my college, this was fairly common practice. Then again, the software engineering program was rigourous enough, and covered 26 different compilers, that anybody actually *graduating* with a BSET could pick up any computer language in a weekend well enough to debug and in a week well enough to write a text editor.
Picking up languages after you've scheduled the interview isn't that hard.
Sound-alikes schools (Score:3, Informative)
Let's not forget degrees form sound-alike schools; such as MIT -- the Miami Institute of Technology.
And yes, such a place actually exists. I think it's above a convenience store.
You'd be surprised if I told you where in the UK.. (Score:2)
Re:You'd be surprised if I told you where in the U (Score:3, Interesting)
While you're right that they hand out bogus degrees, the MA isn't the bogus one. The BA is bogus.
When you enter Oxford or Cambridge as an undergraduate, you're studying for the degree of MA. The MA is a seven-year course, just as it has been for the past eight hundred years.
After three years, you've finished your lectures, and you get a certificate saying that. This certi
Re:You'd be surprised if I told you where in the U (Score:2)
Re:You'd be surprised if I told you where in the U (Score:3, Interesting)
Bogus Degrees... My Experience (Score:5, Interesting)
Among the projects were memorial things like sticking colored beads to styrofoam spheres with pins (very attractive), drawing, and other things that struck me more as being "arts and craft" than math.
About two years after I was out of junior high, she was arrested on the basis that her teaching degrees were completely fictious. She was sent to jail for a few years.
The irony was, that after she got out of jail the city hired her as an accountant. Go figure. And I suck at math and blame it on her (but you should see my beaded styrofoam sphere collection :).
Bogus how? (Score:4, Interesting)
How is my degree more valid than a $99 WalMart degree? Because I paid more money for it?
Wired News coverage about diploma mills. (Score:3, Informative)
Check out Wired New's coverage of diploma mills:h tml [wired.com]
http://www.wired.com/news/school/0,1383,54596,00.
They note that US colleges should be accredited by either the Department of Education [ed.gov] or the Council on Higher Education Accreditation [chea.org].
one important factor (Score:1)
In plain english, this means if you ignore veterans preference that someone with only 1 year experience and a bogus Masters degree can be hired in preference over someone with no degree but 5 years experience.
I know it sounds insane, but keep in mind this is the government and it actu
They won't get discovered ... (Score:2)
Order your bogus degree here (Score:2)
Additional services include transcripts [instantdegrees.com] and "professorships".
I'd like to see a "transcript".
Re:What do you expect? (Score:1, Funny)
Re:What do you expect? (Score:3, Funny)
I assume you studied under Edward Teller [dhushara.com]?
Re:What do you expect? (Score:2)
Ah, the Harry S. Truman Scholarship I suppose?
Re:Nope (Score:3, Funny)
Not sure if they count as "bogus", though, and they're probably worth more than an MCSE.
Hamburger University (Score:2)
Here's the resume [peterlee.net] of someone who has both a Bachelor of Hamburgerology degree and an "A+" certification. You can judge from this how much either is worth.
Take the Tri-State Tollway to I-88 west. Exit at the McDonald's Plaza exit and turn right onto 22nd St. Turn right at Jorie Boulevard, then left at Ronald Lane. Hamburger University is on your right.
Re:G.R@DU4TE N0W (Score:1)
Re:Degrees (Score:3, Interesting)