Corporate Work in the US vs. Canada? 1309
No One You Know asks: "I've been working as a sysadmin for an insurance company in the US for the past six years, and have decided to move to Canada. I've had it with corporate America, but I'm trying to keep an open mind while job hunting. How does Canadian corporate life compare to that of the US?"
Re:Dodging? (Score:5, Informative)
The ever-popular "dodge the draft by fleeing to Canada" no longer works.
Re:Socialist Country.... (Score:5, Informative)
Not quite. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Don't Get Sick (Score:3, Informative)
Got a job offer already? (Score:4, Informative)
Slightly off topic, I suppose, but you know that the unemployment rate in Canada [statcan.ca] is currently higher (7.3% April 2004) than the US unemployment rate [bls.gov] (5.6% April 2004), right?
And you're a Canadian citizen or have compelling reason to believe that you'll be offered a work visa (personal connections, obscure and valuable skills)?
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Don't Get Sick (Score:2, Informative)
Um...actually, this is very much a nation of hunters. There are LOTS of guns up here. I think the statistic is that there are around 10,000,000 households, and 7,000,000 guns.
Get Sick all you want, and you won't go bankrupt. (Score:3, Informative)
Myth. That is simply not true [yahoo.com]. Canada's health care system is no worse, but also no better than that of the USA.
Depends on location (Score:4, Informative)
I think you will find Canadians more reserved in corporate life or outside of it.
Re:Leaving the country is a bit over the top (Score:5, Informative)
A lot of Canadas laws are a lot less harsh than those in the USA. We have copyright obviously, but stuff like sharing music is legal. My friends can borrow my cd's and burn them, I can download from P2P networks, etc. All legally.
We certainly dont have anything like the patriot act or the DMCA.
I'm sure we will eventually be in the same boat, but currently, you can have a bit more peace of mind living in canada than the usa. (All IMHO
Re:As a Canadian... (Score:4, Informative)
And that is as it should be.
Consider the entire package... (Score:2, Informative)
1. Keep in mind that taxes in Canada are WAY higher than in the U.S.
2. Canadians in general are poorer than their American counterparts, meaning less money to spend on luxury items like nice cars, etc. (largely related to the tax thing
3. Corporate culture will vary a LOT depending on the company. I worked for 5 different companies while I was still living back home, and let me tell you they varied A LOT, from very relaxed places to very high pressure atmospheres.
4. You will be a foreigner in our land. You'll have to get a visa and do all that immigration crap.
But hey, I really like Canada, and when I visit my home country versus visiting the States, I really notice the difference in the culture between the two countries. Canadians are definetly friendlier and more relaxed than Americans (except for New England, what a friendly place!), and I think that's much easier to tell after you spend a few years away. Great country, and I definetly will move back there someday.
Re:Well... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Two Words... (Score:3, Informative)
Of course, the coffee was consistently lousy, but that's just my opinion. And the donuts were awesome.
Re:You make less (Score:1, Informative)
One other thing worth mentioning is that even if your salary turns out to be lower, cost of living is equally lower.
Re:You make less (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Speaking as a Canadian... (Score:3, Informative)
Err, before I get marked flamebait.... that "If you are American" obviously is a typo, it should read, "if you are Republican" Oops.
Re:hardly (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Guns... (Score:3, Informative)
Canadians have about .25 guns/person, the US has about .89 guns/person.
Re:Meet the new boss (Score:2, Informative)
Seeing alot of misinformation... (Score:4, Informative)
Myth #1 - Taxes are really high.
Reality: not really. You don't pay 50% until you make over $100,000. The average annual tax burden is somewhere around 30-35%. There are provincial and federal sales taxes, however, and you can't write off your mortgage interest. You can, however, put money into a retirement savings plan, and that investment is tax free, and the growth on that investment is also tax free. You pay tax when you withdraw. Also, there are no inheritance taxes in Canada, unlike the US.
Myth #2 - You have to make $80,000 CDN to have the same lifestyle you had on $60,000 US. Depends on where you come from. A friend who worked in California found that if you made $60,000 CDN, you needed to make $60,000 US to have the same lifestyle - the exact opposite. Cars are more expensive in the US, rent is more expenive in parts of the US, etc. And this is compared to Vancouver, one of the most expensive parts of Canada.
Myth #3 - the unemployment rate is higher in Canada
Reality: it's computed differently in Canada vs the US. If people stop looking for jobs in the US (ie they can't find them), then they aren't considered unemployed, whereas they are still counted as unemployed (or perhaps unemployable) in Canada.
Myth #4 - It's tough to get into Canada
Reality: if your young, healthy and wealthy (or well educated), you've got a pretty good shot. We have two Europeans working in our office, and both just became citizens.
Other things to note: health care is essentially free. At worst, you'll pay $100 a month for basic care. Most employers then add extended health and dental. You go to the doctor or dentist you want. None of that HMO crud you see in the US. But because healthcare is public, you have no option of spending more to get better service (ie to use private services). In the US, the more money you are willing to pay, the better the service you will get. But you have to pay the money up front. Families aren't forced into bancrupcy because an uninsured family member comes down with cancer.
If your wife/girfriend gets pregnant, and she was working and paying taxes and employement-insurance-deductions (most everyone does, unless you are self employeed), she can take a year off with partial pay. Alot different than 6 weeks of no pay that you find in the US.
In most parts of Canada, you can find true wilderness an hour or less from where you live.
Expect to see hockey as the national pastime (the national sport is lacrosse, and it's actually pretty popular); forget baseball or basketball unless you live in Toronto. And Vancouver has the 2010 Winter Olympics.
Things aren't as hyper-competitive as they are in the US, and as a result you'll find it a bit less exciting, but a bit more polite; people hold doors, wait their turn, and say "Thank you" (a Canadian TV show did a skit about a Canadian version of Fear Factor, and one of the things a Canadian had to do was to say "No" to a waiter/waitress when asked if their meal is ok - couldn't do it).
On the job front, things seem to be improving quite a bit. Canadians tend to work less than Americans. You are more likely to end up in a union (yuk) but sysadmins are usually only in a union if they work for the government. Someone said that Canadians take their jobs way too seriously. I've found it was exactly the opposite. Overall, I didn't see much difference (and I worked in San Francisco during the
Finally, the beer. The wonderful beer. I've has some great American beer (Pyramid, Fat Tire, ESB) but in general I like Canadian better (Big Rock, Okanagen Springs, Grandville Island, etc).
Canada ain't so great (Score:1, Informative)
-People leave at 4:30pm and no one cares about their job.
-Expect a 7.5 hour workday (and get paid that way too).
-Expect to pay 50% marginal tax rate, PLUS 15% tax on everything you buy.
-Free pop? Forget it, feel privileged if you get free
-Bonuses? Ha! All the money is kept at the top, and little gets distributed to regular people.
-Merit increases? Ha! Think 2% a year.
-Expect to see a lot of idiots and assholes working alongside with you because firing people is very hard in Canada. It takes a lot of effort to actually get rid of someone, not like the US, where people can be fired.
-Christmas parties? Ha! I went to the US for a business trip, and the all-hands meetings for the company I was at had better food than our X-mas party
-Booze and such is a no-no because every company is so friggin politically correct that they don't want to be sued.
In the US, more people will care because at least there's a chance that they will become rich. In Canada, everyone is trained to give up at a young age and become corporate drones. In the US, at least there is opportunity, in Canada, there is nothing.
In Canada you will be taxed to death, the medicare system is worse than the typical HMO, and you will wait months for every treatment. Just ask my co-workers whose parents had to wait for cancer treatment and for ultrasounds for gallbladder stones.
Re:It's unfortunate that you're moving... (Score:3, Informative)
I'm currently in that situation. Unfortunately, it means I get to vote in NY, which is so overwhelmingly Democrat that my vote doesn't really count for anything. I wish I could pick a swing state.
Re:Well... (Score:5, Informative)
For most people, the government doesn't pay for most drugs, semi-private hospital rooms, physiotherapy, etc. This is where the employer usually contributes. Most companies operating in Canada offer some sort of enhanced health plan to their employees that covers such extras.
Yeah, we pay more taxes in Canada. And our schools are better, there's less crime, and our inner cities don't look like third-world conflict zones. Go figure.
As most posters have confirmed, the Canadian office environment is pretty much identical to the US... maybe a bit less hyperactive.
This is maybe the downside - the Canadian customer is less reactive to high-pressure sales. We're maddeningly slow to cut a deal, and often passive-aggressive when subjected to a high-pressure sales pitch. This drives US salespeople crazy.
Are you a citizen? (Score:5, Informative)
So its your fault! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:You make less (Score:4, Informative)
For example, if you are making $100k a year in San Francisco, you need to be making around $76K a year in Vancouver to have a similar standard of living.
Move to Regina, and you only need to make around $47K a year.
I think the most important distinction job-wise is that most Canucks I know work 45 hours or LESS a week. None of this 70-hour-a-week crap I hear about in the US.
For new Immigrants Canada is a tax haven for 5 yrs (Score:2, Informative)
I went the other way (Score:2, Informative)
I am a Canadian that after working a few years in Canada (Edmonton), I headed south. I liked what I was doing better in Canada, but the pay was bad. I think the market for programmers in Edmonton is flooded because there is a terrific (and large) university there but the industry in the town is mainly blue-collar.
More than half of what you make will got to taxes, but your benefits will cost significantly less, especially if you have dependents as health care is a public service. Also, as long as you stay out of Toronto and Vancouver, the cost of living is quite low. I rented a small two b/r appartment in downtown edmonton for $500 CAD (about $330 USD at the time) -- utilities included. That would be worth at least $600 USD in Rochester, MN.
Keep in mind that Canada is also regionally divided. Working in Toronto is a lot different from working in Edmonton, which is a lot different from working in Calgary. Choose the atmosphere you want to work in and select the appropriate city.
Edmonton: Laid back, mainly blue collar town, city driving is easy, cold and dry winters, cheap housing, low salary.
Calgary: not sure about atmosphere, mainly white collar town, driving not too bad but you will have to take public transportation if you work downtown, odd winter weather with snowstorms often followed by hot dry "chinook" winds, little more spendy on housing, decent salary
Vancouver: People don't go there for the money, they go for the lifestyle. Considered one of the top cities to live in in the world. Expensive housing, low salary, mild winters, good night life
Toronto: Stuck up coroporate culture, unions rule, evenin the white collar world. Expensive housing, frequent traffic jams, hot smoggy summers, great night life, streets are alive at all times.
Saskatoon: Conservative population, not sure about corporate culture, long cold dry winters, safe city, very low cost of living, not sure about salaries, considered a boring city, good place to raise children.
That's all the cities I can really speak about.
All in all, if you have children, I encourage you to move to Canada, there are good schools, it's quite safe, and the public services make raising a family a lot easier.
I'll be in the USA for a few more years, but I plan to head back eventually too. I am quite anxious about the $500B deficit that the US has because Canada used to have the problem and it took a lot of sacrfice to balance the budget and pay off that debt.
God save the queen,
- Thomas;
Re:Substantially Similar (Score:4, Informative)
It must be mentioned that the typical Canadian "conservative" doesn't carry all of the excess baggage that his American counterpart does.
There isn't much excitement over issues such as abortion rights, creation science, the dreaded evils of Marijuana, arguments over which is the one religion so true that it could be the state religion, or whether military might is a good way to spread "democracy" throughout the entire world!
In plain words, we are dull, boring but sensible!
Re:Office Parties in America (Score:3, Informative)
I do miss the
It probably depends mostly on the size of your company, it's legal/financial department and it's management.
Re:You make less (Score:1, Informative)
Sure, those premiums suck, but it's a trade off for not having a provincial sales tax. In Ontario, you get charged an extra 8% for everything, even used cars, which partially goes to pay for health care. That adds up to a lot more than the health care premium.
And the ambulance ride is, what, $50? Compare that to $1500 or more in random places in the US.
Besides, it's not a "free" system, it's paid for by taxes. Different provinces just collect those taxes in different ways.
Re:Don't Get Sick (Score:3, Informative)
Elsewhere someone posted that the figure was 7 million guns for 10 million households in Canada. According to this [ncjrs.org], there are as many guns in the US as *adults* (presumably there is more than one adult in most households). Even if the Canadian number should be 14 million guns (as suggested here [garrybreitkreuz.com]), this is still less than the number of adults (22 million according to this [statcan.ca]).
I would cite parallel statistics but didn't find them in my brief Google.Re:Well... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Speaking as a Canadian... (Score:1, Informative)
Not all corporations are the same. You might also look at smaller business where the relationship is more personalized. You tend to get much better treatment.
Not always 15% tax (Score:2, Informative)
Federal Tax: 7%, on *everything*.
Provincial Taxes: 7.5% in Quebec, 8% in Ontario. Maybe also in other provinces, I don't know. And this 7.5-8% tax is only on "commodities", stuff not really necessary to stay alive.
Harmonized tax: some maritime (eastern, like New Brunswick) provinces have an "harmonized" tax of 15% on *everything*. But maybe not on food, someone could explain more about it.
Books are taxed only 7%, same for food. Magazines and CDs get the prov. tax, though. But, as I work in publishing, I love the idea that books are free from provincial tax.
Climate Variability (Score:1, Informative)
But hey, the living's cheap.
Xbox wages and other differences. (Score:2, Informative)
Money:
I definitely make less than my counter parts in the USA. Here is a fictional breakdown that is somewhat representative of buddies (many) who left for the USA.
Location Me(Canada) Buddy (USA)
Gross pay 60K CDN 75K US
After Tax 40K CDN 56K US
Xbox price $200+15% 149+4%
Total XBs: 174 361
There you go. At the end of the day after tax you get paid more than double the amount of Xboxes to work in the USA.
Now onto some other differences:
Health care:
It has drastically declined in Canada. Anyone I know who has left in recent years feels they are much better served in the USA. You will wait 6months to get an MRI here. If you work for a company with decent benefits your care will be better in the USA.
Guns:
On a per capita basis, I remember hearing ownership is similar, but here it is more hunting rifles and less handguns. There is much less gun violence here, but it is constantly increasing espcially in Toronto.
Religion and Politics:
Unlike in the USA they hardly mix. Religion is much more low key in Canada. It is is a more socialist and secular society. Our most right wing political party is probably to the left of the Democrats in the USA.
That is my observation as a Canadian in hi-tech. Come here if you want a change to a more liberal and secular society. But you will have less money and your job will suck just as much.
Re:Differences can be regional (Score:1, Informative)
#2 would be Toronto. #3 is up for grabs, possibly Calgary or Vancouver. The market is pretty similar, except it costs less to live in Calgary, and the weather is a whole lot nicer in Vancouver (if you can stand the rain in the winter...)
If you want a sweet job, with good pay and a low cost of living, get a job at a telco in Saskatchewan or Manitoba. Just don't expect to find much to do in you off hours.
As an American in Canada... (Score:5, Informative)
My advice: if you find a good job in Canada with the atmosphere you seek, enjoy it while it lasts. I did. And since then I've moved on to a smaller Canadian company where I enjoy the relaxed culture still, sadly I just don't get paid as well for it.
As an aside, for an excellent resource on Canadian culture in general compared to the US, see Emily Way's An American's Guide to Canada [icomm.ca]. There is much useful info there.
*Disclaimer: For those who are anal about such things, yes, I generally refer to myself as an American, prefectly aware that there are many other countries upon the American continent. But having lived in three other countries apart from the US, I have found that by refering to yourself as a US citizen, estadounidense, or whatever else often tends to confuse people. Really, it does. Once they realize what you're saying, they invariably reply "oh, you're American". So after years of trying to buck the trend, I've given in to the pressure from residents of other countries, including Canada and Mexico, the two countries with the most right to be offended by such a moniker, and call myself an American.
Re:Two Words... (Score:1, Informative)
Tim Horton's in Columbus never did much for me, but I hear the Canadian ones are better.
A tough choice (Score:1, Informative)
I grew up in Alberta (Canada), worked a few years there, went to grad school in the US, and now live in the South. A decision to move to Canada has to be tempered by many factors relating to your personal situation.
The first is that Canada is small. Most Canadians will be wildly offended by this, but it doesn't change the facts. The entire country has a smaller economy than California or Texas. This impacts the corporate culture in a number of ways.
Firstly, to be a world-class corporation in Canada means focusing externally. The few world-beaters in Canada do most of their business outside of Canada--this gives them a much more international flavor. I work at an American company right now that is afraid to invest in Ontario because it's "foreign"; that attitude is much less prevalent in Corporate Canada. You move out, or you get taken over by an American firm.
This leads to the issue of the branch-plant economy. Those companies that are not world-class (the majority, of course) are either internally focused (and survive because of superior local market knowledge) or are owned by American parents. A case in point is Tim Horton's donuts, which exemplifies both scenarios: a Canadian chain with deep market roots that is owned by Wendy's. This means that the hard-driving, ambitious professional managers (some call them seagulls...) are less prevalent in the branch plants. The real action is in New York, so why hang out in Winnipeg?
To sum up: the Canadian corporate environment is characterized by less acrimony and politicking; places more of a premium on work-life balance; has lower (shockingly lower, in most cases) salaries; exports ambitious people to the "main plant" in the US; focuses on execution (as opposed to planning); and has highly educated people doing lower-level work (simply because the education level is quite high, but that may be my Alberta bias).
There are also a number of cultural issues. Many Canadians define themselves in opposition to Americans (you may have noticed that on a few of these comments). This leads to sometimes good outcomes, such as the three weeks vacation that you'll start with, and sometimes leads to bizarre outcomes, like the pervasive sense of entitlement that people living high on your tax money will have. In general, however, the two countries are far more similar than they are different. The differences stand out just because so much of your daily routine will be the same.
I support universal health care, by the way, but the Canadian system has so many holes that I'm concerned about my family's care in Canada. And, unlike any other good or service, you cannot spend your own hard-earned money to improve that, unless you fly down to the States for any emergencies.
In general, Canada is better for families. If you live in Alberta, you will not face significantly higher taxes than in the US. Quality of life is better in Canada. You will make less money. You will be rewarded less for performance. You will find it harder to find work (that short-term Canadian manager's mind-set at work). If you start your own business, or lose your job, or have your business outsourced, your health care will be paid for and you won't worry about your family. And you won't have George W. as your leader.
Re:French areas (Score:3, Informative)
Last time I checked the statistics, 20 out of the 25 most watched TV shows in Quebec were produced in Quebec. They have a far more thriving culture than the rest of Canada.
Re:Greatest difference: (Score:4, Informative)
What a ridiculous question ... (Score:1, Informative)
Canada is a gigantic country. To make any statements about climate, work conditions or lifestyle are impossible unless you narrow it down and state some of your preferences. We have places that NEVER see snow and places that see tons of snow and the wind will rip the flesh off your bones. Where you live and what you like to do makes a huge difference in how you perceive life to be.
As for work conditions, labour law is set, mostly, at the provincial level and so it varies some from province to province, just like it varies from state to state in the USA. Currently, Alberta and Ontario are pretty business friendly (read: worker unfriendly), but the remaining provinces are governed by much more left leaning governments.
There is a huge difference in cost of living, depending upon where you set up, with Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver being very expensive to live in. The prairie cities (Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Winnipeg) are cheaper and the Maritime cities (Halifax, Fredricton, Charlottetown) being the least expensive. Of course, IT jobs will be in the first three cities, mostly, so expect to pony up some dough for basic expenses. It is literally twice as expensive to live in Vancouver, for example, as it is to live in Edmonton where I am located.
As for attitude
The overall tax rate isn't appreciably different than the US when you factor in the exchange and what you get for those taxes. Remember that you pay for health insurance separately in the US and if you want a fair comparison for tax rates, add your bill for that onto your taxes you pay in the US when comparing to Canada because it is included here. The sheer number of services that are included in Canada that are NOT in the US is pretty staggering.
Health Care, contrary to public opinion, is NOT worse in Canada. It is very similar and on a per capita basis, costs less than equivalent service in the States.
The streets, even in Toronto, are safer than pretty much every major US city, including places like Spokane and St. Paul
The unemployment rate is higher, but when you adjust for the fact that a greater percentage of US jobs are now 24 hrs than in Canada, the rates pretty much end up the same.
Pay is similar, but in CAD instead of USD, of course. Corporatism is rife here, too, though, and so coming to Canada will lean you slightly more left than in the US, but not terrifically.
Canadian bacon is called... (Score:5, Informative)
One thing to note is that like Chinese food served in North America, "Canadian Bacon" as served in the US is a pale and inaccurate imitation of the real thing--it is NOT seasoned nor cured the way it actually is in Canada. It's like calling corned beef Montreal Smoked Meat (they're different and it's always disappointing when the former is pawned off as the latter).
If you like the real thing but can't find it in the US, try ordering it from this site [realcanadianbacon.com].
Anyways, to keep this post on-topic, I'd say that "corporate Canada" and "corporate America" are pretty much like "US style Canadian Bacon" and peameal/backbacon--quite similar in general but when you look further you notice differences. Among them:
* The "competitive drive" is not as pronounced in Canada. Americans seem to place more importance on climbing the ladder, job titles and so on. Canadians strive to move up, but it doesn't seem the emphasis on being "VP" or "Regional Manager". We don't care what our title is so long as we are fairly compensated.
* Canadian business seems more fixated on process and bureaucracy. My employer is a global corporation, and even within the same company there is more paperwork and business processes seem more combersome than in our American offices.
* Be prepared for a shock when you see your first paycheque. The income tax, CPP (pension) and EI (employment insurance) deductions will take a bigger chunk of your earnings than you are used to. That and your salary will be a bit smaller to start with (don't worry, it's in Canadian dollars so it won't APPEAR to be significantly less). Overall the tax take is higher but it is taken in bigger chunks. In the US, you have federal, state, municipal taxes, health insurance, this fee, that fee, etc. US government nickels and dimes. In Canada they clobber you in the head and take your money all at ones, more or less (except for the GST).
* Cost of living is cheaper in Canada overall--Houses cost a bit less, medicare is cheaper, food is a bit cheaper, broadband internet access and cable TV are significantly cheaper (for you slashdotters out there). Makes up for the insanely high gasoline prices.
There's more but you get the idea...kind of a parallel universe really...
Wrong. (Score:5, Informative)
Wrong.
The US Census Bureau (on behalf of the Bureau of Labor Statistics) determines the unemployment rate using a survey called the Current Population Survey (CPS [bls.gov]). The definition of unemployed is:
1) Not currently employed.
2) Available to get a job.
3) Actively looked for work in the last 4 weeks.
There is nothing about unemployment benefits in here at all. This definition of unemployment is used around the world including Canada, Mexico, Australia, Japan, and all of the countries in the European Economic Community. Therefore, these numbers are also good for international comparisons.
During my college days, I worked as a surveyor for the USCB at the Tucson Telephone Center. I lived and breathed the CPS for a full week every month as we tried to get through our share of 50,000 surveys. A lot of fun, lemme tell ya.
The real scoop (Score:3, Informative)
A key thing to keep in mind is your political stripe - if you are centrist here in the US, you are right wing in Canada. If you are right wing here, you will go nuts in Canada.
Generally, people are more pleasant in Canada in day to day life, however, when you are in need, Americans are more likely to reach out a helping hand because they haven't been conditioned to think its the government's job to take care of you.
Canadians are far more risk averse when it comes to business and that impacts every part of corporate life (both in good ways and bad).
Assuming you get the same $ salary, thecost of living is about the same or cheaper on soft goods and services (e.g. food, dry cleaning) but way more expensive on imported hard goods (e.g. playstation games, cars...the average car here is an upper class luxury in Canada). This difference is due to exchange rates exclusively. Some times the importers charge a bit lower in Canada because nobody could afford it otherwise.
Get used to paying about 15% sales tax on EVERYTHING (goods and services...except in Alberta).
Get used to working for branch offices of American companies where decisions are always made outside of your Canadian division. You are far less likely to be working for a division that creates products - more likely to be working for a sales, support, service organization.
Health care is generally better in Canada for day to day office visits for the average person. However, if you need to see a specialist or need high end diagnostics, prepare to wait months to a year. Everyone beats their chests about how health care is so much better in Canada (it is one of the only things they can think of defining them, after all) but in my experience both systems average out about the same - they are both facing rapidly increasing costs in the face of relatively infinite demand and have two different systems for rationing the service. If you look closely, the two systems are coming closer together out of necessity.
Good luck!
Re:Meet the new boss (Score:5, Informative)
I have to strongly disagree with this (as an American that's been living and working in Germany for the last two years).
I can see how one could draw this conclusion after a few weeks in said places, but the gap between American and German work environments may be subtle, but it's very significant.
Canada. (Score:1, Informative)
so now from your 21k - 9k... you have 12k to live on.
Almost all prices in canada dollar for dollar are about the same as the us + 15% (not equiv to the exchange dont ask me why)
So before coming up here ask yourself can you live on 12k a year. (a decent car still costs 30something)
Just as a note I live in canada, but I work telecommuted in the US.
One other lil canadian fact. Employers are so out of touch with what their jobs need and have so much skilled labour that you need a masters degree and five years experience to make 40k. Pretty dumb eh.
I dont know any 'well-off' IT industry workers who work within canada. Anyone living particularily well seems to contract out to the us or work directly for a company that does.
Its the big reason why you wont see sites like amazon.ca selling the same materials as amazon.com does.
Even with the us economic climate what it is... Stay there, you're really better off.
Only reason to come to canada is for the scenery and people. More appropriate as a vacation destination.
A canadian-us outsourcer
Peameal and Backbacon are not the same (Score:3, Informative)
Peameal bacon is rolled in corn meal and tends to be somewhat saltier. The corn meal rim gets crisped when the rim of fat fries, adding a texture component to the flavour.
Backbacon is usually less salty, sometimes more smokey, and has no corn meal.
Both are made using pork tenderloin, so they're very low fat, more like a mini ham steak than greasy side-pork bacon.
Re:One nice thing about working in Canada... (Score:3, Informative)
Never heard of domestic terrorism? Does the name "Timothy McVeigh" not ring a bell? If they intentionally target civillians then they're terrorists, reguardless of where they're from or what their stated goals.
"The closest analogy would be to the American Civil War if anything."
For the most part the rebels shot at (and getting shot at by) uniformed federal soldiers instead of, say, kidnapping and murdering members of the civillian government. [wikipedia.org]
Re:Speaking as a Canadian... (Score:5, Informative)
I've always been of the opinion that there are more guns in a major US city (say New York or LA) than there are in all of Canada.
Re:Canadas not So Bad,.... (Score:5, Informative)
Positive Stuff: The cost of life is ridiculously low . Beautiful city . Great nightlife. Good international restaurants. Friendly population who come from many parts of the world. Low crime rate;You feel safe almost everywhere at any time in this city (I said almost OK)
Negative Stuff: Pay checks for IT are smaller than elsewhere (but in some case what you save with the cost of life can easily compensate) Lot of taxes Maybe more difficult to get a job in IT.
I saw a couple of time ago a documentary about the profile of 6 Americans who decided to come to live to Quebec. There was a reporter, a writer, an engineer, a lawyer, an architect and I.T. guy. I will tell you their words not mines. All where saying basically the same thing. Maybe less money but you can do more with what you have. You have much more support from the government in case something bad happens to you.
One of them said one insightful sentence: USA really like is winner and take care of them but if thinks start to go wrong you are on your own and the USA system is really hard on losers.
Work in U.S., live in Canada (Score:5, Informative)
- There is definitely more career opportunity in the U.S. It also seems easier to shine (not just *my* opinion), probably because with such a vast economy, there is plenty of opportunity to hire some real duds.
- You'll almost definitely make more money in the U.S. I enjoy the best of both worlds, paid in U.S. dollars, yet live in lower-cost Canada. Taxes are higher in Canada, but housing, utilities and food is somewhat lower.
- U.S. medical coverage is wonderful, as long as you have insurance. The Canadian system is actually quite good, except for certain types of procedures where there are unacceptably long waits. (I love having medical coverage in both countries.) Yes you pay for the Canadian system in terms of taxes, but don't lose sight of all the co-pays and hidden fees that come with most U.S. insurance programs. A coworker of mine recently had an extended stay in a U.S. hospital, and all those little fees added up to over $1000 USD.
- Culturally, I notice a few small differences in general, but most of the people I work with in the U.S. are wonderful, equally nice as the folks I've worked with in Canada. Canadians in general seem to be a bit more polite (seems hard to get a "you're welcome" out of many Americans), and Americans are definitely more confident and aggressive (which probabaly explains their business success). But most of the stereotypes mentioned here are just wrong in my opinion.
Work in Canada or the U.S.? It's really a matter of personal taste. You can't lose, as long as you work hard and find a nice place to work, I think you'll live very comfortably in either country.
By the way - those who said it's difficult to work in Canada are wrong. Computer folks under NAFTA have plenty of ways to obtain employment in either country.
-Steve-
Re:Canadas not So Bad,.... (Score:2, Informative)
Fin du Monde! Great beer. (sigh)
IT-wise, Winnipeg is a very, very closed shop... All the entry-level jobs are Tier 1 help desk. There was major IT overtraining here from '96-'00, much of it sponsored by government retraining programs.
One of my classmates described himself as an "MCSE Janitor." And my former employer, an IT training centre, crashed and burned.
It's virtually impossible to get a sysadmin position here. I found one, but I had four years work experience and some database programming and really strong hardware skills and a teaching background and 20 years of office experience. And even then, the odds against me were 150:1.
The advertised positions generally ask for everything *including* the kitchen sink: "Well, we'd like to see an MCSE, CNE, some Java, two years of project management... And while you're at it can you help us port all our old COBOL from the IBM/360 to that Linux box over there?"
And we have a saying here: "If you don't like the weather, wait a minute." Went from +23C to four inches of snow in two days.
(Oh, yes... We Canadians will also confuse the hell out of you by shifting from Imperial to Metric at the drop of a tuque.)
It's not simple language issue (Score:1, Informative)
There are a lot of costs that come into play because of having an official second language.
All software sold to the government and most industry must be NLS enabled just to deal with the language requirements. While it makes it easier to support other language and regional translations, it does add a fair bit to the coding efforts compared to english-only business programming.
The non-french majority tends to get a touch annoyed at the seperate schools, seperate classes, etc. that are funded out of the general district pool. With such a low population percentage, there tends to be a much higher cost per student for the french programs, and much lower student-teacher ratios. With our crushing tax burden, people get right ticked about such wasteful spending, especially when it means cutbacks for the majority of students to fund the minority.
Add in to that federal employment requirements that you must speak french, and people around here are starting to get pretty pissed off. Unemployment is rather high in the west, but the federal government is paying to move Quebecois new hires to fill federal positions out here, rather than hiring some of the unemployed locals.
The final insult is the outrageous salary levels federal union employees receive compared to most local jobs. Compared to standard compensation packages, federal employment is platinum plated, but it's off limits to the majority of Canadians.
In compensation for all the expense and special treatment, english-speaking Canadians get to enjoy having their own right to communicate officially trampled by the Quebec language laws. There have been dozens upon dozens of nazi-jackboot demands by the language police.
In other words, you only have rights if you're from Quebec. The rest of us are screwed because the English decided to sign a treaty instead of wiping out the last shreds of resistance a few centuries ago.
You can copy a friend's cds in the US (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not sure what this means about copying a CD someone else bought to a tape, but copying a CD for a friend using digital audio equipment and audio cds is perfectly legal, and copying an audio tape to another audio tape is also legal. We pay a "tax" to the RIAA on every piece of digital audio equipment, audio CD, and audio tape to allow this per The Audio Home Recording Act of 1992.
Re:I live in Canada (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not sure how property taxes compare, but in Canada you can't deduct your mortgage payments from income tax like you can in the U.S., so houses are effectively more expensive (and Canadians have more incentive to pay off their mortgages). On the other hand, some say that houses in the U.S. are just proportionally more expensive than Canadian houses because Americans effectively have more purchasing power when it comes to home ownership.
Re:Speaking as a Canadian... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Canada's not So Bad,.... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I live in Canada (Score:2, Informative)
While income taxes sound higher than in the US, they can be much reduced by investing in a retirement savings plan, and the cost of living is much lower. I won't ask what your condo was worth, but mortgage payments on a starter home in many smaller cities wouldn't be much more than you were paying in taxes.
Re:No Rep. BS needed, your health care system suck (Score:3, Informative)
Our own government admits that Canadians have better health hopes than Americans:
America:
Death rate:
8.44 deaths/1,000 population (2003 est.)
Infant mortality rate:
total: 6.75 deaths/1,000 live births
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 77.14 years
Canada:
Death rate:
7.61 deaths/1,000 population (2003 est.)
Infant mortality rate:
total: 4.88 deaths/1,000 live births
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 79.83 years
They manage to beat us at every reasonably meaningful measurement of health and longevity, and they do it without privatization!
Though they don't leave more money in *your* pocket; and therefore, as a strategy of national interest, it fails.
Note: the above numbers are not isolated to well-off conservatives.
Re:Labour Laws (Score:3, Informative)
It is illegal to fire someone in a nasty or humiliating way and it was recently ruled that forcing the employees to train their (foreign outsourced) replacements counted as such.
And no, I don't have a citation handy. I learned this by talking to my cousin the labour lawyer. (What? Hearsay? On Slashdot? Never!)
The Canadian federal government has virtually no authority to regulate employment relationships outside a few industries
Ahem [justice.gc.ca]. Cough cough [justice.gc.ca].