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The Almighty Buck The Internet

Dealing w/ Online Fraudulent Sellers? 61

Posted by Cliff from the getting-what-you-paid-for-or-your-money-back dept.
Nicholas French asks: "I have recently made a couple of online purchases, one was an Ancient Bronze Amlash ring from The Antiquities Company which cost me *cough* 'a lot of money' and was backed up by a 'guarantee of authenticity'. The other was a second hand Book Crowds & Power, via the Amazon Marketplace, which I have not even received regardless of the numerous emails sent to both the seller and Amazon. I have since taken delivery of the ring and had its metal composition tested...turns out it is actually brass, and not exactly Ancient either! When I approached the seller via email, quoting my money back 'guarantee of authenticity' I was told politely to take a hike. I am considering speaking to Trading standards but am not really sure where to start, so have added myself to the growing numbers of reported Fraud victims on Fraud.Org. Have any other Slashdot readers managed to retrieve their hard earned cash from these Fraudsters, or had any similar problems with large online's such as Amazon?"
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Dealing w/ Online Fraudulent Sellers? More

Dealing w/ Online Fraudulent Sellers?

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  • My solution - Russian mafia (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    reasonable rates (generally percentage off the money required to get back)

    discounts for regular customers

    free educational seminar on bad nature of fraud conducted by instructors in leather jackets with baseball bats

    boosting scammer's local economy by increasing his medical bills

  • Chargeback (Score:5, Informative)

    by stanmann ( 602645 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @01:53PM (#9153936) Journal
    YOu did use your credit card RIGHT? Well then go through them and their fraud department. Very likely to be successful.
    • No! You have to go to the mailing address where you sent the money and deliver a few "lashings of the old ultraviolence" [imdb.com]
    • Yes, a credit card is the absolute best (a debit card will do, too), as long as you have a valid reason to state the product is not what you expected (so take screen captures of their guarantees and save any e-mails, you can attach these to the affidavit the bank/cc company will be requesting from you.) This is because the merchant can be tracked down by their Visa/Mastercard merchant id. The difference between debit and credit is that credit cards have to give you the provisional (temporary) credit for the

      • Using a credit card for on-line purchases is a smart move in many places, but how smart depends on your local law.

        In the UK, AAIU, consumer credit law basically says that the credit card company is jointly and severally liable with the seller if things go wrong (if the seller goes under, for example). Hence you can take the same legal action against the credit card company as you can against the seller to recover your losses.

        NB: There are certain restrictions on this UK situation, which you'd have to ch

  • Chargeback (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Aoverify ( 566411 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @01:55PM (#9153981) Homepage
    Did you pay with your credit card?

    If so, contact your credit card company to initiate a chargeback. For items that you haven't received, you should just have to fill out a form. If the item wasn't as described, you will have to return the item to the seller via insured shipping w/ tracking and indicate the tracking info on the form.

    Different credit card companies have different policies, but most of them should be willing to help you out.

  • obvious (Score:5, Funny)

    by doug ( 926 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @01:57PM (#9154005)
    Mention them on slashdot and hope that they get slashdotted. If they have a crappy ISP then that should bring down the website for a while. While this won't get you your money back, you'll have the satisfaction of causing them headaches, and that's worth something, isn't it?

    - doug

  • well....? (Score:4, Funny)

    by croddy ( 659025 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @02:00PM (#9154057)
    what did you think would happen, lusting after the ancient Ring?

  • That's rough (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Otter ( 3800 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @02:02PM (#9154089) Journal
    Yeah, I had similar troubles -- you can bet I gave looter@museum.gov.iq some nasty feedback!

    Honestly, my experiences with customer service at Amazon have been extremely helpful, although follow-through has been spotty. There's no question that you should be protected by their guarantee, though. You don't explain what their response was -- are they refusing to honor it?

    As far as the other company goes, it sounds like straight-up fraud -- go to the relevant law enforcement people and, in the future, avoid vendors with names like "The Honourable Company". And *always* use a credit card!

    • Re:That's rough (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Strange Ranger ( 454494 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @02:40PM (#9154710)
      With no brick and mortar address, and this: antiquities@websitecompany.co.uk [mailto] as their contact address, the Honourable Company site does look quite suspicious. Not to mention selling thousand year old museum pieces for the price of department store "costume" jewelry.

      Also, when THIS [google.com] gives you only 8 results, only 1 of them relevant, you KNOW something is up. Nobody has anything to say about these people at all?

      With results like that I'm sure you could build a page and get it ranked so that they would loose a ton of business. No matter though I'm sure they're chameleons and would just change the name and site.

      A Good Company often has a page [pugetsystems.com] dealing with secure shopping.

  • More ring online fraud possibilities. (Score:4, Funny)

    by AtariAmarok ( 451306 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @02:05PM (#9154139)
    eBay right now has around 30 One Ring, 100% authentic [ebay.com]. Nah, I'm not going to be the one that actually believes that all of these are the unique One Ring that turns you invisible. They'll make $5.95 ($11.95 "buy it now") vanish, however! I've even seen eBay entries for "One Ring" that "really works".

  • Escrow & Chargebacks (Score:3, Informative)

    by crstophr ( 529410 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @02:05PM (#9154148) Homepage
    Use your credit card for small purchases, make sure it has some kind of fraud protection. If you get ripped off, just do a chargeback.

    If it is a large purchase, seek out one of the internet's escrow companies. They are used all the time in these matters. You can even have them independantly verify the authenticity of your purchase before money is actually transferred.

    Good luck.

    --Chris

  • Yeah I know, I suck. (Score:5, Funny)

    by JAD lifter ( 778578 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @02:10PM (#9154223)
    As much as I hate to admit it I purchased an imaginary girlfriend from imaginarygirlfriends.com. They charged my credit card about $45.00 and then I never heard from them. I started sending them emails but they never bothered to reply to my emails. Eventually, after about two weeks, I contacted the company who handles their credit card transactions and I filed a complaint with them. Still nothing happened. I again mailed the company that handles their credit transactions, this time an angry email accusing imaginarygirlfriends.com of being a scam and stealing my money. Within a few hours I got an email back from them saying the issue was resolved and that I would be getting a refund and an apology from imaginarygirlfriends.com.

    It is not bad enough that I am so low and pathetic that I would think of using a service like imaginarygirlfriends.com but then they go and just take my money and make me look like a bigger loser. Of course in the end I did get my money back but only after weeks had passed and many unanswered emails had been sent.
    • wtf is imaginarygirlfriends.com, i have to check this out.
      .

      OH... MY... GOD..
      yes, you pay girls (through them.. they're kind of a 'clean pimp') to pretend to be your (presumably long distance) girlfriend.

      excuse me while i go outside and keel over laughing. not at you, but that this really exists. (or have i been had?). someone pinch me, this can't be real. (and no, not because it's what i've been looking for :p). i don't even know where to start with this. thanks for the heads up.

      oh the embarrasment

    • Perhaps you accidently bid on imaginaryconman, instead of imaginarygirlfriend.

      But the reality is that you did get your imaginary girlfriend. You just have a very poor imagination.

      -Adam
    • It isn't hard to get a real girlfriend. Just go up to them and talk. You'll fail a few times before you score. That's life.

      I just checked out that website.. Hiring a "girlfriend" is like paying a girl for a lapdance and not seeing titties..

      There are plenty of girls out there who want a boyfriend too.
      • It isn't hard to get a real girlfriend. Just go up to them and talk. You'll fail a few times before you score. That's life.

        What you say is totally true for the average guy. But what you seem to fail to realize is that there is a very small percentage of us guys who have 0% chance of getting a GF.

        Why? I don't know. Hell, I went to college and got a degree, I have a good job. I eat healthier than most people I know and I work out at least three times a week. I am honest, ethical, clean, polite. Most eve
        • That tinge of desperation could have something to do with it.

          Relax. Girls are people, too. Just make some friends and enjoy their company. Don't worry about marking this one or that one as "girlfriend" material.
        • dude you sound like Ned Flanders

          • dude you sound like Ned Flanders

            Well, I was trying to go out of my way to keep from sounding like some kind of psychopath as then people would be all like "No wonder chicks don't dig you, yer fucked up dude!" In reality I am a pretty screwed up guy. But I don't think that most girls I meet know that, I mean, I keep that side of my personality pretty private and all. Really.

            In other news. I've been scouring the P2P sites all day looking for the crazy sex videos involving Pfc. Lynndie England at the A
    • Hey buddy, seems like you had an imaginary girlfriend. Takes your money, kind of moody, never does what you want, leaves you unsatisfied...
    • Don't feel too bad - that's how my real girlfriend treats me also.
    • Just my curiousity, but which girl did you pick? It's like a cute Japanese dating sim... except creepy, kinda.
  • Never buy anything from a page that has annoying music on it. Very bad sign. Also, on the front page there's a link to an RV sales site. Another really bad sign. The clues were all there, so caveat emptor.
  • It's a bit hard to find, but you can file a claim here [amazon.com] if you get stiffed by an Amazon Marketplace seller, and Amazon will refund your money. I've used it once in the past with no problems.

  • Scamming the Scammer (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MBoffin ( 259181 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @02:27PM (#9154505) Homepage
    But what about the other direction? One guy found out he was getting scammed by a buyer and so instead of selling him a Powerbook, he sold him a P-P-P-Powerbook [p-p-p-powerbook.com]. :) Gotta love it.

    • Re:Scamming the Scammer (Score:4, Insightful)

      by PurpleFloyd ( 149812 ) <zeno20NO@SPAMattbi.com> on Friday May 14, 2004 @02:55PM (#9154918) Homepage
      Why? I admit that page gave me one hell of a chuckle, but it seems that whoever sold the fake "powerbook" is now themselves a scammer.

      While there are no details on the site, I'd imagine that it was one of the scams all too common on Ebay and the like these days - I'll send you a (fraudulent) cashiers check for $500 over the item's cost, and you send me $500 cash along with the item; when the check bounces, the seller is left liable for the money and has sent an item out for free as well. Of course, this is a despicable action on the buyer's part, but the seller has no evidence of a crime until he or she is sent a fraudlent cashier's check.

      All they have to go on is the suspicion a crime will be commited in the near future. Thus, the legal and ethical thing to do would be to either refuse the transaction, or take the check and wait for it to clear (note: that usually takes several days at minimum after you get the money in your bank account). After the check failed to clear, of course, you could feel free to send whatever you liked; it would be a "gift" and the buyer simply would not have paid for the item they bid on. In addition, the police and bank would probably be quite interested in a fraudulent cashier's check and (now proven) scam artist.

      The point? In fighting with monsters, take care not to become one yourself. For all you know, the deal was legitimate and you just took some poor bastard's money and sent him $5 worth of crap. If you are worried about a scam, the proper thing to do is to simply back out of the transaction and report it to the proper authorities, not to try to defraud the scammer yourself. While vigilante justice is tempting (and probably justified in this case, if my assumptions are correct), it has a way of eventually encompassing the innocent as well. After all, it would be only too easy for scammers to take others' money and send them nothing if this became commonplace - all they would have to do is argue that "I thought it was a scam, honest!"

      • I got the link from this Metafilter post [metafilter.com]. It has more info about the situation.
      • Nope. It was a fake-escrow transation not a fake-cashier's-check transaction.

        • Re:Scamming the Scammer (Score:4, Insightful)

          by PurpleFloyd ( 149812 ) <zeno20NO@SPAMattbi.com> on Friday May 14, 2004 @03:52PM (#9155713) Homepage
          After following the links provided above, I see that to be the case. However, the principle remains the same: if you feel like something might be a scam, then just don't go through with it. For all we know, the buyer might have simply chosen an escrow service without examining them closely; definately a Really Bad Idea, but one that would fall under stupidity rather than theft or malicious intent. If you feel the buyer and the escrow service are working to rip you off, then email the buyer and tell him or her that you are worried about the escrow service and you've had good experience with [reputable escrow agent] in the past.

          Don't simply assume the buyer is ripping you off because the escrow agent fakes a Verisign cert - if the buyer is willing to change to a different service, do so; otherwise, simply tell them you don't trust that escrow agent and you won't go through with the transaction if they don't switch. All I see in the PDF is one passing mention of "[D]o you know if the site has a strong digital defense?" That's probably not the best way to let the buyer know you don't trust the escrow service. Instead, come forth with solid reasons (i.e. they fake their cert) instead of one nebulous question.

          Reading the account posted at SA, I think the chances are probably about 75% in favor of the buyer's being a scammer. Good odds, no doubt about that. Still, do you want to take the risk of sticking someone innocent with several hundred pounds in customs and shipping fees? To me, this is a clear case of vigilante "justice" overstepping its bounds. If you are worried about a scam, tell the other party and simply refuse the transaction if they continue to act suspicious. Don't try to "scam the scammer" when you might just be scamming an innocent person instead.

    • It's anticlimactic. 28 pages of text and there is no ending.
  • Due to the extreme payrises recently for The Simpsons voiceover talent, they have had to let go the guy that did the fat superhero/trek worshipping role. My suggestion is to curse the guy who sold you the Absolutely Genuine Authentic Object You Want Thing - curse him in Klingon, I say, and move on in your life, move forward to a New You that does not need painful weights[1] to increase your Manhood extents, and audition as the New Trek Guy in the Simpsons- you ARE the new trek guy, no stop YOU MAKE ME CRY!

  • Credit cards vs. other options (Score:5, Informative)

    by ezraekman ( 650090 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @02:34PM (#9154625) Homepage

    This is precisely why I'll only use a credit card.

    Banks and credit card (at least, all of those that I've dealt with) seem to take a very dim view of fraud. I've NEVER had a problem filing a dispute, and getting my money back. I've had unauthorized charges, defective products/equipment that the vendor would not accept for a return, items that failed to live up to their description, and services offered and paid for that were not adequately provided. In every one of these instances, I've been able to successfully get my money back.

    Don't pay via any other method than a credit card. Don't use a check; it's notoriously difficult to get money back in the case of check fraud. Using a postal money order depends on your ability to both A) find the seller and B) find someone at the post office who's interested in following it up. DO NOT use a service like Western Union; this is one of the easiest ways for sellers to get your money and just disappear.

    Paypal is something of a toss-up. I've asked my bank, and they said that they had no problem disputing a charge with Paypal if an item was sold fraudulently. I have not needed to test this yet, but here are my concerns: First, Paypal may claim that my agreement is with them and not the seller, and that they have fulfilled their part of the bargain: to deliver my money to the seller. I don't know how well that argument would hold up, but I don't relish the idea of having to argue it. I think I'd win, but it woudn't be fun. Second, Paypal may just choose to write off the loss, and send my account to a collection agency, again citing their responsibilities, and the terms and conditions they list on their site. Collection agencies are MUCH harder to argue with, and legally, Paypal may very well be correct. In general, I only use Paypal for items with a relatively small value/selling price.

    In just about any instance, using a credit card is better at protecting your interests. There are no guarantees, but here's how the Visa system works:

    Buyer gives Seller their credit card. Seller runs the card through Processor. (Whomever is processing their charges for them) This can be a bank or a third-party processor, but usually it's the latter, unless it's a larger company with their own merchant account with a financial institution. Third-party processors are usually a cheaper option for companies or sellers with lower sales numbers. Anyway, Seller gives Processor Buyer's credit card info. Processor runs the card through the Visa system and if it returns an authorization, either immediately deposits the money into Seller's account, or sends them a biweekly/monthly check, depending on their agreement. The Visa system does a test with Buyer's credit card backer (their bank, CC company, etc.) to make sure the funds are available. This is not actually a charge; it's called an "authorization", and will drop off in a few days to a week. The actual charge (called a "posted" charge) comes through anywhere from the same day to a few weeks later, though usually it takes 2-3 days, and again must be initiated by Seller's financial institution, though this is usually automatic.

    For a dispute, Buyer's financial institution tells Visa International that the charge was fraudulent, or services were not provided, or whatever. Visa goes to Seller's financial institution and asks for proof that the charge was legit, and Seller's financial institution forwards this request to Seller. This is often quite difficult for Seller, if they do not have your signature. That's the reason most companies require so much verification over the phone/web. If Seller cannot demonstrate that they have provided all products/services promised, the charge is reversed. This is called a "chargeback", and usually costs Seller's financial institution (and thus, Seller), a fee. Most sellers would rather just process the return than get a chargeback, both because of the fee and because it's a black mark on their record. I'm not sure who

  • Don't be an idiot (Score:5, Insightful)

    by alienw ( 585907 ) <alienw.slashdotNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday May 14, 2004 @02:37PM (#9154678)
    If you purchased something from that website, you simply deserve to be ripped off. Note the following:
    - It is extremely poorly designed for a website that sells expensive things. The spelling/grammar is screwed up in a few places.
    - There is no contact information, no street address, and it's hard to even tell what country they are in.
    - They accept Paypal instead of having a normal credit card processor
    - They try to sell you vacations and such
    - There is no policy page. Nothing is mentioned about returns. Nothing about the authenticity policy is in writing.
    - There are many links to suspicious websites

    Basically, a web store that looks like this is an obvious scam. And chances are, if it looks like a scam, it probably is.
    • how many of these does a website have to have to be considered fishy? i found this [slashdot.org] site that:

      - spelling/grammar is screwed up in a few places.

      - There are many links to suspicious websites
      • You've proved the grandparents point for him, /. is about as much a reliable news source as that other site seems to be a reliable source for Ancient Bronze Amlash rings.
    • - There is no contact information, no street address, and it's hard to even tell what country they are in.

      Click "contact us" and read: 3 Coventry Road, Bulkington, Bedworth, Warks. CV12 9LY United Kingdom.

      - They accept Paypal instead of having a normal credit card processor

      Actually, they accept PayPal in addition to a normal credit card processor.

      But your point does stand -- it does look dodgy.

      The bit that caught my eye was, "We have no current outstanding complaints." It would appear that they hav
    • I totally agree. That's not even a good scam. What makes you think they'd have 3000 year old rings?

  • Check Amazon's marketplace policy (Score:4, Informative)

    by xanderwilson ( 662093 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @02:59PM (#9154969) Homepage
    I think you need to wait 30 days and then you can file a claim with Amazon within the next 30. They'll try to resolve it with the seller, and it it doesn't work out, they'll give you your money back. I ordered a book which never arrived; no response to emails. And got a refund no questions asked. Ebay doesn't have that kind of policy AFAIK.

    Alex.
  • If you find a site that looks shady and you want to buy something, do a google for the site name and scam. Do this for other things too -- I managed to find out a real estate conference I was looking to attend was little more then a scam doing this. Besides that, if you don't do your due dilligence, make sure to trade on reputable sites, or sites which don't have protection (i.e. ebay offers you protection for some $$$), you deserve what you get.
  • I used to buy some stuff on pricewatch.com a few years ago. They were a really good site for scanning low prices from online stores--similar to what bizrate does. Recently, though, I looked at some stuff on there, and they totally do not police their sellers. There is a policy statement that they will ban sellers that are fraudulent, but check the comments on some of them. There are many of their merchants (obviously the ones with the lowest prices so they get listed first) who have about equal numbers
  • The postal address is:
    3 Coventry Road,
    Bulkington,
    Bedworth,
    Warks.
    CV12 9LY
    United Kingdom

    So your best bet, if you can't claim through your credit card, is to contact Warwickshire Trading Standards [warwickshire.gov.uk].

  • There was an article last summer, in a magazine called fastcompany, about a postal inspector who was specializing in busting ebay fraudsters. That web-page, http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/73/kirsner.htm l, does not seem to be online right now. It described various dirty tricks crooked ebayers use. If Fast Company magazine has gone out of business it would be worth going to the library to read this article, which was entitled, "catch me if you can".

    • Re:Your postal inspector is your friend (Score:4, Interesting)

      by geoswan ( 316494 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @10:02PM (#9164498) Journal
      Oh, the fastcompany article, "Catch me if you can" [fastcompany.com], is available again.
      ...the U.S. Postal Inspection Service, which is responsible for investigating most online-auction scams...

      Higgins, 45, has worked for the U.S. Postal Service since he was in college, when he took a job as a letter carrier in the town of Andover, Massachusetts, north of Boston. He had always wanted to be a federal agent -- maybe in the Secret Service or the FBI -- but the path to becoming a postal inspector seemed a little clearer. Despite the dweeby title, postal inspectors are indeed feds: Higgins packs a 9-millimeter Beretta Centurion whenever he leaves the office. "We're not as well-known as the FBI," shrugs Higgins. "That doesn't bother me." He has a low-key personality, a spiky gray brush cut with a shock of white in front, and a reputation around the office as a tenacious investigator.

  • http://complaints.bbb.org/Welcome.asp

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