Higher Education for Mentally Handicapped? 86
Anonymous Coward asks: "I am an autistic high-schooler, who is currently in special education. I am very bright, but I lack the ability to do even very basic math. I am interested in Technology and Computers very much, but after looking at the requirements for a computer science major, there is no way I can do all that. What options, other than college, are available for a good education?"
Get a book. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Get a book. (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it isn't. But it sure opens a lot of doors a lot easier.
The annoying part is that I expect them - on the day that I graduate - to say:
"Here is your diploma/degree, Now you can start learning the things you need to know, and should be able to do."
The horrible part is, that I tend to agree with that. But I sure want that piece of paper. It's a ticket in, and for some things the only ticket there is.
Oh, if you really like to do something. Of if you want to make a profession out of your hobby. Then don't. After 4 years of learning, most people end up either disliking or hating the thing they loved to do.
Re:Get a book. (Score:2, Interesting)
Oh, if you really like to do something. Of if you want to make a profession out of your hobby. Then don't. After 4 years of learning, most people end up either disliking or hating the thing they loved to do.
I know that story too well. I really loved comp sci. Even after just two years, I hate it. I'm leaving university after three years of undergrad. It's just not fun any more. I must find new challenges.
Re:Get a book. (Score:5, Insightful)
Daniel
Re:Get a book. (Score:2)
Sure people want to know you'll stick with something for 10 years, but the likelyhood that the employer will live up the THEIR end of the bargain (by promising you employment for 10 years) is next to nil... they
Re:Get a book. (Score:1, Insightful)
That's not the point. We're talking about what employers want, not whether it's fair for them to expect it. They simple fact of the matters is that they do want someone they can count on sticking it out indefinitely (i.e. until the employer no longer has a use for him). Whining that it's unfair may be gratifying, but it's not very helpful advice.
Re:Get a book. (Score:1)
Re:Get a book. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Get a book. (Score:1)
Many people in the IT industry have made a profession out of their hobby (myself included). In my experience, people with geek tendencies often find an IT course and career quite rewarding. Every decision like this is a bit of a lottery, so you might have to try something out and see how like it.
Re:Get a book. (Score:2)
I don't know what you are talking about. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I don't know what you are talking about. (Score:1)
Re:I don't know what you are talking about. (Score:1)
-TMF
Re:I don't know what you are talking about. (Score:3, Interesting)
In my experience the number of times someone uses the "learn how to think" argument is inversely proportional to the value of the material they are peddling. For example, at Ohio State, it's not uncommon for a Computer Science undergrad to take 30 credit hours worth of math in a 200 credit hour program.
After having worked for a few years as a developer, I can safely say that virtually all of the material in those math classes was of no direct utility in my occ
OTOH (Score:3, Interesting)
Before that, even more so, because I worked in a geoprocessing program... that calculated loads in the electrical plant of a whole state (yeah, 12 million people). Glob
Tech schools (Score:4, Informative)
Another option would be finding a college that has a "Built your own majors" or whatever they're called. Plenty of schools have them, just check around. That way you could just work with your guidance counselor to create a course structure that shys away from what you have difficulty doing.
Re:Tech schools (Score:5, Insightful)
OP: you already 'do computers' to some extent - have someone work with you to understand exactly where your interests are and then decide how to better develop them. Writing web page / scripting languages like HTML with ASP or JSP, talking to a database back end is something that can be done with little or no math - it is more along the lines of text and image processing, with simple addition being the most intense math. Network administration and doing in-house hardware / software maintenance is something that can be done with very little math. Installing wifi networks (including setting up the encryption) or regular router / firewalls, plus removing virus / worms at the small business / home consumer level can be done with very little math and given the rampage Sasser went on, both are in high need.
Your strength, as someone that has acknowledged his Autism, is your ability to reliably repeat a known working ritual or set of steps to a given goal. With a proper and complete set of instructions, you can recreate the procedure with good results. This is pretty much what 'computer stuff' is all about at certain levels.
That said, I have two comments.
First, determine honestly how interested you are in Technology and Computers. At the high school level if you understand and can program in several languages (not the math, but a fairly good grasp of the syntax of more than one language) and have written programs longer than 120 lines to do some things you want to do, if you are completely comfortable with more than one operating system (Windows / Linux / MacOS are readily available to anybody that is 'interested') to the point that you can fix things when they go wrong, or reinstall it without issue, these indicate a strong aptitude and genuine 'interest in Technology and Computers.' If 'doing computers' is chatting in IRC or AIM, playing java based games you find on the web, and surfing the Internet - these are not indicative of genuine 'interest in Technology and Computers.' If you have ever played Solitare on the computer to completion (regardless of whether you beat the computer or not)
If you are using the computer as an environment, as opposed to using the computer as an appliance - then you are well on your way to being a 'computer guy' and only need to consider one last aspect
Are you willing to learn all that you can learn, become as good as you can become in computers and technology whatever direction you find best fits your abilities - and then continue to do it for free? If you would still be a 'computer guy' if it meant you would be the poorest person you know, unable to provide for yourself except in the most minimal manner - then I encourage you to pursue it because you would be doing it because you wanted to do it, not for any other reason. I ask this not because of the current economic conditions in the tech field, nor for where I think they are going
PS - in the context of this discussion 'very little math' means very simple math. Doesn't take differential equations or calculus or even trig to do web pages or networking. Addition, multiplication, and binary/hex math can all be done with the help of a $40 calculator.
Re:Tech schools (Score:1, Interesting)
Anyway as a practicing CS I can tell you that I did not need one lick of math. You need the higher math to understand how to analyse algorithms and for advanced graphics optimizations. But 99% of the time you get your algorithms from a book
Most colleges have programs for things like this. (Score:2, Informative)
But, that doesn't mean you're down and out. You can nurture your artistic side, and then there is usability which is a good bit more psychology, or even anthropology than math.
If you want to give programing a try, you'd be the extremely rare exception to whom I recommend something like visual basic as a starting point. I'
Re:Most colleges have programs for things like thi (Score:1)
Re:Most colleges have programs for things like thi (Score:2)
Then again, with JavaBeans and a good visual IDE, you might manage to get some development done.
Re:Most colleges have programs for things like thi (Score:1)
Re:Most colleges have programs for things like thi (Score:2)
So what do you do?
I'm guessing you are now a contractor / consultant doing infrastructure through a broker, probably on a 1099 basis (a
Re:Most colleges have programs for things like thi (Score:1)
Re:Most colleges have programs for things like thi (Score:1)
Not actually inevitably true. I have been at the same company for 25 years, and my salary is now approx 16 times my entry salary. OK, we've had a fair bit of inflation in the mean time, but in real terms I am probably getting four times my initial salary. And I am still, basically, a geek. I design system architectures an
Lot's of places you can work. (Score:2)
The are lot's of places you can work [byte.com]
Re:Troll. (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe i am a bastard,but, surely, no more than someone who is blind and wants to be a bus driver.
Or someone who is autistic and cant do even simple math and want to....
Simple math ain't! (Score:1)
Computers and Math (Score:5, Informative)
For example, the speed of a bubble sort is O(n^2). A trivial bubble sort has to iterate over a list for every element in that list. So, assuming n items in the list, the bubble sort needs to go through the list n times, each time going through the list (in a nested loop) n times. Giving you a speed of n*n, or n^2. Anyway, a merge sort is O(n*log(n)), but it requires 2n memory, whereas a bubble sort is done in n memory. So, which would be better for your application?
Network administration usually also requires a bit of math.
For example, the IP addresses 10.1.1.1 and 10.1.5.8 are in the subnet 255.255.248.0. To do this, I converted both IPs to binary, and found the most significant 0, and then 0'ed out all of the bits below that. Then I converted back to decimal.
(I simplified the examples, because explaining subnets or sorting is beyond the scope of this post.)
In short, I rarely do basic math, but some of the more advanced stuff is critical. I would suggest grabbing a copy of a programming language, and attempting to modify a simple program to do something else, to see if you have what it takes to be a programmer.
I'd suggest Perl [perl.com], but that's my opinion, and opinions about languages vary greatly. Perl is one of the more natural languages, and may be more forgiving for you. Then again, it may cause more problems because you're not explicit enough in telling it what you want, in which case try Python [python.org].
Good luck.
Re:Computers and Math (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Computers and Math (Score:2)
Re:Computers and Math (Score:1, Offtopic)
"this is why every good hacker is part mystic".
What a load of crap! Just because ESR thinks he's "a shaman and a vessel of the Goat-Foot God [catb.org]", that doesn't mean other hackers have to.
Re:Computers and Math (Score:1, Offtopic)
So then are Microsoft Visual Basic programmers are the shamans and vessels of the Goatse.cx Guy/God?
Re:Computers and Math (Score:3, Interesting)
As you said, programming is a state of mind type of exercise. My experience has been -- consistently, and backed up by classical training, that you do not start people on things like perl which is indescriable.
A simple structured language -- python is acceptable but i'd still suggest good old fasioned pascal. Granted it teaches out-of-style procedural kind of programming, but it enforces rigid structure, is fairly simple and s
Re:Computers and Math (Score:2)
This is how you conceive the sorts to
Re:Computers and Math (Score:2)
On the other hand, it doesn't require much in the way of number crunching beyond basic arithmetic. Someone can be good at discrete math and symbolic logic, and horrible at working with numbers.
Re:Computers and Math (Score:2)
I very much agree with the hack-mode post above too, sometimes I look at code I wrote at one stage, and just frown in confusion.
Re:Computers and Math (Score:1)
http://www.telusplanet.net/public/sparkman/netc
Re:Good on you (Score:1)
Learn On The Job (Score:1)
As others have said, the main problem you will face with most Computer Science and Computer Engineering courses are the math requirements. I've been into computers since the TRS-80 yet when I did my studies in the 90's I found the math about as much fun as root canal work.
I reckon your best bet is to find a local computer engineering shop who unde
You have to be more specific (Score:5, Insightful)
This doesn't even really mean you are bad at math. There are a huge variety of math related skills that are useful in computers. Geometric intuition is often useful. The abiliyt to make logical inferences is critical. Accurate arithmetic is not all that important -- we use spreadsheets and calculators like most people do.
Generally speaking, if classic autism or something in that spectrum of problems is your issue, there should not be any problem with doing computer science. Working with other team members is going to be your biggest problem. Most work in computers involves interacting with customers and team members, and this can be socially challenging. It doesn't mean you won't be able to carve out a niche in the world of computing, but it will probably be your biggest challenge.
Do you really want CS? (Score:1)
Re:Do you really want CS? (Score:2)
The remaining 1% are divided into canned software code monkey jobs who produce something used by more than one customer, and the other 1/2% are people with another esoteric skill that happen to have learned to program and are utilized to translate that skill into software. This is easier than feeling comfortable signing
Re:Do you really want CS? (Score:1)
Seek a non traditional route (Score:4, Informative)
My thoughts are:
Do not let the math get you down there is a lot of programming and other high tech work in the world that does not require doing much mathematics. Most of the mathematical heavy lifting is being done by the computer scientists. Most of us just need to use the tools they create with some care and understanding to get good results.
Learn to do the kinds of programming your are good at. It may be scripting, or user interface. Or you may find that a very specific type of work is correct something so specific that nobody thinks there is a market for it but by being very very good at it you can make a market for yourself.
Go to collage I took as many computer science courses as I could but my degree is in anthropology. Many days what I learned in anthro is as useful as anything I know about technology.
Do not give, up but also realize that you may not be a RMS or a Linus more than likely you will work very hard to be average. Start by excepting that and make sure you do the other things you want to do in your life.
You like everyone else in the world has to choose a path. If you choose a path you are very likely to fail at you will be very likely to be unhappy (but you can change paths). If you choose a path that lacks challenge and or does not interest you, you will also be unhappy. Finding a path that is challenging and rewarding that you struggle and succeed is somewhere in between but that is a path the you will most likely be happy on.
Charles Puffer
Re:Seek a non traditional route (Score:2)
I don't mean this as a slam or a wise-crack, but as serious, constructive criticism, noting that you are dyslexic.
Your writing would be considerably easier to understand if you:
Re:Seek a non traditional route (Score:1)
So you're picking on the wrong guy about spellchecking. However, your second point is correct. His post needed a lot more punctuation. Also, he may not know that he can use br and p html tags to break up his
Re:Seek a non traditional route (Score:2)
What kind of autism? (Score:5, Informative)
The lay distinction is that Asperger's is high-functioning autism, or autism without mental retardation, and in some cases of Asperger's even higher than average intelligence; but while there are more high-functioning individuals with Asperger's than Kanner's, high-functioning and low-functioning individuals with both syndromes exist. A diagnosis of Asperger's, unlike Kanner's does not include late speech or speech followed by a loss of speech, but both forms involve speech abnormalities of one sort or another, and both involve significant social impairment, related to an inability to "read" others' body language or (more so in Kanner's) an inability to conceive that others' perceptions differ from the autistic person's.
In nuerotypical (i.e., normal) brains, the part of the brain called the fusiform gyrus is activated to "read" another person's emotional state from the other's facial expression. In autistic persons (either Kanner or Asperger), the fusiform gyrus is not activated [oupjournals.org], with some studies showing autistic used parts of the brain used for object processing [ama-assn.org] and others that each autistic individual uses a different brain areas to process facial emotional cues [oupjournals.org]. High-functioning autistics generally explain that they process faces consciously, apparently as part of general problem solving.
Autistics are often seem as having less empathy or "flatter" emotions, although Temple Grandin [wikipedia.org], a high-functioning Kanner type autistic, reports that autistic have different emotions with the predominant emotion being a pervasive sense of fear. It is unclear whether this fear is the cause, effect, or just a
correlate of, the social impairments of autistic.
Autistics genenerally have special areas of interest which they obsess over, and this is in fact one required criteria for diagnosis.
Autism has only been included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders [wikipedia.org], the handbook of (American) psychiatry, since 1994, and so was apparently often mis-diagnosed (as depression, schizophrenia, or Pervasive Developmental Disorder) until recently; in many cases, the diagnosis of a child has led to a retroactive diagnoses (usual of Asperger's, as it's more "subtle") of one or both parents. Autism is one of the most strongly inherited neurological syndromes.
For more and more balanced information (I happened tonight to be browsing the journal articles that I cited, thus my emphasis on them) see (as usual) Wikipedia's article on autism [wikipedia.org].
To the submitter: do you know what form of autism you have?
Perhaps not computer science, but a related field? (Score:3, Insightful)
I infer that by this you mean that your intelligence lies outside of mathematical skills. Strictly speaking, computer science can be similar to a math degree, and you might not want to go that route.
In business, however, not everyone is a computer scientist. In my experience, that type of a degree is more suited to scientific, engineering, and generally abstract types of programming. This is usually (but not always) associated with some mathematical skills, and a Com Sci degree would help.
In business a huge percentage of the undertaking of software development centers around tasks outside of this. For instance, project planning, requirements gathering, testing, and technical writing are all tasks that are integral to software development, but not neccessarily related to math or 'hard' CS skills.
You could try pursueing a Business Degree, an Informations Systems degree, or even an English degree.
Good luck to you
--Pete
options (Score:4, Informative)
Also, look into trade and tech schools for certification programs. If you can teach yourself to do the work, and can prove that you know how, that may be all it takes for some of what you want to do.
There's a lot of room in the computer world and no, not all of it involves math. You probably have some adaptive skills that other people don't have, both from the unique brain makeup and particularly from having to work around it. These can be a big asset when it comes time to develop unique approaches to problems. I'd rather have someone who can think on my team than someone who can calculate- calculation can be done by computer, but originality and creativity are still human-led fields.
One thing is certain- everyone loves it when people show initiative. So don't give up. The strength that it takes to tackle a disability head-on and work on such a goal in spite of it really does get respect in the real world. Above all, hang out where computers are being discussed. Make friends with the local geeks, hang out at tech school info meets, go check out what's out there. You'll find that they're all looking for bright people and willing to bend in a lot of ways if approached in a 'how can i go to your school' mindset. Let yourself be, to some degree, a group project- you will benefit, the school will benefit, and the world will benefit from one more person having one more skill.
Good luck, and keep us posted, all right?
Learning Maths (Score:2)
You imply that your problem with mathematics stems from your illness. Is this so?
I'm not particularly bright, but I had supportive parents, and my dad in particular introduced me to some of the more interesting
Talk to the schools (Score:4, Informative)
Most universities and colleges have facilities to help people with disabilities who are capable of a university education, but require some adjustments to the standard way of doing things in order to accommodate their needs. You may have to go through some testing to determine what they are able to do for you.
Most traditional computer science or engineering programs do require math -- though mind you, higher-level math is very different from basic arithmatic. While you may not be able to complete a degree in these subjects without math, the schools may allow you to take a lot of the non-math coursework.
You may also want to think about what really interests you about technology -- not everyone who loves technology belongs in a computer science or engineering program. (I graduated with a CS degree, but in hindsight I would have been much happier in another program.) If you like this kind of thing, social implications of technology, interdisciplinary programs like cognitive sciences, etc., are other ways to get into technology without the math.
Re:Talk to the schools (Score:2)
Find someone who's work interests you and show up during office hours. Do a little research, read some recent journal articles as an ice breaker ("I have some questions about the implications of the algorithm you developed in the piece from last month's Journal") but don't feel the need to bullshit--don't pretend you understand more than you do. And don't hide your intent. You're not a colleague there to discuss the latest de
Anything Really Is Possible (Score:2)
Actually, the corpse won. [cnn.com]
From a fellow AC (Score:4, Informative)
Lack of Basic Math (Score:1)
Looks like you're on track for a management position!
Re:Lack of Basic Math (Score:1)
Learning vs. School (Score:2)
I've spent more time in school after high school graduation than before; 4 degrees and one state practician's license. I agree with the above statement.
Be aware there are alternative ways to learn math. I used to teach algebra and trig to math phobics -- people who were afraid to balance their checkbook. Converting it to a natural lang
I hate to be an asshole, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
If math is your weakness, shouldn't you concentrate on it?
AFAIK, the therapy for dyslexia includes reading lessons. The therapy for severe autism includes dealing with other people.
Personally, I'm pretty shy in certain situations. So I force myself to go out and say hello to strangers on the sidewalk, bore checkout ladies with chitchat, etc. If I ignored my problem, it would get worse. Will I ever reach the level of social interaction the average person has? No. But am I getting better? Yes!
So why are you avoiding math if its your weakness?
weakness vs. disability (Score:3, Insightful)
Shyn
Re:weakness vs. disability (Score:2)
So it does. When watching ads for anti-anxiety medications (Do you feel too inhibited at social gatherings? Do you have a hard time talking to people?) it seemed like they might as well have been advertising alcohol.
I have to add, though, that depending on how much you drink, I
If you are really set on college... (Score:3, Insightful)
and seem to be interested in computers, why not skip Computer Science (overrated, BTW, for most jobs that specify it) and look into things like computer-based art, music, or graphic design. Is your issue with math skills with math itself or with abstract thinking in general? Answering questions like these along with other introspection about your interests and ambitions should help guide you in making the right choice. Also, don't forget to plan how you will *pay* for college. Any more than a few years of post-college debt for a particular school means you need a cheaper school. People who allow themselves to get suckered into ten years of loan payments made a mistake and they typically regret it (speaking from experience).
Be your own person (Score:3, Insightful)
Read about the education of such geniuses as Franklin, Edison and Einstein.
That's Remarkably Trite (Score:2)
Autism isn't just a label: it's a group of symptoms that can be incredibly debilitating and limiting, but as they are better understood, can be mitigated. And that's why a diagnosis might be crucial, especially to someone with academic ambitions. Once a condition is identified, and to some extent understood, everyone involved -- students, t
From an autistic ex-programmer... (Score:1)
Several posters have focused on math. But I would argue that, as part of a system-design team for instance, one would not need math skills in order to m
I would still look into college. (Score:1)
Unless you are an academic, its about people too (Score:1)
We tend to forget this from time to time, but computers are there to serve people's needs. You need to understand how people interact with computers in order to design good user interfaces (why *does* your grandma prefer the mac, for example?). You need to understand customer requirements to design an application.
Now, if your autism makes it hard to relate to people, this may be an issue. If not, great. But think abo
Community College and/or Certs (Score:2)
I've been working the past 6 months at a community college after working previously at a p
Community College is great... but (Score:3, Informative)
My long-winded, but hopefully helpful, advice! (Score:1)
To give you an idea of where