The Urban Geek As A Mugger Magnet?

CGP314 writes "I live in London and whenever I travel around, I feel like a huge target for muggers. Usually I take my laptop, iPod, cell phone and occasionally a PDA around with me. As with many geeks, these items hold within them far more value to me than anything I leave behind in my apartment. So I would like to know what my fellow urban geeks do to try and keep their valuables safe while traveling with them. I've switched my iPod headphones from the distinctive white to a boring black as a means of camouflage; are there any other suggestions?"

Feelings

[Malevolyn]

I've felt this way many-a-time during middle and high school. I used to have locks on EVERYthing to prevent my stuff from being stolen.

yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

>"are there any other suggestions?"

Martial arts

btw; First post

Carry a gun

[cyrax777]

Im not kidding get a Carry Concealed Weapon Permit.

Re:Carry a gun

[telstar]

"Im not kidding get a Carry Concealed Weapon Permit."

• All that'll do is give the crazy soccer mom's another opportunity to blame DOOM for deaths...

its all about the accessories

[lawngnome]

Ditching the white earphones was a good first step - I would also suggest not using a fancy case to carry around your laptop - those leather targus bags just scream "look at me! expensive stuff here!"

Look Alert

[spun]

It's not what you have, it's whether you look like an easy target or not. Look around as you walk, be alert, notice people and make sure they know you notice them, but don't stare. Don't slouch and stare at the ground.

Get a gun

[eggstasy]

Or at least a self-defense course.
People all over the world should be given the right, nay, the duty to defend themselves with lethal force from the worthless scum of the world.
I've been mugged several times myself, so please excuse my bitterness.

Re:Carry a gun

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't help the author, who lives in London.

Weigh your options...

[poofmeisterp]

Is it more important to you to have these items on you while you're out, or is it more important to you that they be safe?

If the answer is that you must have them on you, then try to avoid "bad parts" of town and accept the fact that you're putting yourself in a dangerous position. Pray to your deity. Consider carrying a tazer.

If the answer is that you'd rather hang on to them for the long run, leave the damn things at home.

Re:Carry a gun

[eggz128]

Yeah, good luck with that in LONDON.

Re:Feelings

[Malevolyn]

Yeah, I just noticed that question at the end. Goes to show how reading is a good thing. I'd have to say the iPod headphone switch was a good move. But I don't think a laptop can be that easily concealed. Unless you have a cheap backpack or something, that'd about about all you can do to look inconspicuous. The most basic thing is to keep your stuff outta sight. I tried the cheap look once. It works pretty well, I must say.

Re:Carry a gun

[orz]

I think it's a bit hard to do that in London that it is in the US.

off-site backups --not just for corporations

[everyplace]

Living in cities with anything like a decent crime rate, I view mugging and / or damage to equipment that I carry regularly as inevitible, and plan accordingly. The data that my equipment carries far exceeds the cost of the equipment itself, so I try to keep backups of data on another machine at my house or in another location entirely.

I will say though, I was working at a convenience store a few years ago, and got held up at gun point while developing on my powerbook. All I could think about while handing them the money from the register was to position myself in exactly the right place so that the gunman couldn't see my laptop directly behind me. Ever since that close call, I've stuck to my "guns" when it comes to regular backups.

Re:Carry a gun

[Ralph Yarro]

Im not kidding get a Carry Concealed Weapon Permit.

In London???

Re:Not a problem here

[MSTCrow5429]

I totally agree, right now hoping to get a Glock 26 for CC. However, he lives in London. The UK has enacted a total gun ban, and consequently, violent crime rates have gone up. Way up. London, along with Paris, are now the crime capitals of the Western world. As a previous poster said, the best thing to do would be to leave London. I'd say not only leave London, but move to a region where self-defense isn't a crime.

Yep, another CCW person weighs in.

[Scot Seese]

Exercise your 2nd amendment rights and obtain a concealed carry permit. Oh, wait..

Sorry guys, I couldn't resist, having noted that most of the early posts went the same way. I enjoy having mine. It's not the posessions so much as your life - Remember, when seconds count, help is only minutes away.

Re:Carry a gun

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, fantastic. The average iPod, laptop and PDA nerd pulling a gun on a mugger might just be the only thing stupider and more likely to get someone actually killed than the average joe doing it. Try not to shoot your own foot, or better yet, do- and then slump over and make sure you don't have any more bullets to get you in trouble.

Re:Carry a gun

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this flamebait? Offtopic, perhaps, because the guy is in London (so he can't get one), but I hardly think the mere mention of firearms is flamebait.

Stop caring...

[Sophrosyne]

Life is too short to walk around worrying about muggers.
I think this has to be the worst ask slashdot yet.

Re:Carry a gun

[Mskpath3]

England has (very famously) prosecuted a disabled man for using pepper spray for fighting off a mugger [thisislancashire.co.uk]. I hardly think a concealed carry permit is even a remote possibility, seeing as how practically all firearms have been 100% banned in the country.

The basic freedom of self defense is seriously eroded in the UK. I have to chuckle when people like to throw around "Oh, Europe is truly free compared to the US.". Sorry - if you can't even fight off a mugger with pepper spray, you're a serf. Nothing more.

Re:Look Alert

[scrotch]

Do what I do:
- cut your own hair. badly.
- get pierced a few times.
- get a tattoo or two.
- wear old clothes. don't wash them often.
- use an old bag (bookbag/shoulderbag).

Look like you might take something rather than have something taken from you. It's remarkably easy, and it helps you avoid people that judge others by their appearance...

And never carry any weapon unless you're 100 percent confident that it couldn't be taken from you if you were surprised by four large men.

Re:its all about the accessories

[Anonymous Coward]

Very good point about the computer case. A regular backpack (what I use) is a lottery for thieves; it could contain anything from some cheap books to an expensive laptop. A more specialized computer bag would almost certainly contain a laptop. If I were a thief, I know which one I'd try to swipe.

Re:Look Alert

[jnik]

Look like you might take something rather than have something taken from you. It's remarkably easy, and it helps you avoid people that judge others by their appearance...
Except maybe police and security personnel, who are notorious about that sort of thing.

Be Aware

[patchmaster]

How about not using your Ipod when you're walking around? You have to be less aware of your surroundings if you're drowning out the city noise with music, and any experienced mugger is going to know it. Crank the music up and anyone can easily sneak up behind you.

The other obvious thing is to not be obvious. Don't wear your PDA and Ipod and cell phone where it's obvious you have them. Buy a non-descript bag and carry all your stuff in that. And be sure the bag is securely attached to your person. Don't make it easy for someone to snatch and run.

Re:Look Alert

[H310iSe]

Yea, not to blame the victim but the way you hold yourself goes a long way to whether you're picked out as a target (it won't stop all the shit that may come your way but it can certainly limit it). Unfortunately I can't say what, exactly, it is that works well, but I used to walk around spanish harlem at 3 am all the time and never had any real problem. The people who lived in my place before me were mugged 3 times in 6 months. Confidence, minding your own business, and a genuine lack of fear (sometimes it helps to bringing some sort of talisman or gewgaw, like a rabbits foot or a big knife or something. Myself I found carying a 40 around was nice as it provided a) beer and b) a big heavy club).

Lastly, know your neighborhood. A lot of crime happens close to home, if you're recognized and respected (not liked, just respected) then people will look out for you. I've had help from unexpected places on several occasions ... so be a decent bloke and your neighbors will have your back.

Re:Carry a gun

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's ignore the fact that the guy is in London and cannot carry a gun.... however, for those of us that are able to bear arms, remember:

(1) Your gun is not a toy
(2) Only reach for your gun as a last resort
(3) Only shoot if absolutely necessary
(4) If you have to shoot, shoot to kill. "Your word against his" is a lot easier when "he" is dead.

Seriously, though, in this country (US), it is easier to deal with an "excessive force" charge as a victim than the civil suit for "lost wages and mental anguish" from your now-wounded attacker.

Re:Carry a gun

[smallfeet]

No, carry the gun, but never pull it out and use it. The martial arts idea has the same effect but takes a lot longer to develope. If you feel powerful you will project that in your body language and the bad guys may deside there is easier picking elsewhere. If someone does mug you, for God's sake just give them your stuff. Nobody's life is worth an iPod.

Situational Awareness and Attitude

[freebase]

Simply put, don't be a target. Carry yourself with the attitude that you aren't anyone's target, you belong exactly where you are, and know exactly what's going down.

Know what's going on around you at all times. Walking around any kinda of area where you could get mugged wearing any kind of earphones tells those watching that you have NO awareness of much of anything except what's right in front of you. Since you're a geek, maybe not even that.

Use the senses you were born with... if you hear something behind you, move first, ask questions later. See something that makes the hair on your neck bristle ahead? MOVE to the other side of the street. Don't take that shortcut down the isolated alley.

Vary your routes if you think you need to..

Above all, be aware of what's going on, and who's around you at all times.

Re:Be Aware

[RobGarth]

> How about not using your Ipod when you're walking > around?

It's a PORTABLE music player. Why the f#$% else would you have it.

Re:Not a problem here

[StupidKatz]

you know, i'd rather have my stuff stolen than live with shooting someone... even a crook.

A very noble statement - potentially taking the life of another human is a very sobering situation to have to consider living with.
As for myself, if I ever feel as if a threat to my life exists (i.e., violently accosted by a stranger), I've thought through and made my decision already...

I'm filling the sucker full of lead. My life is more important than a would-be criminal's.

The Real Trick Is...

[FFFish]

...learning to walk properly.

There's a way of walking that just cries out "Oooh! I'm a victim! Pick me, pick me!"

There's another way of walking that says you know where you are and what you're doing. It says you're capable and confident. And it says that you're probably not going to roll over when mugged, and probably will make it more hassle than it's worth for what little you probably have on you.

You might find it enlightening to sit on a bench and watch the people pass by. Identify which ones look like targets, and which don't. Learn the difference.

Re:Carry a gun

[Mskpath3]

It takes extreme myopia for someone to make this kind of statement.

Is it really that hard to understand that the gun is a deterrent, not a 'thugicide'? The firing of a gun in self defense is literally that - self defense. When you pull a gun (hopefully after taking one or more courses in lethal force usage) you are sending a message to the criminal : this episode is over.

90% of all self defense situations involving firearms are happily resolved without the gun being fired. That's the intention : pure deterrance with the added insurance of being able to use it in an acute emergency. That's a win for everyone.

The image the gun control crowd loves is people simply pulling a gun at every possible instance and spraying. That's simply not consistent with reality - nor is the very silly 'it'll just get taken away from you' myth.

Maybe you are the problem

[theefer]

I'd say not only leave London, but move to a region where self-defense isn't a crime.

Excuse me ?

This is the most stupid post I've read in weeks, and I have to reply.

First, I don't know where you have found your statistics, but if you ask anyone in the streets (take someone in Sweden or Italy if you want them to be neutral), they will tell you that they are much more afraid of violence in countries that allow people to carry weapons around (e.g. the USA) than in countries where it is not allowed, no matter what the Official Crime Rate is.

Personnally, I've already walked alone in Paris and in its subway at night. Whereas I would not say I was totally confortable (but even here in Switzerland, you can be aggressed if you are really not lucky), it is nothing compared to the feeling I'd get if I were to walk in streets where half the people would carry guns.

The second thing is, self-defense is not restricted to carrying guns. I'd be interested to know how many times people really defend themselves with their guns (and what is the ratio against "gun accidents" for instance). Plus, if all the "Honest People" carry guns, why wouldn't your aggressor ? Then if both have guns, who wins ? Do you start a duel in the middle of the street ?

There are many different kind of self-defense, and weapons are probably the most stupid one (because violence triggers violence). You can learn how to defend yourself physically (kick the balls, aim at the throat or the eyes, etc). You can carry non-deadly weapons (pepper spray, etc). You can try to always be part of a small group of people. You can run (no, really).

But don't come and tell us that deadly weapons such as guns make for a more secure, less violent city !

Re:What a load of crap

[ErikZ]

"One of the most serious problems in our schools in this country today is gang violence and the increasing frequency with which children are bringing guns to school. But then again, why WOULDN'T kids bring guns to school when we've always got the National Rifle Association telling us that the only way to protect yourself against crime is to always carry a gun with you everywhere you go."

In the old days, kids brought their rifles to school without problems. I guess it's the guns fault that they're having problems today.

Re:Carry a gun

[gmack]

So many geeks I know walk around as if the world is out to get them.. the result. This probably attracts more bullies and muggers than anything else imaginable.

I don't know if carrying a gun will make a nervous person any more confident though. A scared person with a gun is still a scared person.

You don't neccesarily need to feel powerful.. feeling average should be enough.

Re:An universal truth

[Ian Cackett]

Agreed. It's all about attitude and confidence, and learning to project them both even if you don't actually *feel* confident the whole time.
I never use my mobile whilst I'm walking. If I get a call when I'm out, I take it but I stand to one side, just so I'm aware what's going on around me. I've also got a fairly naff MP3 player. Who really wants to carry their entire music collection around with them every day in an iPod?!
I've lived in London for ten years, travelled thousands of miles in the US by Greyhound, and spent a great deal of time in New York. I don't *feel* confident in most of those situations, but I've learned that looking pissed off is a useful way of projecting "don't come near me" at any wannabe attackers. If you've got that slight 'unknown' about you, they'll generally look elsewhere. I'd be fairly useless in any attack situation, but they don't *know* that, so I've avoided trouble to-date.

Re:Carry a gun

[jonbryce]

There is no "right to bear arms" in the European Declaration of Human Rights. Only a right to life. And bearing arms is not considered to be compatible with that.

Re:Carry a gun

[secolactico]

I also dispise thiefs and the such enough to end thier life if it ever becomes an opertunity.

You know, if for some reason you are ever brought to trial for homicide (accidental, unfounded or otherwise) and the DA finds this post and manages to connect it to you, you will look pretty bad in front of a jury.

;-) Just kidding... that was the paranoid in me running amok.

Walk Without Music

[Kenshin]

I've got an iPod, but I almost NEVER use it while walking. I tend to use it exclusively on the train or at work.

While walking, or for that matter cycling, I prefer to be tuned-into my surroundings.

No. Here's the perfect gadget bag:

[Estanislao Martínez]

What you want to do is to carry all your gadgets in a diaper bag. Yes, I'm serious. This is a time-tested technique. Nobody wants to steal a baby-blue or pink cute little bag full of shit.

Re:Get a gun

[The Dark P]

The fundamental difference is that in Europe people don't fear the state. The state is something that they have selected and is there to look after them, provide healthcare etc. In the US the state is seen as a negative force mainly because all it does is provide an alphabet soup of agencies who send armed agents out to meddle in the lives of the people.

France has a standing army and a nuclear deterrent, and any nation with a permanent seat on the UN security council is a "relatively significant power".

Now, while i'm not in favour of just handing all our sovereignty over to the EU, I'd rather Britain were a founder member of the US of E than just another state in the US of A.

Re:Carry a gun

[Dravik]

In some states he would get public praise

Re:Carry a gun

[phillymacmike]

Seriously, though, in this country (US), it is easier to deal with an "excessive force" charge as a victim than the civil suit for "lost wages and mental anguish" from your now-wounded attacker.

This probably will get modded down, but whether you agree with it or not, he is right.

But then you deal with the lost wages and mental anguish suit from the family. I go with insurance, regular backups, and give the a$$*&^% my toys. Works when your home is burglarized, too.

-- Mike

Back up data

[Dark Bard]

I would try to get into the habbit of backing up important files on something like a pen drive. You can easily slip it into your pocket and often the data on the computer is more valuable than the machine itself. CD and DVD burners are great but if you use a CDRW be sure to remove the disk between back ups. You don't want to be saying after it is stolen at least I backed it up only to realize the disk is still in the drive.

Ignorance is bliss...

[WIAKywbfatw]

Last week a police officer was killed (stabbed by a suspect he was chasing) in the line of duty in Birmingham, UK. It was the biggest news story (front page of all papers, lead item on TV news, etc) for 24 hours.

In the US, how many police officers would have to die in a single incident to get that level of blanket news coverage? How many are shot and killed every week?

Yet somehow most Americans buy into the myth that Britain is a more violent society than their own? Ignorance is bliss.

Re:Carry a gun

[bladernr]

There is no "right to bear arms" in the European Declaration of Human Rights. Only a right to life. And bearing arms is not considered to be compatible with that.

What about using arms to defend your life or the life of a family member, friend, or complete stranger?

My elderly mother (63) lives alone, and has a gun. She would never be able to fend off an attacker using a knife or even his bare hands, but she is a great shot, and there is no doubt in my mind she is capable of defending herself.

Removing her right to bear arms could be denying her right to life, especially in the rural area she lives in, with only a 8-5 M-F police force.

(Obviously, we are in the US, not Europe.)

low profile

[dindi]

1. wear a used arny jacket !!
-warm with liner isn't without, looks crappy enough, but can look stylish (eg US alpha jacket - black)

2. use a crappy looking backpack, that hides the form of a laptop (my toshiba can be spotted in most of my backpacks ...(i have a gym and a surfer backpack, the both suck for laptop)

3. go to the gym/martial arts stuff (i am 6.3'' and 87kilos (194pounds for all you ignorant non metrics)

4. shave your head -or wear very short (no i am not a skinhead) but it gives a nice aggression-level-boost to the most babyfaced person ... (i also bikeride a lot and it's just better not to rot into your helmet)

5. wear your watch upside down if you have something high tech or a rolex - so only the belt shows ..

6. combat boots help, but even a pair of martens give a boost (the round nose ones) in the UK they are dirt chep at markets, even new (i do not like the metal insert martens - just gives you a too aggressive look, also only punks bouncers and alik wear them where i am from)

7. don't look like a geek ... or look like a geek that might carry a remote controlled nuke in the backpack ...

8. shout in a foreign language ... speaking hungarian (especially our tasty cursing ) seem to make some people think ...

and if it gets tight just hand it over and run ...
i agree an ipod or laptop does not worth getting stabbed, blinded, beaten .. or whatever ...

here in cr i also try to keep a low profile, i keep my bike dirty, and never change decals/stickers, the shittiest it looks the most likely no one touches it....
same with cars ... i never wash it, and try to keep it dirty (it's easy, just leave the sand in it from the beach, and throw chocolat papers and other crap on the floor)

on the other hand I am riding hours in the middle of nowhere and i know if someone comes with a gun i just take a walk home and not try to get into troubble, on the other hand if i see the opportunity to fight i will take the slightest chance to kick the hell out whoever tries to take my stuff ...

I know on the streets of london it is not an option, but protective gear (motocross) helps a lot in a fistfight .. i know i got into one once... and i wasn't the one who left the place running :)

--
is it just me or are all the car drivers are asses
when you look from a bike :)

Re:better

[Lobo]

Better a live serf than a dead cowboy?

I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six!

Re:Feelings

[MikeFM]

I did that. I also dress like something between a freak and a bum and I dyed my hair blue. Anyone that hassles me I make weird comments to about aliens and my fondness for anal probes and women with three breasts.

Amazingly this tactic really cuts back on the number of girls that go out with me too. Luckily there is an easy solution.. leave the electronics at home, dress nicer, look a lil less scary, and show off how much cash you're making at your nice geek job.

Showing a little confidence has the interesting effect of scaring off muggers while attracting women. Be warned though, women are much more costly than muggers. Muggers generally don't move in with you and continue to drain your finances for long periods of time.

Re:Carry a gun

[OverkillTASF]

You do not have to kill someone for a handgun to be effective. Any mugger, short of one who himself has a handgun, is going to stop short and find an easier victim if he sees that you have a handgun. Simply drawing and holding it at a low ready should do the trick. If not, up it comes ready to fire. If they continue at you, it would be reasonable to assume that they have intent to harm you, and then...

Re:Carry a gun

[OverkillTASF]

You do NOT EVER shoot to kill. You shoot to live. Shoot to end the threat. If one shot to the chest kills him, you shot to live. If one shot goes wild and hits him in the arm and he drops his weapon (Whether that be a gun, a knife, or his fists) and retreats, then the threat is gone and you have no further business shooting. If three shots to the chest don't stop him and the threat is still there, keep shooting until there is no longer a threat. Shooting with the intention to kill is how you get in deep shit in court. In fact, one of the things a prosecuting lawyer (even in an obvious self defense shoot) will try to get you on is whether your ammunition was specifically designed to kill someone. Some of the best self defense ammunition such as "Hydra-shoks" and "Black Talon" will make the jury think that you meant to kill someone, whereas the more mundane "Gold Dot" is less scary, and less likely to be used against you even though all of them attempt to do the same thing: Expand to avoid overpenetration and harm to innocent people while transferring as much of the energy in the bullet to the target as possible.

Re:its all about the accessories

[Paradise Pete]

many moderators choose insightful instead to give the author their karma points.

They should use underrated, then.

Re:Feelings

[MikeFM]

I've been both shot and stabbed. It's really not the big deal that tv makes it out to be. It hurts but isn't really the tragic horror that it's shown as on tv. Most muggers don't know how to use their weapons and aren't really motivated to use them. So they attack you and make a quick buck.. now they have a major criminal offense against them. Whereas if they just accept the brush off and move on to an easier target the chance is that they won't be doing any serious time. Sure, most of them aren't to bright but it's not hard to figure something so basic out. For the dumber ones you can confuse them by just acting like you didn't notice them or behaving in a insane manner. Raving about aliens and the coming end of the world is a first rate way to convince someone that it's not worth their effort to fuck with you.

Maybe this only works if you have the right mindset though. If you're nutty enough not give a fuck if someone stabs you then you'll probably not be picked as a target by many muggers. At least not if they have been at their job very long. Give in to them and sure you might get away unscratched but you're more likely to be picked as a target and the more often you're picked as a target the more likely some asshole will ice you just for fun.

Re:May not be for you, but...

[rice_burners_suck]

Note: possibly not for the single geek pickin' up hot dates.

Heh heh... This is why most geeks have problems getting hot dates! What you fail to understand is that if girls think you're already taken, that makes you more valuable, and therefore, more wanted.

In other words, if you're hanging with a bunch of guys at the local bar, you'll find it much more difficult to pick up a date than if you're there with a girl. So just go with some girl who's "just friends" with you, wait until she goes to the bathroom or something, and then go talk to that hot potential date who's there. I don't know why this works. After all, girls get pissed when you cheat on 'em, but if they think you'll dump some other girl for them, that turns 'em on. But then, girls don't make any sense anyway.

Re:Carry a gun

[homer_ca]

Not only is an ipod not worth a life. It's only worth about 3 hours of lawyer time. If you shoot someone you'll need a lot more lawyer hours than that even if it's an obvious case of self defense. A CCW is not something to take lightly. It's one thing to use a gun to protect your life. Just don't do anything stupid like shoot a mugger fleeing with your laptop.

Re:Ignorance is bliss...

[WIAKywbfatw]

Perhaps Americans value liberty more than safety. (But then, to the British, perhaps safety is liberty.)

Explain the USA PATRIOT Act in that context then, please.

Re:Get a gun

[The Dark P]

Yes I admit we owe you for your support in WW2, especially as it was so timely!

The nice life the French have was bought and paid for with Russian blood and don't kid yourself. The USA lost 500,000 men in the entire war, both in the Pacific and Europe. Russia lost over 13 million against Germany alone.

Likewise the European powers lost over 2 million, not including civillians.

Furthermore, your economy only started to recover from its disasterous nosedive thanks to the start of the war and the corresponding increase in European military spending.

And, as for the level of safety felt by most Londoners. I have lived there all my life and visited New York, and the difference in atmosphere was negligible, both were equally safe in my view, the difference being that I know that the majority of people do not carry guns;

Fewer guns=lower probability of being shot

Re:Two things

[Johnno74]

In shepards bush/acton you can't swing a cat without hitting 3 or 4 antiopodean backpackers (young people from SA, NZ, AU). These areas are very safe, I used to live there. Finsbury, Streatham.... well, you have a point there!

Important

[Mark_MF-WN]

On of the best thinsg you can do is take a martial arts class and learn how to break-fall.

Violent attacks usually start with a clothesline from behind -- you fall on your face, crushing your nose and breaking some teeth. Then you're in so much pain that you can't fight back. This goes for muggings, rapes, and good old-fashioned assaults. But if you can break your fall, you're in a much better position to defend yourself.

Re:Ignorance is bliss...

[Afrosheen]

I don't see where your assumption that "...most Americans buy into the myth that Britain is a more violent society". Nobody said it was more violent, they simply stated that it's much harder to *legally* defend yourself there.

By the way, police getting shot and killed here IS a big deal. No criminal wants to be labelled a cop killer. In my state (Texas) any crimes with guns involved automatically get the maximum penalty by law, and there's nothing the judge, jury, or attorneys can do to change that. If you shoot a man to death, and it's ruled as wrongful, you'll most likely get the death penalty. There is no plea bargaining or any other recourse for defense in gun crime cases here.

Other states take a different view, but Texas has had alot of problems with gun related crimes, so the state legislature decided to take a hardline stance.

Don't make assumptions based on what you've read or seen on TV. It's better to open yourself to discussion with those that live in the country you're making assumptions about.

Re:Feelings

[ahaning]

Who wants to steal my books anyway?

Me. That's some really easy money. Return stolen books, get cash. No questions.

Re:Get a gun

[Anonymous Coward]

yes but the probability game is best played in the specific case; namely, it doesn't matter a whole lot to me if there is a lower probability of getting shot in GB if I'm still in the P(get_shot) == true pile; I'd rather assure that my probability is as low as possible. [selfish American!]

Enter our beloved 4th Amendment.

That probability goes way down with handgun ownership.

This is true across America: communities where there are CCW laws have consistently lower crime rates.

PS: Once we saw the Zimmerman Memo, we were in. And there you go again... if we defer til we are certain, then we get snipped at by the Euros. If we step forward where we are concerned of a gathering threat, again(!), we get sniped at by the Euros. Just. Can't. Win.

Exercise your quads

[poity]

Seriously.

What can you do? Camouflaging your equipment isn't going to make the way you handle and treat those items any more inconspicuous.

And trying to fight them off will get you hurt or your equipment damaged.

You can only run, and the faster you are the better.

Either that, or stop carrying so much expensive shit around

Re:Carry a gun

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you telling me that since you started downloading music, you have not downloaded one song you liked enough that you would have paid for it, had you not been able to find it on the p2p networks?

Oh, you have? Then your disregard of copyright law has deprived the music store, the record label and the artist of the compensation they were entitled to and would otherwise have received--and that sure sounds like stealing to me.

I steal music too, but unlike you, I don't try to excuse my actions by playing semantic games. Trolling? Perhaps, but you know I'm right.

A summary (and what I do)

[Squeamish Ossifrage]

I'm pretty sure this has all been said before, but I'll try to put it in one place. This is an issue I think about a fair bit, because I'm a computer science grad student and wannabe photographer. Which is to say that I have some stuff that's worth stealing, but am also broke enough that I'd really miss it.

1. Don't carry valuables in a way that makes them identifiable. For example, don't use computer bags, iPod cases, and whatnot. Get a protective sleeve for your laptop and toss it in an ordinary backpack. Stick your iPod (or, in my case, ancient Rio) in a pocket. A backpack crammed with expensive electronic toys looks the same as one full of books and old tin cans.

2. Don't act or look like a good victim. Carrying yourself properly is a whole discussion in itself, so I won't even really try to cover it.

3. Don't dress or act like you've got money. You should be above status symbols anyway, but if you're not, here's another incentive.

4. Remember that your data's probably worth more than your equipment. Always keep good backups, especially for mobile devices. If your data is sensitive, either keep in encrypted or don't put it on portable devices in the first place.

5. Get insurance. Find out what your homeowner's (or renter's) insurance covers, and fork over the extra for "scheduled item" coverage on your portable valuables. I do a lot of photography, and it's infinitely more relaxing to know that if something happens to my stuff, I don't have to worry. The extra cost is somewhere around a couple % of the insured value anually, and the peace of mind is worth it. Good policies even cover accidental loss and breakage, so you're protected from your own stupidity up to a point.

6. If someone *does* mug you, just give them the damned stuff. It's not worth getting hurt over. If you've done 4 and 5, it won't even be that big a deal. But even if you haven't, it's just stuff.

Re:Carry a gun

[sethdelackner]

I am truly amazed at the careless sense of invincibility some posters have shown in this discussion. Take my sensei's advice: when someone demands your wallet, the best escape move is to slowly and calmly remove your wallet and hand it over.

Heresay: My sensei also said that another instructor he knew tried to take down a mugger who had a knife and he ended up dead with multiple stab wounds. This would explain the development of my sensei's simpler "hand it over" technique.

Excersize

[almaon]

This will sound a bit nuts, but I went to school in the inner city. I used to get my butt kicked on a regular basis having to go through rough neighborhoods because of the color of my skin.

Then an old man in that neighborhood gave me some good advice:

"Run, never walk. If you're running they'll either be too slow to react to mess with you or they'll think you're running from the cops and don't want anything to do with you"

I tried it, it worked. The same thing is true of any other sketchy place in the world I've been.

It'll get your lazzy hump into shape quick. Not the most practical in dress shoes, but kept my butt from being black and blue.

Re:Ignorance is bliss...

[WIAKywbfatw]

I'm not making assumptions. It's the hundreds of Americans, many of whom will freely admit that they don't even own a passport, that I read describing Britain as a criminal's paradise everytime guns or violence is discussed on Slashdot or elsewhere that are making the assumptions.

I've been to the US, and for more than just a couple of weeks on holiday. I've got friends and family who live there, some of whom have experienced life on both sides of the pond. None of them has ever told me anything other than what I've said here: most Americans truly do believe that Britain is a violent society, where people live in constant fear of personal violence.

I think you've missed the subtle point I was trying to make though, which was that the "right" to walk around with a deadly weapon doesn't make you or your society safer.

Of course policemen dying in the line of duty make the news everywhere, but it's such a common occurance in the US and such an uncommon one in Britain and the level of attention and shock that such a murder creates in each society reflects that.

A US police officer being gunned down is a minor news story because it's an everyday event, and because a single police officer or civilian being gunned down is nothing out of the ordinary, which is reflective of the level of violence in US society.

However, a UK police officer being stabbed and killed isn't an everyday event. In fact, it's damn rare for a British policeman to be murdered and very out of the ordinary, and, similarly, this is a reflection of the level of violence in British society.

I'm not saying that Britain is crime-free, only that it's a safer place to live than America despite what many Americans are led to believe.

The simplest solutions

[C10H14N2]

1) Backup your data
2) Get Insurance
3) Profit!

Seriously, no matter how depraved the criminal, it comes off as equally as depraved to value your iPod more than a human life -- after all, isn't that what you're ostensibly defending against -- someone who values your iPod more than YOUR life? If it really was your life they were after, that's an even trade, but clearly, what they're after is your stuff, not your life, so taking a life in order to protect your gizmo is the same trade the criminal is making.

Get insurance, take reasonable precautions (like, maybe, don't carry around $6,500 in electro-goodies at 3:30AM in Brixton) and when someone tries to mug you, look at it as an upgrade opportunity. That's what insurance is for and it's cheaper than the lawyer it will take to keep you out of pound-me-in-the-ass-prison when the muggers family sues you for manslaughter.

At the end of the day there's a simple equation: carry around only what you are willing to lose either by accident or by force -- essentially, nothing worth more than you'd be comfortable carrying in your wallet. If it's insured, assume you're carrying your deductible, so $10,000 in stuff is like $500 in cash. When it comes down to $500 or a human life, you'd have to be an absolute barbarian to kill for it.

Pickpockets

[JazFresh]

The comments here so far have concentrated on face-to-face encounters with muggers, but pickpockets are probably a bigger threat in London. If you pull out your wallet, gameboy, PDA, etc on the Tube, sooner or later someone will notice where you stashed it in your bag, get behind you on the escalator, and pilfer it. You will never know. Pickpockets are good at what they do, even some of the most streetwise Londoners I know have been pickpocketed.

Maybe you should get one of those belt chains that were fashionable for wallets a while back, and use them for your PDA and Ipod. Use some superglue and one of those things they use to secure computers to desks if there's no other way to attach it. It won't stop muggers (and if you're too flashy about the chains, it might attract them), but it will stop pickpockets and grab-and-run thieves, including those gypsies that come up to you when you're at a restaurant with some card that explains their sob story (which is just a distraction to pour the objects on the table into their bag).

Everyone I knew in London (myself included) has been a victim of crime there. Chances are, you'll eventually join their ranks.

Re:Feelings

[Anonymous Coward]

Carry your own gun. I carry a nicely concealed .32, loaded with hydraschocks. Any tries to take my stuff, dies.

If this hurts your "feelings", tough. Don't bother me, and I won't bother you.

Re:Maybe you are the problem

[stiggle]

So instead of carrying a small "non-lethal" weapon, the criminals start carrying automatics with deadly rounds in them. You just create an arms race for the criminals and the police.

If "honest" citizens do not carry firearms, then you know that everyone who does IS criminal and can be shot by the police.

In America, its not the criminals you should be afraid of, its the police who shoot you and get away with it.

"Carrying a concealed drivers licence"
"Refusing to spit out gum"
"Carrying a cellphone"

Re:Feelings

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately a lock doesn't do much good when you are being mugged. A guy with a pistol or knife doesn't have to do much to convince me to open a lock.

Hence, time delay locks were invented.

• Don't piss off an idiot with a gun.
• A shot anywhere can be fatal, and don't trust anyone to "shoot off" a lock near your body.
• Only anchor your belongings to a body part which you don't need.
• Stick your precious data in a tiny handheld. Suck it into your disposable laptop as needed. Give up, or drop, or toss it into his now-full-hands, your laptop quickly..and leave.

Re:Carry a gun

[MBraynard]

No, but thieves in denial think they aren't stealing with all kinds of crazy rationalizations.

If it wasn't stealing, the RIAA wouldn't be getting any convictions or settlements.

Re:Maybe you are the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm... Let's suppose, for just a moment, that you will take everyone's guns away. Make it a crime to carry a gun. Ok, now take a deep breath and think about this next one before answering it: Will the thieves also give up their guns? Or will they be empowered because suddenly they are the only ones with guns? Think this one through very carefully.

Criminals are called that because they do not obey the law. Therefore, if all law abiding citizens give up their weapons, those citizens will be without the tools of self-defense, whereas the criminals, who don't obey the law anyway, will keep their weapons for use in their crimes. Not only that, but it will embolden them, knowing that when they pull a gun on someone, that victim will not likewise pull a gun on them. However, if a criminal is fully aware that many people carry concealed weapons, that criminal might think twice before pulling a gun. And if that criminal doesn't think twice, that criminal will get shot, and Darwin's role will have played out.
heres another situation for ya. cop pulls up some dodgy look guy and finds a gun on him. in your fantastic country, the cop can do nothing, its his right to carry a gun even if he looks like a dodgy fucker whos gonna mug your grandma the moment the cop lets him go. now wouldnt it make more sense if you actually gave the police the power to start dissolving the problem?

Re:Feelings

[winwar]

One of the basic rules I learned when I took a self defense course can be roughly summed up as follows: While it is better to avoid a dangerous encounter, if you are in one, do whatever it takes to get out of a dangerous situation intact. If you survive the incident unharmed, then by definition you acted correctly.

The police statements merely prove they are morons or at least out of touch (uniformed police officers don't get mugged very often, know self defense, interact with criminals on a regular basis, and are required to carry weapons when not on duty-not typical of most of the population...). Yes, going along with the demands of a criminal may work most of the time, but if you believe differently at the time, don't follow the police advice blindly-the police aren't going to save your behind...

Re:Carry a gun

[phoenix.bam!]

Copyright infringement is NOT stealing.

Re:Maybe you are the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm... Let's suppose, for just a moment, that you will take everyone's guns away. Make it a crime to carry a gun. Ok, now take a deep breath and think about this next one before answering it: Will the thieves also give up their guns? Or will they be empowered because suddenly they are the only ones with guns? Think this one through very carefully.

Ok.. stop selling bullets then.

Re:Maybe you are the problem

[dave420]

And if those criminals didn't have access to guns, there'd be no problem. You don't think those guns magically appeared in the criminals' christmas stockings, did you? They didn't - they were once legal guns. Take away the legal guns, and the illegal guns disappear too. Train your police to be as effective, if not moreso, than an armed civilian, and you've got no excuse. Don't be fooled into thinking person+gun=crime fighter. Unless that person has suitable training (which, the last time i checked, doesn't come included with the gun) they are more of a threat to themselves and their loved ones than to criminals. Being alive doesn't qualify you as someone deemed worthy of owning a device whos purpose is SOLELY to kill a person. You need to be seriously vetted to determine that, then trained to make sure you know how to use it responsibly. Look at crime statistics in the US, and compare them to other countries. I'm not just talking michael-moore-esque statistics, but entire crime statistics. You'll see the US is way up there. Guns are the problem. Inept, dumb police are more of a problem, as if they did their jobs correctly, no non-cop would need a gun. Guns don't help anyone. Certainly not if they're being used by some guy off the street. People get attracted to the power they think they have from guns. They get the whole rambo mentality going on. In real life, that doesn't lead to anything good. Just dead innocent people in the street. I know if I'm ever in trouble, the last thing I want is a gun. The first thing I want is a cop.

Re:Carry a gun

[andreMA]

Or perhaps simply appear to be armed. Wear a shoulder holster in the summer and leave your jacket unbuttoned, etc. NOTE: don't move quickly while talking to policemen

Simply carrying yourself in a self-assured manner is useful: walk briskly, with a purpose; wear a determined look on your face.

Mace or something makeshift (e.g., a paper packet of cayenne pepper you can rip open while still in your pocket then throw in the assailant's face) is an option too. If you do so, step in the direction of the assailant's dominant hand while doing so; shooting/stabbing "outboard" is much less accurate than "inboard"

If you can devise a secure method of carrying it, household ammonia in the face will tend to discourage people too, as will many other common chemicals: hydrochloloric (muriatic) acid, vinegar, drain cleaner, etc. If you use any of these methods and manage to disengage, I'd recommend not contacting the police afterwards, unless there were obvious witnesses. The mugger is unlikely to report it, and hopefully learned a lesson.

Re:Maybe you are the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Will the thieves also give up their guns?

Where do you think thieves get their guns? By banning guns, you're cutting off their biggest supply.

As has been pointed out before: look at the correlation between gun ownership and crime. Does it bear out your argument?

Re:Ignorance is bliss...

[miyako]

Explain the USA PATRIOT Act in that context then, please.
Because most americans also belive that ignorance is bliss, and it seems that americans in general also belive that thought is a finite resource, the result is a lot of people who belive they are getting freedom because they are told so and refuse to exert any thought to come up with an alternate conclusion.

Re:Carry a gun

[IronChef]

In fact, one of the things a prosecuting lawyer (even in an obvious self defense shoot) will try to get you on is whether your ammunition was specifically designed to kill someone. Some of the best self defense ammunition such as "Hydra-shoks" and "Black Talon" will make the jury think that you meant to kill someone...

A good point.

A friend of mine has always carried what the local police carry. That way, were he ever on the stand, he would claim that he chose to use what the police used as he believed it was the best (safest, whatever) choice.

Of course, if you end up in a civil trial, reason goes out the window and God help you.

Obligatory Simpsons reference:

MOE: ... luckily, I was able to shoot him in the spine, or it could have gotten real ugly.

Re:Carry a gun

[Ithika]

What you are saying is that you care not for these trappings of the modern world, this road network, electricity and telephonic communications, (the viniculture, the aquaducts,) farmed food and a legal system to protect you.

Because "fuck civilization" man, I want to live in the stone age! I want to worry my whole life about defending myself from attackers, finding enough firewood and a dry cave without any bears in it, and hunting all my food. But hey, at least I won't have to pay all those damn commie taxes!

The rest of the world can enjoy fine wines, home entertainment systems and silk sheets on the bed, but damn you all I DON'T LIKE CIVILISATION! I'm a real man and I can rip your throat out.

But then again, in a world without civilised society I wouldn't get any dried frog pills...

"be prepared for anything at any time from anybody, don't take no shit, always stand your ground. people wanna come up to me and run their mouth - guess what? i'll throw them through the fucking window... i won't think a thing of it."
-- BBF3, Godspeed You Black Emperor!

Re:Ignorance is bliss...

[Afrosheen]

Now we finally understand each other.

Despite the statistics to the contrary, most of us will never be a victim of violent crime, or witness a violent crime.

Re:Maybe you are the problem

[Nahor]

Hmmm... Let's suppose, for just a moment, that you will take everyone's guns away. Make it a crime to carry a gun. Ok, now take a deep breath and think about this next one before answering it: Will the thieves also give up their guns? Or will they be empowered because suddenly they are the only ones with guns? Think this one through very carefully.

Did you think that one through? If we follow through your reasonning, what you are basically suggesting is to banish all laws because criminals don't obey them anyway.

Re:Carry a gun

[denzo]

Heresay: My sensei also said that another instructor he knew tried to take down a mugger who had a knife and he ended up dead with multiple stab wounds. This would explain the development of my sensei's simpler "hand it over" technique.

This assumes that the generalization of 'just handing it over' is going to keep you alive. I've heard of enough cases where the mugger went ahead and killed their muggee after they handed over all their belongings. This doesn't happen all of the time (maybe even significantly less that 50%), but it happens none-the-less.

I'd run the heck the in the opposite direction yelling for help, that should frighten 90% of your average criminals enough to flee. If they have a gun, being a moving, more-distant target will make their chances of actually hitting you drop significantly. Just look at the statistics of *trained* police officers shooting; how do you think a thug with no firearms training is going to hit you from 100+ feet away?

Re:off-site backups --not just for corporations

[strider_starslayer]

So you want him to sit, during the night, for 8+ hours, when people only come in the store every ten to fifteen minutes, half of them being drunk, stones, or otherwise suspicious looking to begin with, since there comming into a convience store late at night- and somehow pick the weird freek who wants to buy 'giant-jugs-and-shit' from the guy who has a small gun in his pocket and is going to point that at you before the one goes to the porn stand and the other walks up to the register calmly like he wants to buy cigarettes and then says 'empy the register'.

His job is simply to ring up there purchases when they come though, and hand over the money when they get held up- literally. A friend of mind woked at 7-11, and his job training included 'what to do in the event of a hold up', and do you know what it is; Hand over the money, wait until they leave and then call the cops- because doing anything else gets you killed.

Heck maby he could have picked out the mugger, lets just say that he can- then what!?! He can see the mugger, he can see him comming, you have 15 seconds what are you going to do- trigger the alarm? To what end- either the cops are going to arrive long after he's gone, or worse- there going to arrive while he's in the store, with a gun pointed at your face while your putting cash in the bag, then he's going to get scared, and then he's going to figure out that YOU triggered some sort of silent alarm, and then he's going to mad a YOU, and scared, and have a gun; This is not a constructive situation.

Maby you want him to have his own gun, and get into a firefight, in the convience store, over a paltry sum of $250 in the register that the owner figures will be lost to robberies as a cost of doing buisness anyway

Let me sumarize; You have missed the point.

The contents of the register are not worth loosing your life over, there not worth getting in a confrontation with a twitchy mugger, there not worth much at all- let the mugger have it, call the cops afterwards, and let the surveliance cameras do the rest of the work.

Carrying self, recognizing dangerous situations.

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

>All of this is pure bullshit.

Researchers have shown videos of people walking on the street to imprisoned muggers. The researchers asked each mugger which pedestrian he would pick as a target.

The muggers's answers were almost perfectly correlated. Like any predator they begin by sizing up their target. Like any businessman they want transactions to go smoothly. They will target people who are unaware of their surroundings and likely to freeze like a deer in the headlights.

TWO MAJOR RULES

1. Try to avoid the fringes of populated areas. The middle of a crowd is full of witnesses and obstacles. The deserted area far outside a crowd doesn't have enough targets. Muggers will cluster in that in-between zone.

2. If you get an irrational feeling of danger, for no perceptible or logical reason, ACT ON IT. Your mind does tons of processing outside your conscious awareness. Don't stay in a situation because you "know" it's OK if your instincts tell you otherwise.
Over and over, victims of violent crime report that they felt uneasy or had a hunch something was wrong before they were attacked. Those feelings come from a security mechanism with hundreds of millions of years of R&D behind it. Honor that mechanism.
If you're out with a significant other, make a deal ahead of time that if either of you whispers "we need to leave here *now*" you'll zip out with no discussion.

Except in the real world ...

[MarkTina]

.. you discover that you're a fat, balding computer geek who get's out of breath when climbing the stairs! The mind might be willing but the body sure as hell won't! :-)

For what it's worth...

[baximus]

If I lived somewhere and was in fear of being mugged simply by walking around the streets, I'd have two options:

1. Move to a safer neighbourhood
2. Don't carry all my stuff around with me

Just a thought ;)

Re:Ignorance is bliss...

[ratsnapple tea]

OK, I'll grant you the Patriot Act. But you seem to be implying that people outside America enjoy greater personal freedoms. Where?

Not Spain, which is notorious for banning political parties that push for regional independence. Not France, whose restrictions on journalism have attracted the ire of the European Court on Human Rights (and let's not forget its little headscarf problem). Not Germany, which along with France bans many forms of hate speech and considers the sale of Nazi artifacts a criminal offense. Perhaps one of the Scandinavian countries? After all, they rank at the top of Reporters Sans Frontières' press freedom index. But then again, it's impossible to earn anything there without half of it being taken away by the state. Sure, we could argue about whether taxation really constitutes a violation of "liberty," but then we'd be diving straight into a moral and philosophical bog where semantics float facedown in their own slippery juices and practical justice lies forgotten, suffocating deep beneath the surface.

When it comes to liberty, America's version surely leaves much to be desired. But you're dead wrong when you claim "the good ol' USA isn't even in the running."

Your charge of endemic racism has merit; however, I challenge you to find a society anywhere in the world lucky enough not to count discrimination among its ills. Please don't bother citing places without significant minority populations, as even in these countries racial tensions have become disturbingly apparent, given the relative lack of interracial mixing as compared to American society: Turks in Germany, Muslims in France (that headscarf thing again), non-Japanese in Japan. Across Europe, xenophobia is becoming increasingly evident as nations open their borders to immigrants and foreign workers (remember Pim's legacy!). Things are little better elsewhere in the world; even Brazil's supposed racial harmony is largely mythical. One could argue that at least America's racial tensions are in the open, a matter of public debate--not swept under the carpet and ignored, the way they are in much of Europe and Asia.

Ultimately, liberty is in the eye of the beholder, as is the comfortable balance between chaos and order (which I think is what you were referring to by your "perfect state" comment). Singapore can a great place to live, if you value order and discipline above the personal freedoms you'd have elsewhere. I personally wouldn't want to live there, but I'm sure that many Singaporeans find it liberating to be ensured clean sidewalks and elevators. This opinion based on having been close friends with at least three Singaporeans in my lifetime.

Just throwing that out there.

Re:Maybe you are the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah thank you. At least some sanity!

If someone rub me I absolutely prefer to hand over my 3000 laptop than shooting him, EVEN if I got away with it. I don't to be a murder just for trying to protect a stupid computer. There is NO way I can justify to myself that his life is worth less than my computer!

Seriously guys, I dont WANT a gun the potentual cost is simply way too high!

Cheerios
Peter

Alpha Male + Fake Wallet

[SlightOverdose]

Most people only seem to consider two options- 1) Blow muggers head off 2) Give them your cash

Heres my advice.

The first thing to do when walking in bad areas late at night is to strut. Get yourself into the frame of mind of "I'm a sex God", and try and act like it. If you can pull it off, most men will become subservient to you. (... and woman will see this and find you attractive, regardless of how ugly you are).

This works because you are essentially conveying the message that you are an Alpha Male, and has a huge low level psychological effect on other men. You can't fake this (as it relies on many subtle things like pheremones), but if you can get yourself into the right frame of mind it works. (Not to mention woman will start to chat YOU up)

Chances are, most slashdot geeks have been on the receiving end of it, so you know how it affects you physically and psychologically . (In my case it helps that I'm 6'5 and work out at the gym).

As a plan B, I carry a fake wallet around with about $10 in it and some old expired credit cards etc. Since I carry nothing else of value on me (Except my Nokia 3315, which is only worth $AU99), I can just throw the wallet a few metres away (to distract them) and run. Both partys win.

Parent must be a troll; can't possibly be serious

[Anonymous Coward]

Lemme see if I've got this right.

You are more offended at the idea that the parent assumed that most geeks were white than you are at the idea that by darkening one's skin, one would be less likely to be a victim?

Bizarro.

Maybe this'll help you sleep at night: the short answer to your question is, "yes, the vast majority geeks are Caucasian (which includes Indians) or Asian; there are very few black geeks (relatively speaking)." There are also very few female geeks (relatively speaking) but you don't hear the girls crying every time someone refers to some imagined (geeks == male) tautology.

Re:better

[nick_davison]

I would never, ever consider moving somewhere where I couldn't. It just demonstrates a government's utter contempt for its citizenry. I guess we'll never be neighbors.

Actually, it demonstrates the British government's utter consideration it has for its citizens. Neither you, nor you gun, will ever move to London.

And when your nearest major city can get its gun related murders in a week down to England's yearly total for the whole country, then the English might start to believe the claims that a prevalence of firearms make the place safer.

Re:I concealed carry a 40 caliber firearm

[Omerna]

First, the BoJ statistics end in 1996. The gun ban was passed in 1997. Ummm... let's ignore that link.

Second, compare things the gun ban will actually AFFECT. I'm talking about murder by handguns, etc. The UK rate is way lower, as I said. Burglary and what not (how most people are affected) probably won't change as most burglars aren't going to rob a house when anybody's home to actually use the gun.

It's really easy to throw around misleading statistics (as you did) but when you look at the statistics that are affected by the gun ban you'll see an entirely different picture.

Re:Feelings

[operagost]

I have to agree. There are very small, light 9mm pistols out there with far more stopping power. It makes no sense to pack poor calibers such as .32 and *shudder* .25. I carry a Kel-tec P11. Not the best, but reliable, good value, and it's not so squirrely that I can't perforate some punk's left ventricle when he right in front of me.

I'd rather carry a .22 derringer under each sleeve and go all wild-west-poker-table on their ass!

Re:Look Alert

[aralin]

I have several tips for the folks in large metro areas:

Speedwalk:

Walk faster than people around you do. Its extremly hard to pick pocket someone who walks fast and when you try it, it stands out in the crowd a lot, two people walking fast.

Invisibility:

If you cannot see them, they really cannot see you. If your mind actively registers a person, its five times more likely that he will notice you. Don't ask me why, its some subconscious trick, but it works. Acting upon noticing (like crossing to the other sidewalk) makes it five times more likely for the other to act upon it too.

Be ordinary:

Dont wear anything that stands out. That goes for clothes, bags, accessories. The more ordinary you look, the easier to be invisible.

No weapons:

If you carry a weapon, you get automagically an alert state of mind that transfers to people around. You sort of radiate "I'm danger" around you. Cocealed weapon is the worst you can do, since you just radiate and do not deter.

Know terrain:

Be sure that you know the location where you move around, know the spots where its more likely to be mugged, know where you can hide, know where to run at all times.

Re:Get a gun

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's something from your link :

Criminologists believe that a note of caution needs to be introduced into analysis of the data, because of the different ways in which UN member countries record crimes.

So FWIW, this study is not worth much.

Re:What about...

[phrasebook]

How will you lose any of your own self respect if you hand over your possessions to avoid being injured? It's up to you whether you respect yourself or not. If another person can take it away from you - or you need a gun just to feel it - then you've got issues dude.

Re:Carry a gun

[innerspacemonkey]

Doesn't matter if you're as good as Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee. If you get into fight with someone who holds a knife you WILL get cut (If you're good you will survive it). Having martial arts training would teach you this. Choose your battles. Your wallets not worth it.

Ignorance [Truly must be] bliss...

[Serzen]

And you must be one happy individual.

Policeman dying in the US may be a common occurance, when one considers the vast SIZE of the US, but when you view individual areas of the US, you get a whole different story.

The area where I live is not a bustling population center, but it has a fairly large population, and as such, a fairly large police population. In the past, I'd say, six or eight years, five officers have been killed in the line of duty. Two were gunned down while serving a warrant on a drug lab and three shot to death while investigating a car that turned out to have been involved in a robbery.

Not only did these killings make the front page of all the papers, and become the primary stories on the evening news, but they STAYED front page/top story material for about three days, and even after were not far from the spotlight as the killers were found and brought into custody. The community mourned the loss, and even helped to search for the suspects, helped to provide money to one of the widows, etc.

Similarly (sp?), in the same six or eight years, there have been, all told, perhaps 10 homicides, and only about 12 very violent assaults. Violent crime simply does not occur with all that frequency. I live less than three hours drive from several major East Coast cities, and there's plenty of traffic from all of them through my area, so it's not as though we're isolated here, and free from criminal activity; drugs, theft and vandalism are big problems, particularly drugs, as the location makes the area a crossroads for transporting things all through the area.

When taken as a whole, yes, the United States is rife with violent crime, but when considered per capita, I highly doubt that it's as severe a problem as you seem to think.

Re:Carry a gun

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

Okay, then what, exactly, is the purpose of martial arts? If they don't give you an edge in combat then there's no practical reason beyond exercise for learning them, right?

If you're talking about something like boxing ( little B ), I would agree, but many martial arts, particularly Chinese martial arts, encompass systems of philosophy, ethics, lifestyle and religion. Physical exertion, fighting and exercise help to shape the mind, but the consummate martial artist should hope to eventually move beyond having to make their point with force.

I don't have the book with me, but in a history of Hsing-I I recently read, the introduction mentions that a desire to learn fighting skills is not always an appropriate reason to start Boxing, because it confesses a lack of faith in ones abilities to solve problems peacefully. Whether this is naivete on the authors part, I leave to you, but I agree that the goal of a Boxing student should be personal growth, not just being able to snap someones ribs with the palm of your hand. YMMV.

YLFI

Re:May not be for you, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's my 2 cents (for the record I'm female, a geek and have studied psychology):

The reason that women prefer a guy they see in a bar with another woman over a guy with his (male) mates is that they want a "reference". The message our subconscious minds receive is that the guy with a woman (friend OR romantic interest) must treat women well enough that he's worth spending time with. He is perceived as being a "quality" kinda guy because we trust the other woman's judgement.

Re:Feelings

[Nakamiya]

being stabed hurts but the stitches cost less than a new laptop

Re:Not a problem here

[ralfg33k]

The criminal, by definition, has already decided that. By violating the laws of the society in which he lives, the criminal has decided that those laws are of no value. Those laws are what codify the value of life in that society. Those laws could protect him, too, but if he chooses to act outside of those laws, then that protection is forfeited (IMHO). Your statement seems to imply that it's OK for someone to go through life feeling victimized. [Sob..sniffle..sob]

And spare me the granola-crunching b.s. about how *all* life everywhere is valuable -- go tell it to the Chinese, whose troops fired on unarmed kids in Tienamien Square, and whose policy is to off babies as they're being born when their parents exceed some gov't quota.

Remember, this isn't about the 19-year-old who gets caught sipping a beer in a place where the drinking age is 21. We're talking about violent criminals here.

Re:Carry a gun

[takshaka]

Shoot him somewhere not fatal. What can he do, call the cops and press charges?

He can shoot you somewhere fatal.

Carry a gun - Madness

[Alienation Capitalis]

You guys are all insane, just think of all the bad karma you are going to generate.

Guns are so C20th

Here is an idea: take all the money you would spend on the gun and training and administration and spend it on some insurance. Then IF you get mugged you get to say "here you go, enjoy the ipod, I really like the 1st track on the third album, have a nice day" and then upgrade all your gear, your laptop will be 25% faster, larger and generally better and all the crap you have been meaning to delete of the HDD for months will be gone.

Re:Carry a gun

[Radworker]

There is one thing I have learned over the years. The military tought it to me first, NEVER threaten with a gun! If my weapon cleared leather, I would have already determined that I had need/justification to shoot. I would draw, aim center of mass and pull the trigger. Pointing a weapon that you do not intend on shooting will get you killed. I would not pull a weapon just because someone "asked" me for my wallet. If they had a weapon, THEY and not me have already escalated the level to lethal force. All fifty states allow one to respond to force with an equal force. The reason I would shoot would not be that they were attempting to mug me but, that they had treatened my life with a weapon.

Dress down..

[Anonymous Coward]

I dress in a crappy jacket.
I hide everything in crappy bags.
I wear a Barbie hat.
I only shave once a week.
I am not ashamed to talk to myself in public while working out coding problems.

I look either insane or too poor to be worth mugging.

I have lived in the inner city for 20 years and I walk almost everywhere - even late at night.

It works.

Re:Guns are for wimps -- How to be Invisible

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, the tricks for avoiding muggers are in total opposition of the tricks for attracting potential mates. Do you wanna get mugged *and* fucked, or neither?

Re:Carry a gun

[MidnightBrewer]

Maybe you're learning the wrong martial art. In aikido, we're taught how to fight someone no matter what weapon they're wielding or style they're using. The one exception would be if the guy is carrying a gun.

It is common to tell beginners that the best solution is to give in peacefully, because (as beginners) they're likely to get themselves killed thinking that they know a martial art, hence can handle the situation. That, and when the police start asking questions, they can plausibly say, "It's not like we didn't warn them."

A man with a knife threatening you is combat. Saying that learning a martial art means learning to move past the point where you need to fight is great and all, but there is no way on God's green earth that my sensei would give some idiot with a knife his wallet.

If you're looking for noble Oriental philosophy, at least higher-level practitioners have mastered the self-control to decide how much they have to hurt their opponent in order to defeat them. Here in Japan, a martial art is there to act as a means to defend yourself in combat. That's why police are required to show proficiency in either kendo or judo in order to advance, and why both are taught as basic curriculum in high schools.

In our dojo, they tell you, "If you seek spiritual enlightment, go to a temple. If you seek to learn to fight, go to war. If you seek both, you're in the right place."

If I am going some where I dont trust

[Anonymous Coward]

Number one you will not find more than $50 in my wallet.

Number two a nice walking stick note I don't need it it is a dress thing suit and a nice black walking stick with a gold trim(at the same point they use to break to display a sword).

Please note a Knife does not matchup to a walking stick most thiefs forget it. Note it is worse than a unbrella as it also has a large head and a small point at the other end that is great to slam on someones foot close to equal to a high head it can break bones in a persons foot stoping them in there track. Or driven into the chest will kill.

Note carrying a gun is not worth it Number one you have to draw it walking stick is already drawn. Walking stick beats knife walking stick is visiable no licence smart thief stays away stupid thief kicks walking stick before drawing weapon.(note I am not leaning on it with any force) Most case a person with a gun will draw it first by the time you draw yours you will be shot. If lucky a thief with get careless and a walking stick still wins.

Basicly learn how to fight with a walking stick you can beat the crap out of anyone who attacks first even if they have a walking stick execpt with a gun what you will not stand a chance against unless you get lucky.

Basic rules number one not a hidden weapon they can see so they can choose to aviod you where with a gun they can not see so they don't have the chance to pick aviod. The stick is part of the cloths I am wearing ie a suit and walking stick looks good some versions are also your seat verry handy at times. Also a suit provides a lot of internal pockets to hide stuff my hand held and my music system. Standard walkman headphones don't stand out due to leads running inside suit coat.

Also a simple switch link mobile phone head phones to a player only hearing half the music can save time just the same.

Re:A summary (and what I do)

[Cruciform]

If you're on even footing, then by all means resist.

If they pull a gun, take something of valuable and toss it AT THEIR FEET.

When their eyes leave you, run like hell putting as many obstacles between you and them as possible.

Unless they're a trained shot, they have about a 10 % chance of hitting you, compared to a virtual bullseye at close range.

And this was instructions given to a bunch of us at a youth group self defense symposium by a veteran cop years ago.

Still seems like good sense now.

You can take your chances at hand to hand if you want, but a guy with a gun is just too unpredictable.

Re:Concealed handgun

[pauldy]

Oh, and I do realize this guy is from UK but I think the US should lead on this one as their laws are not already protected constitutionally as ours are. Texas is a good example of how this works as I walk around with an e805 with CF GPS on my waste with a cell phone and occasionally carry a laptop and I have yet to have a problem even in some rough areas because they don't know if I have a gun or not.

Re:A summary (and what I do)

[Squeamish Ossifrage]

This is a bit off-topic, but why not. I'd e-mail you, but your address isn't listed.

There are a few things I'd knowingly die for, and a good number more that I'd take a risk on. But my laptop's not one of them. And neither is trying to be a deterrent to muggers. So if someone's trying to take my stuff, I'll do whatever seems the safest.

You make the good point that as a matter of self-preservation you shouldn't "give up control" or let someone put you into a dangerous situation. That's true, but you need some common sense. You seem to suggest that handing over my backpack is tantamount to handing over my life. That's just dumb. Throwing down my wallet isn't giving up control. It's giving up my wallet. I still have the same options and capabilities (well, less a few financial ones) that I had before.

There are two different possibilities, and you need to consider both of them:

Possibility A: The crook really just wants your stuff. They don't intend to hurt you, but might well do so if startled or threatened. Giving him/her the stuff and getting the hell out of there is probably your best bet.

Possibility B: The crook intends to hurt you. Going along with them only helps them to do so.

You have to figure out which it is when the situation happens. I'm not an expert, so I don't claim to know what you should do here. What I've been told, and it makes sense to me, is this: If they're asking for stuff, that's probably what they want. Being robbed is common, being assaulted out of the blue by a stranger is very rare. Put the stuff on the ground and try to leave. If they try to stop you, run if you can and fight if you have to. If the mugger tells you to do something that would weaken your position (like getting into a car, or going somewhere with them), that's a bad sign, and you should (again) run if you can and fight if you have to.

I'm not against fighting: I'll fight for my beliefs, for the people I care about, and to protect myself. But I'm not going to fight for my laptop, my bus pass or 8 bucks in cash.

Re:I concealed carry a 40 caliber firearm

[jlanthripp]

Even if that DID happen the ONLY smart thing to do would be to drop the gun and give up.

Hypothetical situation: 7 thugs armed with knives surround me with intent to rob and kill me (because dead men can't identify their attackers to the police). My S&W revolver only holds 6 rounds. Why do they not kill me? Because the first one to attack will be the first to die. None of them wants to be the first to die.

And they can protect themselves much more safely by just calling the police.

Find the post in this discussion about a 1974 ruling that says the police have no obligation to defend the public from criminals.

If I'm in a situation where my life is being immediately threatened by someone, yet somehow manage to pull out my phone and place a call to the police before I'm killed, I'll probably be put on hold for a while. If I manage to survive long enough, with the physical disadvantage of having one hand occupied holding my phone to my ear, I'll eventually get to tell some overworked dispatcher that I'm being attacked, and give them my location (if I know the address). Moving right along, I can now look forward to a 15-30 minute wait until one officer shows up to scrape my corpse up from the pavement. It should be nice and cool to the touch by then.

Or, I could just take a second or two to shoot my attacker, then pull out the phone and call the police.

It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Re:Feelings

[Anonymous Coward]

You should read a few crime statistics and learn how to aim, or hope You never run into some who can aim. More people are killed with .22 caliber handguns than any other caliber. .22's, 25's, 32's, they are all capable of killing, perhaps not as effectively as a .45ACP or 9x19mm, but dead is dead. Compare it to the difference between a pocket knife and a hunting knife. Both will kill effectively enough. The victim of the former might take a little while longer to bleed to death, but in the end, they are just as dead.

Re:Feelings

[rock_climbing_guy]

I read a good take on dealing with criminals in an NRA-published magazine once. They had a story about a lady who was murdered by a stalker. A so-called victim's advocacy group encouraged her to leave everything to the police if he ever bothered her again. Then, the next time the stalker came around, she called the police, not wanting to confront the stalker herself.

The author eloquently explained that she waited the rest of her life for the police to show up.

Re:Feelings

[stretch0611]

I'm 6'2" tall, I have long black hair, a bullring style nose ring, a scuffed black leather jacket, a motorcycle and a visible knife clipped to my pocket.

First, Kill the Nose Ring. That would be the first thing I would yank and I doubt it would feel good.

Second, grow a little, I'm 6'11" and I'm sure that helps little more than a measly 6'2".

Third, while I do have a black leather jacket that doesn't do a thing. It's the body underneath the jacket that matters. If you have no muscles the jacket won't help.

listen asshole...

[Anonymous Coward]

...those people had no idea that they were going to be murdered, or that by not fighting back, they would be "laying down like lambs" while thousands of others died.

your comments suggest that the people on those flights that hit the twin towers should have known, and could have prevented the deaths of thousands if only they would not have been so "tolerant of bad guys".

The terrorists who highjacked those flights certainly were lying, and intimidating the passengers - probably threatening the use of a bomb or the likes. It was not as if they were announcing to everyone that "Hey, myself and four others are going to uses these 1 inch razor blades and take on all 100 + of you passengers. We have plans of crashing this plane into the world trade centers and aim to kill thousands and thousands of your countrymen."

don't be such a god damned idiot.

Re:May not be for you, but...

[dcam]

Women want what they can't have. A guy with a girlfriend immediately means that he:
1. is able to commit to some extent
2. Capable of some sort of relationship

Re:Feelings

[nametaken]

I've got an even easier one. Move to the damn suburbs. There's nothing of value in a city anyways, except for maybe a job in a neighborhood where you don't have to worry about muggers anyways. Then you go home at night to a place where you can leave your house and car unlocked with your ipod on the dash.

Re:Feelings

[cammoblammo]

The comment's not racist. The poster was having a shot at people who are scared of blacks and cops who don't believe they can be rich.

Just because a joke uses racial traits doesn't make it racist, or even offensive.

cool calculating women..

[MikeFM]

Yeah. I find it a bit odd that women are so calculating about dating. To often even women you're close to will judge you by how much money you make. It really bothers me actually. I don't care if I'm making a lot or a little.. I don't want my work life and my income to define who I am or my relationships. Funny me for wanting to base relationships off love and respect.

The effectiveness of flashing cash to pick up girls makes me wonder why prostitution is illegal. If a woman only goes out with you because you have money how is that any better than trading sex for cash?

Re:its all about the accessories

[Dwonis]

Why not go all the way and actually try to look like either a robber or cop.

If you look like a robber, you'll probably get annoyed by the cops. If you look like a cop, you'll probably get annoyed by the robbers.

Re: Shooting to wound

[SillyNickName4me]

> BTW, all cops, everywhere that I know

This just begs for a response. 'Everywhere that I know' happens to also include that part of the world thats not inside the USA (yet) ?

If it is then you are absolutely and completely wrong.

In quite a few places in Europe, icluding the part where I happen to live (the Netherlands), police is taught to shoot to kill ONLY if they had no other options whatsoever, and are taught to STOP what is going on usign the least amount of force possible.

Incidentely (check the CIA world fact book on it if you like) we also have:
1. less people killed in general
2. less people killed by police use of violence
3. less policemen killed by violence
4. less robbery with use of violence
5. lower crime rate in general then the USA.

And yes, we also have banned weapons from daily life, tho it is very well possible to have one for sports or hunting.

Interestingly, Spain follows a lot closer the rules as they are in the USA, and also turns out having by far the highest rate of violent robberies and people gettign killed by violence of all of western EUrope (actually, only Poland and some parts of eastern EUrope come close to it, and don't surpass it yet)

The point is that there is a statistical relationship between amount of violence and how a society deals with weapons.

That relation nowhere shows that places that have weapons readily available to civilians are safer, rather, it shows the exact opposite.

You may feel safer havign your conceiled gun permit, but realize it is tjust that, you FEEL safer, in fact you are not.

I again suggest reading up a bit on the numbers, the CIA factbook is a nice patriotic source for the Americans among you who say this is all just the bs from the anti-gun lobby.

Re:Carry a gun

[varjag]

Is it really that hard to understand that the gun is a deterrent, not a 'thugicide'?

Drawing a gun always escalates situation. If the attacker chooses to respond, very likely one of you will end up dead or seriously wounded, with 50/50 chance. Your marksman and gun handling skills aren't really that important in such a stressful situation; if anything, actual combat experience would help, but I don't think many people have it. Are you really willing to play that lottery?

When you pull a gun (hopefully after taking one or more courses in lethal force usage) you are sending a message to the criminal : this episode is over.

Or, the message is: fuck, he's got a gun, shoot!

You seem to ignore many factors: how dumb your opponent is, how much guts he have, how many of companions he got, is he on drugs...

Never pull a gun unless you absolutely determined to use it.

Re:Carry a gun

[EnglishTim]

Okay, then what, exactly, is the purpose of martial arts? If they don't give you an edge in combat then there's no practical reason beyond exercise for learning them, right?

Oh, I'm quite sure that it gives you an edge in combat. However, the point that almost everyone replying to this post seems to have missed is that it won't make you invulnerable. Sure, it might meant that 7 times out of 10 the sensei would have kicked the mugger's ass, but those other three times the mugger manages to do enough damage with his knife that the sensei is seriously disadvantaged and then killed.

Sure, martial arts may increase your chances, but that doesn't mean that you won't die horribly if you're unlucky.

'course, giving over the cash is no guarantee of not dying horribly either...

Re:Feelings

[EnglishTim]

You gotta wonder though what makes a mugger decide to pick on the guy all dressed up in armour. I mean, what the fuck? If a guy is walking around in public in medieval armour, what the hell else might he do? You'd have thought the mugger would go after someone more normal-looking...

Re:Feelings

[RoyalCheese]

Umm.. good thing the mugger wasn't high... normal rules of behaviour can be VERY suspended.

Re:Be Aware

[glesga_kiss]

I completely disagree with you. I wear headphones all the time to avoid trouble. You can simply ignore anyone who shouts or speaks to you as you walk past. In order to get your attention, they need to get right in front of you, which cuts out all but the most determined agressor. Many muggings start with innocent questions like "do you have the time?" or "do you have a light?", basically you can avoid getting into them.

Of course, don't have the music on too loud, you still need to hear what's going on around you.

Re:Feelings

[Lord_Byron]

And then you will go to jail, "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this vicious killer gunned down the victim (otherwise known as mugger) with a totally unnecessary 6 rounds of 'cop killer'* hollowpoint bullets. Then, then! I can hardly believe the murderous intent! He stopped, paused, had time to reflect as he reloaded his weapon and again, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG! emptied it into the helpless victim!" OK, so maybe the judge won't allow such histronics, but an enhanced lethality round won't help you in court, and if the guy isn't still a threat after you reload, maybe you should go to jail.

And if he is still a threat after 6? Maybe you should reconsider your load & train until your shot placement is reasonable.

Of course, better tried by 12 than carried by 6, but there is no reason to not attempt to avoid both!

* yes, I know 'cop-killer' bullets are supposed to be armor piercing, but facts rarely play into this.

Re:Theft - Insurance

[RogerWilco]

Europe is quite a save place, a lot less murder/robbery etc. as in the USA on average AFAIK.
But we do get a lot of tourists, and all the mayor tourist attractions have a high pick-pocketing rate.

- Tourists tend to stand out from the crowd (both clothing and sound (another language)
- Their attention is focused on other things
- They are not at home in the surrounding and therefore less able to spot something out of the ordinairy
- Most tourists are comparitively wealthy ( they were able to travel and finance their accomodation)
- tourists carry around expensive equipement (camera's)
- tourists have a lot of money on them because the had to change their currency for the local one.

A few tips I have found usefull when visiting other countries:
- Dress like the local popupation, no shorts/t-shirt, when everybody wears a long sleeved shirt and long trousers.
- have two wallets, one reachable with a little money, that you use when in public, and one with your passport/main stash of money, that you cary on your body beneath your clothes.
- learn some of the local language. Being able to order your beer and pay in the local language makes a huge difference in how much you pay in a lot of places. And you do not stand out from the crown so much. And if you are lost in some african city, it helps a lot if you can ask directions (it did for me).
- Walk like you know where you are going. Do not have maps visible on you.
- Do not have your valuables in sight. Use a lockable backpack in preference to a shoulder bag, as it can not be grabbed as easily.

Even with a different skin colour, if you look like you belong somewhere you are a lot less likely to become a target IMHO.

OT.
Oh and one last thing to think about: a lot of people in poor countries tend to think all western people are increadibly rich, because the only ones that they see are the ones that could afford the 14 day african safari with ***** service.

Re: Shooting to wound

[Anonymous Coward]

> Interestingly, Spain follows a lot closer the rules as they are in the USA

Which rules do you mean? Which part of Spain have you been to? Mexico? Colombia? You don't seem to know what you're talking about. Just quit smoking *that*.

Re:Carry a gun

[Quila]

England, being a civilized sort of place, does not allow guns.

It's funny that all this mugging and criminals with guns only really took off after England banned guns. Really civilized.

be prepared

[Anonymous Coward]

Lift weights.
Carry less stuff.
Never be drunk or preoccupied in public.
Traverse all NEW routes ahead of time at least once (never carry valuables someplace you have never been).
Travel with buddies.
Have a fake valuable to hand over (throw down!) while you run off.
Always have a plan.
Never show fear.
Carry a weapon (loud noise maker, pepper spray, knife, roll of quarters, SOMETHING).
Use a walking stick - heavy, solid - e.g. oak.
Be prepared.

Re:Maybe you are the problem

[Robawesome]

Fine, so you prefer to be helpless to rapists and murderers and nazis.

If your grandmother is raped in front of your eyes, reassure yourself that "the potential cost is way too high".

And when the guy kills her afterwards, remember that you are the better man for standing by and doing nothing.

So you don't mind you and your loved ones murdered and raped. Fine. Less stupid people to pass on their genes. I warn you, however, that I will not give up MY weapons while I still live.

If you want my gun(s), you'll have to kill me first. And that won't be easy, especially for somebody helpless like you..

Re:Maybe you are the problem

[Robawesome]

But if the guns were also illegal elsewhere, where would those thugs get their guns?

I can be anywhere in the world and back again in 72 hours. Your plan (banning guns everywhere)would require the complete cooperation of every citizen of ever country in the world.

That seems pretty fucking ridiculous.

Also, there are (est) 500 million guns in the world. What do you propose to do about them? Also, guns, properly stored, can last for decades. Your plan to destroy all of them is preposterous. What about the (many) countries that hate you and your country? Do you propose invading north korea to take their guns?

And how are you going to do that without making more guns for the invasion?

Or do you expect the communist dictator in charge of that country to just disarm himself, just because you told him to?

For that matter, do you expect me to give up my weapons, just because you want me to?

I warn you that the only way to do so is to kill me. And how are you going to do that, if you actually do what you say you want and destroy yours first?

Your total lack of respect for basic human rights is disturbing.