Programming For Terrified Adults? 909
makeitreal writes "My mom is getting bored with learning the basics of email and has mastered Solitaire. She asked me what I do on my computer and I told her that I was teaching myself programming in Scheme. She expressed an interest in learning what I was doing, but I tried to teach it to her with the HtDP and we didn't even get past the introductory chapter. Everything I've looked at so far seems too complicated (Scheme, Python, VB) or too childish (Logo, Squeak, Lego Mindstorms). Is there anything in the middle that is also cheap/free and suitable for adults? Or should I give up the whole idea?"
HTML (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:HTML (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:HTML (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:HTML (Score:3, Insightful)
you get instant results.
debugging is very visual and very easy.
the results of your "programming" can look really cool thus making the "programming" itself seam cool. (big problem with most "hello world" type programs.)
As you go on to more advanced concepts these advantages go away to some extent, but hopefully by then the student will be in more of a position to not need these advantages.
TW
Re:HTML (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:HTML (Score:3, Informative)
The problem is that HTML "intrpreters" as well as ECMA Script (Java Script, JScript, etc) are very lax as far as enforcing good syntax.
HTML lax? Absolutely.
ECMAScript? No way jose.
JavaScript/JScript may be lax in following ECMAScript standards, but if you don't follow the syntax, it blows up in your face as soon as its called. I think HTML is lax, but still requires enough accuracy that it can reward the person with results, while not driving them nuts with nitpicking of details, while JS will turn
Re:HTML (Score:5, Insightful)
But if someone learns to make web pages with HTML, they learn a certain level of abstraction that is fundamentally necessary for any basic sort of programming. I teach computer science in a high school, and we start with HTML for this very reason. By the time they can write img tags and link tags, students have started internalizing the idea that these funny written symbols can produce something more concrete.
BTW, I recomment Logo for the very same reason - IIRC, it was designed to present abstract concepts in a concrete, visual-kinesthetic way. In the past I have started a class with turtle graphics and progressed to having them write a simple 8 bit binary adder by writing functions for various logic gates and combining them.
Re:HTML (Score:5, Insightful)
HTML: Not programming, but as far as a terrified adult is concerned, what's the difference?
Javascript: Start off learning to write HTML to your pages and ask for names via prompts and stuff. Annoying, evil stuff, but it makes you wanna learn more. Before you know it you're on to using it to solve logic problems or what have you.
Perl: This wasn't due to prompting from Javascript, just ego (my brother knew it), but if I hadn't known Javascript I would have thought it far too complex. The fact that it's easier is irrelevant, it can read/write files, therefore it's harder. It also can't do any of the flashy stuff Javascript can wihout a LOT of fiddling around with complex modules, so there's not much reason to learn it until you realise what it CAN do, such as wordsearches.
Re:HTML (Score:5, Insightful)
When she is ready to get deeper into it, show her PHP and she can get all the control structures she wants... and build on what she knows...
If you start her out in an application language, then it would take years for her to get to the point where she could actually write a functional application...
But if you start her out in HTML then in just a few days she can have her own web page... That alone will give her a since of accomplishment. Even if it does in up on www.webpagesthatsuck.com
Re:HTML (Score:5, Insightful)
True, but it is a good introduction to other more involved laguages.
In what way ?
In this way:
- It shows the user that most programming can be done by a text editor alone (lets not confuse her with a compiler just yet).
- It shows her how important syntax can be.
- It gives tangible results very quickly.
- After you've created a static page, you can introduce her to JavaScript... a programming language that again doesn't require a compiler but contains a C like syntax, gives her a feel for conditions, arrays, loops and even regex if she wants to go there. Best of all it is simple, has loosely typed variables and runs from just about any browser. Plus Mozilla has an excelent debugger.
- After she's figured out how for loops and comparators and functions work and realizes she can only do so much with JavaScript, introduce her to a server side language, and go crazy from there.
But the most important reason of all I can think of starting her off with HTML, is because she can show off her work to her friends, both faster and in a much more impressive manner than writing something in perl/c/c++/java/vb/python/whatever, and they will be able to appreciate it.Re:HTML (Score:3, Insightful)
I still stand by this, I even argued with him - but he meant he was right.
It's Hypertext Markup Language. Far from programming. The closest thing must be javascript, which isn't HTML at all.
Anyways, my point is HTML is not programming. It's markup.
But your point may be valid, it's something to do -- but it isn't programming.
Re:HTML (Score:5, Funny)
My home economics teacher says that one must never place one's elbows on the table. However, I have read that one elbow, in between courses, is all right. Which is correct?
Gentle Reader:
For the purpose of answering examinations in your home economics class, your teacher is correct. Catching on to this principle of education may be of even greater importance to you now than learning correct current table manners, vital as Miss Manners believes that is.
Re:HTML (Score:5, Insightful)
The observance of manners are essential in any society, but they do us a disservice when they are used to propagate idiocy, as even a cursory examination of a good number of John Cleese-based Monty Python sketches will teach you.
So I say to Miss Manners: take that, bitch! And learn to speak of yourself using first-person!
Re:HTML (Score:3, Insightful)
Another good one is Visual Basic 6. I know many computer-illiterate people who picked that up - it seems natural to them, as it looks and feels like making a typical MS program.
If she wants to automate her daily computer tasks in a fun and easy way or make simple action games, I recommend Python. Its imposing at first, but IMHO its the easiest text language to learn and tinker with (want to know what does what? Help(modulename) ). Python
Re:HTML (Score:4, Funny)
I'm a dog. I lie awake at night wondering if my owner is really a dyslexic agnostic.
This is not at all a bad idea (Score:5, Informative)
While that's not the most complex 'computer language' in the world, it's within the grasp of a moderately intelligent person with no understanding of computers and a little time on their hands, and thus makes a great starter for someone who may end up going into it more seriously as a hobby. My professor is now fooling around with HTML in his spare time, making his own webpage. And it doesn't even suck
~Benjamin
Re:HTML (Score:3, Informative)
Starting her with HTML will teach structure and will provide immediate feedback. It's also dead easy to learn, and if she has an interest and some webspace, she can be immediately productive.
The next step would be CSS, from which she'll learn some neat concepts about side-effects and referencing and suchlike. Again, dead easy to learn.
Finally, she'll want to get int
HTML - become not terrified (Score:5, Insightful)
Rather than just looking at programming, maybe she is more generally looking for other things to do with her computer. Maybe her interest in programming is more of an interest in you and what you enjoy doing.
Does she craft? Does she garden? Does she cook? Would she like to play bridge with other people rather than just playing solitaire? Would she be interested in putting together a family history? Does she know how to engage safely with other folks with her interests on the internet? Can she google?
Is she an organization nut who would love to put things in databases? Does she have a collection she would like to itemize? Such lists and collections can be easier maintained on a computer. How about an inventory for insurance purposes? Would she want to use some sort of financial management program?
Would she be interested in obtaining recipes, craft ideas, or patterns?
Would she like to read, discuss, or publish poetry?
As for learning how to program, if her current activities do not point you in another obvious direction, HTML is an excellent place to start.
For all those screeching that HTML is not a programming language, what is there to reply but "duh, my aren't we all impressed that you recognize that HTML is markup language, bully for you."
Now let's help Mom.
HTML will get Mom used to typing in a text editor to produce a file which will get transformed into something else.
Mom will get instant gratification seeing her results in a web browser.
Mom will, within a few minutes, have something she can actually use and share with others.
Mom will make mistakes, see those mistakes, and be able to fix those mistakes.
Mom will get used to working with blocks.
Mom hopefully will see the advantages of writing in a manner which is easy to read.
A terrified adult does not need a tutorial on structured programming.
She needs to become not terrified.
Riannin
Hobbies (Score:4, Funny)
My mother in law had only slight interest in computers until she found out that there was a gigantic network of grandmothers who exchanged computer embroidery designs via e-mail.
Or, more accurately, designs featuring characters that are well protected by the Sonny Bono Copyright act. From a company whose name starts with "D"....
Several hundred floppy discs later we bought her a CD burner so she could better manage her booty.
Eventually the Alberta cop who was one of the central figures in this operation was shut down and charged.
Sometimes I despair for the profession. (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone who said HTML is not a programming language is worried that they are not actually competent programmers. You're missing the big picture.
This is where so many of us fail our customers (and I do mean customers -- we work in a customer service industry, get used to it). We feel like we have to hide the following facts:
Being able to code well is not a viture, it's a talent. You're not holy because you can make more efficient use of the EAX register than your neighbor. And being able to code simple things is not out of the realm of ANYONE. It may be VERY simple things, but people can learn to fend for themselves in simple matters. Macros, mail filters, PowerPoint animation -- these things are ALL programming! Maybe not as holy as you all would like, but they are programming. Many developers feel like they are the priests of the code, and they have to prevent the laity from THINKING that they have anything figured out, because if the laity could figure any one thing out for themselves, then they might figure out OTHER things, and soon, what would they need priests for? Relax, you devout catholic [reference.com] programmers (I mean catholic as in definition #1 -- not religiously) programmers. Just because the laity can learn a little HTML, doesn't mean that your days of molesting your clients are over. You don't have to slam the door on HTML being a language as if it was heresy, and will undermine the church. Lighten UP!!!
My administrative assistant writes simple queries (forgotten username/passwords) because I took the time to show her how to do it. She also now maintains the web pages that deal with technical support for our product. Now, it's true, her account only has select permissions because I'm not ready to give her the keys to the DB. I also don't require her to check her web pages into CVS (although I should, it's so simple). It probably took 15 minutes to teach her how to read the schema, and how to structure a basic select. And she had had NO previous SQL experience. I've also heard MANY people say that SQL is not a programming language. This is just ridiculous.
Some developers poo poo (that's right, I said poo poo) HTML because it is easier to do, and people who THEY don't consider super smart are able to produce web pages. Because someone without formal training in "the art" can make something that makes a computer "do" something, insecure developers must berate that accomplishment.
This is arrogance of the highest order. Get over yourselves. None of us is Einstein. And programming is not the intellectual equivalent of a pissing contest. There is nothing sacred about what we do. Some people tend to talk about programming as if it's some mysterious art (not criticizing the Donald, whose books I revere [amazon.com]). It's not. Some developers like to distguish themselves from "scripters." Some developers look down on DBA's as people who only maintain/tend the data.
You're all missing the fact that EVERYTHING that computers do is ONLY about the display and manipulation of data/information. All SGML derivatives are rules that the computer interprets, and then executes instructions based on those rules. And execution of rules is (IMHO)the beginning of programming
The reality is that we should be happy to have people understand how things rea
Re:HTML (Score:5, Insightful)
However, the point of learning HTML first is that it teaches you a few concepts that will be helpful in programming, namely the importance of structure and correct spelling and grammar in order to generate the desired results.
It is also simple to teach, and gives results quickly, and most people have the tools already on their computer, namely a browser and a text editor.
Re:HTML (Score:3, Insightful)
That said html can be learned in a few hours so yes it does indeed help programming because you have to plan out what you want especially when dealing with complex tables.
The ability to manipulate text to produce an image in your head is a very key concept when programming.
Also, very few people ever learn html without learning css and javascript in which case you would be woefully incorrect because javascript s
Re:HTML (Score:5, Insightful)
Cons:
I'd say it would be a good 'second start', the first one being HTML. Just make sure you don't give them a book/tutorial that emphasises flashiness, uses browser detects (unless there really isn't any alternative), fails to acknowledge the existance of other browsers than IE, or is in general plain stupid. The site having Javascript errors is a sure sign of wanting to stay away.
Re:HTML (Score:5, Insightful)
Just like learning the alphabet would be a waste if you wanted to learn to write.
You have to know how to start, how to stop, and what you can put inside what. Each different language has its own peculiar rules, with an emphasis on peculiar.
I doubt that HTML itself is Turing-complete, but it can easily be made so by running it through PHP or JSP.
Re:HTML (Score:5, Informative)
Still, whether or not HTML is Turing complete is irrelevant. If you look at the mistakes that most beginning programmers make, it's that they have no understanding of the human-machine interface. They don't know how to communicate their intentions into forms that computers can understand.
People are used to conversing with people, not computers. Telling people what to do is much different than telling a computer what to do.
First of all computers have no common sense, and a human being has a variable amount of common sense that can be depended upon. So beginners write code like this [rinkworks.com], relying on the computer's common sense to fix it for them:
begin
readln("Number of Apples", apples);
readln("Number of Carrots", carrots);
readln("Price for 1 Apple", a_price);
readln("Price for 1 Carrot", c_price);
writeln("Total for Apples", a_total);
writeln("Total for Carrots", c_total);
writeln("Total", total);
total
a_total
c_total
end;
"It's logical what the right solution is, and the computer should reorder the instructions the right way."
Computers are infallible in certain ways that humans aren't, and this confuses people too. You see stuff like this from beginning programmers:
let x=0;
let x=0;
Why is it repeated? "In case it didn't get it right the first time". I actually found this in someone's old Java code:
Socket s = new Socket(ADDR, PORT);
if (s==null) {
//show error message...
}
Turing completeness really isn't what's important. The more fundamental skill is learning how to think when giving instructions to a machine, and for that, HTML is fine for a beginner. HTML will at least teach you that the browser won't read your mind, will encourage you to learn to fix problems by experimenting, and puts you in the correct frame of mind to realize that you will get exactly what you specify and nothing more.
And even if it turns out to be a passing interest, HTML is an extremely useful computer skill to have. And an understanding of HTML is pivotal to many real-world tasks in real programming languages, since HTML is such a common type of data to be parsed and generated by computer programs. I'd say if a terrified adult doesn't know HTML, that should be the first thing they should study.
Re:I agree (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I agree (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it's not a programming language--but look at the goals. To allow someone to branch out into a new area. It's unlikely his mom wants to become a professional programmer...
-Sara
Feed her hunger for knowledge.... (Score:5, Insightful)
DEFINETLY PERSUE THIS TASK!
commenting the above.
me thinks, that html seems to be a great choice as the parent points out:
- it is great as an introduction to getting the "machine" to do what "you" want
-> this feeling of control encourages to learn more
- it will make them familiar looking at conventional (as in content) text, mixed with text expressing abstract ideas
-> any one familiar wit LaTeX has to view html as just anoter way of wordprocessing; though what it comes down to and is of interest for the poster is, that learning and using html is a great introduction, especially for those having difficulty with anything 'academic', combining regular text, their content, with controling text. controling in the sense, as it has some form of control over the display of the content by the browser [regarding html].
then there is not only html. once you start to delve into the subject, you will unavoidably be confronted with such things as css, php, javascript, etc. php will again be daughnting, and far to advanced. javascript though, can be hacked by any script kidy.
now we are not only looking at formating text. even if his mother chose css as her next step. she will start to discover how to gain even more power over the machine, as now first actual manipulations are possible. this ability also delivers a sense of capability, encouraging to tackle more difficult issues/tasks. as well as that it trains the brain in abstraction, the basic principals of coding (creating folders, organising files, all very basic stuff, but the UNDERSTANDING delivers far more insight into the actual functioning of a computer), and give a first impression of the linguistic capabilities a machine has.
teaching your parents can be a daunting task, that one want to organise in a way, to make the whole adventure as pleasent, easy, and least time consuming as possible.
with html you can let you mum play around. introduce her to a simple editor where she can easily switch from editor to browser view, and explain this concept to her (first look into the difference of code and application, both are text, but both text have different meanings; to US this concept is as obvious as that the sky is blue, just as proving the existence of a probability is trivial to a mathematician, anyone new to programing is confused, that there is text[code] and that there is text[actuall text displayed through code], as one can note in the way i have written this down, 2 them it is all just TEXT). then give her a simple, but not so trivial, example that she can play around with. give her a bunch of links where to find more information. and then let nature do its thing.
i have tought english to chinese kids, who didn't speak a word of it, while i don't know a word of chinese (exagerating, by then i had learnt how to say 'hello' = 'ni`hao'), i have troubleshoot the troubles of my grandfather and given him basic instructions an application usage via the phone to england, i have helped out most friends and any other family member, besides my job as a software and web deveopment consultant. my experience is: give them the fundementals, and then just be there while they play around. remember all those animal movies, how every animal learns while playing. hhhmmm, (not) sorry if i offend any believers, but we are animals. ergo, we learn through playing. while watching them, guide them. by that i mean, show them how they can gain more. in any game one can not only get stuck, but also go down paths, that lead no where. that is where your job as a teacher comes in: you are their guide. you mountain guide tells you about the pit falls, points out dangers and oportunities, great views, as well as the best way to the desired destination. guide your student (mother) into the computer park .
good luck, and hopefully also fun;)
Career move? (Score:5, Funny)
> My mom is getting bored with learning the basics of email
> and has mastered Solitaire.
And you want her to program!? Nonsense. Get her up to speed on
Minesweeper and her MCSE is in the bag!
Re:I agree (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I agree (Score:5, Insightful)
It has a syntax.
It is easy to deploy
It applies the concept of nesting
Its a weak introduction to xml
It can be mastered in a matter of days
Its a great launchpad towards JavaScript
It makes old ladies smile a heck of a lot more than
I just can't take seeing that any more... (Score:3, Informative)
Perhaps the most common and useful way to categorize programming languages is by paradigm. A paradigm describes the overall structure and architecture of a language. Some paradigms:
Give up (Score:5, Funny)
Qbasic (Score:5, Interesting)
for x = 1 to 10000
print x
next x
No GUI will make things easier to learn it, and it's nowhere as bad as C++.
There's also a web based language, like PHP / ASP, or Perl. It's not hard to begin with, even though it can become more complicated as time goes on.
Re:Qbasic (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd recommend Ruby. It has all the features that make BASIC appeal to peo
Re:Pascal (Score:5, Insightful)
scheme (Score:5, Informative)
Re:scheme (Score:3, Insightful)
If you go with this one make sure you are there to set up her environment and then get out of her way. This book is one you "grok" before your higher brain gets in the way, and if you are there to toss computer jargon at her it will just confuse things.
HTML (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:HTML (Score:5, Insightful)
HTML is the perfect answer to the problem. With even basic HTML she can do something productive. Help her come up with an idea for a web site (Geneaology, recipes, particle physics, whatever interests her...) & put her to work.
Once she has basic HTML, Skip Javascript & go straight to PHP [php.net]. By the time she's here, she'll probably have some ideas on what she can do with the language, so she'll be more motivated to tackle the (fairly shallow) learning curve.
As far as more traditional programming, I highly recommend Ruby [ruby-lang.org] (though the site is down temporarily). It has all the power of a language like Perl or Python, but it's syntax is quite clean and simple, and close enough to natural english that the code quite readable even if you don't know the language. For anyone new to programming who wants to write things that are in the realm of a scripting language, I wholeheartedly recommend it.
Teaching your mom programming?! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Teaching your mom programming?! (Score:3, Insightful)
Of what use is a baby?
What would you gain from learning to program? What use might you have for it?
What would I gain from learning to program? What use would I have for it?
That one I can answer: Sometimes programming buys my groceries, and even when my income comes from other sources, programming is an endless source of entertainment for me. Especially when I'm not depending on it to buy the groceries, programmi
Hypercard (Score:5, Interesting)
But Hypercard was *perfect* for people who wanted to get their feet wet but were totally scared of everything
If you want something a little more advanced: bash shell scripting. Easy to learn and obviously very very powerful.
Sunny Dubey
Re:Hypercard (Score:4, Insightful)
but bash scripting ??
that's about the last thing i'd recommend
the syntax is among the worst i've ever seen.
it's inconsistent, needs spaces in strange places
etc. if python is too complicated bash certainly isnt an option.
Re:Hypercard (Score:3, Informative)
Sadly Apple has discontinued Hypercard development for some years, and recently stopped selling it on the Apple store.
Still, it is a great learning tool, and if she's got an OS9 Mac (or is OK with Classic), copies can still be had on everyone's favourite global Garage Sale [ebay.com]
Re:Hypercard (Score:3, Interesting)
Not the cheapest but a good way to introduce all sorts of programming concepts in a visual way.
Mac/PC versions available; $69.95 for home use.
Alternatives to Hypercard (Score:5, Informative)
http://modena.intergate.ca/personal/gslj/hypera
Logo? (Score:5, Insightful)
Alice? (Score:3, Interesting)
Ok, so I know it's based on Python which you said was too complicated, but the subset you need for doing neat things in Alice is not so bad I think. Plus you get the exciting visual feedback of seeing your characters move around the screen and do stuff. Sort of like the same fun you might get from logo, but there's only so much drama you can get out of a few geometric squiggles on the screen.
With Alice you can make little 3D movies in your spare time that actually tell a
It doesn't matter (Score:3, Insightful)
nothing childish... (Score:5, Insightful)
But why not pick some language she might actually use for something? PHP or JavaScript might be a good choice. Or the Macromedia Flash scripting language--that way, she could make animations.
If she really wants to learn it as an intellectual exercise, I'd just stick with Scheme for her--there are good learning environments and tons of materials for learning programming with Scheme.
Try something BASIC (Score:5, Informative)
The BASIC language was designed for this in mind. There are a number of sources on the web where you can download a copy to play with. It was the first language I learned, decades ago, and it still is a good choice today. Just be sure to teach her structured programming so she doesn't run into the trap of spaghetti coding where GOTO's go every which way.
Here's a google [google.com] link to some places where you can download a copy to get started.
Have Fun!
NO! (Score:3, Insightful)
BASIC is really horrible. The only way to do anything useful is to use peek and poke and you wind up with a wrapper around some machine code. How the heck is that easy?
Python is great for beginners, you can do useful stuff without hacking machine code, and it doesn't teach you bad habits like BASIC.
But frankly I'd have to say Delphi would be the best place to start. All of the above advantages, plus plenty of RAD capabilities so she could stand a decent chance of making something she would find useful b
Why? Better ways to spend time (Score:3, Insightful)
Assembly language (Score:5, Funny)
load this
load that
add
store
That's it!
Core Wars (Score:5, Funny)
I wonder if many people have used icws94 [koth.org] as a first language?
(For those that have never heard of core wars: the basic idea is you write assembly programs that run in a virtual machine - whichever program has more threads running at the end of a time limit wins. I never got into it, but it looks like fun.)
-jim
Re:Assembly language (Score:3, Insightful)
Not programming? Maybe not OOP or High-level Language, but it is definitely programming at the most raw (well except for machine code!) level. I'll agree that it's not the best place for someone to jump into, especially if they're afraid of higher level languages. To code anything useful, you really need to know what's going on w/ the system, whereas with BASIC you can write a very nice program w/o caring how the system works at a low level.
All in a
She probably just want to reach her son. (Score:5, Insightful)
What it probably means is this: Take her out more often then just once a year you geek!
Re:She probably just want to reach her son. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:She probably just want to reach her son. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:She probably just want to reach her son. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, that may be it, too. In which case, why don't you try to learn something else from her? If she cooks deliciously, and you can't even fix yourself more than a sandwich, tell her to teach you how to cook! If she's into some professional area, ask her about it, too. And what about learning something together with her? Something new, I mean.
What is programming these days? (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're more interested in using an IDE to develop code (and not work with the underlying intsructions directly), then those listed above are not the best choices. But learning the basics of code syntax & understanding how these instructions translate into on-screen instructions are essential if you're interested in learning the core prinicple of programming.
JavaScript (Score:5, Insightful)
Good luck. I'm still trying to teach my mom to program. And she has a bachelor's degree in CS.
Re:JavaScript (Score:4, Funny)
If someone who has a bachelors in CS cannot program, they must have majored in Counter-Strike instead of Computer Science.
* Son killed mom with awp
[Mom] OMG CAMPER FAG
[Son] wtf?
Visual Basic?? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, I'm tired of all this "old people can't do this stuff" line of thinking. If they had an interest, they would. My mother taught herself a bunch of stuff with the comp and took classes at the local community college in Unix, etc. at age 50+. Point is, if your mom had an interest, and she's not a retard, she would be able to handle VB.
Re:Visual Basic?? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm currently in a Canadian college doing a 3 year programming college diploma course, which is an absolute fucking breeze for me because I have a programming background. I met a girlfriend who started at the same time as I did, but did not have such a background. Let me tell you: things are not always as simple as you think.
My gf definitely has an interest (she's paying $1500 per semester), and really does want to learn, but at the end of the day, it's just hard for her to understand certain concepts, and it takes a mastery of communications to try and explain things to her the right way (hey, if she's already taken the course twice, and both profs couldn't do explain it, fuck, it's going to be a bitch). She's definitely not a retard, and has an excellent business sense and a knack for picking up languages, but I believe that she is not well-suited to be a programmer.
The hard fact is: people are born to do certain things - it's just the way it is. And the later in life that you start, the harder it is to pick something up and learn it. To give you a better analogy: imagine trying to learn how to play hockey when you're 50 and don't even know how to skate - it's going to be a bitch! The brain is a muscle, just like any other, and it deteriorates with age. You can't blame people for not being able to learn fast enough. And besides, in programming, everything is a concept - you either get it, or you don't. And if you get it, that doesn't mean you'll be lightning quick to figure out how to apply it to problem solving.
My 2 cents, anyway...
html/php (Score:5, Insightful)
HTML & Perl (Score:4)
But Perl is a language where very simple things like the "Qbasic" examples posted will also work, but it is able to do useful things quickly and can be a very good complement to knowing HTML.
And it's free, works on every OS, etc...
Real Basic? Or some stack-based interpreted lang? (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd personally find stack-oriented scripting languages easier to pick up (from a newbie's perspective) because the process of dealing with event-driven loops is automatically built into the environment - you just have to tell the stack how to interpret button presses, etc. Also, it's easy to keep things segmented - individual scripts live on their own cards, and you can link the cards together in any particular order you want.
Make it simple. (Score:3, Interesting)
For someone in your case. Don't teach a language for the sake of teaching a language. First you need a problem. Something your mom is really interested in solving. It should be something simple. One example could be a program (possibly a daemon) that will e-mail a reminder about the b-days in your family. Or perhaps just pop up a window. Another idea might be to download a lot of recipies from the web and build a front end around it. Something that allows you to grep through them. Eventually adding ability to recognize ingredients and query for those, etc. The important thing is to start small, have a visible result almost immediately and then slowly build up.
Another alternative might be to show your mom how to use photoshop or a 3d rendering package. You can download Maya educational version for free. You also have povray and a whole slew of others available. Maybe it's time to help your mom develop the more artistic side...
Brainfuck ? (Score:3, Funny)
Seriously though, maybe you should learn her about the von Neumann architecture [wikipedia.org], and let her play with a simple implementation of it. At the very least it let's her help understand the basics of computing.
AppleScript (Score:5, Informative)
For instance, here's a quickie script to mail a URL from my desktop machine from my PowerBook:
tell application "Safari"
tell window 1
set n to name
end tell
tell document 1
set u to URL
end tell
end tell
tell application "Mailsmith" of machine "eppc://GreyGhost.local"
make new message window with properties {subject:s, contents:""}
end tell
Easy to follow, yes? You get go from the barebones simplistic (like above) to highly involved workflow solutions.
Re:AppleScript (Score:3, Interesting)
I've encountered situations where "<VERB> the <OBJECT>" would not work, but "<VERB> <OBJECT>" would, etc. And the error messages usually aren't of much help - with some luck you can figure out which line the error was in, but figuring out the correct syntax is often a matter
Good choices, bad choices (Score:5, Insightful)
Functional, imperative, and probably even object oriented languages in general will be nearly impossible on a conceptual level. They're designed to be useful for someone who thinks that way, which normal people really don't!
The best idea I've seen here is QuickBasic (or QBasic will do in a pinch). Instantly complains when you make a mistake, so you can fix it. A 'command' window, which allows you to execute single statements, allows you to start with hello world without even the concept of 'running'. Automatically takes care of case, and downright intuitive in terms of runtime errors. Basic procedural language.
Basic is definately the place to start. Once Mommy's mastered qbasic, then you can start with some more interesting languages.
Is she cute? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously though, why do you assume she'd be interested in programming? I've been using computer almost all my life and I absolutely hate programming. Teach her how to use Access and let her develop a database to track something at home. Show her how to use instant messaging to hang out in chat rooms and pick up younger men, etc. Maybe she'd be interested in playing around with Photoshop with a digital camera or video editing with a camcorder. Don't pigeon-hole her into programming as the next evolutionary step she needs to make after learning e-mail! That's just crazy.
The number one reason I hate programming is that I don't have any reason to program anything. 99% of the time things I would want to write are already on freshmeat so why reinvent the wheel? Besides, I don't have the patience for coding outside a classroom environment where I have a very strict set of instructions on what the program should do and what mechanisms you need to use to implement it.
QBasic. Yes, QBasic. (Score:5, Insightful)
Squeak is too childish? You kid. (Score:5, Insightful)
Of the things that you list there, squeak is probably the most powerful, advanced, well-designed learning system out there. And not only is it a learning system, it is used for SERIOUS purposes by people doing SERIOUS work. The fact that it is also a good learning environment speaks to the uniqueness and elegance of Smalltalk.
Even attempting to lump in squeak with Logo and Lego mindstorms shows that you really do not understand what you are dealing with.
_please_.. do not make general statements like these without actually knowing what you are talking about. And trust me, on this point, you do not know what you are talking about.
-Laxitive
What does she want to DO? (Score:5, Insightful)
I write software for a living, but I never know what direction to go in until I have a well-defined set of goals. Learning is kind of the same beast.
A good example might be a recipe program (to go on the typical "mom"). You could start out with some simple GUI stuff, putting windows on the screen, maybe a couple simple menus and clickies. The first recipies can be hardcoded, then back it with a simple database.
Sure as hell beats writing Hello World programs.
The Little Lisper or The Little Schemer (Score:3, Informative)
The Little Lisper is a classic, very fun with its retro look and culinaire theme, and quite efficient with its programming instruction method.
The Little Schemer substitutes cutesy baby elephant cartoons, and shifts to Scheme.
BASIC or Pascal (Score:3, Informative)
As a kid I learned on BASIC. For some reason the line numbers really helped me. I saw C but without an introduction to programming, it seemed so "free form" that I couldn't understand what was going on. I'd imagine you can't walk too far in a cube farm without tripping over someone's old copy of Quick Basic, so that should be easy to get.
If not that, then Pascal is verbose and well-structured. Reading it out loud almost makes sense in English.
For Pascal, you can either download an old version of Turbo Pascal from Borland: http://community.borland.com/article/0,1410,20803, 00.html [borland.com] or ask a buddy -- someone is bound to have a copy lying around. I know I've seen it in bargain bins at book stores in the past.
Maybe, just maybe, she could also try Delphi (think Visual Basic but with Pascal and not as icky), the Personal edition is free: http://www.borland.com/products/downloads/download _delphi.html [borland.com]
What do you mean, Python's too complicated? (Score:5, Insightful)
Scheme is not a complicated language. In fact, that's its biggest advantage. It's dead freakin' simple, so much so that the entire language specification is only a few pages long.
Compared to it, Python is an abomination of complexity--and Python's not a complex language, either.
You're not going to find a simpler, more straightforward pair of languages than Scheme and Python. If you're not able to make either of those languages comprehensible to your mother, then I'd respectfully suggest one of these is true:
- She doesn't want to learn (isn't willing to make the investment in time, effort, etc.)
- She doesn't understand basic mathematics ("what's a function?", etc.)
- You don't understand the languages you're trying to teach
- You're not communicating effectively
Any of those would seem far more likely to me than "Python and Scheme are too hard".Re:What do you mean, Python's too complicated? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's exactly why scheme is a bad language to teach newbies. The simplicity of the language implies that you need to do a fair amount of work to do anything truly useful or interesting to the student. Not to mention all those braces can be intimidating. That's a serious criticism.
Accusing the student as just being lazy or stupid (points 1 & 2 of your comment) is not the mark of a good teacher. The last time the average adult engaged the 'basic mathematics' you're talking about would be 30 some-odd years ago-- you've got to get them working in a linguistic environment that's comfortable and that they can relate to.
The key is to keep it interesting, not get bogged down in constructs and concepts (like lambda-calculus), and build up a set of simple tools and skills one step at a time.
My Suggestions (Score:5, Interesting)
In conclusion I think that the best are probably BASIC or Python, and I would lean to the latter. And no matter how much you want to help her yourself, I would suggest getting her a good book on the language to read. Preferable one geared to new programmers (instead of a "___ for C++ programmers" type books, or a massive tome of everything in the language).
Hope that helps. I'll answer any questions on the why I think such and such about the languages above or any other language if you just reply to this.
You forgot TCL/Tk (Score:4, Interesting)
pascal (Score:5, Insightful)
I know the answer (Score:4, Interesting)
It's more than just adding values in cells. How about taking 2 cells with a time format (eg, 1 pm and 6:15pm) and having a third cell display the number of hours in between (5.25 in this case)... You can get pretty fancy with Excel programming or you can keep it very simple. By the time she grasps the finer points of programming in Excel, she'll grasp much of programming (though probably not of good programming practices) in general.
Though the question remains: why?
Applescript? (Score:3, Informative)
I don't understand why you rejected Mindstorms as too childish. It seems perfect to me: it is simple (which is what you want for someone who is a complete beginner), and it is interesting (your programs do something concrete). The only problem I see is that if she isn't mechancially inclined, you might have to build the robots for her.
Anyway, the main problem here is that you can't really separate programming from the problems that the programs solve. You need to find some area where she understands the problems that are to be solved by programming.
Find something she is already interested in and understands, that can be automated by computer, and base your teaching around that. That way, she will understand what is going on, and will only have to pick up the programming part.
Well maybe you should ask her... (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe you should look at these with her. You might think they are too complicated or childish, but she may not. In fact, she might surprise you with what she likes.
Nothing is easy, tell her to just jump in... (Score:5, Insightful)
She's eventually going to need to bite the bullet and figure out how it all goes together. No pain, no gain and programming is all about pain.
Suggestion - have her conceive of something she'd like to automate. Does she use spreadsheets? Great! There have to be any number of things she does over and over and over that would be prime candidates for coding. Guess what? Most sheets include programming languages. Now she has a goal (automate a task) and a tool (scripting language). She's 1/2 way there.
Once she's gotten her feet wet, it's just a matter of building more and more complex systems and figuring out the techniques of programming.
My personal choice for the best tool to quickly and easily build apps that really do cool stuff - Lotus Notes. Full built in development environment, choice of two built in languages plus hooks to whatever else you'd like, a limited number of widgets with a limited number of methods and properties - it's totally possible to get the entire environment into your head making it easy to focus on the objective rather than finding the right method. Downside - you gotta buy the designer client and it's about a grand.
Python is similar to Notes in that the language is small enough to grasp and is extensible.
If she gives you crap about 'it'll take me years to learn how to do this', just tell her the years are going to go by whether or not she tries this so go for it!
HTH and wish her well - old farts can learn new tricks too.
Dogu (an old fart who gets paid to write code)
POV-Ray (Score:5, Funny)
http://www.povray.org/
For example, here's a script that puts 9 reflective spheres in a ring on a checkered plane:
camera {
location < 0, 3,-8>
look_at < 0, 0.5, 0>
angle 35
}
light_source {<-5, 8,-3>, color rgb <1, 1, 1>}
plane {y, 0
pigment {checker color rgb < 1, 1, 1>, color rgb < 0, 0, 0>}
}
union {
#local J = 0;
#while(J < 9)
sphere {< 1, 0.25, 0>, 0.25 rotate y*J*360/9}
#local J = J + 1;
#end
pigment {color rgb < 1, 1, 1>}
finish {reflection 1 diffuse 0 ambient 0}
}
Pascal or . . . (Score:3, Informative)
Common Lisp isn't so bad either, and Touretzky's book [cmu.edu] is as gentle as it claims and free.
Don't write off Logo too quickly. (Score:4, Informative)
It's string handling is powerful and LISP-esque and really interesting - I wrote a decent Eliza when I was a kid using it.
The turtle commands give a really simple and direct understanding or what it means to issue a command. This can lead nicely on to the simple concept of programming multiple commands, but from there the possibilities explode... not literally, that would be too scary.
Berkeley Logo looks like a very nice implementation (thanks Google). You can grab it gratis for Windows, Linux. Mac, DOS from this guy's home page. [berkeley.edu]
Thanks for asking - you've inspired me to download it.
"But I always wanted to learn to play the guitar." (Score:4, Insightful)
And I've heard "I've always wanted to learn how to..." regarding both, plenty of times. And my standard response to that is "But why? ".
Seriously - the question is equally relevant for both disciplines (and disciplines they are indeed - the number of people that can do either well without investing a lot of effort is severely limited). And quite often, I've discovered that what the person really means is "I think it would be cool/chic/whatever to be able to claim that I could....". And that's something totally different, indeed. If the person doesn't have a grasp of that distinction, it's time to turn away while shaking my head. If they really wanted to learn how, they'd have found a way to scrape up enough money to buy a dirt-cheap guitar and learned how to do it. If Robert Johnson [wikipedia.org] could get a guitar, so can you...
And sometimes, the person has a fairly realistic goal in mind - one that doesn't involve a whole lot of mental and emotional investment. It doesn't take a lot of effort for somebody to learn enough guitar to not look foolish sitting around a campfire - you learn a I-IV-V progression and the associated relative minor chords in a few keys and how to strum on the beat, and you're set. Similarly, learning enough programming to write small scripts to make your life easier isn't very hard - there's enough "<Scripting Language> for Dummies" books.
However, that's a different goal from understanding either subject in depth - and neither "knowing enough to fiddle around with it" nor "truly understanding it" are the answer to the unstated question here...
I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that simoniker's mother isn't really interested in learning to program - what she's really wondering about is "How can simoniker sit there all day typing away, when Solitaire gets boring after a few hours?". And the right answer there is "Artistic Drive".
Unfortunately, that's a very hard concept to explain to those not driven by it. It takes many forms - the artist starving because they'd rather buy paint than food, Stevie Ray Vaughn playing guitar till the calluses on his fingers bled - and then crazy-gluing them back in place and playing more, or any athlete or performer who has made personal sacrifices in the pursuit of their goals....
And those of us afflicted by it are never, and have never, and probably never will be, understood by those of us who aren't.. ey to buy a cheap one and found a way to learn.....
What about Pascal? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not the language it's the need (Score:4, Insightful)
The key aspect of teaching programming is to identify a need your mother has for an automated task. Then teach her how to automate it with a simple language such as Python using just the subset needed to solve the problem. Then branch out aadding features to the solution and identifying new needs. As the programs expand, introduce new language features.
Re:Theory first, Platform second (Score:3, Insightful)
SICP was never "hyped". (Score:3, Insightful)
Scheme wasn't created to hype a book. Steele and Sussman created Scheme because they needed a clean and simple programming language with which to teach undergraduates. Then along came a book called Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, which has never once been a victim of hype. It's only hype if it doesn't live up to its billing, and SICP certainly d
Meanwhile at home (Score:5, Funny)
Mom started with Solitaire, then other kind of card games. Then she discovered Boardgames, and I presented here Yahoo Games! Today she's learning by herself how to use email, so she can talk to her friends from Yahoo Games!
Good for her? I don't know. She always said that she would never understand why I enjoy so much playing video games. And now we have to tell her it's time to go to bed at 2 AM :o)
Squeak and Etoys (Score:5, Informative)
Squeak is basically Smalltalk. The programming environment is designed to be fun and highly productive. You can go from simple visual concepts to coding.
It's also free and opensource.
Re:Java (Score:5, Insightful)
(1) Posting your "immediate" Java code creating a window, button, etc.
(2) Showing it to this guy's mother, and
(3) Being there when she freaks out over it.