Dealing with the Unix Copy and Paste Paradigm? 1125
MolecularBear asks: "I grew up on Windows machines, using the ol' ctrl-c to copy and ctrl-v to paste. For the past few years I've been a hardcore Linux user, running it almost exclusively at home and at work. As I am sure you are all aware, highlighting text in Linux automatically performs a copy while the middle mouse button performs a paste. The Ctrl-c, Ctrl-v standard works in many applications, but not all. Lately I have begun to find the automatic highlight-copy to be annoying. As in, I'll highlight text to copy it, then realize I want to highlight a block of text for the purpose of deleting it. Of course, the second highlighting overwrites the first highlighting. I am curious about how other people accomplish their copy/paste needs. Any special setups, applications, or words of wisdom?"
Common problem.. (Score:5, Insightful)
What annoys me the most is when copying/pasteing URL's. I'll highlight© a url somewhere then I go and paste it into firefox. Out of habbit I'll go and highlight the current URL and control+v what I assume I'm pasteing... and end up with the same URL that I started with.
Whats more interesting is that sometimes what control+v pastes is different from what the middle-click pastes. I'm sure there is a reason, and I'm also sure its my fault for not knowing it... but its still annoying..
What I've come to do is to copy a link via control+c or highlighting then opening a new tab in firefox. I have firefox to open new tabs to blank URL's and then I just middle click or control+v the URL.
Its a partial and flawed solution to a small part of your problem. Of course, this is Slashdot
Your proiblem... (Score:4, Insightful)
I wish! (Score:3, Insightful)
I wish. That's the behavior that I prefer. In the past half-year, I've tried about four different distributions, and none of them have had that as the default behavior. It seems like they're intentionally trying to become like Windows.
steve
What middle button? (Score:5, Insightful)
I used to run into the same problem, but you already know the solution: use ctrl-c and ctrl-v. If an application doesn't support them, scrap it. Just ignore your middle mouse button -- pretend it isn't there -- and you won't have this problem.
Re:Common problem.. (Score:5, Insightful)
IIRC, what should happen is the primary selection (ctrl-c/ctrl-v) should be seperate from secondary selection (select text, then middle click)
I prefer the X way, kind of... (Score:4, Insightful)
But I do know what you're talking about. I mostly run into this issue when entering text into the address bar of Mozilla. Fortunately, Mozilla uses emacs-style keybindings, so if I want to replace what's in the address bar with what's on the clipboard, I just:
1. Focus on the address bar.
2. Hit Ctrl-a to go to the beginning of the line.
3. Hit Ctrl-k to kill the contents of the address bar.
4. Click on the address bar with the middle mouse button to paste the new contents.
I, personally, would like the best of both worlds, but that would essentially require that the system read my mind. Obviously, we're not there yet.
The answer is ... jedit (Score:2, Insightful)
What most linux aficionados don't realize is that vi and emacs are the best anti-linux vaccines. The moment you tell a non-technical person that he or she would have to use from now on the usability nightmares that vi and emacs are, you can't be sure that they not only will they run away from linux, but they'd also tell everybody to do the same.
KDE does ctrl-c/ctrl-v in most of its apps, if jedit is too heavy for you, try kate for a change.
Open source project very rarely have the money to do real usability apps, so I think it'd be a good idea to adopt UI elements from existing commercial designs
Another Annoying Linux-Ism (Score:1, Insightful)
Is when you have to telnet from Linux to Solaris boxes and the keys are all fucked up. If you have enough Solaris and Linux boxes in your network, you'll go crazy having to use CTRL-H on some and backspace on others.
X Selection (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux automatically performs a copy while the middle mouse button performs a paste.
This has nothing to do with your machine running GNU/Linux it is the X selection mechanism and its use for copying text. You'd have the same issues on any machine running diverse free software X based applications. There is no good answer for you. It is one of the weaknesses of a federated system.
Re:I wish! (Score:4, Insightful)
Linux is not Windows. Stop trying to make it as such.
Re:This is the correct behavior (Score:2, Insightful)
XFCE (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Common problem.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Because you really should.
The solution (Score:3, Insightful)
1) I highlight a URL in some text.
2) I highlight the URL selector in Mozilla - this causes the previous highlighted text to lose focus and causes it to go to clipboard.
3) I middle-click the URL in Mozilla (which never lost focus) and the clipboard text goes in.
Not sure how "focus" actually works in this case, but you should be able to understand what needs to change to make it work. And for goodness sake have the FSF patent this so only Free Software will be able to use it. As the "inventor" can't I still patent for a short time after this public posting?
Re:"Correct?"-- A bit off topic, a bit flame-y (Score:5, Insightful)
Specifically, it will fail the "my mother" test: Why would my mother want to use this? As a disclaimer, let me point out that my mother has postgraduate education, has started a successful business, is a successful archaeologist, etc. We're not talking about a country bumpkin here. But she doesn't much like, or understand, computers. It took her long enough to figure out Ctrl-c Ctrl-v; she doesn't want to learn another behavior.
The fact is that if Linux wants people to "adapt", then it needs to offer *evident* benefits beyond what Windows offers (again, subject to the my mother test; she doesn't care to recompile anything at all, ever). I might see enough benefit to tolerate some annoyance (I've never really noticed this as a big one, though I'll now be sure to count the times that I errantly cut/paste things), but she doesn't.
-db
Re:I prefer the X way, kind of... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is a usability problem... (Score:3, Insightful)
That is my biggest issue with the linux/open source world. Not that in particular, but the lack of standardization. The lack of standardization of shortcut keys, graphical interface design and general look-and-feel of the interface.
For me, usability is much more important then functionality. I wouldn't run a server on anything else but a little more maturity is needed to get me to use linux as a home system.
Re:The writer needs a clue. It is orthogonal. (Score:5, Insightful)
Telling someone that they are clueless beacuse they use a differnt setup than you is not very helpful.
Re:-1 Redundant (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:-1 Redundant (Score:3, Insightful)
that's a matter of opinion. if you hadn't gotten used to the way ms windows does it, you wouldnt be complaining. i've been using linux only for a bit under 3 years, and don't have a problem with the cut/paste situation.
it's only good for text.
across all desktops and all apps, this is true, although within certian environments, you can drag 'n drop, and cut/paste images and text. I can cut/paste html from mozilla browser into mozilla mail. in openoffice I can cut/paste images from one doc to another.
Re:This is the correct behavior (Score:1, Insightful)
Thank God for Windows (troll?) (Score:2, Insightful)
OS behavior that is uniform throughout its (correctly written) applications is essential for end user ease of use and training. Period.
And why do some folks here try to deflect blame from the Linux operating system. (Its X's fault, Linux is as innocent and pure as the driven snow). Fine, then Linux peddlers need to create a true "Linux GUI" that functions uniformly accros applications.
These dumb mentalities of: "thats just the way it is" or "if you dont like it, you fix it" or "we can't change longtime stupid unix behaviors, the users must learn to workaround it" is exactly what keeps Linux from growing into a legitimate desktop OS.
Re:This is the correct behavior (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The answer is ... jedit (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oh boy (Score:4, Insightful)
Basically, this guy is complaining that things are working in the way they should, but not how he wants them. I'm not sure how to make it convenient for him without breaking other stuff. Look at it this way, he could just use the same way that works on Windows/MacOS, but he's not, then complains that it's broken. What's up with that?
Re:"Correct?"-- A bit off topic, a bit flame-y (Score:3, Insightful)
So, basically, the clipboard would work OK for your mother. It's power users who try and combine both mechanisms at once then get confused who it doesn't work for, but there's no way around that.
The real problems with the X clipboard have more to do with handling large quantities of data, and standardised data formats than middle click vs ctrl-c/v.
Re:X copy/paste - Swap??? (Score:2, Insightful)
Whenever PRIMARY changes, make the secondary selection the previous primary, and add a "Swap" menu item + shortcut to make Cut/Copy/Paste/Swap.
Use Case:
Highlight some text "hello", lets say the highlight is bright blue background.
Go to somewhere else, highlight some more text "goodbye". "goodbye" becomes bright blue background indicating it is now PRIMARY. "hello" has become faded blue, indicating it is now SECONDARY.
Now "Swap". "hello"+"goodbye" exchange places! I think "hello" in its new position should have the PRIMARY selection, and "goodbye" in its new position the SECONDARY, as that's where the user will "be" after swapping, and a second "Swap" will restore the text to its original state.
Most cut/paste operations I do are reorganisations of that nature. Other people might differ - but it's certainly one of those features that would keep legal people loyal to a word processor, say.
I think it would be dead handy, and no-one I know is doing it.
Missing the real story (Score:5, Insightful)
I can copy text from VS and paste it into Word, in which case it pastes as RTF with colors and formatting. If I paste it into notepad, I get plain text. This is because the clipboard understands high-level text (RTF) and casting that down into standard text. It also allows apps to provide multiple data formats; copying an image can put a JPG, Bitmap, and PNG on the clipboard and the consuming app can select the format it likes best.
Even better would be to support Office-style multiboard functionality where there are 10-12 "slots" on the clipboard and you can cut and paste from each slot at will.
(Ex: in VS, CTRL+SHIFT+V will cycle through each of the last X copied items for pasting, meaning you can go to one spot of code and copy, then another and copy, then open a different source file and copy a block, then paste all three together somewhere else very easily.)
Re:-1 troll/idiot/wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
I understand X's seperate buffers. I understand in one app it may be Ctrl-C to get the clipboard buffer, in another it may be Alt (oh excuse me, Meta) Q. Who knows.
I also know that most apps have their own redundant application-level cut/copy/paste. In pico/pine/nano its Ctrl-K for cut, and Ctrl-U for un-cut. I know if I want to cut and paste within a single text file I can use C-k and C-u to move lines. If I want to move text from xterm A to OOo document B it's something different entirely.
I know the unix labs at my school had cheatsheets the size of movie posters on every machine to remind casual users how to copy a block of text, and other trivial tasks. I also know they were perpetually empty, and the Windows and Mac labs perpetually full.
I also know it's annoying and makes even the most airbrushed linux gui behave like an unprofessional piece of crap.
You may enjoy memerizing key bindings for umpteen million different apps, but I don't and neither does the majority of the unix desktop's potential market.
Re:X copy/paste (Score:3, Insightful)
This probably doesn't need to be implemented at a client level though, perhaps a utility that works globally, setting the hotkey (or perhaps a spare mouse button on a multi button mouse) to swap the two selections. Anybody know if such a utility exists?
Re:I wish! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:you are wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
What the parent meant, and what I think is silly too, is that you're only supposed to call it the X Window System, X Window, X, X11, or basically any variation containing X except for X-Windows, which sounds a bit too much like windows, and some people have a visceral reaction to even just the name of a microsoft product.
There are PRIMARY, SECONDARY, CLIPBOARD. Actually, apps can ask for any clipboard by providing their own names. Too much liberty in the implementation and a lack of a properly defined standard is the main problem.
I disagree. There is a clearly defined standard on freedesktop.org, not everyone follows it though. The reality is that not prescribing default policy for anything was a really dumb idea. Still, that doesn't mean it's too late to prescribe that default policy now, and the freedesktop project seems to be doing that, with clear definitions for window managers, clipboards, mime types, app menu's, desktop icons, and so on...
Re:"Correct?"-- A bit off topic, a bit flame-y (Score:3, Insightful)
In this case, it's ludicrous to argue that the middle-click is better because "it's always been done that way." If users find it easier to CTRL-C/V, then it should be done that way instead.
If Linux makes an improvement upon some usability issue, people will gravitate toward it. If it's harder to use, they will stay away (unless something else attracts them).
Re:Training and repetition (Score:3, Insightful)
The fact that copy/paste is buggy or sluggish under X-Windows has a simple reason: There are tons of SDKs for X-Windows, almost all of them using a separate clipboard implementation/mechanism. Saying that you deal with a technical problem by getting used to it, is saying that technology will fail to address the problem. As you say, "Linux is different" (almost true, since it has almost nothing to do with Linux, but rather with X-Windows). I would rather say: X-Windows clipboard management sucks. If you want to use Linux on the desktop, you'll have to get used to it.
While true, I found a rather interesting "workaround" when I explained to my mother how to use her new Linux desktop (disclaimer: she asked me to move her to Linux, and after several weeks of me asking her "why do you want to learn something new?" and setting an expectation for what she'd find on Linux, I finally moved her to Red Hat Linux. Also, I have run Linux 100% as my desktop since 1998.)
The "workaround" was to explain that Linux has two different kinds of clipboards, and it would work differently for her under Linux than the clipboard worked under Windows. I explained it like this:
Yes, I know this is not technically the correct explanation. But when trying to explain how the copy/paste thing works to a non-Linux user, I found this simplification made it easy for her to understand. And it set the right expectation - she never asks about why copy/paste acts the way it does. My mother (not a technical user) had the expectation set for her that Linux was not Windows, so copy/paste wouldn't work just like Windows. The concept of "local" vs "global" clipboards was different, but then again she was on a different operating system. It didn't take her any time to get used to this - she understood right from the start when to use middle-click and when to use copy/paste.
Interestingly, I was in the next room when I heard her explain this to one of her (also non-technical) friends. She said something like "...and that's why you can do copy/paste from the file manager, but you can't just middle-click the file there." I smiled, since it was technically not copy/paste in Nautilus, but I thought it was neat that the simplified concept of "local" vs "global" clipboards seemed to work so well for her.
I suppose I'll go to hell for telling a white lie about how it really works. :-)
Re:you are wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
You are right. There are plenty of standards, each one created by a separate organization (freedesktop, motif, etc...). The problem is that we need an authority to set the standard. Because multiple standards is not much better than no standard.
The reality is that not prescribing default policy for anything was a really dumb idea.
Agreed. And now we have to live with all these apps that were developped before freedesktop.org, and most of them are here to stay. Sure, the real broad ones will be adapted... Have you tried to launch XGhost on a recent distro? Still looks as bad as the first version. This is what I'm talking about. For sure Moz and OpenOffice are nicely written, but that's just two apps!
Still, that doesn't mean it's too late to prescribe that default policy now, and the freedesktop project seems to be doing that, with clear definitions for window managers, clipboards, mime types, app menu's, desktop icons, and so on...
And I'm happy they're doing it. The questions are:
1. Will everyone follow. They are no authority, so if any party decide they're not going to follow it, we're back at our main problem.
2. Who will port those gazillion apps that we do use, but have been developped before? Answer: No one. Because of general laziness, sure, but also because some of them aren't even open source!
So while we are going in the right direction (hopefully), there is still a lot of baggage that comes with the system.
Re:This is a usability problem... (Score:5, Insightful)
The confusion arises when Mac/Windows people arrive and want to bring their habits with them. This is completely natural. However, there has been and will continue to be strong resistance (I'll lead it myself if needs be
I think a more reasonable solution might have been to just stick with highlight, middle click as a single, consistant standard and just teach it to newcomers. At least you'd dodge the apparent confusion that comes from partial, but not universal support of their familiar method. Better, but more labor-intensive (the true capital of the open source world) would be to have selectable behavior by a global X-server level (or perhaps window manager level) toggle.
All that said, the idea of having to use both keyboard and mouse for such a fundamental operation is just so horrifyingly backwards and wrong, and it amazes me that anyone who's experienced X11 could possibly go back to such an arcane and user-hostile configuration.
Re:the "universal standard" (Score:3, Insightful)
Middle-click doesn't paste. It drops. (Score:3, Insightful)
Control-C and Control-V are copy and paste (and use the CLIPBOARD). They work just like Windows (or like the Mac clipboard). If an app doesn't work right with these, it's just broken. File a bug on the app.
Re:This is a usability problem... (Score:5, Insightful)
And yes I wrote this in a terminal and selected/pasted it with the button.. because Control-C doesn't work in the terminal!
For the terminal at least, there is a good reason for this. You are basically running a console program inside a window, and this console application has it's own meaning for control keys. For example ^C sends SIG-INT to the current program. In pico ^C is shows the current line number. Emacs would be unusable without ^c and ^x. So the terminal emulator interpreted ^c and ^v as copy and paste, instead of passing them onto program running in the terminal, then all of these commands for all of these programs would stop working. Some people have suggested intercepting ctrl-c and ctrl-v for copy and paste and then having buttons you can click to actually send the command. I have tried this and found it to be much worse than the original problem.
Because the terminal was the first application to run in X, the designers wanted a way to copy and paste that didn't conflict with these existing keyboard shortcuts. However, any existing keyboard shortcut could concievably already be used by an existing console program. Since the mouse was the only new input for X they came up with the mouse-only copy and paste that we have now.
There really isn't any way to make the ctrl-C, ctrl-V method of copy and paste compatible with terminal applications. It just isn't possible. However there are other ways of doing copy and paste that are compatable with the terminal, by adding additional keys to the keyboard. For example, OS X uses the cmd key for all shortcuts, which doesn't interfere with ctrl shortcuts in the terminal. Some UNIXes have had dedicated copy and paste buttons on the keyboard.
However, seeing as how there would be great revolting if gnome or kde tried to get rid of ctrl-c, ctrl-v and replace them with alt-c,alt-v that it will never happen. The terminal emulator will just have to remain an oddity in these desktops.
It's not a feature, it's a bug (Score:5, Insightful)
In a properly implemented program, you should be able to use it as if there is no Primary Selection feature (highlight/middle-click) and not notice the difference from your usual Windows/Mac Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V habits. If you come across a program that does not do that, and mixes them together, that is not a feature that is a bug. Report it as a bug. If the developer dismisses it, report it as a bug again, email the developer telling him that you're going elsewhere, and switch to any of the plethora of other programs around (Free Software is great like that) that do things properly. Eventually someone will get the message.
That's one reason why I stick to KDE applications whenever possible. All KDE applications (ie, ones provided by the KDE.org team) are well-behaved and non-buggy in this respect. Programs that misbehave should simply not be used. Period.
Re:Pasting urls (Score:5, Insightful)
That depends on who you ask. I personally like and use both ways. Each can do things the other can not. For example X Windows method of copy/paste can work across different terminal sessions whereas KDE/GNOME's can not. On the other hand, KDE/GNOME's clipboard keeps a history whereas X or even bash does not. So depending on the environment you are in and the work you're doing. Both can be very useful at different times and for different needs. To think of both methods as one system is incorrect, they are most definitely two seperate systems. Being aware of that and making a decision on which to use will save you the frustration usually accompanied by confusing the two as a single system.
Re:Pasting urls (Score:2, Insightful)
Or you can see the X way as the "Quick'n dirty" copy and paste and the Gnome/KDE as the more solid.
Re:"Correct?"-- A bit off topic, a bit flame-y (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, I am bit tired of these "my mother" tests. There was also an aunt Tillie test, which was about the same. Both are actually completely irrelevant.
Why everybody encountering something that behaves differently than he/she expects starts complaining and claims that "it is the reason why Linux has an insignificant market share" ? Personally, I use Linux, Windows and sometimes Mac. Each is good for something else and they are (surprise!) tools, not a religion.
I am working with Linux most of the time but when I have to use Windows or Mac, I have problems because the things do not work as I am used to. Does it mean, that Windows or Mac will never have significant market share ? Actually, market share has nothing to do with usability but all with marketing, folks. You rarely get something sold or adopted just based on usability.
Back to the "mother test" - what is most important for adoption of Linux (or whichever OS or application) is not that, whether it behaves exactly the same as the thing you used before - if it did, why did you switch in the first place? Because it is "cool" ? I doubt it, that's only what the proverbial 13 year olds care about.
It all comes down to the motivation - is this new app or OS delivering something so new, that I can swallow the inconvenience of learning something different or putting up with something not working the way I was used to or am I just looking for an excuse why not switch ? If the answer is "yes, there is something that I need", then the app will get adoption regardless whether something silly as clipboard works the same as on Windows, Mac or whatever. If such problem deters you from using the application, you probably do not need its functionality enough and you did not need to switch to it in the first place.
An example for people complaining about Linux/Unix users being arrogant here. Disclaimer - the example holds in opposite direction as well, I didn't want to pick on some anti-americanism or some similar bull here.
In the U.S., most cars have A/C and automatic gearbox. Here in Europe, they mostly lack both. If an American comes to Europe and rents a car, discovering this fact, do you think that the clutch pedal will automagically disappear and the gearbox change to automatic just because he was used to have it that way at home ? No, it wont, the driver has to adapt and learn how to drive manually or rent another car. Does it mean, that such cars would not sell, because the manufacturers are arrogant and expecting the users to adapt ? Somehow doesn't compute neither. In the case of the car, it came down to the decision - "Do I need to drive so badly that I can put up with it or am I rather going to walk ?"
To conclude this my little rant, I agree, that the cut/copy-paste behavior on Linux is inconsistent sometimes and that there are applications which are broken and need to be fixed. However, this not Linux specific issue at all and hardly something preventing its adoption :-(
Re:This is a usability problem... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is a usability problem... (Score:3, Insightful)
Ok, so I disagree with most of what you said, and I think that if the developers of Linux (or in this case, X) ever want it to become a serious player in the desktop market they need to consider "when Mac/Windows people arrive and want to bring their habits with them". And yes, I used CTRL-C, CTRL-V to paste that.
But the thing that really bugs me is this:
"All that said, the idea of having to use both keyboard and mouse for such a fundamental operation is just so horrifyingly backwards and wrong, and it amazes me that anyone who's experienced X11 could possibly go back to such an arcane and user-hostile configuration.
Because, in windows, you don't HAVE to use the keyboard and mouse to copy n' paste. You can simply highlight, right click, choose copy, right click in another location, choose paste. The keyboard need never be involved. I usually use CTRL-C and CTRL-V because its faster and it works universally (some lame applications choose not to implement the right click menu standard - I shun those apps whenever possible).
Am I saying X needs to implement CTRL-C and CTRL-V? No. What I am saying is that many people don't understand why highlighting something would copy it. Take a minute to think about that. Shouldn't you have to take some sort of action to copy something? How hard would it be to allow the user to choose a "Middle click required to copy text" checkbox? Problem solved. Yes, it requires one extra click, but some of us would like to be able to choose that as an option. I don't care if the zealots keep their old wrong-headed copy scheme. I don't even care if its the default. But for Linux to really take hold, it needs to adopt functionality that will allow users coming from other UI worlds to function in a reasonably similar environment instead of having to adopt all sorts of strange new conventions.
Ok, Whoa! (Score:2, Insightful)
The ^C ^V paradigm irritates the crap out of me. I LOVE middle-click paste.
I only have a problem with it when things (like TORA, for instance) don't use it properly.
^C ^V is one of the reasons (along with the crappy foreground window model) that I feel horribly encumbered and inefficient in Windows.
While I understand the urge to select and replace, but if you really want it, add a modifier key like control to your select action, and arrange for that NOT to replace the primary selection.
The fault isn't with middle-button paste, here. It's with forcing a Macintosh-ism onto a nice, clean X paradigm.
Re:This is a usability problem... (Score:3, Insightful)
as if developers gave a damn (Score:3, Insightful)
This is just another instance of a far more generic class of problem with Linux (and no, i don't mean an inability to coordinate developers ).
There is no one authority who can speak out and require that all the myriad little isolated or small development shops adhere to anything resembling a Human Interface Guideline, like Apples (or anyones).
If Linus or someone really came down firmly and consistently on the need to have some common standards (and not just for tcp / http / smtp or whatever), this situation might change. As things stand, though, I'm not going to hold my breath.
And before the flames begin - I love the IDEA of linux. Please! Really! Save me from Windows! I HATE Windows !!!
But I feel like someone on a surgery table about to die while a group of insane surgeons argue about which method to use to cut into me, while some start with a variety of implements without consulting the others, and no consensus being reached.
The problem is that the cure looks far scarier than the disease right now, and you can take that however you want.
And telling me to go out and become a developer isn't an answer, its a fricking cop-out. This isn't something you fix with a widget, its something you fix by acting like you care, and have a professional attitude.
There are linux conferences, linux journals, linux companies, linux-oriented scholars/scientists.
So, why not take all that and add the last ingredient needed to make linux development a profession? (i.e. professional conduct and attitude regarding the product ).
Hell, no one has to even starting thinking in human interface terms. No need to learn presentation skills or interface design!
APPLE [amazon.com] ALREADY DID IT ! [apple.com]
Is there anything preventing the linux community from just ADOPTING THE APPLE HIG as the defacto standard??
Besides petty NIH syndrome ? (Not Invented Here )does drag-and-drop confuse you, too? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, X11's selection mechanisms doesn't, as you put it, perform an "automatic copy", it is actually separate from the copy-and-paste system, just like drag-and-drop is separate from copy-and-paste on Windows. X11's selection mechanism is a drag-and-drop operation, only that you can let go of the mouse button between selecting what you are going to drag and dropping it in the destination. It's actually significantly more convenient than drag-and-drop and significantly easier to handle. To make drag-and-drop work as well as X11's selection mechanism, you need to add weird hacks like "spring loaded containers".
Well-behaved X11 applications should implement both X11's selection mechanism and copy-and-paste. To convert between selections and clipboards, you can use any working X11 applications that can hold the datatype you are interested in converting, like an X11 text editor or the xclipboard application.
Re:If only Linux would get copy-paste right.. (Score:4, Insightful)
What are we comparing this to? Windows? Windows copy/paste is not exactly superior. Try, this for example: click once and then drag to select text. The first click will cause you to be selecting in units of single characters. Now try again, but click twice instead. Presto! You are selecting one word at a time.
OK, what happens if you triple-click? In Internet Explorer, this selects the current block of text, kind of like a Select All. In Notepad, it does NOTHING. In Mozilla, it selects a whole line at a time, but if you drag to the previous line, it goes back to selecting in units of characters and not lines! Gaaaaaaaah!
Is this the consistent, clean interface that X11 is supposed to want to copy? In this example at least, Windows has three different behaviors for three different apps. In X11, all the apps I can recall using operate exactly consistently. One click selects letter-at-a-time, two does word-at-a-time, and three does whole-line-at-a-time. And by the way, once you start selecting line-at-a-time, when you drag the mouse up or down, the additional selection is also done line-at-a-time.
Furthermore, I challenge the assumption that the Macintosh style of doing things (i.e. the one Windows copied) is more intuitive. It only seems intuitive to you because you've already learned it, so it's second nature. In contrast, I started using X11 fifteen years ago, and I got used to being able to just select text and move on. Now I am using Windows and Mac on the desktop mostly, and I cannot count the number of times that I've selected some text to copy, then rearranged all my windows and iconified the one that had the text, then gone to paste it into another app. But of course, all the effort is wasted because I forget the extra step of hitting Control-C (or Apple-C). Why? Because my intuition and habit tells me that I just select the text then immediately start navigating to the place where I want to paste it. I've been using Mac and Windows on the desktop for a year now, and I still sometimes forget and have to go back to start over, remembering to hit Control-C. The point is, just the fact that transition trips you up does not mean that the one you're familiar with is better. In fact, the transition in the other direction is just as exasperating.
Re:This is a usability problem... (Score:3, Insightful)
most elegant way to design a mouse.
Maybe, but "simple and elegant" is not the same as "useful".
Re:Common problem.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Speaking from experience here.... (Score:1, Insightful)
The only place it gets you is urls, and that's easily solvable once you get in the habit of pressing ctrl+u which wipes out the url line in Mozilla/firebird.
The only annoying thing then is using Mozilla/firebird on windows where you'll press ctrl+u and it brings up the damn source in it's annoying non-editable fashion.
Private rant, why does mozilla and other mozilla based browsers insist on opening the source in a read only window instead of a text editor? Even if they need to include a simple text editor with mozilla it'd be tiny compared to the app as is.
If you use composer or another graphical environment for writting webpages (ie, not a serious web developer/designer) that doesn't help, you still have to hit "edit this page" in the menu to get up composer. If you edit html source properly by hand in a text editor, it is VERY helpful to right-click, view source, save and then reload on a local html file to see changes every 15 seconds or so. Doing things this way gives you a visual experience equal or superior to graphical apps and html which is VASTLY superior.
Re:Pasting urls (Score:3, Insightful)
Quite handy for broken text links on slashdot since it gives you the chance to correct them before trying to load the page.
Re:Pasting urls (Score:4, Insightful)
The broken part is that they are two systems.
I have two different systems for heating food in my kitchen. Is that broken? No, and neither is X cut-n-paste, for the same reason. The two different systems are separate, distinguishable and serve different purposes.
The only brokenness is the number of old apps that don't use the selection and clipboard correctly. If you stick to well-written applications you really don't even need to know about the selection/clipboard duality. But you'll be more effective if you do understand and exploit it.
Re:Common problem.. (Score:2, Insightful)
The user, slightly wary, but trusting, cruises along in his slightly strange car. A song comes up on the radio that the user has a particularly passionate hatred for, so he fiddles with the dial to find a new station.
Suddely, the engine sputters out and stalls. The hapless user manages to make it to the side of the road before the car dies completely. Irate, he calls the dealer on his celphone. "Oh, were you listening to 98.3FM?", he says. "Yeah, that station doesn't support the automatic transmission; you have to switch to manual if you want to listen to it. Don't worry! You'll get used to it."
The problem? Because the scheme is so complicated, and because it got changed several times over the lifetime of X, developers haven't always properly supported it. And so, with some programs, Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V simply doesn't work. And then what does old Aunt Grandma User get told by her well-meaning Unix-expert grandnephewson? "Oh, that program works a little differently -- here, let me show you how to do it." She gets confused, forgets which program to use which technique in, tries to paste in a URL with the middle mouse button and all hell breaks loose. "This UNIX stuff is like reading Greek backwards while underwater!" she exclaims. And a little piece of Linux on the desktop dies.
Turn the middle-click off by default. Let the power-users enable it explicitly if they want it.
Use xclip and a hotkey! (Score:2, Insightful)
xclip -o | xargs -iMYCLIP firefox \
-remote "openURL(MYCLIP,new-window)"
Pops up a new window with the selected URL. If you select a whole bunch of URLs, it opens them all in different windows.
Re:Common problem.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Sad really... (Score:3, Insightful)
In all the time I've been using linux applications, this problem has existed. It has gotten better with time, as more standard toolkits are used to develop applications, but the underlying problem is still there and is an absolute CERTAIN stumbling block for new users. They ALWAYS have trouble with the clipboard and quite frankly, don't have the patience many times to try and work around it.
And just to stoke the flames a bit, the clipboard ALWAYS works in Windows and it ALWAYS works exactly the same way and it isn't dependent on any single application being open to store the clipboard data. Such simple things that Windows users do all day every day, such as copying the contents of a word document into notepad to kill all formatting, then copying it back into say a web editor is a task that is typically awkward to attempt in linux applications. And the damn clipboard has worked perfectly in Windows since Windows '95.
WHY can't the clipboard problem be fixed? Why hasn't the clipboard problem been fixed by now? Good grief, I know I am not the only person who has this problem on an HOURLY basis when trying to get ACTUAL work done. There needs to be ONE clipboard mechanism that is useable UNIVERSALLY by all applications. It is such an important thing to get right because it affects so much. And the old highlight it and it is copied crap is just that. It needs to die. That is too much to assume about the user's intention in making a highlight.
Ok, that feels better to get that off my chest.
Re:Pasting urls (Score:3, Insightful)
No, the brokeness is working in an unfamiliar manner compared with EVERY other graphical system in existance without ANY actual gain.
But it does work exactly the way it does in every other GUI. Ctrl-C copies, Ctrl-X cuts, Ctrl-V pastes.
In addition, *if* you choose to use it, there's another mode of operation that allows you to accomplish most of the same tasks with fewer keystrokes.
The gain is that I can copy and paste without touching the keyboard or pulling down menu options. The cost, for those who don't want to use this feature is... NOTHING! (excepting in poorly implemented -- and mostly old --- X apps).
Re:why have a number? (Score:3, Insightful)
Generally, there are only 3 cases: 0 items, meaning a restriction, 1 item, like the normal clipboard, or an infinite (until memory runs out) number of items. This is a good philosophy to work by, unless you have a standard (which you assume won't get broken). People making fixed size buffers are what get people into buffer-overflow attack problems.
Re:Pasting urls (Score:3, Insightful)
One of them is automatically invoked when the middle mouse button is used or text is selected, another has to be manually invoked (in KDE and Gnome with ctrl+c/ctrl+v)
Re:This is a usability problem... (Score:3, Insightful)
"What I am saying is that many people don't understand why highlighting something would copy it. Take a minute to think about that. Shouldn't you have to take some sort of action to copy something?"
I see the X-window way of copying as much more natural. If you highlight something, you don't copy it. You just mark it for some sort of action. Then you either press a key and delete it, or press another key and change it to uppercase, or middle click somewhere and insert a copy of the marked text. You don't actually copy anything until you middle click.
I was always confused by the windows terminology: first you "copy" something, and then you still have to "paste" it? When you "copy" it, where is the copy? I don't see it. Clipboard? What's a clipboard?
There is no reason to use a clipboard for such a simple operation as copying a piece of text. Of course, sometimes you run into a situation where you highlight something for copying, then you realize you want to erase something first. That's when you use a clipboard, to temporarily hold a copy of your text while you highlight something else.
The author of the original article could just as way complain about something like this:
"When I select a text to make it bold, and then decide I need to erase something first, I loose the original selection as I select the text to be erased."
The parent also said:
"But for Linux to really take hold, it needs to adopt functionality that will allow users coming from other UI worlds to function in a reasonably similar environment instead of having to adopt all sorts of strange new conventions."
I cannot believe I cannot use my whip to make my car go faster. Instead, I need to step on some sort of pedal. For cars to really take hold, they needs to adopt functionality that will allow people used to riding horses to function in a reasonably similar environment instead of having to adopt all sorts of strange new conventions.
Of course the real problem is that many new gui applications break the standards and mess up the whole x-window way of copying, mixing up primary selection and clipboard.
Re:Oh boy (Score:3, Insightful)
- Use the same method as in Windows -- highlight text and Control-c in the first window to copy it to the clipboard and then highligt the url in the browsers localtion bar (this will copy the old url to the primery selection but leave the clipboard alone), paste with control-v.
- Highlight the url, switch to the browser window, middle click anywhere in the browser window to go to the url.
- Highlight url, switch to browser, press control-l (Mozilla &co) to go to the location bar, delete/backspace/control-U/control-K to delete existing url, middle click in location bar.
- Highlight url, switch to browser, paste the new url before the old one (middle click), press control-k to delete the old one.
- Konqueror and Firefox both have a button next to the location bar, that erases the current contents of the location bar.
If the primary selection confuses you, just dont use it! All modern applications should support copying and pasting with the clipboard.