Parenting and a Career in Coding? 534
el topher asks: "After 5+ years of being married, my wife and I have been blessed by her becoming pregnant. I've professionally been a programmer for a while now and am now concerned that commercial software development is not a good job for a dad to have. Thinking back on all the software development groups I've been in, it seems most of the coders were not parents, and the coders that were parents seemed to have trouble with things like dealing with unplanned death marches and not being there for their family. So my question to the programmers with kids out there: How does a programming career jive with family life? I'd especially like to hear about parents who have been coding for a while and the situations in this area they've faced."
Am I Missing Something? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd think that a fairly structured, stable, relatively high-paying job is perfect for family life.
It can't be any worse... (Score:2, Insightful)
Easy answer .... (Score:1, Insightful)
Depends on the company (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure there may well be crunch times, but they SHOULD be rare and not "normal".
It's all a matter of expectations by you, your employer and your family. Get them all set up straight up front.
Administrators typically have worse issues, because they tend to have to do things "off-hours".
You make your choices. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been programming professionaly (i.e. not including school) for ten years now. My son is 5 and my daughter is 2.5, and I love them more than anything.
Sometimes I have to work late, but it's very infrequent. I go into work very early so that I can come home early and not miss evenings with them. Sometimes I telecommute so that I can take an hour and go to a program at one of my children's schools.
I do get called after hours and on weekends, but it's extremely rare.
If you've been working in a "slave labor" job where you constantly work late, on weekends, and have no free time, then see line one.
Exactly (Score:5, Insightful)
I would think that changing employers would be easier than moving to a new profession.
nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
If you can manage a wife for 5 years, you sure as hell can manage a kid : if you can not plan free time from work with your SO, then forget about kids.
Re:Am I Missing Something? (Score:3, Insightful)
There's more to family life than having a high regular income.
I often don't see my kids except to say goodnight to them when I come in from work. That's hardly ideal.
Yeah, you are missing something? (Score:5, Insightful)
This disqualifies a certain sector of the development industry where the next release of X product will determine the ongoing fate of the company, and so everything else goes out the window as you try to meet some deadline.
Absent parents cause all sorts of problems -- kids with substance abuse issues, teen parents, low self-esteem... Trust me: I went to a private high school where a fair number of the kids were from rich up-and-coiming families, and a disproportionate number of them were burnouts or had serious problems.
No job and no amount of money is worth seeing your kids slide down the tubes. I'd rather be broke with well-adjusted successful kids than be a millionaire with my kid in rehab.
Simple: Family first (Score:5, Insightful)
Family First.
If your employer can't handle your family obligations, then Family First says you get a new employer who can.
If you are on a project that suddenly requires a lot of work, but your child is sick, then Family First says you take care of your child first then do whatever you can to help out with the project second (if that means late nights, it means late nights, if it means burdening your coworkers then burden them).
Maybe I am fortunate, but I have always worked for companies and/or managers that understand the Family First rule, though that might be because all but one of them had kids, too (the only mgr I had who did not have kids was a complete jerk anyway, and he was soon fired for it).
You're missing something (Score:4, Insightful)
If you can't be home on a regular basis (more than a few times a week, at at least one whole day free) at a reasonable time (in time for dinner or sooner) and be willing to spend quality time with your kid you need to find a new job or expect to not be much of an important part of your kid's life.
What job you're working doesn't matter. It's the hours you work. The hours you are home. And the ability to bond with your kid effectivly within the time you have.
Ben
Re:Am I Missing Something? (Score:5, Insightful)
Also expect to get burnt out.
We have the reverse problem, they moved us from hourly to salary to save money, then expected the same 80 hour weeks. Most people where working the 80 hours for OT, now that they left the company, the work load increased, and PHB want us to do the job with fewer people.
I said, I'm not working another 20 hour day. Stood my ground and they hired some contracters. Only thing they could do was fire me, and man I need a vacation.
Sometimes spending time with the wife is more important than being single and rich. (Or broke if you have kids and paying child support)
priorities (Score:3, Insightful)
If you are willing to put your familiy first, seek after a programming job in a company that does not make "death marches" a regular occurance. It isn't hard to spot this kind of tendency in a corporate culture during a job interview. It usually comes out in the kinds of questions the interviewer asks anyway.
If a career comes first for you, then find the best paying job you can where you will be happy at. You don't have the prerequisite of needing to balance your time with family life.
Of course the best option is a combination of the two. Maybe you can find an employer who will let you work flexible hours, or from home, or whatever. In any event, the bottom line is that you need to find a job that is in line with your priorities with respect to career and family.
My Story.... (Score:3, Insightful)
I also spend a lot of time with my kids. Its all about *making the time* and setting limits. Your family should come first, no matter what indoctrination your current or future employer has given you.
Also, it is encumbent upon you to build in and plan for time that you can spend with your family. Most of the contractors/employees that I work with are married and have one or more kids, so there is nothing stopping you.
Just thought that might help, GJC
Re:Change the where, not the what. (Score:5, Insightful)
To offer a concrete example or two, it is generally better to work for a product oriented company than some place actively looking for projects (send us anything in area X and we will implement it for you). The reason is that product timelines have a bit more flexibility since you're not generally working to please a specific customer, and it also means there will be more planning and (hopefully) fewer adhoc features creeping in.
Another thing is perceptions, though. It's important to make sure that there are other parents in these places. If you're the lone 9 to 5er in a stable full of 20-somethings on the fast track to burnout, then you're going to be noticed and probably not in a positive way (I am narrowly considering the number of hours you have available to put in, of course). My anecdotal evidence, there were subtle cases of discrimination (a loaded term in the US, I know) against programmers with "other" responsbilities when it comes to doing crunch projects. Management tends to favour those who have expressed willingness to throw countless hours into a project. YMMV.
Another thing is, some companies will actually seek to ease your parenting workload, for instance, my last place of work had a daycare facility in the campus itself, so that any employee could drop their toddlers off and pick them up at the end of the working day. It seemed to work out all right and it was only marginally more expensive than conventional daycare (I think.. I don't have any kids ;)
Having said all of that, I think you may be surprised at how resilient kids can be about parents who are actually busy doing work some of the time. It may be an unpopular view, but so long as my parents were there some of the time, I didn't really notice the difference. Both of my parents worked (till their retirement a few years back) and I was a latchkey kid for quite a while. I think having siblings also helps :) I have 3 siblings, so it meant a lot of time playing with them :) It also helped me that I am introverted and didn't mind curling up somewhere with a book. The point is that I think your kids won't mind you occasionally staying late at work (so long as it doesn't happen frequently/regularly).
To conclude, I agree with the parent poster, kudos on planning to spend more time with your kids.. if my former co-workers are any indication, I think that will serve to give you a much sharper focus for getting in, getting the job done ASAP and going home..
Re:It was tough (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Change the where, not the what....and the HOW (Score:2, Insightful)
Get better management (Score:4, Insightful)
As far as long hours, I'm firmly convinced that no good software design gets done while someone is at work. All of the major breakthroughs are made while you're asleep. The only reason to go to work is to type them in and tell people about them. Of course, you'll make some progress on things you're not working directly on, so a 90-hour week once in a while (generally at the last minute before the testing cycle) is good to clean out all the bright ideas you don't know you've had. But a 90-hour week severely cuts into the actually generation of insight, so it kills the next week or two of work (which may be okay, if your next week or two is mostly sitting around waiting for bug reports). If you're doing regular 90-hour weeks, you're working part time and have an extra fulltime job staring mindlessly at a computer.
Re:Change the where, not the what. (Score:5, Insightful)
I work at a university, and my pay is okay, but not great.
We don't have deadlines, and I don't have a pager. I do check my systems to make sure they are running on the weekends, but that is for my own reasons, not my bosses. (I believe I have come in about 4 times on the weekend in the past 5 years to clear up a problem, and each time my boss says "you know you didn't have to do that")
I was offered a job at an outside company, with a 50% pay increase. My bonuses would be tied to the hours I billed to a client. Anything above 35 hours a week (billed) I would have been paid double-time. I could have easily doubled my salary by putting in some extra hours each week.
I declined the job and I have not regretted that decision at all. I spend plenty of time with my family (15 holidays/year, 12 sick days, and 3 weeks of vacation a year) and I'm not going to get an ulcer.
You would have to pay me 10 times what I make now to get me to consider switching over to a high-pressure commercial situation. My priorities are quality of LIFE, not quality of STUFF.
Re:Yeah, you are missing something? (Score:2, Insightful)
No. You're just lucky enough work in a sane environment. They are possible.
In fact I think folks who work in an environment where there is constantly tons of overtime or erratic demands in terms of working hours are working for bad companies who haven't hired enough or the right people or who don't know how to manage projects successfully/properly (budgeting time/people/resources is probably the most crucial part of this).
Working your coders to death is robbing Peter to pay Paul and doesn't get you ahead -- just lets you tread water a bit longer.
Family Time (Score:3, Insightful)
Although you will want to attend all of the birthday parties, school plays, and sports events you may not be able to attend them all. Choose your battles wisely.
easier said than done. (Score:3, Insightful)
There are some, but they are few, far between, and already full of talented programmers who aren't planning on leaving any time soon.
While the goal is great and I agree with it, the fact is that it is very, very difficult to find this sort of IT work, and you may be left looking for years (during which time you will need to deal with family issues, of course).
Of Jobs and Parenting (Score:3, Insightful)
I was married seven years, an in my mid-20s when my first daughter. Fifteen years later, I now have three daughters. And I've had mixed experience with jobs and kids.
The most important factor is: Do you work for people who have kids? If not, there will likely to be problems. People who do not have children do not understand the complexities involved; if the school calls with an emergency, a parent has no choice but to respond, even if they're in the middle of a meeting.
Finding a family-friendly employer is difficult; I know this from both personal and friends' experiences. It isn't just a matter of split loyalties -- although that certainly is a factor. Families require insurance and other benedfits; people with kids tend to catch more minor illnesses. Given a choice between a family man (or woman) and someone equally qualified and unattached, the latter often wins. Long ago, families were considered a sign of responsibility and maturity -- today, family is often seen as a burden.
Families are not the only subject of workplace rpejudice. Beyond the obvious "color" and gender issues, religion, hobbies, and even the kind of car you drive can be cause problems in getting hired or staying employed.
I've handled these problems by going solo; this also allows me to homeschool my daughters, and lets me wear shorts in the gawd-awful Florida heat. Not everyone has that luxury, and I'm grateful that my situation allows freedom.
Re:Change the where, not the what. (Score:5, Insightful)
My basic rule for surviving is simple: refuse to be exploited. I work very little overtime, and I never work on weekends (except when there's a very serious problem, which happens almost never). My career has gone quite well, and I've actually never been accused of being a slacker or anything like that (probably because I produce a lot).
Just say no to routine overtime; if you're a good worker during your 40-hour weeks, no sane boss would make a big deal about you wanting to have a life outside of work. If your boss does make a big deal about it, look for another job (or just ignore the unreasonable requests and keep doing good work; you'll probably outlast the bad bosses if you're a good worker).
By the way, I've found that hourly contracting is actually a good way to avoid unreasonable requests for overtime. If they ask you to stay late, just point out that it's costing them $75/hour extra (or whatever) and they'll probably back off.
Re:Change the where, not the what. (Score:5, Insightful)
> occasionally staying late at work (so long as it
> doesn't happen frequently/regularly).
I know you've written you don't have kids, but as a father whose son turns two just today and whose wife is pregnant, I can tell you that you're missing an aspect you can't know.
I don't want to be at home with my family because I think my son might be somehow "damaged" by me not being there. He'd be just fine, he's a strong personality. I want to be at home to be with my family - be with my wife and see my son and the soon-to-come grow up. Kids grow up only once, you know, and watching videos isn't the same thing. I thought I could imagine how intense it is, but I had no idea. If you plan on getting kids sometime in the future, look forward to it! It's great. Stressful most of the time, but *very* rewarding.
And there's something else. I personally don't need a job, I only need *money*. Working is a pointless waste of time if you look at it objectively. You only go there for the money, and overtime isn't usually paid for, at least where I work. So why spend more time there than necessary while the family has fun at home?
Re:easier said than done. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yeah, you are missing something? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:easier said than done. (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes easier said than done- but easier than finding a whole new career? I think so. Especially if one accepts that this career must provide for a family and allow for a decent amount of time with the family. Switching careers and becoming entry level in almost any field tends to carry with it a drop in pay and less desirable hours.
Is switching employers 'simple' and gauranteed? No- but compared to dropping 5 years of experience and starting over- it just might be.
Finally- I don't work for a big company. I work for a small company. There are 2 developers- we are a financial business and I do internal stuff. Mission critical: yes. Crazy hours: rarely. I have 3 kids ages 4, 3, and 1. I spend a lot of time with them and my wife. It is more than doable. I do make a little less than those working for a large company. But enough for a house, food on the table and a car. (Not a big fancy SUV - but we get where we need to go).
Re:Am I Missing Something? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Change the where, not the what. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is just plain wrong. Your children WILL suffer psychologically, emotionally and developmentally by not having a father around.
I work to support my family. I don't have a family to support my work.
All professionals face this (Score:2, Insightful)
Congrats on the kid.
In virtually every profession where the work isn't measured in hours, but instead by results, this is a huge issue. They often do not go home at shift change everyday. Some days they have to finish the job because its important that they complete a task.
Working by results has the advantage in that some days, you finish early or can work at a nice slow pace. Other days, you must work like dog. If you're having too many days where you work like a dog, a mistake has been made. Maybe you mis-estimated, maybe your boss did. Maybe another team delayed you. Maybe the workload is just too high. In any of these cases, there is a problem that the company's managment needs to address. If you're willing to participate in regular Death Marches...I feel your pain, but I know its a death spiral. Such a lack of planning and proper resource allocation over an extended period indicates seriously flawed leadership. A Death March is only acceptable in times of extreme growth and should be rewarded significantly. Supply and Demand. If they need that much work done...they need to pay for it.
It basicly boils down to time management. If you can manage resources in a machine...as we coders always do...you can figure out how to plan a day that gives you time for work, time for family, time for play and time for sleep.
I was so lucky (Score:2, Insightful)
I worked from home for the first two years of my daughter's life. My wife and I both consulted for the same financial company, were paid quite well, and had enormous flexibility about when we worked. I programmed many times at 3am with a baby in my lap.
It also helped that our boss was a woman with kids. As mentioned by other posters, where you work is more important than what you do when it comes to work/life balance.
Discrimination cuts both ways (Score:5, Insightful)
Dude, you just touched a nerve with that "discrimination" concept. I grok where you're coming from -- but please understand that the "discrimination" feeling cuts both ways.
It doesn't matter whether a team is pulling 80-hour weeks or 40-hour weeks: If Paul Parenthood starts leaving work undone so he can be with Paul Jr., you just suggested that Joe stack the workplace deck with kids who can also leave work unfinished, all for the noble purpose of enabling management to shovel all the work down on those of us who don't have kids. Nice to have you out of the closet.
I realize that's not what you meant, and it's certainly not what you (or Paul Parenthood) intends, but it's what happens.
The common line (usually from a manager with kids) is something like "Well, we're asking you because you don't have children, you don't understand how much harder it is now that Paul has kids now, and because you don't, well, you obviously have so much more spare time than he does, well, we'd like you to do Paul's work."
If asking Paul Parenthood to keep up his productivity is "discriminating against him because he has kids", then so is asking Sam Singleton to pick up Paul's slack when he says he can't.
If there's any advice to the new parent here, it's to be aware that your single, childless, and/or childfree co-workers may feel just as shafted by management as you do!
If there's a silver lining behind this cloud, it's that the friction between parents and single/childfrees is caused to lousy management, not some evilness inherent to breeders or kid-haters. The two camps don't have to hate each other -- nor should they.
I'm lucky to work at a place where I, as a childfree employee, can say "Dude, I need to take care of Geeky Stuff [LOTR comes out, supplies for a LAN party] this afternoon", and he'll say "Go for it, I'll hold down the fort while you're gone." Likewise, my co-workers can say "Dude, I need to take care of Parental Stuff this afternoon", and I'll say "Cool, I'll hold the fort while you're out." More importantly, we're just as comfortable asking those questions in front of -- and sometimes to -- our manager.
It's rare, but there do exist managers who are sufficiently clued to realize that as far as Sam Singleton is concerned, seeing LOTR or setting the weekend's LAN party is just as emotionally important to Sam, as setting up the kid's birthday party is to Paul Parenthood.
If you're in management: Go thou and do likewise. For the sake of all your employees.
Re:Change the where, not the what. (Score:5, Insightful)
Depends on the father. My father wasn't around much when I was a kid, and I would thanks the gods for that on a regular basis. Maybe I've suffered developmentally anyhow in some way, but hey, I'm sure it would have been much worse if he was around more.
Startup Job and Family Can Co-Exist (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't code when they're around, don't ignore them for the CRT - don't ignore them for the boob tube, either, for that matter. DON'T IGNORE THEM. And when they have a recital/play/sporting event, GO HOME AND TAKE THEM.
Forget the boss. If they don't get it, get a different job. Pick one - family or career - to be numero uno. Once the other becomes secondary, it all works out just fine, and you will never look back.
Parenting for geeks (Score:2, Insightful)
Now, it is a constant struggle to keep up with the changes in technology. I used to look down my nose at older programmers who couldn't find jobs because they had just worked their 8 to 5 and hadn't kept their skills up-to-date. I would say it was their own fault for being so lazy. I don't walk so tall or talk so proud anymore. Where once I would jump in on the leading edge of a wave, now I let the field mature for a couple of generations, because I just don't have time to fight with beta-quality technology. Real life presents difficult choices. I'm with those that say sacrificing your children (or your marriage) for your career isn't worth it, but when a geek is "who you are," you may find spooning gruel down the throat of a squirming baby less rewarding than you first imagined.
Here's where I would summarize with some hard-earned wisdom if I had any. Instead, I'll just say, "Hang on and don't feel too sorry for yourself. You're not contending with anything millions of other parents haven't already faced."
Two things... (Score:1, Insightful)
(2) You might just find you have *more* time to be a dork. I have. Unless you have a live-in nanny or Grandma lives across the street (or unless you're a total deadbeat), after the kids are in bed, you stay home. Forget movies, hanging out at the bar after work, etc. What are you going to do from 8:00 p.m. onward?
Parenting, Coding, and Sept 11 (Score:2, Insightful)
This isn't so much about Sept 11 but that I never so badly wanted to be with my daughter and had absolutely no interest whatsoever in coding. Having a kid brings out some pretty strong emotions that you really aren't prepared for, and then to be thrust into a situation where you are away from her for such a long period of time was practically unbearable. Frankly, I made all kinds of plans to give up coding altogether.
However, I'm still coding, three years later, in a different city, in a different industry. Sure there are late nites, but now that she's older, it's easier; I don't get a lot done at home when she's awake, so I have to limit my "fun" stuff till after she has gone to bed. That means I can play from 8pm to 11-12 and still be able to function the next day.
Bottom line is this: Make sure you are not in any kind of deathmarch situation when s/he's born, and hopefully for many months afterwards. It'll be absolutely crazy, for you, for your wife, and for the kid too, even though s/he's thinking entirely about eating and sleeping.
I thought pure joy was the day I got my first mac, or when I successfully booted up my first home-compiled linux box, or when I met Patrick Stewart in Central Park. Nothing even comes close to the feelings you get when you hold your kid for the first time (ok, meeting Patrick Stewart comes *a little* close)
Good luck to you and may your kid grow up healthy and happy...and be able to kick your ass in Quake 10 (cause you know it's gonna happen
Wanda
You need to keep to a fixed schedule (Score:2, Insightful)
You'll need to adjust your hours to that schedule. For a lot of people that means shifting from being a nightowl to working early morning hours. Late afternoon/early evening seems to be prime coding hours for single people. Usually it doesn't work that way if you're married with kids. Everything is driven off the kids bedtime. That sets your family dinner and bedtime story times.
Larry
It's not so bad (Score:3, Insightful)
I also find nothing puts a baby to sleep better than laying on your lap while you are typing away on the keyboard. Well... when he's too tired to bang as hard as he can on the keys that is.
Re:There's no secret to it (Score:1, Insightful)
"Where" is in another direction (Score:3, Insightful)
I have a 5-year old, and a 2-year-old, and they (with the wifey of course) are the absolute center of my existence. When we relocated from Switzerland to Manhattan, I went without work for 9 months. In that span, I spent a tremendous amount of time looking for the desk job in big companies here on Wall Street - Goldman Sachs, Guardian, etc.
But it was a complete waste of time, and I would have never known it.
I also contacted several smallish companies (less than 20 staff) that had minimal-to-no IT staff. They also happened to be financial research firms, and needed desperate help building business systems that were proprietary, internal, and provided competitive advantage. It is these companies that I am making a relatively good living from today, and I DO IT FROM HOME.
I'm paid (and trusted) because of my experience, multi-talented background, and that I have a network of folks I can contact in a pinch to get anything done. I'm not asking for the big bucks, just enough for a family of four to live in comfort and some reasonable financial safety.
I see my kids every day, I am home for lunch every day, and we all love the setup more than you would ever believe.
A VERY important addition to this little tale: my 5-year-old was recently diagnosed with epilepsy - not the hollywood-version where she flops around like a fish on the floor, but the type where she just stares off into NeverNeverLand, and has no idea that the conversation has moved on (when she comes back to you) - in short, this little girl is fighting a battle for control over her mind, a battle that she frequently loses.
Now, realistically, be the wife here. You got a 2-year-old who has 'defensive lineman' written all over him, and he is a handful... On top of that, you have a 5-year-old that you are now homeschooling - there's no rational expectation that she will get patience and understanding in a room with 30 other kids, and an overworked/underpaid teacher that is pressured over the big numbers, not over the quiet little girl sitting in the back...
DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!
Understand that becoming a parent is not always the perfect picture - and always being gone is a recipe for disaster, as not only are you spending all your time making someone else rich, you are also committing to not being there for your family when they may need you the most.
If you really have been at this for some years, and have been successful at it, then you should be able to find two or three smaller companies that need your expertise, and take on projects with all of them. None of the projects will be grand on an individual scale, and none of these companies could afford a large-scale project anyway! You take the three projects, and add the income up to a very good 'salary' with the ability to stay home with your family, and you also get the challenge of solving a diverse array of problems for different people.
You will have fun! No whiners because you stop work to have dinner with the kids, as you will be home anyway. You are a grownup now, and can(should) set that schedule yourself!
Re:"unplaned death marches"? (Score:5, Insightful)
There is almost no excuse for death march projects in modern software development. It is just poor management and/or a team not experienced enough to tell management that they don't know what the hell they are doing (in a diplomatic way naturally).
Re:Discrimination cuts both ways (Score:4, Insightful)
It's management's problem if they can't adequately staff the workplace. If you are choosing to work a bunch of overtime hours to impress Supervisor Schmuck that's up to you. But it's not fair to blame that on the guy who can stick up for himself and tell management that their family comes first.
If your project requires people to pick up co-workers overtime on top of their own in order to meet deadlines, either it is understaffed or mismanaged. By sticking up for yourselves instead of giving into management it will leave them in a position to either manage their project better or re-evaluate their profit margins on the project. On the other hand, they could replace you with someone who will put in a bunch of overtime hours and burn themselves out in 5 years.
Re:Discrimination cuts both ways (Score:4, Insightful)
If you allow your time be sucked away because you don't have a hard commitment that pulls you away...don't blame those who can't make the same choice.
I have 3 year old twins, a father first and a coder second, and I don't work ridiculous hours. But you know what? I actually work when I am there. It's amazing how productive a regular day is when you don't spend your time at the watercooler or bitching about their workload (like many around me). I'm happy to look hyperproductive when fellow team members put in more hours with less visible results.
Re:Discrimination cuts both ways (Score:5, Insightful)
True enough. A competent manager should strive to allocate work fairly according to professional -- not personal -- concerns. Though a competent manager also must realize that people are humans, and their personal life infringes on their professional life (and vice versa).
as far as Sam Singleton is concerned, seeing LOTR or setting the weekend's LAN party is just as emotionally important to Sam, as setting up the kid's birthday party is to Paul Parenthood.
Poppycock! As a father and a manger, as well as a dyed in the wool geek, I can tell you without equivocation that the emotional attachment you may feel to LOTR is in no way comparable to the emotional connection a parent has with his or her children. Parents quit jobs routinely to spend time with their children. I would die for my daughter. If your child is seriously ill, functioning normally enters the realm of the courageous.
There are social and personal consequences involved if you neglect your parenting responsibilities. If you miss the opening of LOTR, who gives a fuck?
It seems like this is more a question of limits... (Score:3, Insightful)
And this coming from a business owner, not an employee, I've been in jobs where I was constantly asked to work overtime/etc managing servers, I just put my foot down and said "ok fine get me business class DSL in my house, and I'm gonna work from home a couple days a week", so I'd go in Mon, Thurs and Friday, and work from home the rest of the time over VPN, they were happy, I was able to work "overtime" (salaried of course) and I was happy, I spent much more time at home so I could at least see the wife and rugrat.
Now I work my business from home full time, heck I don't even have offices, why bother... everyone who works for me works from home on a performance based pay system.
Re:Yeah, you are missing something? (Score:3, Insightful)
Experience shows that true emergencies are few and far between. Most problems were seen coming far in advance, but were swept under the rug to save money (or to avoid admitting schedule trouble). The cost and time to fix the festering problem mushrooms, causing new "emergencies" to erupt as resources are "temporarily" diverted to the crisis du jour. Exponential growth at its worst!
If you're working more than 10 hours in any day or more than five days a week, you're likely to be losing more time correcting mistakes than you gain in extra productivity. Mental and physical fatigue will do you in--not the first day, maybe not even in a month--but sooner or later overwork will eat you alive. It's not worth ruining your health and your family to slave over a product that nobody will care about ten years from now.
Your best bet is to do the best work you can, while keeping your eyes open for a (less in)sane employer. When the right opportunity comes, bail out (and don't feel guilty about it--guilt is the abuser's favorite tactic, both in the workplace and in personal life).
(*) For non-US readers, an "exempt" employee is one who is not legally entitled to additional pay for overtime work. Unethical employers commonly abuse this by assigning far more work than can be accomplished in the presumed 40 hour workweek. The really daft ones waste the entire 40 hours on useless meetings and other counter-productive nonsense, so that all the productive work must be done "off the clock"!
Re:Discrimination cuts both ways (Score:2, Insightful)
solution: state to ensure 2-yr [mp]aternity leave (Score:3, Insightful)
>productivity is "discriminating against him because
>he has kids", then so is asking Sam Singleton to
>pick up Paul's slack when he says he can't.
The solution to this dilemma could be to give Paul a two-year (paid) leave, during which he is replaced by an employee with a limited-time contract, and giving a guarantee to Paul that when he's over this very important period he can have his old job back.
No employer would perhaps subscribe to such a system voluntarily, however it can be implemented as a law, as is the case in Germany and other European countries, for instance.
And of course it does not matter whether it's Paul Parenthood, or Paula (his wife), or whether they both want to share the leave and do 50 % each.
The other question is can you stay 2 years without any coding...? ;-)
Re:Change the where, not the what. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sorry you think that way.
As a former teacher, with years of experience working with learning disabled and emotionally disturbed (those are the actual names of the classifications of the students), I can tell you that he's already "damaged" in ways you can't see. It could be that it's something he doesn't show, or that you're just too busy. It's just a matter of whether you want to stay in denial over it, or whether you want to mitigate or heal the damage by changing the attitude and realizing your son needs to see his father, as a role model, as a guardian, and as a guide, as much as possible.
While it's only from "pop" culture, do an online search for the lyrics to the song "Cat's in the Cradle." It's about a man who is too busy working to spend time with his son. His son idolizes his father and keeps saying he's going to grow up like him. When the kid is grown and doesn't have time for his father, the father realizes his son is just like him.
Your son, strong character or not, needs you around -- perhaps even more so in order that his strong character is molded and shaped toward the positive, so he learns to try new positive experiences, rather than to explore activities that might lead him to negative choices. I saw many students who ended up in mental health institutions who had strong characters, but lacked role models who were constantly there to show them how to make positive choices instead of negative ones.
Probably repeating (Score:1, Insightful)
Get your priorities straight!
Keep the job in perspective (Score:5, Insightful)
Bear in mind that your employer does not necessarily have your best interests in mind. This isn't a knock at any current or past employer of mine, or of anyone else. It's simply a fact- they will always welcome you working more hours (salaried folks, you know what I'm talking about). It's up to you to set limits. Many employers will respect those limits. They may limit your career advancement (either in terms or raises, or promotions, or both) - keep that in mind, but set priorities. How important is your family versus your current (or potential future) rewards at work? If you don't think that this is a difficult question, you may not be thinking hard enough.
In December of 2002, I found myself stressing out that I was spending too much time at work (over the last ~2 years) and not enough time at home. I kept thinking, "I must do something about this soon!"
At that time, my step-daughter took her own life. She was going through a lot of troubles. The brutal truth of the matter is that I was spending so much time and energy at work that I was often not home, and when I was, I was not interacting much with my wife or step-daughter.
I believe that my inattention and lack of commitment to my family at that time was a primary contributor to that situation. I don't believe that it was the sole cause, but I do believe that it was a primary factor. I'll never know for sure. No one will.
Had I quit my job at that time, I would have sacrificed my family's primary source of income. We could not have paid our bills, including the mortgage on our house. We'dve lost our home, our car, and our livelihoods. Clearly, that would not have been a good situation.
I believe that I could have found a better balance than the one that I did.
All I can do for others is suggest that they seek a balance.
While I'm on the soapbox (I very rarely post on slashdot), I'll also mention that she was on Accutane. I have no evidence that this was a direct cause of what happened, but I firmly believe it to be true. If you have children, I strongly encourage you to learn more about accuatane before you allow them to consume it. Check the PDR, periodicals, the web, or whatever other resources that you feel comfortable with. Also, ask yourself the same question that I (implicitly) encourage you to ask above: Is this issue worth it? Is your child's life/well-being worth this risk?
Parenting and programming have a hard time mixing. (Score:3, Insightful)
- Every place I've worked, both big and small, impose unhealthy expectations of developers.
- As a community we are often our own worst enemies because we often "volunteer" extra time by staying late on our own, especially when single and not yet with children. The pattern of behavior is easy to understand: usually we're young, eager to learn and produce, but it then sets the bar very high regarding what kind of commitment a developer is supposed to have towards work.
A few of things to keep in mind:
- It's only a job, if you love programming, then they cannot take that away from you. Save your fun programming for yourself.
- It's only a job (yes, I said it twice), if your current employer is a prick regarding expected commitment, leave. I really mean it: leave. A-holes who expect gratis death-march labor without giving back in a big and meaningful way deserve to be put out of business. Period.
- As far as is scientifically known this is your ONLY LIFE. The extra time you put into work and not spending time with your loved-ones WILL NOT COME BACK! Always keep this in the forefront of your mind.
- Stand your ground: DON'T do weekends, DON'T do extra hours. Even if you get paid hourly, this financial situation is no license to assume that all of your free time is up for sale. Commit extra time, but place limits. If found that if you behave as if your time is valuable people will respect that. If they don't: leave.
- Whining a-holes that are in a situation where they can "freely" donate ridiculous quantities of their "free" time that bitch about "Paul Parenthood" going home without "finishing their work" can talk to the hand. Grow up: until science provides (scary) alternatives to continuing our species though procreation we are responsible for RAISING OUR CHILDREN. You are someone's child, think from the child's point of view does this make sense: "Ok Daddy/Mommy stay at work late or on the weekends because the 'project's gotta get done' and you don't want all the shit to flow to the D.I.N.Ks. and singles, besides, why would you want to spend time with me?" The first time one of you mal-adjusted idiots complain to me about folks going home after business hours are over will find your sorry asses on the unemployment line. Seek professional help.
- If your managing programmers (and I did this OFTEN as a engineering director) CHASE PEOPLE OUT OF THE OFFICE. You won't have whiny a-holes because you make it clear that your EMPLOYEES are there for REGULAR BUSINESS HOURS. IF you REGULARLY expected people to put in long hours than PAY THEM HOURLY! I'll say it again PAY THEM HOURLY!!! It is the ONLY ETHICAL THING TO DO. Any argument to the contrary is self-serving rationalization.
Conclusion:
Personally, get out of the software business. DON'T stop coding if that is your calling, just code for yourself and others. Spread the fruits of you labor.
If you only went into programming as a job, then continue because you don't really care, but there are better ways to make a living.
Re:priorities change (Score:2, Insightful)
I've worked with people who couldn't get into work on time if their life depended on it, who refused to do overtime because they always had a hot date, who would take days off without prior warning because they got so drunk the previous night they couldn't get out of bed in the morning...
Guess what, they were all single. This is what's called "anecdotal" evidence; i.e., effectively worthless as a useful statistic.
One final word: I hope I never have someone as prejudiced as yourself for a manager. Discarding the majority of the working population because of one bad employee... sheesh.
From the other end... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm the child of a programmer. (Yeah, I've ended up as a programmer too--or will end up as one, once I finish school.) I don't really have a baseline to compare it to, but I think my father does fairly well.
He's technically a consultant, although he's been working eight-to-five at the same job for several years. Being a consultant gave him the flexibility to find time to coach most of my sports teams (a couple years of Little League and AYSO, plus nearly a decade of roller hockey). The few hockey teams he didn't coach, he was involved at the school or even league level.
Consultancy doesn't give you the benefits--health, retirement, etc.--of a normal job, but it makes the trade-off more explicit: each hour you take off from work has a specific dollar amount attached to it. The decision is simple: is it worth $30 or $60 or whatever it is you make per hour to see your kid sing or play or do whatever (s)he is doing? Your schedule is yours to determine, as long as you make sure you get your contracts done.
My father's division used to belong to a large non-technical corporation; recently, some of its employees bought the division from the corporation it belonged to. My father was one of the investors, so he's changed from a consultant to a salaried worker. (His job duties have also changed--they're having him dabble in managing other programmers while still doing most of the design work. He isn't a suit--yet--as most of his time is still consumed by interacting with the computer and designing various parts of the program he works on.)
Since that change, he's been spending more time at work; he still seems to find time for actual events, but he's been missing dinner more often, and stuff like that. I can't tell if the change is because he's working for a salary now, or if it's because he's now working for a small company instead of a large corporation, or if it's because of his new job duties--there are no control groups in life.
I get the sense that my father's situation was somewhat unusual, so you may want to take this whole thing with a bit of NaCl, but it's something to think about.
I will say this, though: if any of your kids are technical types, they will idolize you. And even fi they aren't, they'll be glad to have the kind of dad who can fix all the gadgets around the house.
KISS (Score:2, Insightful)
Have a weel defined room for work. Predefine set hours to work in. Only work in those hours. Stop working outside of those hours. If you are going to extend those hours or reduce them, discuss with spouse first.
Do not work excessive hours, unless it is pre-ok'd or only temporary.
NEVER let an appointment conflict with an event of your childs. Cancel the appointment first. Always.
Re:Discrimination cuts both ways (Score:1, Insightful)
I don't think the original poster meant much by equating children with movies. But there are many people with children who honestly consider many things in life to be more emotionally significant than their own children. Swing a rope in your neighborhood and you will hit some of these people who should have never had children in the first place; or go visit an orphanage if you need more proof. Millions of years of evolution just affects the probability that a person will find a child emotionally significant (and given the vast number of abused, neglected and unwanted children in the world I say: millions of years of evolution doesn't mean shit).
The emotional argument is really absurd. It's like saying "Until you have obsessive compulsive disorder you cannot possibly understand the emotional significance of doing the same thing over and over again," and using that as a justification for Bob, who spends hours each workday in the bathroom washing his hands hundreds of times. I'm sure that for Bob there is profound emotional significance in his washing his hands. But the rest of us ask: why should we care?
My point is that you can't argue with someone who says that Lord of the Rings is more emotionaly significant than a child. Thats the problem with emotion: you can't prove or disprove how someone feels about something. That's why Appeal to Emotion is a logical fallacy.
Re:Change the where, not the what. (Score:1, Insightful)
Yes, you have fiance, but no children.
Wait you becoming parent.
Then it will be "children first, spouse second, work... well I need it for first two".
Parents are better workers in some respects (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not that one group is better or worse then another. A smart manager will put a parent in a role where they'll be successful based on their particular strengths. The ability to work late is not necessarily an advantage, depending on the quality and velocity of work produced during the period.
You need to learn how to make the mental transition to become this type of employee (focused and a little more serious). Time management is a skill you will master by necessity ; why wait for experience to teach you. Get busy, man!
Not a programer (Score:3, Insightful)
Doctors appointmnts are more important than I thought. Go if you can.
30 minutes of reading to your kids before bed is worth hours doing almost anything else.
Bring them to your office once in awhile if you can. I never knew how important this was until I changed jobs that did not allow any outside visitors and my kids couldnt see where I was when I was not home.
Show up for lunch at their school twice a year and they will talk about it all year and be the envy of 90% of their friends.
Make parent teacher conferences. If the teachers know you are involved, 50% of the normal issues never even happen.
include your family in any work related recognition. It lets them kow why you were gone and reminds your boss how important your family is to you.
Someday I intend to retire. I plan on having a family to spend time with. Your company will not show up at your funeral, your family will (ok, turth in lending, my company will!).
Good luck!
Re:Discrimination cuts both ways (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not that parents want to get out of doing our work, it's that we don't want to do more work than we signed up for.
I became an employee after 12 years as a consultant literally days before my son was born. A big part of the reason I did so was so that I could work *only* 40 hours per week. Unfortunately, Management's desire to get six month projects done in a month hasn't helped that.
It doesn't help, either, when the kids *do* work 80+ hours a week, grumbling about how the parents don't. No one should have to work more than they agreed to or are paid for. For the last two years, I have consistently worked more than 40 hours each week, usually around 42-45. Often, I've worked a lot more. Last week, I put in 67.5 hours -- and my wife is 9 months pregnant.
I don't mind working a little overtime now and then, or even a lot once in a while, but continually working 60+ hours is not what I signed up for. If you, as a young kid, are stupid enough to skip your parties and movies and so on, simply because management is too cheap to hire enough people or incompetent at scheduling, that's your problem. Just don't get pissed at those smart enough to stick to the bargain they made.