Networking in the Danger Zone? 691
Croaker-bg asks: "I currently am an Information Security/ Network Engineer for a large government contract firm and have recently seen several solicitations come across email regarding gigs in the Middle East and surrounding regions, including both Iraq and Afghanistan. Understanding that the pay might be good for being willing to face the hazards, I continue to have my curiosity perked by these short-term jaunts. Lately however, the news of fellow contractors being abducted has put a new spin on the hazards of working abroad in these areas. Has anyone survived such a trip and lived to tell the tale with a fat wallet? If so, would you consider doing it again or is it just to dangerous?"
no time for love dr jones (Score:5, Insightful)
hmmm... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:no time for love dr jones (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Skin color is important (Score:5, Informative)
What's much more important in terms of standing out is how you dress and how you act. If you can speak the local language, or at the very least Arabic which is something of a lingua franca throughout the region, you've got a huge advantage. If you can dress like the locals and walk like you belong there, you're not likely to stand out as a target regardless of skin colour.
Nonetheless, neither place is at all safe for westerners, particularly ones carrying blue passports, regardless of skin colour or even linguistic ability. There is a lot to be said for travelling to broaden your worldview, but right now Iraq and Afghanistan would not be on my list of places to go.
You'd be better off becoming a drug dealer (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:You'd be better off becoming a drug dealer (Score:2, Funny)
You are the King of the Trolls!
Re:You'd be better off becoming a drug dealer (Score:2, Insightful)
I would prefer the void of death to the destroyed life of jail. Frankly, I wonder why this guy facing the death penalty is fighting to the Supreme Court for life in prison; isn't death preferable?
Re:You'd be better off becoming a drug dealer (Score:5, Funny)
I apologize in advance, but it's fairly obvious you haven't thought this through.
A friend of mine got off parole awhile back for selling weed; he now has a life, a steady girlfriend and a house. For a more popular example, google "Tim.Allen drugs" (even though I think he's a schmuck).
Jail is just a stumbling block. Death, OTOH, is permanent.
Of course, I suppose you could get unlucky/stupid and die in jail, negating my point.
Not worth it (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not worth it (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not worth it (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not worth it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not worth it (Score:4, Insightful)
hummmm. The lessons of USSR are totally lost. They cracked down all their citizens and border. Yet, it was totally porus. Same here. Even if we spent 1/4 of our budget on guarding borders, ppl, weapons and drugs would still come in.
Re:Not worth it (Score:5, Informative)
Was your question about the "front lines" serious, or some sort of display of ignorance?
Re:Not worth it (Score:5, Interesting)
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.
There's no place in Iraq where you're likely to be kidnapped. There are places where the possibility is higher than others, but nowhere is it likely.
Of course, if you're the one snatched, tortured, and beheaded, I guess it really doesn't matter what the odds were.
And as for the crap about the "front lines." Wake up, you moron! (Whichever moron posted the remark, I mean.) There are no more front lines. Iraq is incredibly peaceful and incredibly secure when you consider what it's been through recently. Hell, there are many places in the United States that are less safe, in terms of per capita violent crime, than most of Iraq. I'd feel safer wandering the streets of Basra or Baghdad or Mosul at night than I would walking to or from the Metro stop in southeast D.C.
Get your facts straight! (Score:5, Informative)
To contribute to the grandparent's discussion, as far as I know you are kind of supposed to know how to deal with a gun if you are a civilian contractor down there, or at least carry it. (Got the story from a lady working for one of the aerospace companies who was visiting Iraq briefly, and she told that you are given a gun to hold and at least pretend that you know how to use it).
As to the actual 'Ask
To answer the question, I guess that my wife would not let me go there...
Paul B.
Re:Get your facts straight! (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether or not he was truly a civilian, of course, remains to be seen. But given that he voluntarily surrendered in order to ``clear things up''? I give him the benefit of the doubt. At least enough to refrain from beating him to death.
Re:Not worth it (Score:4, Insightful)
More directly to the original story. There are easier ways to make a lot of money than that. You life, for the entirety of your stay in the middle east, is likely to suck. Get 2 jobs and you'll be happier, and get to survive.
Re:Not worth it (Score:4, Interesting)
Its not for everyone, by far, I wouldn't do it either, but if you want to, its not a total death warrant. The aforementioned acquaintance has been there for a year now, with his gf who is also doing contractor work.
Mercenary (Score:4, Interesting)
Whether you think the "state" argument applies here or not, realize it ain't just about the money. For $100k a year are you willing to become part of an occupying force? To the natives that's what you will represent, and all your income will be tainted with the blood both of the natives who died in the occupation and of the "allied" soldiers who died not for the money, but because they thought it their duty to be there when their country asked.
To quote Rick Blaine: I don't mind a parasite; I object to a cut-rate one.
Re:Not worth it (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not worth it (Score:3, Insightful)
Horseshit...
Unless of course the "attackers" were unarmed...ie, Iraqi civilians...
Where are these jobs? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Where are these jobs? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Where are these jobs? (Score:5, Informative)
Are you joking? (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't an opportunity. You aren't "helping shape a newborn government" or whatever. Even if you're Christian, Iraq is the oldest place on earth. If you need the money, do it. Otherwise, don't.
Re:Are you joking? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Are you joking? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, how dare the people that work for the likes of Halliburton expect to actually get paid for risking their lives to try to establish a decent way of life for Iraqis - they should be willing to give up their lives and do it for free, nay, why even paying to be there, just like I'm sure you with all your insight into world affairs certainly are ... oh wait ...
Re:Are you joking? (Score:4, Insightful)
I suppose its possible some Halliburton employees are idealists who are there to rebuild Iraq for the Iraqis....gag....sorry....thats so ridiculous I can't even say it with a straight face. They are there for the money too.
I have to weigh in on this one (Score:4, Informative)
In case you were unaware, these contractors keep guys on the ground in those countries; some of them have been there for 20 years or more. These are local people who live there, speak the language, and are employed/paid by these companies to maintain caches of equipment, buildings, etc... these companies don't just fly in a bunch of pale-faces, rake in the cash, and fly out.
They subcontract with a lot of local people to cook food, do construction, and all manner of services for the military, and they do a fair job of it. They maintain a lot of relationships... It's probably a little unfair to simply characterize them as profiteering gluttons (and no, I don't work for them, never have, and don't plan to).
Contractors provide a lot of services, and while they certainly do it for a profit, that's no different from 99% of people in a capitalist system. Doing things out of the goodness of your heart is very noble, but money's a powerful motivator, and people going out into a war zone to do a job (particularly if they're providing expertise that the Iraqis need) should get a fair wage... I'd say they're earning it.
Re:I have to weigh in on this one (Score:3, Insightful)
Using contractors to interrogate prisoners is an even better example of how deeply flawed it is for an Army to be at the mercy of profiteers for critical services. You can't make them a
Re:Are you joking? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, because as we all know, Halliburton is in Iraq to establish a better way of life for Iraqis, not because of the huge no-bid contracts [commondreams.org] that were coordinated by ex-CEO and now Vice Predident Dick Cheney. [yahoo.com]
Pardon me if I fail to see the humanitarian intentions of an oil company with close - possibly criminal - ties to the administration.
Don't risk your life. (Score:2, Insightful)
You risk your life every day you live (Score:5, Insightful)
For example: just a few years ago, seven people were gunned down [cnn.com] at a computer engineering firm in Massachusetts. But if I were offered a job in Massachusetts, I doubt that questions of personal safety would even enter my mind.
Of course I'm not saying the Middle East is safer than Massachusetts (though if it keeps you from eating at McDonald's too often, it may well be)! But don't let high profile shock stories bias your judgement too much.
Re:You risk your life every day you live (Score:4, Insightful)
The Israelis on the OTOH, were far less hospitable.
Attempting to lump the middle east into one bucket is shortsighted and narrow minded. It is a place politically and ethnically diverse as Europe.
Re:Don't risk your life. (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, it's more dangerous than a lot of the places in the US/Europe/etc, but, nowhere near as bad as the media tries to make it out.
Last time I was in the area, during the HIGHT of the previous "war", I found one, yes ONE, person who got in my face for being "American". I politely explained to him that I was not, and even if I were I was there as a traveler not as a representant of my government. He refused let it be and soon enough the other people around told him, in Arabic, to shut up and leave us alone - I was there with a friend.
Eventually he tried to "get physical" and I chucked him off the ferry (Yes in the water. No the capitan was not amused; but, when the locals explained the situation he had a hard time refraining from laughing.).
The rest of locals were VERY apologetic for this a-hole's behaviour and congratulated me on having the guts to stand up to him.
Or, maybe I am just a lucky bastard?
A Rescue Disk... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:A Rescue Disk... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:A Rescue Disk... (Score:4, Funny)
i've always wanted to do this... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:i've always wanted to do this... (Score:2, Insightful)
Ask this guy (Score:5, Informative)
*in song* (Score:4, Funny)
Tom Cruise would be so proud of me.
Re:*in song* (Score:5, Funny)
You gotta use SSH!
Use Common Sense! (Score:2, Interesting)
You're not alone (Score:5, Informative)
Hats Off (Score:2, Interesting)
Big props go to you guys who are not letting the terrorists scare you away. You are indeed pioneers! It's like the ole west over there with money to be made in the face of great danger.
If you can look at those pictures on drudge and still bring yourself to go... you deserve the big dollars for your brass balls.
Those people are living in a phucked up world right now... they need honest people over there to help them... and to let them know that the basic American is not the military that they fear.
AC
FYI Job Seekers. Surival Tips (Score:2, Funny)
Steps to avoid abduction.
1.) Yank server out of cabinet
2.) Lift server over head
3.) Strike assailent with server.
4.) Repeat as necessary
You forgot a couple steps... (Score:3, Funny)
6) Profit!
I did... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I did... (Score:5, Informative)
I say this having been born in south africa, living in Johannesburg, working in malaysia, and living now in LA.
Re:I did... (Score:3, Interesting)
Joburg (where I live now) is like any big city in the US or Europe (and I've been to a few): good areas, dodgy areas and absolute no-go areas. Even Lagos can
Re:I did... (Score:4, Interesting)
I've been in some crappy neighborhoods, had friends mugged or beaten up, here in New York, when I lived in Ft. Lauderdale, and so on. These places can be dangerous, and I've heard Johannesburg, Mexico City and the lot can be much worse. And actually, aside from 9-11, I haven't known anybody who's died by an act of random violence in New York, and I don't even know anybody that's been robbed or mugged since Giuliani was elected mayor. In any case, there's dangerous, then there's just fucking crazy.
What ARE you thinking? (Score:3, Interesting)
You are not a target for some whack-job and their Whoopie-knife. Keep your head right where it belongs, atop your shoulders.
Greed, quite literally, KILLS these days.
Whatever happened to the Army Corps Of Engineers? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Whatever happened to the Army Corps Of Engineer (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with that arrangement is that if there are profits to be made from the teat of the US taxpayer (or local oil money), the Corps of Engineers cannot provide them.
Re:Whatever happened to the Army Corps Of Engineer (Score:3, Informative)
The CoE does mostly CIVIL engineering. Dams, flood control, and miscelaneous hydrology are their main contribution to infrastructure creation. They're mainly a construction corps. Anything requiring esoteric technical knowledge is generally contracted out to private companies that specialize in those sorts of things.
Maybe it's time... (Score:3, Insightful)
If the CoE can handle civil, it can learn most IT tasks.
pics (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.darchiver.com/gallery/Vince
well, some personal pics in there as well. skip those.
Hazard Pay (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Hazard Pay (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Hazard Pay (Score:5, Interesting)
Blood Money (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Blood Money (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Blood Money (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the immorality of the companies you list would be in falsely charging US taxpayers for things that they did not do, not the simple fact that they are rebuilding Iraq for a price. If they were doing it at a fair rate there would be no moral issue at all in my mind.
Establishing a fair rate is an interesting problem on days like today when a contractor's head gets cut off for no apparent reason. What sort of hourly rate do you need to put yourself in that position? Perhaps we should be civil enough to rebuild Iraq for free, but if noone qualified signs up for that job, is it immoral to do it at an hourly rate? An interesting question...
Simple, moral, solution. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not hire and train Iraqi citizens to rebuild it?
There, no moral questions about hourly pay rates for the citizens of the country that bombed them in the first place.
Recent Episode of Thsi American Life (Score:3, Informative)
Depends upon the security arrangements (Score:4, Interesting)
Okay. It depends upon the security arrangements. First of all working in a second or third world country is very cool. There's nothing like the culture shock while at the same time being an expert compared to most people around you. Second, there is a big difference between having to work outside a secure compound and working inside the compound. If your inside the compound, changes are you'll spend most of your time there is a pretty secure environment and the only time you'll leave is to go on vacation to Dubai or someplace like that and have a significantly better chance at meeting some rich heiress that if you worked in the states.
One the other hand, if you're working outside a secure compound (like for example as a civil or petrolium engineer), make sure your paid well. While you'll still be pretty secure, you never know what'll happen. That being said, when they say that contractors are being targetting, they really are talking about security contractors who are ex navy seal types.
Go to the Balkans (Score:5, Informative)
As far as the Middle East, I think you could remain pretty safe if you just kept to yourself and didn't do too much playing around outside of the base.
On a related note, I would like to see a comparison of the daily murder rate in Iraq compared to the daily murder rate for an inner-city such as, oh, let's say Detroit. Granted, beheading is a bit worse than a drive-by, but it's not like it's an every-day thing.
Are other people's experiences that relevant? (Score:5, Insightful)
But if possibly becoming a target, or even being the unfortunate victim of a friendly fire incident, makes your stomach churn then don't do it.
These are warzones that you're talking about. Don't step into one because someone else says that they'd do it, step into one because you know that you're comfortable doing it. You only have one life, so don't lead it according to how someone else would lead their's.
Bottom line: is the job worth potentially dying for? Only you can answer that for yourself.
I'm from the Private Sector, and I'm here to help (Score:5, Informative)
Money fades. Bullet holes don't. (Score:5, Informative)
Money fades. Bullet holes don't.
My advice is to go... (Score:5, Insightful)
...but if you get abducted and beheaded, don't expect me to shed a tear. I have little sympathy for the carpet-baggers currently over around Iraq's moribund corpse.
Re:My advice is to go... (Score:4, Insightful)
Its no worse than many other places (Score:3, Informative)
About a year ago, I purchased a grey market tractor from a man who makes his living off of international trade. He has spent much time on foreign soils wheeling and dealing heavy equipment. He has a physique like a green beret, was raised on a farm, and yet has a law degree with a specialty in international law. I recognized him as an expert in international affairs. Someone in the trenches, not the ivory towers. And I started asking him about his experiences.
Amongst the more interesting things he stated was that given the current world situation, even before the whole deal with Iraq started, he had decided to stay home for a while. He might consider a trip to Canada, but would not go to Mexico without a few of his ex-Ranger body guards and would under no circumstance venture to South America. He said that worldwide, it had become an accepted business to capture Americans and ransom them back or use them for political means. The authorities in the countries were of no help and usually on the bankroll themselves.
This was not your average everyday traveller, but a seasoned veteran with heavy duty protection.
After that discussion and listening to his accounts of how common this problem actually was, especially of friends and acquaintances he knew in the biz who had actually encountered troubles, I'm surprised that there hasn't been far more trouble in Iraq. In truth, it sounds as if the heavy protection being supplied to the contractors there is making them safer than if they were in South America. The only difference is that both the news media and the captors involved in the Iraq situation are motivated to amplify this microcosm of the overall story while they seem motivated to suppress the story of the true worldwide situation.
So, enjoy your trip to Iraq. But be very careful of Columbia, Peru, Brazil, Indonesia, etc.
This is complete FUD (Score:4, Informative)
Obviously this person does not know what he's talking about. The world outside the US is not as frightening as some people want to make it sound. Warzones, of course, are a different matter.
Re:This is complete FUD (Score:5, Informative)
When I was younger (77-82) I lived in Panama, then Colombia. Panama had the Canal Zone back then and that was completely safe. Bogota on the other hand was not. Within one month of living there, our house was burglarized (while we were out for lunch) and had thousands of dollars of jewelry, cameras, and electronics taken. Oh, and a loaded 9mm.
After that the embassy posted a 24hr armed guard on my doorstep. For every day of the next two years I had some guy in a uniform with a
About 6 months later (and a few hundred miles away) we had our van broken into and more stuff taken including *another* pistol.
Most of the vehicles that the Embassy used or loaned out there had bullet-proof inserts behind the windows. Most of the moderate to high ranked Colombian officials had similar vehicles as well.
I'd still like to go back and visit again someday, but would feel rather leery staying more than say a week or so. Iraq may be worse for more personal attacks, but Central America is still pretty high risk in several of the countries. But there are many that are probably fairly safe.. I just haven't kept track of which lately. For the latest, you should check out the travel warnings [state.gov] put out by the US Department of State...
Consider carefully (Score:5, Insightful)
I found Afghanistan pretty likeable, but it would be a hard place to live for an extended period. Outside of Kabul it gets very primitive very quickly. Additionally, the security situation outside of Kabul is very much worse than it is inside.
I found Iraqis (and most people, really) to be pretty nice, hospitable people, but the situation there is just all kinds of bad. The security situation is part of it, and this keeps you indoors and in very close quarters a lot of the time, and this gets old quick. And regardless of how you feel about the current administration or the war, being an American in Iraq is a mighty uncomfortable thing to be in 2004.
I presume the people paying big money for these services are military or military contractors. In both Afghanistan and Iraq, these guys live in shipping containers, often in the middle of nowhere. In the Green Zone, shipping containers are stacked everywhere and people are shoved into any space that will fit them. Many people --civilian contractors -- share their bunks in shifts.
If you are really considering this just for the money, I would think very carefully about what you are doing. How much is money really worth? Because especially in Iraq, you will be exposing yourself to physical danger and psychic stress that is considerable.
And if you are going for a travel experience, I can support that, but I would suggest that in a military environment you are unlikely to get much of a cultural experience. There are other, better ways to do this.
If you really believe in what you would be doing (as I did), then go, but do keep an open mind and remain observant and inquisitive; regardless of your position now, you will find things are quite different from how you thought they were.
Re:Consider carefully (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently Halliburton's financial staff in Kuwait are staying in the five star Kempinski Julai'a Hotel and Resort. The tab is $10,000 a night. A 100 people apparently ran up a one million dollar bill in 3 months. The Army tried to move them to tents but they refused.
Some other examples apparently from ex employees and whistleblowers:
"Abandoned $85,000 trucks because of flat tires and minor problems."
"Paid $100 to have a 15-pound bag of laundry cleaned as part of a million-dollar laundry contract in peaceful Kuwait. The price for cleaning the same amount of laundry in war-torn Iraq was $28."
"Spent $1.50 a can to buy 37,200 cans of soda in Kuwait, about 24 times higher than the contract price."
I like the truck story the best. If true it appears the Iraqi insurgents can decimate the U.S. supply lines by throwing sharpened jacks in the road in front of Halliburton's convoys. Once the trucks are abandoned they are most probably looted, stolen or burned.
War profiteering is always ugly and if you go in to one of these war zones as a contractor that is basically what you are.
The problem with war profiteers is that when you have companies like Halliburton and its subsidary Kellog Brown and Root(KBR) who make a fortune off wars they have strong motivations to encourage and promote wars. KBR has been profiting off war since at least Vietnam when it was Brown and Root. I see another post that indicates they are doing the same thing in the Balkans.
It really disturbing when you have a Secretary of Defense, Dick Cheney, who rewrites all the Pentagon's rules and moves half the jobs formerly done by soldiers, like driving trucks and cooking, to contractors so KBR can an even better profit since the Army is now totally dependent on them. Cheney, as his reward gets a cushy job as Halliburton/KBR's CEO where he cashes in on his generosity as Secretary of Defense. He then returns to government as VP where he was the #1 cheerleader for a war waged under false pretenses where his old company is raking in billions in sole source contracts. Cheney denies he arranged the contracts. Well he didn't have to. KBR always gets all the Army's war zone logistics contracts and have for a long time.
Another disturbing example is Blackwater. Blackwater consists mostly of ex green berets, rangers, seals and delta force. Uncle Sam spends a fortune to train them. At the first opportunity they get out and join Blackwater where they make 6 figure salaries. They are mercenaries, plain and simple. The mercenary army is the single largest army in Iraq, after the U.S. and larger than the British contingent. The four mercenaries killed in Fallujah that started the month long war there were from Blackwater (Blackwater being the term for SEALS attacking from the water at night).
War profiteering really and truly stinks. It helps propel nations in to wars, for bad reasons, that get a lot of people killed.
Re:Your math is plain wrong (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Consider carefully (Score:3, Insightful)
Waxman is a pretty tireless crusader against fraud, waste and abuse all over the government, its not like he is out to just get Halliburton. If you are a taxpayer you owe him a small debt of gratitude those his efforts are alm
Re:Consider carefully (Score:3, Funny)
I was there, will never go back (Score:5, Interesting)
Scale Of Hazard, YMMV... (Score:5, Informative)
Afghanistan: The Kabul/Bagram area are relatively safe. Occasional bombings and shootings sound worse in the media than is perceived locally. Locals don't see you as a target. Resist the temptation to see the rest of the country, and you'll be fine. Heroin use among foreign rear echelon motherfuckers is 'way up... do avoid that.
Kuwait: basically safe, but events in Iraq and SA will continue increase tensions. Do as you would in most poor nations (which Kuwait is not) and try not to stand out. Do a year or two and call it a day.
Bahrain: more of a disconnect between rulers and ruled than Kuwait. Looks good compared to SA, Iraq, Afghan.
Qatar & UAE: Looks good. Act conservatively, as has been the case in the Gulf all along. If SA goes down the shitter, there will be spill over, but at least you'll have plenty of warning.
Saudi: things are going to get worse before they get better. Do not take your family, as you'll be forced to live in a foreign compound. If at all posible, live in well off but Arab-heavy apartment complexes or developments. Make a habit of varying your routine outside of the office. Have in mind an alternate exit from said office.
Iraq: If you're lucky enough to work AND live strictly within the occupation authority's green zone in downtown Baghdad, knock yourself out. Keep in mind that that zone will be shrinking considerably over the next 12 months into a still huge US Embassy, so make sure you don't get stuck outside with a housing allowance and a pat on the back. For the less risk adverse, 24x7 at one of the bigger military bases is a consideration. Next down the list is Metro Basra as long as the Badr (as opposed to Sadr) militia and it's political front stay happy. Ditto with the Kurdish areas, which aren't much worse than eastern Turkey. Pass on Mosul, Kirkuk, and the whole rest of the country. If you're going to be driving anywhere, for God's sake opt for small, cheap sedans. Big sedans are begging to be car jacked, and SUVs broadcast "USA" like a HUMMV.
Iran: I throw this in for contrast. If a US citizen/resident alien, your biggest problem will be explaining yourself to Uncle Sam. Consult with an attorney to make darn sure you aren't in conflict with US economic restrictions on trade with Iran before you go. Don't hit on local women, bad mouth Islam or the government, or take pictures of any thing that even resembles a government or military installation. In fact, this is more of a normal overseas posting, so it's not nearly as lucrative. There are some up to date tourist guide books on the country, and good poop from the British and Australian Embassy web sites.
Re:Scale Of Hazard, YMMV... (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm an Australian who lived in Iran from March 2002 to October 2003. I don't think I was ever in any physical danger - I don't see why it would rate hazard pay now. I mean, people, we're talking about the third biggest country on orkut, [orkut.com] where women post pictures of themselves without hijab and everyone lists their drinking frequency. Many Westerners have strange misimpressions about the place, and the Western media typically emphasise only aspects that stand out, not everyday life. Because of this, I have to come to believe and tell others that the only way to understand Iran is to visit personally.
Been there! By all means go! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Been there! By all means go! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Been there! By all means go! (Score:3, Interesting)
Money for Nothing (Score:3, Interesting)
I think that most of the people who do these kind of "offshore ventures" are not doing it just for the money. There are a lot of other valuable things you can receive from a job besides money.
Statistically speaking, I think you have a better chance of getting killed in America through one of our favorites (heart disease, automobile, gunshot) then you do getting beheaded in the Middle East. However, if you are killed in the Middle East you will probably enable your loved ones a brighter future through public sympathy donations and potential gigs on television.
But the people who do this kind of work are doing it because they are trying to make a difference in the world and they believe that they are on the side of GOOD.
If you do this, do it not because of your wallet, but because of your conscience. Think who you might become as the result of this experience.
Re:Only one way... (Score:5, Informative)
Whether you think the war is right or not, he is there and feels like he is "serving his country." This is not your average yahoo.
Anyway, he sums it up like this. 60% of the people want us there, 20 percent don't care and would like us to get out as soon as we can and the reamaining 20% are completely insane and un/miseducated fanatics.
If you're interested in reading his blog, he is at
http://www.missick.com
Enlightening reads whether you agree with his views or not.
Hope you find this worthwhile.
Re:Only one way... (Score:3, Interesting)
And the methodology for his study is what? And he defines "fanatic" how? No disrespect meant to your friend there, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data." Back here on earth, more credible studies [boston.com] paint a much bleaker picture of Iraqi sentiment towards the occupation.
Re:Only one way... (Score:5, Insightful)
Huh? And what precisely do the al-Quaeda fanatics have to do with Iraq?
Unless all of our western intelligence agencies have failed miserably, al-Quaeda people only began moving in Iraq as a direct result of Gulf War 2...
Re:Only one way... (Score:5, Insightful)
I fully agree that violent fanatics need to be stopped, be they Muslim suicide bombers or Christian crusaders in the guise of American patriots.
Re:Only one way... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Only one way... (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow, that could totally be rewritten as:
The American fanatics need to be stopped. They don't care about anyone but themselves. Everything they are doing is only hurting the Iraqi people.
Re:Only one way... (Score:4, Interesting)
MANY things are hurting the Iraqi people, and I don't think we should be there. That said, the US is doing a hell of a lot of good work in restoring/building infrastructure in Iraq. This is helping, NOT hurting the Iraqis...
Re:Only one way... (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps you're forgetting that these interlopers were members of the Army, an outfit which pretends to care about discipline and chain of command and responsibility. Perhaps you're forgetting that some brilliant lawyers in the White House dreamt up legal strategies in defense of torture.
It's quite difficult to argue that the efforts of
Re:My first first! (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, when you drive to your office and back you are risking your life for money... Same if you walk...
I guess that what you wanted to say was that you would not accept an average pot of money for an above-average risk to your life. But that is reasonable, this is why averages and medians often coincide in social sciences!
Paul B.
You don't read the papers much, do you? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, it's kind of hard to be kidnapped by terrorists in Saudi Arabia if you're NOT there.
But if you do go there AND you look like an American, then the chances go right up.
"Certainly not relative to any other of a number of ways you could die."
Stepped on by an elephant while having sex in Tacoma. Hmmm, statistically, that has NEVER HAPPENED.
Do you know what "relative" means?
"You can lock yourself up in your house if you want to. It just depends on how you want to live."
False dichotomy there.
Either
Lock yourself in your house
or
Go someplace where lots of people who don't like you want to kill you and can recognize you easily.
Yeah. Whatever.
"If you are really concerned about your life being out of control and in the hands of terrorists, just get fitted with one of those poison teeth. Then at least you can save yourself from suffering while you die."
So, the terrorists can kill me or I can kill myself before the terrorists kill me.
Only on
How about he get a job at a small insurance company and die from a heart attack 60 years from now brought on by too many donuts for breakfast for 60 years?
Re:Networking in the Danger Zone? (Score:4, Insightful)
Since when are there armies of muslims trying to invade our country and implement "regime change" in the US? That there is a group who want to influence US policy with terrorism is clear. But to say that there is a large enough group with the intent to force us all to Islam is absurd.
The reason for many of the terroist incidents the parent lists was to disuade the US from trying to control governments in the middle east, not to convert us to Islam. Parent doesn't seem very aware of the true reasons for those terrorist acts. For example, Osama bin Laden's main goal is to get US troops out of Saudi Arabia.