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Education Technology

Is Typing a Necessary Skill? 1065

cloudwilliam asks: "The Christian Science Monitor has an interesting article on how many schools have stopped teaching touch-typing as a necessary office skill and are now often saying that basic computer skills are more important. I'd agree with the latter, but what about typing? I learned to type on an IBM Selectric II (and still own one, as a matter of fact) in the mid-1980s, and the last time I was tested, touch-typed at around 60 wpm. Is this an obsolete skill? With handwriting and voice recognition technologies, is using a QWERTY keyboard with nine out of ten fingers something worth knowing anymore?"
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Is Typing a Necessary Skill?

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  • No (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Zebra_X ( 13249 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:18PM (#9882844)
    Better to understand how the computer works, and learn to type as you use it. I don't think that voice and other technologies are going replace the KeyBwa anytime soon though.
  • Vastly important (Score:5, Insightful)

    by PatHMV ( 701344 ) <post@patrickmartin.com> on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:20PM (#9882869) Homepage
    I had typing in the 8th grade, and it was the single most practical class I ever had in school, period. You can type so much faster when you learn properly. There's a closer connection between your thoughts and getting them down in the computer. If anything, the prevalence of computers is making typing skills MORE crucial, not less. Before e-mail and word processors, bosses had clerical staff to type. Now the boss himself has to be able to type, too. So everybody needs basic keyboarding skills.
  • by Vexler ( 127353 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:20PM (#9882873) Journal
    When I was in high school, I tested at 96 wpm using a manual typewriter. If we continue to use keyboards instead of other HIDs (such as voice recognition, optical, etc.), then other muscles would be more important than fingers.

    Perhaps having a background as an auctioneer would finally be useful for something.
  • by dildatron ( 611498 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:21PM (#9882892)
    I think ideally both should be taught. Maybe have an intro course where the first half of the class is working on typing skills, and the second part of the class is on general computer skills. Most younger people I see (junior high or high schoolers) can type, but not properly. Bad technique will never yield high speed and accuracy.
  • by JLavezzo ( 161308 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:21PM (#9882896) Homepage
    Ask adults who use compuers a lot and can't touch type if they wish they could. I hear a lot of, "Yes, I wish I could type."

    60 WPM isn't necessary. 25 would be better than hunt-and-peck.
  • by DanielMarkham ( 765899 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:21PM (#9882897) Homepage
    Last I checked, it was the QWERTY keyboard.

    Knowing how to type means knowing how to input computer information faster: whether it is programming, word processing, or slashdotting.

    For at least the next decade or so, touch-typing will be a critical skill for all information workers. That's just common sense, right?
  • by Jens_UK ( 615572 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:21PM (#9882899) Journal
    it's boring and frustrating to watch someone type slowly, especially if you are helping them.
  • Faster (Score:2, Insightful)

    by briguyd ( 802395 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:21PM (#9882901) Homepage
    I still think typing is much faster than handwriting recognition. With whatever I use (Taablet PC, PDA, etc.) you have to pause and let it enter becauseit won't fit on the screen. Typing is the easiest and fastest way to go right now and should be taught in some level of school for at least a few days a week for a semester.
  • Re:No (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:22PM (#9882931)
    I agree, for me, as my computer skills increased (and irc/chatting), typing came right along. And while I did my fair share of mario and mavis beacon classes, I never learned as much as I did just getting out and using my 386. (although I do type incorrectly, I can hit over 80 WPM)
  • by Incoherent07 ( 695470 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:25PM (#9882973)
    Well, in my case it was a 10th grade english class which involved 40 page "journals". I was, however, taught to touch type fairly early on.

    I want to know what crackpot thinks that you can be anywhere near good at what schools usually think of as "computer skills" (read: word processing, web design, Excel, Powerpoint, email, internet) without being able to type at a half-decent rate.
  • A necessary skill? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by btsdev ( 695138 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:25PM (#9882974)
    Is this an obsolete skill? With handwriting and voice recognition technologies, is using a QWERTY keyboard with nine out of ten fingers something worth knowing anymore?

    Uhh... Last I checked, it's the year 2004 and we haven't stopped using keyboards. How could typing, in the furthest stretch of the imagination, be an "obsolete skill?" Let's ask this question again in a decade from now when people might actually stop using keyboards. Unless I'm horribly misinformed, voice recognition is nowhere near popular and just about 99% of the population is still using the QWERTY layout.
  • by kraksmokr ( 216277 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:25PM (#9882981) Journal
    What kind of basic computer skills are they referring to? Using a mouse? Ok, so you can click. Can you really create anything substantial by just clicking?

    I can't think of many skills more basic than touch typing, especially since people communicate more via email and instant messaging and less in person and on the phone. I don't think voice recognition is there yet.

    Next they'll be saying that you don't need to know how to add in order to do calculus! :-) Which is technically true if you do it all with Mathematica, I guess.
  • Re:No (Score:2, Insightful)

    by doctormetal ( 62102 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:27PM (#9883002)
    Better to understand how the computer works, and learn to type as you use it. I don't think that voice and other technologies are going replace the KeyBwa anytime soon though.
    Indeed. Handwriting and voice recognition are not developped well enough to replace typing. But being able to type and being able to touch type the 10 finger way are two diffrent things to most people.

    I am a designer/developer/programmer and I cannot touch type with all 10 fingers, mostly use 4 or 5.
  • by BakaHoushi ( 786009 ) <Goss DOT Sean AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:28PM (#9883016) Homepage
    I type pretty damn fast, I'd say. I haven't had it checked in a good, long time, but I'd say 50-60 wpm sounds about right. However, I haven't actually ever taken a complete touch typing class. In fact, I use the so called "hunt and hit" method. Well, I should say, that's how I STARTED typing. However, I know where all the keys are by now. I don't have to even think about it. I use two fingers to type but there is very little time between any key stroke, and the only thing that is slowing me down is my thinking speed.

    Thus, while I don't type the "normal" way, I'd say I type almost as good as most typists, anyway. So, while I do believe it helps to know how to type in some way, shape, or form, I don't think it has to be with the standard model. Whatever way works for you.

    Also, just because I type this way doesn't mean that I use poor grammar on IMs, despite the stereotype. I'm a grammar nazi at times and my whole body cringes anytime I hear "words" like "lol" "ic" or "omfgrolflmao!!!!11111111"
  • absolutly needed (Score:1, Insightful)

    by sinnfeiner1916 ( 793749 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:28PM (#9883018) Homepage
    lest we forget that computers are meant to be tools to accomplish work, such as writing stuff. Is it important for people to understand how it works? Sure. Is it MORE important that they can leaverage the machine to produce something useful? Yes. Why? Well, most people in the world do not just want to use computers for the sake of using a computer. They don't want to call someone on the telephone and talk to them about telephones. They want to write their reports, do their research, et cetera. Of course, we all can type rather effectivly anyway (although most of us can't spell and ignore grammar), so our point of view is jaded. But the fact is that there are more secretaries than their are UNIX administrators or C programmers and they needed to know how to type quickly likes longer than 'cd /usr/src/sys/i386/'
  • by Hacksaw ( 3678 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:28PM (#9883025) Homepage Journal
    Good typing means wrists raised in order to get the most strength and endurance, needed with the old manual typewriters. This also means better blood flow, which prevents RSI, at least to some degree.

    It also means less time waiting for your hands to catch up with your mind, and so gets out of the way of the creative process.
  • by 0racle ( 667029 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:28PM (#9883027)
    Personally I only just barely passed the typing classes I had to take, it was one of the reasons I stopped taking computer courses in high school. If you use a computer day in and day out then you'll eventually fall into a routine that works, it might not be proper home-row touch typing, but it works. I also couldn't stop my self from looking at the keyboard every once and a while for a word or two as I type, I really can't help it I have this need to look at what I'm doing. Basic typing will come to you, its the driving people to 40wpm and more that I find unnesessary.
  • Expected (Score:3, Insightful)

    by FuryG3 ( 113706 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:30PM (#9883064)
    I work for a company that does IT and Heathcare training, as well as IT consulting. Certainly with the jobs that are IT related we expect someone who can type. Even on the Healthcare and non-IT-jobs, computers are so involved in our buisiness that most employees could not do their job effectively without them.

    That said, during the hiring process, the question "do you type" is probably not asked very often. It is such a key skill that it has moved beyond being a nice thing to know, to being expected if you are to ever work in any type of office setting.
  • by LordZardoz ( 155141 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:31PM (#9883087)
    Learning to type properly is a very useful skill. Using a keyboard is a very efficient way to write out your thoughts.

    The subtle benefit of knowing how to type properly is that you can actually type in complete sentences, and not come accross as being retarded in an e-mail or instant message conversation. You will still make typos and spelling mistakes (as I am sure I have in this post), but the post is in recognizable english.

    when u dont use sentences nd use lots of abbreviations but not punctuation it tends to b noticd

    END COMMUNICATION
  • by komby ( 556843 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:31PM (#9883092) Homepage
    Paint your keyboard so you can't see the keys. Worked for me!!
  • High School (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Shky ( 703024 ) <`moc.liamg' `ta' `yraeloykhs'> on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:31PM (#9883096) Homepage Journal
    I took a class last year called Applied Information Technologies that taught basic skills (spreadsheets, word processing, webdesign) as well as making us pass a touch typing test. Though he didn't really teach us typing (we were expected to learn outside the class), the ability to do it was a fundemental part of the course. So I guess it is possible to incorporate both in one course.

    That said, I found the class incredibly boring as I've been around computers for as long as I can remember (there was one in the house before I was born), so I didn't really get taught anything new. I guess that's why I was able to skip the class fairly often and still get a 97..
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:33PM (#9883128)
    Uh, clarity? Readability?

    A lot of folks see posts like yours and think (consciously or unconsciously) "sloppy typer = sloppy thinker".

  • by Zaranne ( 733967 ) <zaranne17@gmai l . c om> on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:35PM (#9883163) Homepage Journal
    I agree, it is obsolutely necessary. Just like it's necessary to learn MATH and not just how to use a calculator. Speedy typing is important for a good job, the only exception would be for coders, networkers, that kind of stuff. It's where straight forward typing is needed (letters to customers, clients, law papers, e-mails to same, etc., etc.) that it's importance becomes clear.

    And I swear I hate those IMer's who type in shorthand. That's only appropriate for phone text messages. Just what the hell is "prolly" supposed to be anyway? (I know what it stands for, it just's a rhetorical question...)
  • by Servo ( 9177 ) <dstringf@noSPam.tutanota.com> on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:36PM (#9883178) Journal
    Having the ability to type accurately at a high rate is absolutely necessary. First of all, I don't know of any employer that has computers for secretaries or other "general typing" positions that have speech recognition. Traditional typewritter courses may be obsolete, but typing on computers is not.

    Think of jobs like programming where high computer skills are obviously required. Good programming requires you to be able to input code at fast speeds and accurately so that the code runs without error. Unless you work for Slashdot, producing buggy code that took you all day to input won't get you far in the business world.
  • by aussersterne ( 212916 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:37PM (#9883191) Homepage
    Here's your reason to learn to touch-type: Speed.

    People who are good and very experienced at the index-fingers method often say "I can type 40wpm easy" (or in your case, 60wpm), as though that's incredibly fast.

    But computing professionals who touch-type can hit 110-130wpm (I get 110-120 on a good day). That's about twice as fast. When you're trying to hit a deadline, especially as a writer, it's a big deal to be able to type twice as fast, and that much closer to the speed of your thoughts, not to mention the fact that if you have to type for long periods of time, your accuracy won't suffer as much and your hands/arms won't get as tired if you touch-type, because there's less movement and fewer large muscles involved.

    There's also the matter of keystrokes, something that most people aren't as familiar with. The number of keystrokes per minute is at least as important for a hardcore computer user (keystroke tests use additional keys like ctrl, alt, shift, Fn, etc. and also test for number and punctuation skill). The ability to perform ctrl, alt, or Fn keystrokes in the midst of a stream of text typing without pausing and without having to look at the keyboard provides an additional serious speed increase in real-world computer use.

    And don't underestimate the drag of having to look at the keyboard, even a little. I can fill a spreadsheet at 110-120wpm, staring at a sheet of paper full of numbers the entire time, using tab and arrow keys for navigation, no pauses needed, just a continuous flow of keywork. I never once have to look at the screen and because I touch type, I know the minute I have made a typing error and can backspace and fix it, all without looking. I would guess that it would take you more than twice as long to enter a page full of numbers and formulae into a spreadsheet application, even if your measured typing speed is half of mine.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:39PM (#9883222)
    "I call shenanigans."

    Why? Just because you can't do it?

    I use to be a 2 finger typist for the longest time as well and could easily outpace anyone in my 8th grade typing class (cripes thats like 2 lifetimes ago).

    Yeah, lots of typos, but thats where you learn the 3 finger method -- your index finger takes over and knows to instinctively find the backspace.

    If it weren't for things such as painful arthritis in my right wrist and the fact that I got sick of not being able to type in the dark -- because this style of typing requires you to look at the keyboard quite a bit -- I would still be using this method myself. Luckily, now I can type in the dark, not worry so much about my hands because I'm using proper keyboarding methods and I can stare directy at my boss pretending to listen to him while finishing up posts like this one.

    80WPM ain't nothing...it use to mean something on standard typewritters where technique and making certain that you had a specific flow to ensure that keys didn't get jammed (well, before the uniball)...2 fingers can easily do that if you are use to it....
  • 60wpm? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Tumbleweed ( 3706 ) * on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:41PM (#9883241)
    That's not 'pretty damn fast,' that's 'good.' I type around 100-110wpm raw, which goes down to around 90-95 after errors. IBM Model M keyboards rule. :)

    I learned on an IBM Selectric (original model), with no letters on the keys. Ugh. Worked, though.
  • by Sloppy ( 14984 ) * on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:43PM (#9883271) Homepage Journal
    If you need to type a lot, then you will learn to type reasonably well, without the need of any formal instruction. Most people need to type a lot, because computers are nearly ubiquitous. Thus, most people learn to a 'good enough' level of proficiency.
    But three years ago, after watching some kids spend as long as 10 minutes searching for the letters to enter a single Google query, she decided to start formally teaching touch-typing.
    Hey, I wasn't there, but my guess is that the real problem is that the kid doesn't get to use computers very often (the 'computers are ubiquitous' assertion failed), not that he can't type. Have him Google more stuff, and he'll learn.

    I don't have anything against formal instruction, and I know that typing "right" will result in increased performance. But I'm sceptical that the amount of increase will matter much. The practical difference between 5 wpm and 40 wpm, is far greater than the practical difference between 40 wpm and 80 wpm. IMHO there are better things to spend time developing. [Agenda mode on] Teach 'em Python instead.

  • by Khomar ( 529552 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:45PM (#9883299) Journal
    its the driving people to 40wpm and more that I find unnesessary.

    I have to strongly disagree with this statement. Can you get around with less than 40 wpm? Yes, but you will be far less productive than someone who can type faster. This even applies when programming. I find that having the ability to type quickly allows me to get my thoughts into code quickly which contributes to shorter development times.

    In regards to the main post, I find it a crime to exchange a definable typing skill with a nebulous "general computer knowledge". What exactly does this mean? Which programs will they be taught to use? How in depth will this training go? Is it teaching problem solving or just making them "comfortable" with computers (as if this is a problem for kids)?

    Typing is measurable and very beneficial in life, especially in this age where computers are everywhere. Even when we get good voice recognition, having a strong typing skill will still be critical in those fields where precision of typed communication is essential (use of scientific/medical terms, programming, text formatting, etc.).

    As an aside, I see this as just another step in the downward spiral known as public education in America. They are exchanging definable, testable education in the basics (spelling, grammar, math, science, now typing) for more theoretical concepts. The problem is that children are not ready for these creative concepts until they have mastered the basics, but we skip past the basics (the multiplication table, for example) and effectively throw the kids into the deep end before they really know how to swim. It is no wonder that our education is failing our kids.

    Sorry about going into ranting mode, but the advent of "creative" spelling and "creative" math are bogus concepts that are basically creating stupid kids (politically incorrect, I know). Keep the calculators and computers out of the classroom until junior high or high school or when the students have proven that they have the basics of math and communication (written and verbal) down. Then we can start the process of expanding their horizons. It is like the old adage: learn all of the rules first and then you can break them.

  • It's Implied (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Ambiguous Coward ( 205751 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:46PM (#9883303) Homepage
    I think it's implied that students would still learn typing through basic computer use. I learned to type long before I was ever forced to take a typing class, and I learned simply by using a computer. If students are immersed in computers, they will learn the methods needed to communicate with those computers--one of those methods being typing. It's like walking. Most people don't actually take a class on walking, it's simply something you learn as a necessity.

    And of course, this is all on top of the fact that students still have to write papers and the like, which are generally typed. Again, more learning through necessity. We don't always have to *officially* teach things. Sometimes, they're learned because they must be.

    -G
  • by Nuttles ( 625038 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:48PM (#9883333)
    Heck yeah, typing is essential. I would argue that it is especially essential to any programmer or network administrator. The faster and more proficient you are at typing the faster you can get your ideas into production or solve problems. Not only typing out words, but also keyboard shortcuts in programs you use everyday will make you a better programmer/network admin. The less you reach for a mouse the faster you go and the less breaks in thought a worker will have. Also, when working with other people it is a great help. For example, if I ask a coworker to help me debug some code, typing proficiency makes the process so much easier. If you can navigate as fast as you or your fellow coworker can think there is no hindrance to your work (navigating with a keyboard is much faster than with a mouse in most cases). Bad typing skills, just slows everything down. This is costly when your work environment demands results ASAP.

    Nuttles
  • by Khomar ( 529552 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:49PM (#9883353) Journal

    I also do not see voice recognition ever replacing the keyboard. When I think about trying to do my day to day job without a keyboard, it very quickly becomes impossible (I program for a living). This is the case not just for programmers but anyone who is particular about spelling or dealing with words that are rare or easily confused (think scientific or medical terms) or when special characters are required. Voice recognition will help -- especially when dictating a slashdot post -- but there will always be a place for the keyboard. If this does ever change, it will not be for a long, long time.

    Then again, I could be wrong...

  • Let's face it (Score:5, Insightful)

    by GoClick ( 775762 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:50PM (#9883359)
    There's a limited amount of time to teach students how to do anything in school and even students who want to go into technical careers need to learn the other things. I'd certainly rather hire a developer who is proficient at mathematics than one who can type using all his fingers, let alone the two superfluous nubs we call pinkies.

    Lets say students have 2 hours a week of mandatory computing classes, It would be better spent teaching them how to learn to use a computer on their own, or how to research things, how to figure stuff out, how to have fun and otherwise get the most out of a computer so they'll want to learn more, rather than forcing them to pound on keys.

    If high speed typing is so damn important the school boards should switch to Dvorak and we all know it.

    Besides most jobs really require very little computer use, even good jobs and seldom do they require touch typing. Only typists, dictators and secretaries would truly benefit from spending hours learning that over say learning how a computer works.

    And as /.ers and people who make money from computers, shouldn't we do all we can to keep people away from them to keep our wages up?
  • by nkh ( 750837 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:51PM (#9883364) Journal
    I learned to type by myself in less than a week: put a sheet of paper on your hands (to hide the keyboard) and copy a text (like a website) to a text editor. I can do 120wpm very easily now.
  • by gooru ( 592512 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:56PM (#9883431)

    Last time I was tested, I was at around 105 wpm with 99% accuracy. That's just a byproduct of using computers day in and day out for years though, and not a result of any typing class. I gradually developed my own touch typing system, I guess.

    I believe that schools are phasing this out not because touch typing is not a necessary skill but because most of the students can already type better than the teachers. I remember taking a required typing class 11 years ago and just being bored out of my mind, because I could already type at more than 90 wpm. (This was in sixth grade.) I would finish the daily assignment in three or four mintues and then screw around with the computer the rest of the period. I'm guessing that since then, the number of kids screwing around has increased exponentially and schools finally realized the class wasn't worth teaching any more.

  • by fitten ( 521191 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @05:58PM (#9883463)
    In my job (developer/management/etc), I am constantly typing in things, but never transcribing. Touch typing helps you when transcribing, because you can't easily look at the keyboard while transcribing. In modern jobs, transcription just isn't important. So I believe that my needing to look at the keyboard when typing does not hurt me at all. SPEED matters, but even more than that it is what you enter that matters!

    Yeah... but as a touch typist, when I program, I'm not looking at the keyboard. I'm looking at what I type and the stuff around it. So instead of imagining what I want to type, then looking down at the keyboard and typing that, then looking up and thinking some more, I can literally spend all day typing without looking at the keyboard or stopping except to rest. In this mode, my ideas go from my head to the screen, while I'm absorbing whatever else information from the screen that I do while thinking.

    When my mind is completely disengaged from the mechanics of getting the characters I want on the screen (i.e. I'm not looking at the keyboard at all and am just letting my thoughts flow from my head to the screen), I can really flow.

    I guess this is where I differ from other folks. I don't necessarily like to use the mouse, and in fact, I use keyboard shortcuts a lot. To switch to the mouse, I have to disengage myself from thinking and hunt for the mouse. It's pretty astounding just how much time the mouse can take to use during the day. Of course, there are lots of things the mouse is very good at, so it speeds up lots of tasks so eventually, I think it's better to have a mouse than not. But I think the combination of using a single mode of input (keyboard) and only switching to the mouse when you'd really save time (not while programming hardly ever) is more productive (at least for me).

    I think the folks who really thing speed matters are those who interrupt their thought processes to look down at the keyboard to type. In those cases, they have to make up for all the lost time thinking/analyzing while they are typing and jarring their thought processes so they can go back to looking and thinking about what they are doing. In those cases, speed is essential so you can burst the typing to get it out of the way. Most touch typist programmers don't need to type fast because they don't make many mistakes and they are thinking about what they are doing while they type instead of between typing microbursts.
  • by yppiz ( 574466 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @06:03PM (#9883512) Homepage
    The ability to type at all is necessary, sure, but touch-typing is not necessary unless you're a secretary. Touch typists, please read the rest before modding this as a flame - it's not.

    Consider the interaction between a person and a computer as an information processing system, analogous to a PC. In building an optimized system, one must consider the task and the likely bottlenecks. In building a gaming PC, for instance, disk speed and even CPU speed are often less important than the speed of the graphics card.

    When a person types on a computer, the bottleneck in accomplishing most tasks is not the bandwidth through the keyboard (typing speed) but the latency introduced by other elements of the system. Specifically, the speed of the user's reading comprehension and the speed of the user to make decisions and mentally transform ideas and concepts into text dominate typing IO for most tasks. The tasks where typing speed dominates, like rote transcription, involve very little need for comprehension, decision making, or complex thought - certainly much less than composing an email or a complex report.

    --Pat / zippy@cs.brandeis.edu

  • by forgetmenot ( 467513 ) <atsjewell@NospaM.gmail.com> on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @06:06PM (#9883549) Homepage
    Vastly important? How so?

    I write plenty of emails. Hell I'm writing THIS comment, and I never learned to "type". Can you read the words on this screen?

    I guess in general, it depends upon context (as most things do). For developers, typing is not important whatsoever despite being plopped down at a keyboard all day to do one's job. Being an effective software developer is about designing good software. How fast you can type code has absolutely no relation that I can possibly think of to effective coding because good code is generally code that was well though out and designed prior to "typing" the first line. Typing faster without thinking about the design just means you make design mistakes all that much sooner. Furthermore, the keystrokes in a typical program usually resembles nothing like prose, so learning to type probably doesn't help much. I'm a developer. I'm considered a very good developer. But I never learned to type. Neither have most developers I know.

    But for bosses? Ahhh... I dunno. None of my bosses could ever type and they seemed pretty effective. Don't know how they would have gotten where they were if they weren't.

    These aren't the good ol' days where bosses dictate messages to a secretary who can type as fast as the boss could speek. And furthermore, even in the good ol'days speech went to "shorthand" usually before it went to the typewriter, so I think it's debatable how important it has been for a much longer time than the current "computer" era. Certainly more so, but I wouldn't say more so. Even with secretaries, organization skills are more important than typing skills. Being good or fast is just icing on the cake and I would think it has been since the very beginning.

  • IRC #trivia (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TrevorB ( 57780 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @06:18PM (#9883681) Homepage
    There's nothing that can humble you more quickly than playing trivia on an IRC channel. Knowledge is often only about 50% of what's required. Speedy and accurate typing is just as important.

    Unfortunately capitalization is not required in these games, which is why you're probably seeing a bunch of people bragging about their 110 wpm typing skills with a complete inability to capitalize a sentence properly.
  • by Weasel Boy ( 13855 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @06:20PM (#9883699) Journal
    Shawnmchorse and all you other typing speed demons, you're fast becasue you're already plugged into the computing world; you have to type fast to keep up. The article is more about kids who are being shut out of computing because they don't have the KB skills to get in the door yet.

    I touch-type in two different systems; my SO hunts and pecks at amazing speed. Both of us are the product of using computers for over 20 years (and, probably more importantly, MUDs and IM for over 10).

    Should young kids start being introduced to basic keyboard skills in school? Absolutely! We don't need to mass-produce 60-WPM touch-typists, but we owe it to the kids to teach the skills they need to effectively use computers.
  • Re:No (Score:4, Insightful)

    by nelsonal ( 549144 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @06:21PM (#9883708) Journal
    Isn't it odd how much easier it is to always find the correct key when reaching for a shortcut than when all the fingers are in their location on home row. I can always seem to find CTRL X,C,and V without looking when I try to cut copy or paste, but interchange them frequently while typing.
  • by Altrag ( 195300 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @06:26PM (#9883753)
    This is something that has consistently annoyed me. The reason backspacing is "soooo" bad is a layover from typewriter era as best I can tell --even on a typewriter with a good working backspace, if you don't notice it before you've gone to the next line, you throw the page away.

    This of course is complete BS in a modern word processor. I frequently use not only the backspace key, but things like word-left and the end key to correct my mistakes in a fraction of the time it would take to backspace all the way back and fix it.

    A modern typing test should really do a few things:
    a) measure mistakes after the entire text is typed. Would work even better with a count-up clock and a "Done" button than with a count-down clock like typingtest has.
    b) allow you to use the full range of editing keys in , including things like autocorrect and autocomplete (even when they autocomplete something wrong). Of course this is highly impractical unless the typing test is actually built into the word processor, but thats about the only way to get accurate real-world results using that particular program.

    Until those two conditions are met, typing tests of this sort are pretty much only measuring how fast you can type on a really really fast typewriter.
  • by noitax ( 770009 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @06:39PM (#9883876)
    Anyone notice that no MS ergonomic keyboard is suitable for "home keys" typing? You are supposed to hit the "6" key with your RIGHT index finger. But the geniuses at Microsoft decided to put it on the LEFT side. And even more diappointing is that now almost all keyboard manufacturers blindly follow what MS is doing. Therefore, there are very few ergonomic keyboards suitable for "home keys" typing these days. I took quite a few typing classes when I was in school. And I'll be sure to teach my son how to type properly. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people can beat me by touch typing. But the utter lack of proper puncuation, spelling, capitalization, and even grammar from touch typing like a maniac is extremely annoying to me, and makes me doubt the intelligence or maturity level of the person typing out the gibberish. And the most valuable benefit of learning how to type correctly is that you can "feel" mistakes instead of having to shift your eyes from keyboard to keys to paper, etc. I'm not sure how valuable as a work-skill being a fast and accurate typist is now, but I was able to score some great paying gigs when I was a kid. Unfortunately, the cancelled the computer literacy class at my school, so typing was the only other "vocational" class that I could take. It's a great skill that everyone should try to learn.
  • easy answer (Score:3, Insightful)

    by LBArrettAnderson ( 655246 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @06:40PM (#9883894)
    BOTH. Teach kids how to type in 6th grade with a 1 semester course. They won't be great at it but most of them will do it correctly and they will learn from then on with experience. Once they know how to use 10 fingers (I'm including alt and stuff, so that would include using your left thumb for the left alt) they will be able to learn and develop faster speeds and accuracy without a class, but just with experience.
  • by Chasuk ( 62477 ) <chasuk@gmail.com> on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @06:47PM (#9883951)
    Do you all need to be told that RHETORICAL means that I didn't NEED an explanation?

    I understand the definition of RHETORICAL, yes. However, as I did not quote your entire remark, I included the explanation of "prolly" for those who might not have been following the thread closely.

    In other words, my intention was politeness, which you interpreted as lack of attention.
  • Re:I Beg to Differ (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ArsSineArtificio ( 150115 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @06:52PM (#9883999) Homepage
    So I specifically enrolled in a typing class just long enough to get up to about 35 wpm before stopping (and technically failing the course).

    That's a shame. If you'd stuck to the end of the course, you might be able to type 80 WPM today, which can be very useful.

  • Re:Yes (Score:4, Insightful)

    by HBPiper ( 472715 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @06:56PM (#9884044)
    I agree. But if it really came down to it, touch typing does require learning in a disciplined environment such as in a school. What passes for "Computer Skills" do not. I think most people pick up more "Computer Skills" on their own then ever do in a class. And for the money spent on computer labs in our local schools, the contents of those labs seem horribly irrelevant. IMHO, real computer skills revolve around tool making, not tool using.
  • by thrash242 ( 697169 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @06:58PM (#9884073)
    Somehow I doubt that most kids now can type *properly* very quickly. I'm sure they can type quickly with two fingers and using "2" for too or to, "u" for you, etc.

    Most of my typing experience at that age was from MUDding, playing old adventure games and programming. I could type very well when I took my required typing class also (except it was taught on typewriters, not computers). Most kids now have computer experience, but it's with "iming thir h0mies n talkn 2 chix". Games now rarely require typing even when on a PC, and most kids probably play games on consoles anyway. Being able to type like that even at 200 WPM won't help you in a job, most likely.
  • by davebarz ( 546161 ) <david.barzelay@net> on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @07:07PM (#9884156) Homepage

    I type over 100 wpm (just barely over, but over) without ever taking a typing course. How did I learn? IMs. Not everyone who uses IMs speaks in that sort of shorthand. Many, many people I know utterly disdain people who type like that, and no one I know actually encourages it.

    And, even if someone does type like you are saying they do, it is absolutely true that the skill to type quickly that way will be easily adaptable to typing with proper spelling and grammar. Typing is the skill of being able to make your hands press the letters that are in your head, and that is the same whether you spell things correctly or incorrectly. You can reasonably allege that IMs are ruining kids' spelling, but not that they are ruining their typing skills.
  • by Stoutlimb ( 143245 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @07:15PM (#9884236)
    So really, it wasn't the Dvorak keyboard that helps you type faster. I think your typing skills increased when you learned not to look at the keyboard, and the layout of the keys is irrelevant? Was there something special with the Dvorak keyboard, or was it just the keyboard that you happened to be using when you learned not to look at the keys?
  • by yppiz ( 574466 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @07:16PM (#9884243) Homepage
    Whose post appears first, yours or mine?

    --Pat / zippy@cs.brandeis.edu

  • Spelling & Grammar (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Macgrrl ( 762836 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @08:39PM (#9884950)

    I don't care if they get taught how to type, provided they get taught how to spell and the correct use of grammar.

  • by FrenZon ( 65408 ) * on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @08:52PM (#9885025) Homepage
    Sure, but if people use computers enough then they sometimes develop their own methods of typing.

    Such as myself, I've used computers since I was 4, learnt touch-typing at school, then played a LOT of Quake, and did a lot of stuff that only required one hand on the keyboard. So as as result, my pinkies are dedicated entirely to Ctrl-Alt, Shift and arrow keys, with all letters handled by my remaining three fingers.

    As a result, my pinkies are noticably weaker than my other fingers, to the point where it feels really bizarre using them to push on anything

    I also hold pens and chopsticks differently to everyone else, but play the piano normally. Details I'm sure you were all DYING to hear.

  • by bfields ( 66644 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @09:46PM (#9885341) Homepage
    The reason backspacing is "soooo" bad is a layover from typewriter era as best I can tell --even on a typewriter with a good working backspace, if you don't notice it before you've gone to the next line, you throw the page away.

    This of course is complete BS in a modern word processor.

    I suppose that makes sense; though for the purposes of teaching typing, insisting on high accuracy may still be useful; in practice a student that types more slowly, but with 100% accuracy, is going to be the better typist in the long run than one that types a little faster and uses the backspace key occasionally--my experience with these kinds of physical skills is that speeding up is easy, once you know how to do something with complete accuracy, but unlearning mistakes can be very hard. So both students will eventually reach a high speed, but the originally faster one may never unlearn their habit of missing "p"'s (or whatever).

  • by FFFish ( 7567 ) on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @09:51PM (#9885372) Homepage
    Ever read a teenie's MSN chatter? Good christ, what a frightful and discouraging lack of writing skills. Spelling? Abysmal. Grammar? None. Coherent thoughts? As if!

    Typing quickly is the least of their problems.
  • by Shant3030 ( 414048 ) * on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @11:15PM (#9885779)
    I say it time and time again...

    The only class that I ever learned anything from, and still use the skills from, is my high school typing class.

  • by yagu ( 721525 ) <{yayagu} {at} {gmail.com}> on Wednesday August 04, 2004 @11:55PM (#9885953) Journal

    I used to hunt and peck type... and a peer used to scream at me and sometimes eject me from my seat and assume the typing responsibility, even though he was the manager, and I was the coder! I used to deeply resent his brusque behavior, but realized (I highly respected this man) I was slowing HIM down.

    If you don't touch type, and you work in a group, or on a team, your slow typing does more than slow you down. It slows your entire team down! This is a skill so easy to learn it is almost disrespectful to those with whom you work to not learn it.

    Touch typing is one of the most valuable skills I recommend to people. Heck, it doesn't have to be anything formal, just suck it up for a week, and refuse to enter ANYTHING on the keyboard without doing it by touch. (For the record, this is how I learned..., and I drove people around me absolutely mad for that week..., but to this day, I get compliments on my typing speed. (Especially handy for editors like "vi"))

  • Re:wow (Score:3, Insightful)

    by default luser ( 529332 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @12:47AM (#9886151) Journal
    I'm willing to bet it took you longer to consider that post, AND longer to think of how to put it so succinctly, than it ever took you to type it.

    That is my point. Unless you are transcribing or taking dictation, typing is only a small part of composition time. It is not so important a skill that you must master 100wpm simply to survive.

    And as for my "measured" speed, I imagine it's higher than that, but the last time I could be bothered to test myself (years ago), it was around 40-50 wpm.

    If you want some measure of my speed, this entire post took me about a minute to type. Zero errors.
  • by DunbarTheInept ( 764 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @01:36AM (#9886305) Homepage
    Next time try reading more than just the first sentence. The poster explained this already. It takes longer to eyeball the word letter by letter to check its spelling than it does to just recognize what word it is and have the typist's own memory spit out the spelling of it through his fingers.
  • by RMH101 ( 636144 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @04:49AM (#9886955)
    the point is that you can read a doc and type at the same time: i.e. you can find the keys on the keyboard by feel without having to look at them. if you're typing up what's in your head, this isn't particularly necessary, but if you're transcribing or commenting a doc, it's very useful indeed; the cognitive overhead from looking down at the keys, and looking up at another screen/piece of paper with all attendant refocussing etc is quite high.
  • by maxwell demon ( 590494 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @05:10AM (#9887016) Journal
    Even with meaningful texts, the WPM rate can differ strongly on the text.

    First, you'll be faster typing "I do not know too much about this." than "My knowledge of this subject is completely nonexistant.", despite of both sentences having 8 words each. (Of course, in German you can make much more biased tests: "Der Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän verzweifelte an seinem Einkommensteuerformular." vs. "Der Hund lag in seiner Hütte." - 6 words each)

    Second, your typing speed will depend very much on your knowledge of the text/words. Unless you're a physicist, you'll probably take more time typing "Using the stationary phase approximation, the Greens function can be written as follows" than "Using the next highway exit, your destination can be reached as follows" (I mean, in addition to the different length).

    BTW, is there anywhere a programmer's typing test (i.e. typing in some code, say a C function, instead of English text)? After all, I can imagine that touch typing is much less an advantage if a lot of the characters you type aren't letters.
  • by LibrePensador ( 668335 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @05:22AM (#9887051) Journal
    I am surprised that no one has mentioned the existence of the wonderful ktouch program, which is part of the kedu suite.

    If you want to learn to type or improve your typing, give it a go. I am using it at a community center and have had great success with it.
  • Still important (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Avatar8 ( 748465 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @10:28AM (#9888659)
    Typing is still an important job skill because it relates to how fast someone can do their job and as we all know, time is money.

    If you TOUCH a computer in your job, then it's 98% likely that you have to type. I don't know too many jobs that only require a person to point and click. Not only is it important in word processing, but also in accounting, creating presentations, database entry, programming and using e-mail. Voice recognition has a long way to go to match normal speech speed, whereas a good typist can type as fast as most people speak and be more accurate.

    Personally, I think the typing should be learned as early as possible. A child should be exposed to a computer and learn the basic workings of it, but once they learn to type it opens the door to endless possibilities since the limitation of clicking is taken away. My children starting using a computer when they were 2 1/2 to 3 years old. They're quite proficient with the mouse now. As my elder child enters first grade this year, I'm certain it's time to introduce her to the keyboard.

    As for me, I learned to touch type in 9th grade on an IBM selectric. I only attended half a year due to a "health class" requirement, but I reached 80-85wpm with 100%. Just took one of the free online tests (thanks for that), and it puts me at 72wpm with 98% accuracy. I type constantly all day: e-mails, documentation, purchase orders, cmd line. I don't even use UNIX that often. Ask a UNIX person how important typing is.

    Still an important skill IMO.

  • by syukton ( 256348 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @10:53AM (#9888921)
    I never took a proper typing class but I can exceed 90 WPM with my own personal typing style. Much like having accented speech or walking with an unusual gait, I have a particular typing style. It isn't touch typing so much as "knowing where the keys are" and "knowing where my fingers are" ... it can be problematic on ergonomic keyboards, but otherwise all is well.

    I picked up on typing in chatrooms.

    Find a chatroom on a topic you enjoy so you're forced to engage in conversation. When typing is the only way to get the satisfaction you're after, you'll find yourself a far better typist as time goes on.

    The point is: typing is something you can learn as you go, while basic computer knowledge (the ON button, the difference between a Macintosh and a PC, etc) provides a much better foundation for computer usage. The computer is just a tool--do you want to know how it works so that you can adapt it to your needs, or do you want to only know how to do certain specific things with it so that it is otherwise completely useless? I think that if there were a stronger base of computer users who had this general knowledge, people would be less apprehensive with regard to technology, because more people would have a brother or a cousin or an uncle who had the basic know-how and could make those that lacked even the basics feel comfortable.
  • by Roadmaster ( 96317 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @11:09AM (#9889112) Homepage Journal
    Not viable technologies yet. Few people can handwrite faster than they can type and even if they did, recognition software is far from perfect. Don't get me started on voice recognition, probably the single most useless technology I've used in the last 10 years and it keeps appearing!

    typing won't be obsolete any time now. I learned as a hunt-and-pecker, due to 20 years of practice I pretty much can touch-type now and I'm quite slow let me tell you, at 40 wpm. But it gets me by faster than any handwriter or voice recognizer.
  • by jusdisgi ( 617863 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @11:25PM (#9896406)

    Well, your sig explains why you think education is in a downward spiral...you think everything is.

    Anyway, I'll agree that I think it's ridiculous to not teach touch-typing, and that your arguments for that are well done. But I will disagree with tremendous strength this notion that public education has been getting steadily worse.

    Why? Because there is simply no actual evidence to support it. Lots and lots of downward-spiralers like yourself have spewed this fud over and over again (the earliest American quote of this type I've personally read was from 1807, a scant 20 years after the first public schools here), but no real scientific analysis has ever come to that conclusion. I researched this pretty heavily a few years back for a psych paper, and found that the only reasonable long term studies had found exactly the opposite...that we're getting smarter.

    That said, those results were too slim to be conclusive, and relied on at least a logical two-step. Specifically, the studies (one in Europe and an unrelated one in the US) both looked at the calibration testing done on new IQ tests. For the unfamiliar, IQ tests are rewritten every few years, and when they are, the testers need to re-normalize them so that 100 will still be average. They do this by giving a whole bunch of people the test, and setting the scoring accordingly. However, just for good measure, once they normalize the new test, they give both the new and old to some subjects. What both the US and European studies showed was that every single time the tests have been changed, the subjects that took both did worse on the newer version. What's this mean? Well, the tests are getting harder every time...and 100 is still average, which (albeit inconclusively) means we're getting smarter.

    Anyway, I said it was inconclusive, but in the absence of a single shred of evidence to the contrary, I'll take it. And that said, I'm not out telling everybody our education system is unbeatable...I just know enough not to sit around bitching about how the whole world is going to hell when I haven't got any evidence that it's so.

The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh

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