Thin Client Solutions For Libraries?

phatlipmojo writes "I'm a librarian in the process of opening a brand new small public library from the ground up (literally; we don't even have a building yet). The library director and I are considering our options for public computing terminals. Having experienced the frustration of dealing with Dell machines running Windows XP on a daily basis, we're trying to consider other options, and we've been talking about maybe using thin clients. Have any of you used or worked in a library (or similar environment) that uses thin client stations for public computing? What are your impressions? What are the perks and what are the drawbacks?"

"I'm hoping that using thin clients could save us daily time troubleshooting bluescreens^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H computer glitches, allow us a greater degree of uniformity on the public terminals, save us the trouble and expense of putting Anti-virus software, Fortres, and Deep Freeze (or other such utilities) on each machine, and make our machines more difficult for black hat types to mess up on purpose. I'm also hoping we'll be able to offer web access (IE and Mozilla, hopefully. IE at a minimum), Word, Excel, and Powerpoint. And have floppy drives. Plus, it would really comfort me not to pump several hundred dollars per machine into a monopolist's coffers for an OS we're just going to debilitate anyway.

We're in the odd (for a public library) position of money not really being a significant factor in the decision. So, for those thin-client-lovers among you if cost weren't a factor, would you still prefer them to full-fledged PCs?

The other factor here is the tech skills required, because our IT department is me. As librarians go, I'm pretty tech-savvy, but as Slashdotters go, I'm pretty much a luser. So homebrew Linux solutions are really out (plus, vendor support is important for selling ideas like this to the municipal government), but systems requiring basic-to-intermediate networking and troubleshooting skills are in, and I'm not afraid of non-Windows OSes."

Not a luser!

[Hanzie]

..I'm pretty much a luser...

Mmmmm. That word 'luser'. I don't think it means what you think it means....

You're a public librarian. Thank god for you and your kind.

hanzie.

linux..

[DZign]

Some people already referenced to distros you can use.. so I don't have to do that anymore.

But as I have some personal experience with this here's my post :-)

Back in the day when I was studying at university a friend and I both worked a few hours a week in the uni library. They had the same problems you're describing, only on win95 then..
The computers available could be used to surf and telnet to the library system to search books.
Almost every week windows had to be re-installed,
usually because someone messed up some settings, or there was a virus on it, .. (thank god spyware didn't exist back then, I don't want to imagine how bad it would be now :-))

In the end we just installed linux. The login screen clearly said 'log in as 'guest' with password 'guest' and would then boot X with 2 nice large icons: Netscape and a telnet window to the library catalog. Nothing else was possible.

For the next 6 months the year lasted, we didn't have to do any maintenance anymore on these systems..

(bonus for us: we used it as email server too to get personal email out of the uni-system and having a box to telnet from was nice to.. hmm.. experiment a bit)

I Assume You Are Intending To Use an ILS?

[Master of Transhuman]

If so, go here [koha.org] for the Koha Integrated Library System - an open-source ILS used by several libraries in New Zealand and elsewhere.

Also go here [oss4lib.org] for the Open Source For Libraries Web site which has links to numerous open source library systems and tools. Including a story on how Arizona State University West moved entirely to Linux as the underlying OS for their library.

Between those two sources, you should find plenty to check out.

How about a nice friendly Mac?

[furball]

It works.

If you've attended the Apple stores they have Macs sitting around for people to interact with and even though a good deal of the interaction is unsupervised, nothing destructive happens with the box and life is relatively good.

Re:Perhaps use Internet Cafe Software

[Anonymous Coward]

there might even be one on sourceforge

OpenKiosk [sourceforge.net]

Quotes from the webpage:
"OpenKiosk is an open-source multi-platform kiosk system designed for use in libraries, ..."
"With this delivery, OpenKiosk 1.0 is finally drawing to its completion..."

eMacs

[panurge]

If you have the room. Their downsides (very heavy single box solution) become virtues when the general public is concerned. They are hard to move, hard to steal, and - this is very important - can withstand abuse like an LCD can't. The keyboards are robust, you canuse ordinary cheap USB mice, the screen is bright and clear.
The design, with all the vents at the back, makes it hard for kids to try dropping paperclips and so on inside.

The only thing missing is the floppy drive, and I'd question whether that really is "missing". There are several workrounds if someone really needs floppy access.

SunRays are a good idea in more controlled environments but, at the end of the day, you still need physical terminals for the users. Terminals designed for use in uncontrolled environments tend to be expensive and not particularly state of the art as far as display type goes. I still think that most people still underestimate how well the eMac is designed for its environment.

requirements are contradictory and a bit confusing

[Vellmont]

I'm also hoping we'll be able to offer web access (IE and Mozilla, hopefully. IE at a minimum), Word, Excel, and Powerpoint....

it would really comfort me not to pump several hundred dollars per machine into a monopolist's coffers for an OS we're just going to debilitate anyway


So you don't want Windows, but you want IE, Word, Excel and Powerpoint? I think MacOS has the office programs, but unless you want to run the ancient IE5, you're SOL.

I'd personally try to push you away from supporting a lot of apps outside of just plain-jane internet access. Supporting the apps is going to be a pain in the ass, and people are going to be taking up lots of time writing term papers, etc when others just want to check their email.

I really think you need to step back and look at what you really _need_ the system to do. From the details you've provided it doesn't seem like you really have a good grasp about what you want to provide, what your maintenance requirements are, etc.

Thin client is a nice buzz-word, but it doesn't have a huge amount of meaning. Does each client have a HD, or only minimal boot-roms? What about if the central server goes down, any thin-client won't be able to restart.

Hire someone that actually can help you with these problems and analyze the requirements, do research, etc. Slashdot can provide you with very raw information, but it really sounds like you need someone with more tech experience to analyze your situation.

Re:How about a nice friendly Mac?

[IamTheRealMike]

Um, the guy said that "IE was a minimum", that's IE for Windows not for MacOS - they are totally different and IE for Mac can't render all the pages IE for Windows can.

Let's assume the poster is serious about their requirements. If you're just going to ignore hard customer specifications like "must run IE" then feel free to post but it will be ignored by the people actually doing the work (ie, them).

If you read the whole post it seems the only two systems that'd do what (s)he needs are:

1) Windows Terminal Services

2) Some form of Linux/LTSP with a copy of Wine/CrossOver Office Server edition to run IE and MS Office. CodeWeavers sell a version of Wine specifically kitted out to run thin clients, because it's massively more efficient than Citrix/RDP-type solutions.

It rules out anything based on "pure" open source because of the IE/MSOffice requirement, probably anything Linux based is ruled out on the grounds of staff availability and familiarity, and I'm afraid Mac is definitely ruled out. Sorry.

It rules out anything

[guet]

And why would IE for Windows be necessary (or even desirable)?

If a standards compliant browser (Firefox, Opera, Safari, IE for mac, IE for Windows (almost)) can't browse your web pages, you have a problem with the web pages, not with the browser.

Perhaps it's time to step back and question those assumptions, after all, they're not even at the building/buying stage. Choosing IE for Windows is basically choosing windows, which as you point out, makes the question almost a non-question - they may as well go back to continual problems trying to keep the systems up, up to date and hardened, which is precisely what the poster wanted to avoid.

Re:Sun Rays

[Upphew]

One word: Support. I'm not sure what kind of support Dell offers for thin Linux clients, but I'm quite sure that Sun has better support and much more experience on thin clients.

Re:requirements are contradictory and a bit confus

[richardljohnson]

I am a Network Administrator for a medium size city Library. We currently use Dell's with XP and all the 'bell's and whistle'...including the essential Deep Freeze. I am looking at Terminal Services with either Linux or MS. Wyse Technologies (formally Netier) does offer thin clients and if I remember right they can offer terminal service through these. From my experience Linux IS morse secure but you will have a greater learning curve if not phobia from patrons..and staff alike! Good Luck! Richard-

Re:Not a luser!

[WIAKywbfatw]

She? Who said that phatlipmojo was a she? Not all librarians are women, you know.

Looks like we could do with losing the stereotypes about librarians as well as the stereotypes about CS students.

Re:XP embedded.

[jimmy_dean]

We've deployed HP thin clients at work here using XPe and I must say that though in general it works fine, there are some big gotchas. Not every driver for a given peripheral works with XPe. Many times its impossible to get a device going at all. This is because XPe is a special version of Windows. Whereas with Linux on an embedded device such as a thin client, it's the same old Linux using the same old drivers. Of course the guy should be congratulated for wanting to use Linux. Anybody using anything other than Microsoft's OSes should always be congratulated.

Re:Not a luser!

[pomakis]

he? Who said that phatlipmojo was a she? Not all librarians are women, you know.

Wouldn't the use of "he" be just as presumptuous? The English language has flaws, and this is one of them. Since English has no third-person-singular gender-unspecific pronouns, speakers and writers of the english language have only six choices when referring to somebody whose gender isn't known:

• Use "he/she". This can get very awkward (especially when spoken). E.g.: "Someone across the street bought a newspaper, and then he/she put it over his/her head so that he/she wouldn't get his/her hair wet."
• Use "they". This is technically wrong because it's a plural pronoun, so in can lead to ambiguity and confusion. However, it's becoming increasingly common. E.g.: "Someone across the street bought a newspaper, and then they put it over their head so that they wouldn't get their hair wet."
• Use new gender-unspecific pronouns and hope that they'll be understood and catch on. E.g.: "Someone across the street bought a newspaper, and then ey put it over eir head so that ey wouldn't get eir hair wet.". See http://www.aetherlumina.com/gnp/ [aetherlumina.com] for more information on such pronouns.
• Always assume male. This was common and correct practice in bygone days, but I don't think it's reasonable nowadays.
• Guess at a gender. This is a variation of the previous point, and is not only more fair, but more likely to be correct. In this case, the person in question is a librarian, and there are more female librarians than male librarians, so why not initially guess "she" rather than "he"? It's more likely to be correct.
• Avoid the use of pronouns altogether. I think that this option is entirely unreasonable. E.g.: "Someone across the street bought a newspaper, and then that person put it over that person's head so that that person wouldn't get that person's hair wet."

Re:Not a luser!

[WIAKywbfatw]

Assuming the male form is arguably more scientific than guessing, which is what you seem to suggest should be done. Yes, it's what's historically been done and that's exactly why if you're not sure of someone's gender or want to make a general case using "he" is better than using "she". (Of course, using "he or she" or "s/he" is an alternative, but as you've pointed out it can become unwieldy.)

(By the way, why is guessing that the librarian in question is a woman right? You could argue that the librarian in question is also a technically-capable Slashdot reader, and that stacks the odds in favour of that person being a man rather than a woman.)

When you use "she" you're giving readers little doubt that you're referring specifically to a woman. But when you use "he" readers are more likely to appreciate that you mean "he or she".

To give an example, if I were to say "mankind has reached for the stars", you know that I'm referring to men and women. But if I was to say "womankind has reached for the stars" then that's a totally different meaning.

Yes, this is a grey area of language. Yes, it's all about personal interpretation and preferences. But momentum is on the side of "he", in this case and in general.