Thin Client Solutions For Libraries? 502
phatlipmojo writes "I'm a librarian in the process of opening a brand new small public library from the ground up (literally; we don't even have a building yet). The library director and I are considering our options for public computing terminals. Having experienced the frustration of dealing with Dell machines running Windows XP on a daily basis, we're trying to consider other options, and we've been talking about maybe using thin clients. Have any of you used or worked in a library (or similar environment) that uses thin client stations for public computing? What are your impressions? What are the perks and what are the drawbacks?"
"I'm hoping that using thin clients could save us daily time troubleshooting bluescreens^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H computer glitches, allow us a greater degree of uniformity on the public terminals, save us the trouble and expense of putting Anti-virus software, Fortres, and Deep Freeze (or other such utilities) on each machine, and make our machines more difficult for black hat types to mess up on purpose. I'm also hoping we'll be able to offer web access (IE and Mozilla, hopefully. IE at a minimum), Word, Excel, and Powerpoint. And have floppy drives. Plus, it would really comfort me not to pump several hundred dollars per machine into a monopolist's coffers for an OS we're just going to debilitate anyway.We're in the odd (for a public library) position of money not really being a significant factor in the decision. So, for those thin-client-lovers among you if cost weren't a factor, would you still prefer them to full-fledged PCs?
The other factor here is the tech skills required, because our IT department is me. As librarians go, I'm pretty tech-savvy, but as Slashdotters go, I'm pretty much a luser. So homebrew Linux solutions are really out (plus, vendor support is important for selling ideas like this to the municipal government), but systems requiring basic-to-intermediate networking and troubleshooting skills are in, and I'm not afraid of non-Windows OSes."
Perhaps use Internet Cafe Software (Score:3, Interesting)
Sounds like a great project, good luck!
Personally... (Score:4, Interesting)
That's got everything you need on it - it's a full, live-on-CD version of Linux, and it's completely free. Boot off it, glue the CD-drives shut, and you're good. You'd need small hard drives for it, naturally, and quite a bit of memory (~512MB should do fine), but that'd do _very_ nicely for a workstation - KDE, OpenOffice, Mozilla, and a bunch of other things that make a workstation a workstation.
IE requirement? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm also hoping we'll be able to offer web access (IE and Mozilla, hopefully. IE at a minimum)
How much would the administration be willing to budge on the IE requirement?
ComputerBank have done this in an Aus Library (Score:4, Interesting)
Done for virtually no money- and plenty of the users prefer the interface to the more complicated windows systems running along side it!
Read their white paper [computerbank.org.au] and (if in Melbourne) go down to the Footscray Library (56 Paisley St, Footscray) and check it out!
Re:thin client impressions (Score:3, Interesting)
Renember when we used to call thin clients "dumb terminals"?
Then they seemed to be uncool.
Now they call them "smart displays". Still uncool mostly.
Tarantella (Score:3, Interesting)
I have to connections to Tarantella in any way, and I dislike Windows, but I must admit that this is a very good option.
Re:Sun Rays (Score:5, Interesting)
Dell: P4 2.8GHz, 512 memory, 20G HD (5400 rpm), 24x CD, Win 2k, Ultrasharp 19inch Flat panel that is height adjustable, standard keyboard, wheel mouse, bottom line external speakers, DVI-VGA video adapter, mouse pad, no floppy, no consumer anti-virus software, no Microsoft Office offered.
Cost: $1,797 per unit
Required Software: 40 licenses each of Norton Anti-Virus ($3,219.65) and Ghost (1,207.63), Corp Editions.
Full cost: $76,307.28 for first initial order
Support: A test call to their support line prompted advertisements for spyware removal programs, antivirus programs, network hardware to up sell customers as well as the standard "Your call is important to us." The call lasted 17 minutes before giving up the test call.
Sun Thin Clients:
Configuration Details: The SUN thin clients are, effectively, modern dumb terminals. There is no local processing, everything is done on the server side. A representative would need to insert their smart card, used as a username and password, into the thin client and their session would be brought up immediately, right where they left off before. This enables "hot desking", which means a representative can get up from one terminal, walk across the building and sit down at another terminal and begin working where they left off - zero configuration. The thin client works off of a central server, called a SUN Fire, that can house anywhere from 1 to 80 clients, depending on server type and load. These are normally very fast machines that have their memory maxed out.
The Server runs the only copy of Solaris, so there is only 1 upgrade point and since it
runs Solaris, it is impervious to roughly 99.9% of the viruses that attack computers. A major benefit is that the SUN Fire server requires, roughly, one System Administrator for 2000 thin clients.
The Sun Ray 1G Thin Clients do have audio in and out jacks, giving representatives to listen to music over the network. This would require a CD collection somewhere, a network storage server dedicated to music, etc.
Cost: $359 per unit + SUN Fire server ($12,995 - $29,490) + 19 inch monitors ($1,100 each)
Required Software: None. The SUN Fire server has licenses for 20 to 40 users using Solaris with Gnome, a Windows like operating system as well as other software package like StarOffice (a Unix/Linux version of MicroSoft Office) and GAIM, a Unix/Linux version of AOL Instant Messenger.
Required Hardware: The Sun Thin Clients require a monitor. While Sun offers 19inch LCD displays for $1,100 each, the Thin Clients do support any monitor that supports Display Identification Standard (DDC) ver. 1.2 or 2.1. There is more documentation on monitor needs on Sun's website. Other 19-inch monitors that appear to support the standard are priced at $800 to $1,100. I have also noticed that the Sun Monitor appears to support higher frequency ranges (60-80Hz) vs the low end competition. This can help reduce eyestrain for those that can see monitors flickering at anything below 70Hz, such as myself. The Sun monitors also support 1920x1200 with 24 bit color (2d rendering, no 3d).
Full cost: $74,935 for first initial order
Support: A test call to their support line was greeted with a simplistic menu. After the menu prompt was picked, a "Southern type" SUN technician greeted the caller after a short wait. Total call time to live rep: 2 minutes.
Since the library isn't going to actually use them like we would, you can probably run around 60 per server since it would just be a browser and maybe a terminal window.
Basically, after spending about a week on the issue of workstations for a call center environment, we found that the Sun Ray Thin Clients came out on top and we'll be deploying them ASAP. Hope this helps.
Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:eMacs (Score:2, Interesting)
morphix derivative - (Score:3, Interesting)
Sera
15", 17" versions too (Score:5, Interesting)
The smart card is not a requirement either. You can simply log in (as guest if you like), you just don't get your hot desking. This brings the possibilty of giving regular users a real account with some space for documents as well and it keeps their settings. Guest logins are trivial to revert to "standard state" every time they are logged off too.
You don't get IE but that only disables a small amount of websites that due to their stupid reliance on IE don't deserve your custom anyway.
Not all expenses are software (Score:3, Interesting)
Sun Ray Server Software 3.0 Beta for Linux (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Sun Rays (Score:3, Interesting)
I've never known a library to use 19" monitors for anything, let alone 19" LCDs that cost 3 times more than the thin client they're attached to. In fact most I've seen use 15" or less (and I recall one library I used to frequent used 13" monochrome VAX dumb terminals, but needs have changed since then).
The fact of the matter is that we're dealing with the unwashed masses here, not uber multitaskers like call center employees or programmers.
Re:Sun Rays (Score:5, Interesting)
This seems blown up slightly -- A library (IMHO) does not need a 2.8GHz 512MB system. What are people going to do? 3D animation? raytracing? Doom III?
I think a better estimate would be a 1.4 GHz AMD Athlon XP system with 256MB RAM and the bare min for hard disk and other. The monitor you chose also inflated the price a bit. You can get decent 15" monitors these days (either LCD panel, or Trinitron CRT for more savings) for under $300.
And the software costs for the PCs are horribly inflated as well -- first of all, screw Windows. Install a basic Linux environment on them; there go your unnecessary Norton licenses. Use Gnome (or KDE), Firefox, OpenOffice, and a terminal for the Library and you're all set. If you're going to do a price comparison, at least bring the PCs up to the same level as the UNIX sunrays.
Cost per unit: about $600-$800
Hmm, significantly less. I don't know if it's just me, but it seems convenient that the sunrays beat out the PCs by only about two grand. Maybe for a call center environment you need the extra horsepower on your PCs (which is ironic, because you chose sunrays instead) but I doubt it. Aside from maintenance and support, the PCs are definately cheaper for the library.Total cost: around $30,000
Re:Personally... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:linux.. (Score:3, Interesting)
I refer to the 'it ran windows and was crap, so I installed linux and everything was fine forevermore'. Why do they keep getting modded insightful?
--
'Back in 1947, I saw the ENIAC system being deployed, but what a load of rubbish it was. It couldn't do a batch job unless you ran it overnight, needed a whole 16 k of valves to process any of its bloated hide, so one day, while the admins were off standing in a ration queue, I installed linux and KDE, and not only did no-one notice, except to say how much smoother it felt, but it made the country into the economic powerhouse we have today, and solved world hunger too.'
--
Please, somebody stop them!
Re:Tarantella (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Personally... (Score:4, Interesting)
Knoppix supports being a terminal client by a simple LILO-command. For better effect, just remaster the original Knoppix to adjust this and some locale data, and the rest would be up to the server, which can be eg. Knoppix or Debian HD-install.
It's a really fast way to setup thin-clients for sure. Of course, it's a little dirty too, and if you want NX-support, you'd probably have to do some more work. It would be worth it though and REALLY cost-effective. Imagine all you have to do to setup a new client is burn a new CD-R or quick HD-install of Knoppix (the compressed type which is identical to the CD-ROM)?
Myself, I'd find a similar project to base the work on though.
Works nicely now. (Score:3, Interesting)
With NetBoot you can add software to all machines on the fly and the new Apple Remote Desktop 2 [apple.com] has loads of features, including VNC support so you can monitor the machines from your PDA while you relax on the beach.
It's also easy to set the machines in kiosk mode where they, say, only can access a web browser - or whatever you want your visitors to use.
Re:Limux? (Score:3, Interesting)
See Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] and this site [www.home.no] for more details.
I love the English language...
Re:LTSP for Public Libraries (Score:3, Interesting)
https://listman.redhat.com/archives/k12osn/2004
All the best with your project
Re:LTSP for Public Libraries (Score:2, Interesting)
Yep, I wouldn't use any non-free OS for it, especially since your requirements are quite simple. Any decent *nix distro would be fine.
would you still prefer them to full-fledged PCs?
In a library. Yes. But try not to destroy too much of the flavour of the OS. If customers use the system they may become exposed to Unix/Linux in a favourable way. In other words, lock it down in terms of security but I would try not to lock down the functionality
as Slashdotters go, I'm pretty much a luser
If you were a 'luser', your submission post would have been rejected ; )
Re:Here's how to do it. (Score:3, Interesting)
5) rid the PCs with all moving parts (leave the fans though...)
I've found you can run anything up to a pentium 200MMX without a fan, if you have a large enough heatsink. And as the CPU cooling fan is _always_ the first component to fail in every computer I've ever put together, this is an important consideration.
Re:Someone wrote a distro.... (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.k12ltsp.org
We currently use it at work on the Tech Floor, and it runs great... I can't remember the last time I replaced a hard drive in a machine.. oh wait I haven't... cause they all run off the server =) BLAH! Nightmare when each machine ran seperately.. replace hard drives, format, etc.
Re:linux.. (Score:1, Interesting)
Spend some time with the group policy editor nitwit.
Cheap thin clients (Score:3, Interesting)
Kiosk Admin Tool in KDE 3.3 come August, and... (Score:3, Interesting)
If you want to charge for it, I've cobbled up an infrastructure based on Ruby and PostgreSQL which seems to work fine. It'll be released soon (weeks) under the name "lincaf" (GPL, natch). It will probably learn how to be coin-op within a few weeks as well.
You can actually use the Kiosk tool with any KDE from 3.2.0, and most of the setting effects from it (by hand-editing config files) from KDE 3.0. The Kiosk structure allows you to default changes back to a system config file, so you can make changes for all users (or all in a group) post facto.
What I did for lincaf was set up a template user, tell useradd to borrow that filetree, then do a pass over it with a few lines of Ruby to re-sanitise config files and the like.
100% whack-a-mole, 100% useless (Score:3, Interesting)
Using Linux,