Managing the Online Teenager?

Parenting Pains asks: "I've got two teenagers, whose peer group have 'discovered' the Internet over the course of this year. We've gone from two bright happy lively teenagers at the start of the year, to now having two people who rarely venture outdoors except under duress and are close to unbearable unless they're ensconced online with 'friends' on MSN for hours at a time. Over recent months, this has gone from mildly amusing to out of hand, with them spending up to 10-12 hours a day on weekends online with friends. Many Slashdot readers must have confronted this situation; how have you dealt with it, and what were the outcomes of what you did? Do you just let the kids stay online till they got sick of it, and how long did it take? Do you ban them from using MSN? Do you limit the number of hours they can be online?"

"When they're not online, they're grumpy, demanding, constantly nagging, etc. (i.e. normal teenagers) - frankly it's easier for us when they are online, but not for that many hours at a sitting.

We made a decision up front to trust their judgement and not monitor who they talk to and what they talk about, but I'm starting to question the wisdom of this right about now. Not for any specific reason; there's just a little nagging voice in the back of my mind telling me there's something wrong with this."

Let them spend as much time at it as they want

[TykeClone]

After they're done with their chores.

Just make sure to give them lots of chores.

Where are the computers?

[MacBrave]

Do these teens have computers in their own rooms? Is so, you should strongly think about removing them.

Only have 1-2 computers in your house with internet access and place them in 'common' areas. That way you can better monitor their online usage and curb it back.

I went thru this myself (teenager point of view)

[Anonymous Coward]

Do try to talk to them but make it clear from the beginning that its up to them.

At some point they will realize that online life is just a charade.
But they have to discover it themself, if you tell them they wont belive you.

Ask them about a girlfriend, or boyfriend. Do they have one? Do they want one? Maybe not at this point?
If they are girls the usual reaction from a father would be "Oh god, a boyfriend".
But eventually they will have one anyway, its better than staying online the whole time.

For me, beeing online was my life, I spent roughly 2 years playing EverQuest (Theres was/is? a command showing you the hours played added up). But at one point I figured out thats not life.

But as I said, THEY have to figure that out. If you combat it you'll loose ground - they will not listen to you and life will be an endless fight with them.
Its an addiction, its a way of life. You cannot talk them out of it, you can only observe it and give them help when they are ready to quit it.

Set boundries!

[cs668]

You are the parent!!

Tell them that they can have 2 hours and that is it. They are teenagers they will break that rule and then you provide a consequence.

As far as it being easier for you when they are online, tough parenting is hard work.

I do think it is great that you trust them and let them have time online to themselves, but you can, and should, still set limits.

Some ideas from a non-parent

[numbski]

I was going to say I was a teenager not so long ago myself, but I'm pushing 10 years hence now.

Anyway, this will come off a bit odd, but buy a case of Bawls, and lan party with them.

Seriously.

If they're taking an interest in online activities, my gut tells me the best thing you can do is get involved. Be active and supportive.

True, getting outside and being active is important as well (perhaps join a gym, get into a workout regimine and encourage them to join you?), but if they're going to use the computer, make sure you have a part in it.

As a side note, since teenagers seem to take some amount of joy in parental rebellion, they may actually wind up spending LESS time online, simply because you're taking an interest in their activities. :P

Just some thoughts.

Go stand in the corner young man.

[numbski]

I won't take any lip from you. Don't come out until I say so. ....

and GET OFF OF THAT COMPUTER! I have MRTG down here, and I know how to use it. I cut off your default gateway just like that!

Geeks?

[JFitzsimmons]

Are they geek teenagers or just the normal dumb ones?

If they're geeks then you're probably squashing something useful by forcing the off the computer. I know this by experience. I feel restricted by my parents who are constantly forcing me to do other things, which makes it nearly impossible to do some things I've always wanted to, like clan gaming. On the more productive side, there's nothing more annoying than a parent nagging you to get off the computer when you're in the middle of coding a serious project (debugging even more so). Adding on to that however, I have been working at an IT related job for the last 4 months and both my parents and myself have seen a significant decline in the amount of time I spend on the computer at home. Getting an IT related job might be a little tricky; I think I just got lucky.

If they aren't geeks, get them off that damn computer. Their time is much better wasted smoking up and getting hammered at some party. Maybe if they're lucky they'll have a kid before they finish high school.

It's not the time. It's the topic.

[Anonymous Coward]

You shouldn't be so concerned about the fact that they're spending so much time on the computer. You should be concerned that they're spending that time with mind-numbing chat.

I spent at least ten hours a day on the computer when I was a teenager. However, I spent it learning to program and other things that later landed me a great high-paying career.

But kids don't do this anymore. The computer and the internet have simply turned into a "chat toy" and - at best - a gaming console. The idea of putting a computer together and then learning it inside out (meaning more than just how to USE applications and surf the net) is passe. And it's sad.

this same thing happened to my brother

[viperstyx]

my younger brother went through this same phase. i agree, its VERY annoying. i have yet to figure out what the solution is, but the key is to act now!

one thought: hop on the internet with them. start showing them all the neat things on the internet where they can learn more about little projects they could replicate or even enhance at home. anything to get their minds churning. that way they get the motivation to get off their butts themselves!

also, i would encourage them to go to their friends houses to hang out, or to the mall with the friends, etc. offer to drive them. sure hanging out at the mall isnt time much better spent, but at least its a step in the right direction.

and if all else fails, may be seeing their parents using the internet so often will make them feel its not as cool as they thought it was and they'll stop ;)

How's this different from the real world?

[Chemisor]

IM is just a communication method. Would you nag them as much if they were chatting on the phone instead? Even if you had more than one phone line? Do computers bother you because you don't understand technology and are afraid of it? Would you be equally concerned if they spent ten hours a day with their friends in real life? If your concern is simply with them being physically inactive, then say it, instead of making some vague "internet is evil" complaint. When teenagers hang out in the real world they are not very active either. Think about it.

Get them outside and able to interact with people

[Pfhor]

soon.

I what you described was very similar to my own computer usage habits in my teen years. I was a social introvert, and felt like I could communicate more easily over IRC.

What i've now realized is that this very stale and limited form of communication (words pale in comparison to things such as body language, tone, eye contact) had curbed my ability to socialize with people in real life. I was not able to handle all of this information being thrown at me when I talked to someone face to face, it became overwhelming. And I became a jerk for a big part of it, what i thought would be sarcastic or witty jokes, ended up being horrible offenses against the people I was talking to, for the very fact that taken as a string of words, it wasn't much, but saying it face to face with a person, making eye contact, etc. changed its meaning.

What helped me break out of this was some serious away from computer community building experiences. I went to a non traditional boarding school (http://www.shackleton.org) that forced me to deal with people face to face. Once I was able to discover a sense of closeness with people there, being online just felt fake. There are other options too, outward bound is a good one, that will not only get your kids outside for a couple of weeks, but really push their limits and help them figure out what they are capable of.

I would also suggest limiting their internet access, and having them do outside sports, interaction with people, jobs, and physical exercise, all of which helped me through the difficult stages of puberty and figure out with a little more clarity what I wanted to do with my life.

I also suggest you take a look at "Letters at 3Am: Reports on Endarkenment" By Michael Ventura, specifically the essay "Age of endarkenment" which is an amazing piece on puberty in western cultures. Also take a look at "Shame and Pride: Affect, Sex, and the Birth of the Self" by Donald Nathanson.

And talk to your kids, tell them about your life growing up and what it was like at that time, not in a shaming way or a contrived way, but just share your experiences with what they may be going through.

I am not a shrink, or a developmental psychologist or anything of that nature, I have had to deal with my own puberty and I am currently in a stage in my life self relfecting on it and these are the things that I (and my therapist) have discovered to be helpful.

Can't Be Hands Off

[akpoff]

I understand the desire to trust their judgement but you can't be totally hands off. You should treat their online time similarly to the way you'd treat their time out with their friends. Do you hand them a key to the front door and tell them when to be home? Probably not. Get online with them...not all day but play the games they play, visit the groups they visit. The internet has as much good and bad to offer as the real world. Treat it with the same respect. One very effective option is to install software that only allows them to visit pre-approved sites. As they demonstrate the maturity and judgement to handle unfettered access then you can slowly loosen it up.

As for limiting their time that's realatively easy. The same software above can be used to limit hours of overall use, amount of time in specific programs, etc. You can give them lots of time for say using Word to write papers and less time for certain games or online activities. Also, don't forget the value of spending that off time with them (nor that of get-togethers with friends). Take them on family and one-to-one outings. Again, treat the computer the way you would any other activity -- actively manage it.

Most important to the above is to talk with your children and explain your thinking. I would not suggest going at it by parental fiat -- don't install the software one night while their sleeping. Explain to them your concerns AND your desire to spend time with them. Install it and show them how it works (not the admin part ;-).

Sullen and moody? That's in part something we as parents have to work around but it's best not to let it run unchecked. The same rapport and good relationship that allows you to spend time online with them and go on outings should help break past the bearer and find the child and attitude you'd rather have around the house.

Re:I went thru this myself (teenager point of view

[Tanktalus]

No, no, no. Your job as a parent is not to be your child's friend. Your job as a parent is to raise these children to be productive, successful, responsible adults (where "success" should not be defined solely in terms of money). THEY do not need to figure it out. YOU do. YOU need to take the responsibility to teach them responsibility - where else will they learn it from, their teenage friends who are going through the same growth process (hormones, brain still growing, etc.)?

That said, YOU also have to determine if it is actually a problem or not. Putting the computers in a public area is more than reasonable - but same goes for other activities, like TV, game consoles, etc. The bedroom should be a private place where a child can go to relax, find refuge, do homework. It shouldn't be Disneyland.

Chances are, if the computer is in a public area, 10-12 hours per weekend of online time won't be a bad thing. But YOU will be in a better position to make that judgement. And THEY will be less likely to try.

Just my 2 cents.

Cancel the Internet

[gbrandt]

This happened to my sister. Between the hours involved, and the fights to see who get on the computer, she got so pissed off she just cancelled the internet. Her family was more important than the convenience of having internet at home.

Sure, there was resentment at first, but in the cousr of a month, the whole family is back to normal.

Re:Set boundries!

[Devalia]

Bullshit, im in my first year of university and i've seen what this kind of parenting does.

The kids get free and they go wild.

Drinking, sex, net, gambling you name it. The more balanced kids tend to be those of us who had trust, broke it, learnt things the hard way, found out for ourselves, survived on fast food whilst on our own long enough to decide how to cook etc.

Re:Geeks?

[Ieshan]

I'm a (just about to graduate) college student who had a similar background- I was a computer nerd who spent lots of time online, and now "computer and hardware skills" are one of my best job skills.

If they're going to spend a lot of time on the box, *force* them to learn something new. Switch the computer to linux and make them use it to get to their IM client. Introduce them to HTML or PHP, install the stuff on your own computer and host a small webserver. Do anything to make them learn.

Computer skills are invaluable. If they're going to spend the time online, they should at least be learning something while doing it, since they certainly aren't getting any physical exercise.

By the way, I think I'm perfectly fine now. =)

Control freaks never win.

[Chemisor]

From all the responses here I see a disturbing pattern of suggestions, no: demands! to be absolutely in control of what children do. This immediately strikes me as both immoral and futile. By trying to fit your child into a specific mold you are treating him like an object. An experimental object of "let's see how much better our kids can turn out if they don't do all the bad things we used to do!" You are basically trying to remove his free will and replace it with your own; to destroy any nascent moral thoughts he may be having and to install your own. From other comments I gather that most parents appear mostly concerned with pornography ("put the computer in a public area"), which is really sad. Sure, there are wars in the world, and school shootings, and hunger and starvation, and drugs, cigarettes, alcohol, fast food; but our children's lives will surely be destroyed by a sight of a woman's body. I won't even talk about the fact that whenever I've been in some male friend's room, I always saw some porn somewhere. I won't mention that your kids can just as easily hide it where you can't find it. I won't even mention those .jpg files on my father's computer (which get automatically added to his Documents' menu :) I guess if he knew how to prevent that, he wouldn't have to ask me to remove spyware, clean viruses, troubleshoot the network; *sigh*) I'll just say that whatever it is you are trying to "protect" your kids from, they will get anyway, and probably dislike you for trying. It's not that you don't mean well, it's that you don't understand the real problem. A boy wouldn't spend so much time looking at porn if he could spend time with a girlfriend. He wouldn't do drugs if he had a purpose in life; a purpose whose emergence you have prevented by trying to cram your own down his throat. He wouldn't do drugs if he had other ways of experiencing pleasure; from learning, for instance: there's nothing like the feeling "I can do this!" "I know how!" "Wow! I finally understand!"; or from sports: "I am strong and agile!", "I am in control of my body!"; or from social interactions: "people like me.", "I am a nice person", "I like meeting people and making friends." He wouldn't smoke if he knew when to try to fit in and when not to. If he knew what kind of people he liked (as opposed to being told whom to like) and why he liked them, he would have had a much better chance of finding friends instead of throwing himself into what he perceives to be the "cool" group in a desperate, futile attempt to belong somewhere, anywhere, to just not be so painfully lonely. He wouldn't be a bully if you had allowed him to develop self-confidence, which you have quashed with every "because I said so" and every restrictive little rule you imposed upon him without explanation. He wouldn't turn to violence if he could change things he hated without it. And you know what? If you keep at trying to make him your "perfect little boy", he'll run away from you. As far as possible. Maybe he'll wait until he goes to college, gets a job, and then never speaks to you again. Maybe not. But I can tell you that you won't be close and you won't be a family.

It's normal; they'll grow out of it.

[stevejsmith]

Leave 'em alone. It seems that you're mostly concerned about the time that they spend online rather than what they're doing, which is good - they're not idiots, and the worst they can do is maybe look at porn (and in actuality, is that such a horrible thing?). If they're 13-15, chances are they will grow out of it. They're at the age where they're beginning to take social (and romantic) relationships seriously, but are a little new to it and find conversing online a lot easier. As they grow older and more independent, they'll find more real way to communicate (first phone, then in person) and will get off of the computer. It's a hard time for a kid, and easing into serious social and romantic relationships is perfectly normal, and the Internet is just perfect for that. Now, if they're older, then you have a problem. It could be that they're just developing later, or it could be that...I dunno. They're becoming obsessed? But it seems like they're younger (I can't imagine a 17-year-old's age group "just discovering" the Internet), so I think it's perfectly normal. Talk to them about safety and not giving out personal information, but beyond that, don't worry about it. Even porn is hardly detrimental - it's a fine introduction to sexuality and, quite frankly, they'll probably grow out of that, too.

Re:Chores vs. Online Time

[poena.dare]

I agonized heavily, relentlessly, endlessly, hell, I'm still agonizing about this with my 9 year old son who has taken up the EverQuest addiction just when I was able to kick the habit. *shakes fist at sky* DAMN YOU EVERQUEST!

As a result I have developed a weird mishmash of arbitrary rules and semi-biblical provisions which has served me well. OK, I'm lying, it hasn't served me well - but - it's a starting point. To wit:

On the division of FREETIME it shall be thus:

1/2 of the time shall be spent doing things that THE FATHER approves of (reading, listening to music, exercise, hobbies, artistic endeavors, worship of deity or deities approved of beforehand, etc).

1/2 of the time shall be spent doing things that THE CHILD desires (subject to state and local laws).

SATURDAY IS A FREE DAY, for no one should be made to worketh on a Saturday.

FREETIME shall be defined as the time left AFTER school work is completed and chores are accomplished.

Time spent doing otherwise prohibited activities with THE FATHER or THE MOTHER shall not count as time deducted from THE CHILD. For example, playing games of THE CONSOLE with THE FATHER or watching THE TV with THE MOTHER.

And finally, I say unto THE CHILD, LO you should be GRATEFUL that I let you playeth the GAMES VIOLENT and haveth ONLINE CHATS unsupervised for there are many parents whom do not alloweth behaviors such. DO NOT MAKETH ME REGET MINE DECISION!

Re:Some ideas from a non-parent

[jeremy_dot]

I am a teenager, roughly 17 years old. I am frequently on the computer.

I was raised on the computer. I turned the computer on by myself at age 3 and made ran a program my father had found called Mandala (effectively pretty changing colors). I have been playing video games since the late 2's. My mother and father both worked involving computers for a fair while, and thus it has worn off on me, but they have shown them to me as a choice.

I spend a good amount of time on the computer, and most of it is spent either doing work or chatting with friends. I design websites as my form of teenage employment. This has been encouraged by both of my parents, because it is something I enjoy doing and is something I can make money doing.

My point of this is as such; regardless of what your children do you should support them (to the degree of morality, do not support their use of drugs, underage drinking, etc). If a teenager feels support and respect (as in the parents do not help them) by their parents towards something, they will likely accept it (they may not rebel, but might anyway).

I have many good friends, and we frequently go out and have good times, such as driving up to New Hampshire and running into a field shooting off fireworks (which is legal there). Computers aren't my life, but they play a big part because my parents let me choose (though they introduced them to me) if and how they were to be my life. This does not just apply to computers; a friend of mine plays music not because he was encouraged by his parents from a young age, but because it was his choice to play.

Simply put, support your children and let them be individuals.

Mod parent up, support is parenting teenagers.

Be a parent for g-d's sake.

[np_bernstein]

I had the same problem with television when I was a kid - I was enraptured by it. I went from playing outside all day and staying in occasionally to staying in all day and playing outside occasionally. My dad saw that this was a problem and came to a very simple solution: No more TV. He threw out all of the TVs in the house except one, which he put in the basement (no cable reception was nill) for watching moves. This stopped my TV watching problem in its tracks. Instead, I spent much more time outside, and by the time I graduated highschool I was reading an average of a book - two books/day.

And yes, when I was young, I was pretty pissed at my dad. So, please, be a parent and don't let your kids use the computer. If the say no, throw the damn thing out the window. Leave one in the house, and switch back to dialup.

Is this slashdot?

[CAPSLOCK2000]

I'm very surprised by the responses to this question? It's very unlike Slashdot to promote this kind of totalitarian, dictatorial solutions. I'm even more surprised those kids aren't defended by the slashdot crowd. Maybe they are spending a lot of time on the computer, but they are communicating and socializing. If you tell a geek "get a life" he'l get online. For many people the internet is the best and cheapest way of being in contact with other people.
Consider all the other possible things teenagers tend to do. Hang around on the street, be part of a gang, be involved with crime and/or drugs, being drunk. None of them compare to being at home talking to other people
You should realize that a computer is a very versatile device. Spending 4 hours behind a computer doesn't mean 4 hours of the same.
Watching a movie, listening to music, talking to friends, researching an interest, playing a game and paying bills are all activities that can be done using a computer. Suggesting that they are all the same thing because all of them involve a computer is not very accurate. As a computer nerd almost all of my activities involve a computer in some way or they other. For me that's the most efficient way of working. Computers are tools, and very good tools in the hands of a professional.
If I need to fix my bike, I'll use my computer to learn how to.
If I want to go to the movies, I'll use the internet to find out what movies are playing, where, when and wheter or not there are tickets left.
If I want to contact my brother (who is travelling around the world) I'll use my computer.
If I need to pay my taxes, I'll do it using my computer.
If I want to play a game of chess, I'll use my computer.

PS I wear jeans during all the activities described above. Nobody ever told me I spend to much time in jeans. A computer is just like a pair of glasses or jeans; something I'm using most of the day to make my life a little more comfortable.

Re:How's this different from the real world?

[drsmithy]

IM is just a communication method.

Yes, but it's a "communication method" that a) lacks most (if not all) of the (very important) dynamics of "real" communication and b) encourages and reinforces bad habits.

People's "online personas" tend to be very different to their "real life personas" - generally more aggressive and arrogant. Even a relatively limited communication medium like the telephone produces a much more complex interaction due to things like pronunciation, intonation, timing, etc that - at best - are almost completely lacking from IM. This is before we get into the dynamics of face to face interaction like facial expressions and body language.

To put it more succintly, people act substantially differently in IM-style social interactions compared to more traditional methods. A lot of IMing will *not* prepare you well for - nor should be considered the equivalent of - "real" face-to-face social interaction.

Then there's the bad habits, like poor spelling and grammar, and shrinking vocabularies (I blame TV and poor English curriculums more for *causing* these, but IM *reinforces* them).

And before you go off on a rant about how I don't "get it", I grew up as a fairly heavy IRC user from ~1992 to ~2000. I make the comments above in critical hindsight, not ignorance.

Would you nag them as much if they were chatting on the phone instead?

I'd hope not - the telephone is a vastly superior "communcations method" than IM from a social perspective.

Would you be equally concerned if they spent ten hours a day with their friends in real life?

Again, IM is vastly inferior to face-to-face communcations from a social perspective.

Re:I went thru this myself (teenager point of view

[tverbeek]

As a 16 year old kid, I know how important it is to have a private place where I child can go to relax- and talk to their friends in private.

Have you tried... your friends' houses? Or inviting them over? Or meeting somewhere? That used to be a popular way for kids to talk back when the Earth's crust was still molten, in the 70s'. (You even got to see them that way.) Or if that's too retro for you, how about talking on the phone like kids did in the neolithic 80's (landline) and medieval 90's (cell)? Bottom line: you don't need a computer to relax and talk to friends away from your parents.

Who said anything about preparing?

[Chemisor]

> A lot of IMing will *not* prepare you well for -
> nor should be considered the equivalent of -
> "real" face-to-face social interaction.

Easy now. I wasn't suggesting that everyone just live in IM from birth. IM is not supposed to prepare you for anything, and neither is talking on the phone. It is about communication. Sure it is not as rich as a face-to-face meeting, but for most purposes it is perfectly adequate. People don't learn their social skills on IM just as they don't learn to swim by being dropped in the deep end of the ocean. A child does not learn social skills while using IM and I would not expect him to, but does it really matter if he is discussing some mundane subject, like whether there will be a snow day at school tomorrow, which sounds exactly the same on IM, the phone, or in person.

> people act substantially differently in IM-style social interactions

So what? I say it's a great way to see another side of your friend's personality.

> I'd hope not - the telephone is a vastly superior
> "communcations method" than IM from a social perspective.

I would disagree. The phone robs you of all the same things; you see no body language and sound quality is pretty bad, making it harder to understand the subtleties of tone and inflection. At least in text mode you have to be explicit about what you mean, so there is much less chance of misunderstanding. So while I always prefer to meet in person, I would never use a phone when I can email or IM. I'd rather walk eight miles to your house.

> IM is vastly inferior to face-to-face communcations

Not for everything. I don't use IM myself, preferring email, where I can think before I type, but when your purpose is to actually communicate information nothing can beat async text. I can process an enormous amount of email in the time it would have taken me to deal with each person individually; reading is, and always will be, faster than talking. However, if you want to have a party, that's entirely different. There, being together is the whole point of the event, and neither IM, nor email, nor phone, nor any sort of electronic mediator will do.

> Then there's the bad habits, like poor spelling
> and grammar, and shrinking vocabularies

Poor spelling, bad grammar, and small vocabularies are only going to get poorer, worse, and smaller if your kids never write anything. When was the last time you heard a teenager speak? You'd think their entire vocabulary consists of "like", "he goes", and "you know" :) Obviously, it shows up in IM too, but real life conversations are just as bad, if not worse. From personal experience I can say that writing improves my vocabulary and grammar, and when I later speak to real people, I find that my vocabulary and grammar improve then as well.

Re:Control freaks never win.

[Tyreth]

No, but I used to be one. I believe that qualifies me to pass judgement on poor parenting methods. (Although not necessarily to offer better ones)

Two problems here:
1. The poster's educated guess that you had no children was right. Think about it.
2. I don't have children, but I was one. That gives me exactly the same qualifications that you tout for yourself: yet I disagree wholeheartedly with you.

I'm afraid that you are the one who doesn't understand the issues like sexual predators and hate sites. Sexual predators are so few in number, that your child is much more likely to be abducted by aliens than by one of them.

If you want to persuade people, you should start by making sense. The chances of being abducted by aliens is close to zero. Zero!! Yet children have many times been abused by sexual predators. "It was just an example", you might say. Well, it was a bad one. You just said something that makes no sense. Here's a better one. In Australia it is required by law that you wear a seatbelt when you go in a car. Do we we wear the seatbelt for the 99.9999% times that our trip is safe? No. we wear it for the 00.0001% when things go wrong (that statistic made up).

Most children are not abused in that manner, but rather grow up dull, neglected, and harassed.

This was not my experience in life, nor that of most of my friends. Perhaps your outrage should not be directed at parenting as a whole, but rather towards your parents specifically? Just because one pair of parents abused their power does not mean that parents should have no power. For my upbringing it worked quite well. Doesn't it strike you as interesting that so many people, when they go on to be parents, still discipline their children? Doesn't that make you think that maybe you're not right? After all, you seem to claim that your ideas are the product of your upbringing, yet other parents did not produce the same effect in their children.

And why do you think he is not responsible? A four year old might not know what is good or bad, but at thirteen he should be absolutely certain.

Again, more nonsense. You can't seriously be thinking that by thirteen a person has developed as much maturity and rationality as they will need? They are still children with a child's mind, selfishness, and all other vices. How often do you deal with people at this age? They are very curious and just starting to learn about the world. I have been told once we turn 23 we have formed the opinions that we will keep the rest of our lives. That means that a thirteen year old has a long way to go of learning and shaping.

You think I haven't been a kid? Of course peer pressure is real. What I wish my parents have taught me, is whose people's opinions should matter.

This sounds again like outrage against your parent's methodology, not about parental discipline in general.

Hell no! Confucius said "if you rule your people by punishment, they will try to avoid being punished, but will feel no shame." Punishment never does any good. Whenever it happened to me as a child, I felt nothing but hate, and resentment, and helplessness toward the punisher. Any thoughts about my actions as having been wrong evaporated instantly and turned into brooding on the world's unfairness where the parents feel free to impose rules and punishments just because they can. I would eventually cool down and think things over, considering whether what I did really was a good idea, and about how unnecessary and unfair the punishment was.

Confucius was wrong. Solomon, considered the wisest man to have lived, has said:

Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him. - Proverbs 22:15

He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him

Heed the little nagging voice

[phyy-nx]

Parents seem to have a knack for knowing when something is wrong with their kids. If I were you (and I will be in about 10 years w/ a 2 year old and one on the way) I would begin some changes. Porn alone can change people's personalities into something you never thought your sweet babies could be: addicted, violent and compulsive. Not to mention the danger of predetors. A few simple precautions are all it takes though:

1. Put the computer in a public place.
2. Never allow them to be on the computer later than you are up.
3. Carefully explain to them the dangers of porn and predetors (the two Ps)
4. Do more things as a family. Specifically, pick a night of the week to always play a game (LAN or otherwise), see a movie, or otherwise be together. We use mondays.
5. Turn off the TV. If you yourself are not distracted, you will want company and people will talk with/play with.

These precautions, especially the first two, will protect the kids from from the two Ps. After that, I could see it argued either way that hourly limits are reasonable. While the no computer until homework/chores rule seems logical, I personally would be reluctant to use hourly limitations. I would hope that the last two items would begin to help them participate more in other activites. However, one thing my parents do with my sister is generally not allow her to be on the computer when something obviously "family" is going on: relatives visiting, games being played, and so on. Hope that helps.

Having been that kind of person, and moved past...

[man_ls]

Speaking as someone who lived that way for a while, then got over it, let me give you some advice:

(1) The worst possible thing you can do would be to monitor their activities online. Don't even snoop around in their history files, logs, etc. If there's something you don't want them doing (looking at porn, etc.) then make sure they know that "if they get caught" that bad things will happen -- but don't take any real steps to enforce it. Unless they do something dumb (leave porn on the screen while they leave the room, etc.) it's n not worth it. Monitoring just breeds an atmosphere of distrust anyway: you want them to trust you, and it's a mutual thing: if you want them to trust you, you have to trust them somewhat.

(2) Encourage them, but in a different way. For the first couple years I was in high school, it was difficult for me to see my friends due to geographic seperation (about 30 min. apart) and even then, my mother didn't really like my friends since she made various unfounded assumptions about the kind of people they were, based on stereotypes and rumor. So, even when I had the time to see them, frequently I couldn't. Assuming you don't think that your children's friends are satan incarnate, encourage them to invite people over. My last few years of high school (when I got fed up with the geographic seperation and found friends who were a lot closer to me) my parents liked the new set of friends a lot better, for whatever reason, and every other week or so I'd have 10-ish people over to my house, and we'd make a nuisance of ourselves, etc. My parents liked it for two reasons: (1) They got to meet my friends, or at least see them in person, rather than just hearing about them, and (2) I was socializing. Now, admittedly, when I had friends in the area, I would never stay home to be on the computer instead of going out with them, but they didn't really catch on to that. So, conclusion: encourage your children to invite their friends to your house. and don't give them too much trouble if the music is loud, or there's people running all over the place.

(3) Since you seem to be the Slashdot parent, I'm sure you've got considerably computer skills. Option 3 is a bit more nefarious: Make the Internet have "issues" whenever you think they've been on it for too much. Whether the issue is "I needed to cut your ethernet cable so I have the full connection, because I'm working from home on an important project" or the issue is "the Internet's been really flaky all day today, something must be wrong up the line somewhere" or "the modem burned out" or anything. Set up some kind of a BSD box...impose bandwidth limits, forced-latency, occasionally remove their NATting so they can't get anywhere, etc. Wage a covert war against it.

(3) is the worst thing you could do, but it is a viable last resort.

I didn't socialize much my first few years of high school, since it was difficult for me both in terms of time and transportation. Then, when I had transportation, I still didn't because my parents made it so difficult for me to do so: call every hour when you're with those people, you have to be back at 11, etc. The "management overhead" involved with seeing those friends was made so high, it was seldom worth it for me to do it, if I had to deal with phoning in every so often, and leave in time to be back by their deadline. Once I started disobeying their restrictions so often they gave up enforcing them, I went out a bit more, but even so the driving time was a pain. I didn't really start doing things in my free time outside of the house, until I found local friends. *shrug* Your milage may vary.

This was all a couple years ago, I'm since out of high school obviously, but those things were my experience.