Advice for Returning to School After Long Break? 580
arohann asks: "A few months ago, I quit my secure, well-paying (but boring) job as a software engineer in India and have been applying to graduate schools in the US, Canada and the UK. My aim is to get back to computer engineering studies (my undergrad major) as a grad student. However, after a 5 year break from academics I'm not sure about my decision and could do with some advice from Slashdot users."
"Here are some of the things that I'd like to know:
1) Typically, how do graduate admissions officials view work experience? Note that I haven't been working as a Computer Engineer but as a Software Engineer.
2) What are the differences between graduate studies at the Masters level in the US, Canada and the UK? I already know a bit from what is available on the websites, so I'm looking for some deeper insights.
3) I'd like to hear from people who've done this, i.e. quit their jobs and gone back to get a higher engineering degree. What problems did you face and what advice do you have?
4) People who've studied in the UK at the MSc, MPhil, MEngg level - how did you fund your education? Were you able to get things like teaching or research assistantships and how much of your costs did these cover?"
In Engineering (Score:5, Interesting)
Here's some advice... (Score:3, Interesting)
I hate to use a cliché, but... Just do it(TM)
After you gather all of this information, do something useful with it. I remember being in college and having a classmate who was in his early seventies. He had been a successful businessman, but had never earned his degree. So instead of spending his retirement playing shuffleboard and bingo, he chose to challenge himself and accomplish something.
It's never too late to go back.
Re:For the life of me (Score:3, Interesting)
For almost any Indian parent, a steady professional job (medicine, business, law, engineering, etc.) is far more attractive than a riskier yet potentially more lucrative job (artist, musician, comedian, etc.)
Those are certainly noble goals to set, but from what I've read the earning potential for a CS/CE major can actually dip with a master's degree. Most likely this is due to the fact that there are tons of CS/CE graduates who can do the same work as a master's-level graduate and will do it for cheaper because they don't have the "higher education baggage", if you will. If you work for an oddly-run organization (like US/State Government ;)) then sometimes having *any* graduate degree can boost your salary, but jobs like that tend to pay below market anyways.
going back to grad school a good idea (Score:2, Interesting)
I was lucky in that many (in fact, most) of the students in my department were also people who had been in the working world for years and were in the same boat -- trying to get used to being students again. They had more perspective and wisdom to share!
There are lots of programmers out there, but if you can demonstrate an interest and understanding in other fields -- fields that could be served by programming -- you'll gain an advantage.
I have also returned to school (Score:1, Interesting)
I'm still working full-time, so I'm taking night classes. I cracked my books open yesterday and realized that I'm going to have to "learn" again. My brain started hurting and hasn't stopped since.
I think the trick is to find a job like mine, that pays for you to go to school. Not only am I getting a first rate education at the best university in the area, but work is paying for books and tuition. That's something that I just can't pass up.
Re:Interesting (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:For the life of me (Score:3, Interesting)
After 14 years (Score:3, Interesting)
My Master's degree in Math was from 1980. I went back in 1994.
I applied to four universities and was accepted at all of them. So I had my pick of where to go.
The first thing I noticed was that, in general, the classes were somewhat less rigorous.
One math professor told me that was true for undegraduates as well as graduate students. He said that the quality of students they were getting was much lower than in the 70s. The high school (and earlier) education systems were leaving them less prepared for college than before.
I found out that older students were generally treated much better than the usual undergraduate students. That was true at all levels.
Seminars were quire interesting. Often, I was older than the profs at seminars being given by outside people. As a result, the presenter would typically think that I was the most senior professor in attendance. So if I subtly nodded in understanding of a point, he would move on to the next point. But if I looked puzzled, he'd explain it in greater detail.
The campus parking people were much more understanding as well. When I received a parking ticket one night because the parking permit was obscured by another parking permit, they dismissed it on the spot. According to the rules, that was still a parking violation and should not be dismissed.
Most of the profs treated me better as well. For example, in one class everyone had to do a presentation during the course. Most of the time, the prof just sat at the back during the presentation and listened. When I gave my presentation, the prof actively participated in the discussion.
With my background, I participated more in class discussions than back in the 70s. In the 70s, if I didn't understand a point, I'd just figure I'd look it up later. When I returned to school, if I had a question, I'd ask it right then. In nearly every class, I asked more questions than anyone else in the class. Most profs get tired of just standing up in front of the class talking the entire period and really appreciate on-topic questions.
Re:For the life of me (Score:2, Interesting)
There is a certain pleasure many parents get if their children are highly educated, and more so if it's in a field which they respect, such as engineering or law. Many Indian kids feel the need to fulfill the dreams of their parents, because of what their parents sacrificed for them.
Highly recommended, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
So I went back for CS, and am currently in the process of completing an MS thesis, which should also carry me into a PhD.
It's been a *great* experience, but not without hiccups...
1) Typically, how do graduate admissions officials view work experience? Note that I haven't been working as a Computer Engineer but as a Software Engineer.
The better (top 40-50 in the US) graduate schools exist primarily to create more professors. So your re-entry to the graduate community will be evaluated in academic terms. Despite the greater integration of the commercial and academic worlds through the Internet, academia still is an ivory tower that operates according to its own rules.
Meaning: the better schools generally don't consider work experience relevant *at all*. Unless you were doing *research* or research-type work- had papers or other relevant public/peer reviewed published materials to show for your time- work experience is irrelevant. In fact, it's unhelpful, because you spent productive years *not* doing research.
Don't even bother to submit recommendations from employers, unless those employers themselves have recognized academic credentials (meaning, a professorship. PhDs don't count.).
Put another way, I found that schools considered my *undergraduate* academic performance- from *10 years* prior- to be more relevant in their evaluations than *any* of the innovative, creative professional work I had done since.
This is startling and dismaying, but you'll get over it.
2) What are the differences between graduate studies at the Masters level in the US, Canada and the UK? I already know a bit from what is available on the websites, so I'm looking for some deeper insights.
I can't speak for Canada or the UK, but MS work in the US is viewed in academic circles as *professional*, almost like a trade school. It is of course possible to do research as an MS student, but at most schools there is a class distinction between MS and PhD students that limits access to professors or funding or other academic resources. Most schools expect MS students to *have* another job, while for PhD students, getting a PhD *is* their job.
3) I'd like to hear from people who've done this, i.e. quit their jobs and gone back to get a higher engineering degree. What problems did you face and what advice do you have?
It's been a tremendously *positive* experience for me. However, it was a challenge adjusting after not being in an academic environment for 10 years.
The biggest adjustment for me, frankly, was ego. I came in as an MS student, so it was a challenge coming in at the bottom of the academic food chain, after being at the top in the professional world for the last several years. But humility is a virtue, so I consider this to be a great adjustment to have to go through.
The second biggest adjustment was working/learning style. In academia, especially in research, you get points for completeness and correctness, while in the professional world, you get points for efficiency.
The strategies you learn and the risks you take in the professional world to be efficient, to get quickly to market, to employ FUD effectively to thwart your competitors and deal with the crazy needs of clients/customers- these are the wrong strategies and behaviors in the academic world.
There of course is hand-waving and FUD and all that in academia, and a strong competitive dynamic (getting papers into conferences, etc)- but the way the game is played, as I found it at least, is completely different.
4) People who've studied in the UK at the MSc, MPhil, MEngg level - how did you fund your education? Were you able to get things like teaching or research assis
Re:For the life of me (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Plan on spending a lot of time reviewing... (Score:3, Interesting)
I definitely felt that my undergrad was a bit of a whirlwind. Now that I'm in grad school, however, all the undergrad stuff seems very trivial. I think it's a few years of unconscious digestion of the ideas, plus a bit of wisdom coming in.
About applying: I applied "normally" for one grad program but I was rejected. Then I decided to approach from a different angle. I started talking to professors in my chosen field. I volunteered my services for a brief period (a few weeks) for a small project one of them had. I was totally upfront about my expectations: I was hoping we could work together for a while and I could learn a bit about the department and how it works. I also wanted a good reference letter and possibly some help getting into grad school -- assuming of course that we both get along and work well together etc.
The professor and I got along very well. Not only did he keep me on for the period and offer to write me a great letter, but he also employed me over the summer, and offered to be my graduate supervisor. I don't know if this is universally true, but in my department it seems that if a professor really wants you to be his/her grad student, then you *will* be accepted as long as you meet minimum standards (or can give them a really strong reason to let you in anyhow).
Re:For the life of me (Score:2, Interesting)
root of problem in Hong Kong - too many professionals. chinese parents INSIST on their kids being professionals, and the result - OVERSUPPLY of medical doctors in Hong Kong, resulting in their pay so low that even being a business analyst is more attractive =)
Re:Interesting (Score:3, Interesting)
I ran the statistics last month for my department and 3 consultants, in a department of 20, are doing 30% of the work. Naturally they let one of the 3 go to a lower paying lower profile FTE job. The other two, a friend and myself are both looking hard for other work. Why work your ass off when there is no possible hope of promotion or higher pay?
There is no difference between the FTE's and the "Contractors" other than a meaningless budget line. I am sure the Contractors cost with 10% of the FTE's even with benefits. So why are we paying 30%-50% of our cost to some "payroll" service/temp agency? I thought the information age meant an end to meaningless middlemen. The funniest thing about this situation is that we work for a not for profit health insurance company and they are going out of their way to deny us health care. For what? One tenth of one percent increase in executive salaries. Salaries for people who I just watched blow 500 million and three years on a failed IT project. 500 million down the tube and nothing to show. God it irks me.
The only solution I can think of is to unionize or just get everyone in the dept to quit and incorporate our own company and outsource the work to ourselves.
Re:Mature students generally do well (Score:4, Interesting)
Damn. Boy does that ever sound familiar. I had 3 scholarships and I lost all of them too. I did horribly. I didn't know how to study. I didn't really get the importance of higher education. All I wanted to do was work at a campus job I liked (they really needed me which was a big plus for me) and play in the marching band. IIRC my GPA started with a decimal point. Yeah, I did a horrible job. I drug it out for 2.5 years though instead of only 3 semesters. Then I went into the work force. I just wasn't ready for college at that time either, no matter how I tested before entering it.
I've been planning on going back for a number of years now. First I needed to get out of debt and get some savings to live on for my first year or so (no outside work temptations to drag me away from my studies). I had just gotten out of debt when my employer laid me off. That was actually a good opportunity to go back to school. Unfortunately other things intervened. First I wrecked my motorcycle. That laid me up for a little while thanks to my back. Then my parents started building a new house. They needed my help badly. We had to get various stages completed so that the log home builder could come out and put up the house. Since then we've been working on adding the garage, wiring, plumbing, etc... I've been working on their house in various stages now for almost two years. Unfortunately the construction loan is up in March and the house HAS to be finished by then. That means I won't make it back to school this semester either. I will make it back to school I'm sure. Things just have to slow down a bit first.
My biggest concerns seem to be echoed by everyone here. I used to be excellent in math. I went to numerous competitions and I have dozens and dozens of medals for my efforts (minimal efforts, not to brag; I had a really good teacher set me on the right path). Unfortunately I can't remember jack now. I used to be able to do complex crap in my head. Now I can't even recall where to start. It's a good day when I can manage to add and subtract correctly. That's a big concern for me. I never was good at studying because in HS I never needed to. All I had to do was simply listen to the teacher or read the assigned reading in the book and I could pass any test they threw at me. I could whip out a 2-page book report on a book I'd never read in 5 minutes. I could whip out a lengthy research paper over night. Then I got to college and found out I couldn't do that anymore. I had to study to get by. Given all that I knew and my ability to learn, I just didn't know how to study. My failure was readily apparent early on. Ever take a 5 minute Chemistry final? No, I wasn't that good. It took 5 minutes to fill in all the bubbles as fast as I could. That should have been an indicator.
Well, enough of my ramblings. Best of luck on your degree. Hopefully I can get mine in the near future too.
Re:Mature students generally do well (Score:3, Interesting)
Well yeah, I'll grant you that, 42 is over the hill. I'm not going to be a namedropper, but my mentor here at Berkeley was on the admissions committee at Chicago and is now on the GRE board for one of the subject exams, so I think he's pretty authoritative, Mr. Anonymous Coward. He's advising his best students to wait a year or two, maybe more. My neighbor from back home, a tenured associate professor of anthropology at Stanford, has made his three very bright daughters, all who went to top-teir small liberal arts colleges, wait a few years to see if they really want to go through with their Ph.D.
On the whole, even you agree that arrogance is the biggest impediment to education across the board - an arrogant 42 year old is just as inflexible as an arrogant 22 year old - but I stand by my opinion that very, very few people fresh out of a Bachelor's program are ready for the realities of graduate work. I know too many burnouts who went that route - they get to 25, and realize they don't like their subject at all. Somebody who's worked in the field for a few years and comes back is much likely to be a determined, serious student, rather than some kid who's going to graduate school just because he or she knows nothing else.
I realize, as well, that as a young man about to finish his Bachelor's, I have a lot of that hubris, which is why I'm going to work for a few years and get my shit together.
Re:For the life of me (Score:2, Interesting)
Too many people are taking this silver bullet approach - graduate degrees can be good but alone the will not offer security.
We have two people (Indians - but this applies to all people) in our group, one has their PhD, The other two Master Degrees. For sake of argument lets assume they are from an accredited University. The PhD has very poor English skills - so bad our boss can't understand him, even after several retries. The PhD doesn't understand my bosses assignments - and has too much pride to say so - so he ends up failing. He has been let go, so how did that PhD give him security?
The MA**2 has sketchy English skills but cannot understand directions - and when asked to perform a task in a certain manner they will refuse because the person has less education than them. This person has zero collaboration skills. We achieve much more as a team than any individual - this person has also been let go.
Both of these people got in the door because of their education - but it was quite clear that they had no real workplace skills. Their technical skills (even after 6+ years experience) were about the level of a mediocre co-op student. I feel sorry for them - but hopefully they will figure things out.
MBAs are not the holy grail of gainful employment either - we have several in our organization who go theirs and expected the success to start rolling in. They are still waiting.
One of the few things that people don't concentrate on are their people skills. I'm not talking about shmoozing and sucking up - I'm talking about how do you work with the people around you to achieve success? The people make the organization. How do you make sure you and your team are all on the same page? Do you talk to your group about your tasks to see how you can help each other? Do you make them comfortable talking to you? Do you make it easy for them to bring ctritisizm to you? Do you know how to make stone soup? Do you hold grudges? Do you praise your team mates for their clever ideas? Do you take yourself too seriously? Are you having fun? Are you making those around you have fun? These aren't just duties for a manager - they are for all.
How does one get these skills? Experience working with people. This may be years of experience working in your field - or non-related activities like sports, musical bands/groups, political groups - anything where you have a group of people forming for a goal. Heck even those guys on network games like Counterstike and Halo 2 have people skills. Although probably not a good thing to put on the resume, but I have a great deal of respect for the people on those games that can form a group of people they just met a few minutes ago and organize a team, and move methodically through capturing a flag or a goal - with a headset and their mounth and ears as the only tools. Which team are you on? The orgnized team or the team that gets hammered on?
We do have several PhD and MSc's (Indians included) in our group who have great collaboration skills and can communicate their ideas effectively. They also have great interpersonal skills and have a professional attitude (always positive, no gossip, willing to help, can-do attidute). I'm sure their education got them in the door, but these other attributes (and more) helped them stay there. Isn't that what (job) security is all about?
Re:Mature students generally do well (Score:4, Interesting)
Being 40 years old helped, I'm sure. I can most definitely say that I'm not the same person that I was 20 years ago. Which is a good thing, because I'd probably be dead if I'd kept it up.
Interestingly, though, when I started talking about getting an MSEE, the company where I work (with about 20,000 employees) offered to pay for it, but pointed out that it wouldn't be particularly beneficial in terms of promotions or pay increases. Where I'm at, I guess, the degree gets you in the door, then it's experience from there.
-h-
U.S. versus Canada (Score:2, Interesting)
The big difference is that in Canada, people typically finish their Master's before getting a PhD, whereas in the States, they often apply directly to a PhD. Grad school to the PhD level usually takes a few years longer in Canada as a result.
This implies that Canadian schools take their master's students more seriously than U.S. ones, because it's not known whether you'll go further to a PhD (and helping your professor's reputation) or be a so-called "terminal master's" (sounds like a disease doesn't it). In the U.S., since a high percentage of master's students are terminal master's, the professors are less likely to invest as much time and effort into them. In the worst case, the U.S. master's can get seen as a tuition farm or a kind of dumping ground for PhD dropouts, whereas in Canada the master's is seen as a somewhat necessary step along the way to a PhD.
This is talking about research (M.S. or M.Sc.) master's of course. Professional master's degrees are a whole nuther ballgame, and usually involve big tuition in exchange for more job security.
Re:The answer is ! (Score:3, Interesting)
Before I hear some crap from a bunch of free market, Fox loving, orielly fans consider this.
I work with a guy that came over here from main land china on an H1B. Nice guy. I had been laid off a couple of years ago. Downsizing not outsourcing. Anyway he asked me what benefits american workers got for being laid off severance etc. I told him nothing. I got a 2 weeks pay as serverance, but the company was not required to do that. I got 300something dollars every two weeks in unemployment and that was it.
He was shocked, Chinese mainland workers had far more 'rights' after they were laid off than we Americans. Thier companies were required to give them so many months pay as serverance and they alot of training and other things we don't get.
I thought that was quite amusing here we are carping at the chinese about their human rights situation and in some areas we are worse off as Americans.
Of couse you know with George II in power the rights of workers will only diminish, never increase.
As long as the US treats thier workers like disposable diapers and the thieveing bastards that run our companies as some sort of Gods here on earth, expect fear and depise of Indians and Chinese to go up not down.
Re:For the life of me (Score:3, Interesting)
After years studying EE (both B.S. and M.S.), I worked in the industry for a few years. Yeah, I could do it - but my heart really wasn't into it. Thankfully, I decided to take control of my own life, and left engineering behind. I can totally understand how frustrating some people find it, especially if they are forced into 'stable' careers. Which, by the way, doesn't exist in ANY field, especially engineering.
I'm now a grad student in computer animation while working as an IT person in our university, and a web cartoonist in my spare time. Sure, it's not as much money, BUT, I'm MUCH happier now.
And in the end, that's what it's all about.
Going back to school (Score:2, Interesting)
I suppose I should also preface my remarks with the comment that my experience is not up-to-the-minute-current (:-)). I got my undergrad degree in 1965, spent 5 years in the nuclear Navy and then returned to graduate school. I took the GREs and applied to 5 schools. I never heard from one, was rejected at one, accepted at one without financial, accepted another with financial aid, and heard late (after I'd accepted) from one that lost all the applications for awhile!) Who knows how the experience played there -- mixed I'd guess.
I ended up at Johns Hopkins in a PhD only (no MS) program.
There were 10 of us newbies at JHU/CS in 1970-- 5 had been working, in various fields, for 3-8 years, and 5 were coming straight from undergrad. I can't tell you what the faculty was thinking, but looking at those numbers it doesn't look like they considered it a negative. There were some interesting differences between the two groups. Those coming straight to Grad school from undergrad found gradschool was harder than they were used to. Those coming back to school from work found it much more enjoyable and easier than working. The first one through was one of those coming straight from undergrad. On the other hand, he was the only one in his group that actually completed the program. One of those coming back dropped out, the rest of us finished. The undergrad finished in about 3 years. I took 5. The longest took 7 (which was the time limit).
I spent some time in my last year of working reading up on the area I was interested in pursuing, including stopping by a couple of college bookstores and finding interesting textbooks.
My undergrad was BA, Math/Physics. The PhD was intended to be Computer Science, but the department died my first year, we were grandfathered into the EE department, which became EE/CS. The fact that I'd worked in another field was not a problem.
I think the work experience was very valuable in gradschool -- it helped me focus on important issues. I'm a kinda theory type, but I like to wallow in the bits, too. JHU is/was focused on theory, which I liked, but I could also stay close to practice.
One big difference was as a LT, USN, I was used to having responsibility and being "allowed" anywhere. As a grad student, I was in a significantly different position -- I couldn't even get into equipment room to mount a paper tape without "supervision" -- that was a change.
In general, I think work experience is a plus. You'll have some adjustment to do to get back to studying, but your perspective will be an asset some of your fellow students will benefit from.
I also benefitted by having a colleague who was on leave from Bell Labs in my class. I liked his stories enough that when I finished, that's where I went (Development, not Research). You'll provide similar benefits to your fellow students.
When I taught as a visiting professor, students with work experience were an asset to the class, too. You probably wouldn't want to go to any place that considered it a problem.
I say, go for it! It sure beats working.
joe