Programming Until Retirement? 660
DataDragon asks: "Here's the situation- I'm a now 30something computer programmer in Silicon Valley working for one of the local billion+ dollar tech companies. I'm unhappy with my present job, but am thankful that I've got one. Although I pride myself on having written over a million lines of code in my career, with nearly 15 commercial software products under my belt (8 of them were my own concepts from start-to-finish). I've had carpal tunnel for 6 years now, my skillset looks like it came from a 3 year old magazine, and I didn't make good on stock options. Since settling down in a quiet place somewhere and having a family sounds like a great idea to myself and my bride-to-be, I was wondering: instead of all the buzz I always get like Google's 'Do you <insert technology task> in your sleep?' job opportunities I've read about, are there any employers that would rather have a person who: wants to put in an honest day's work; get to know the job and the people well; and a desire to ultimately be a mentor for the company processes, instead of a here-today-gone-tomorrow programmer, who is interested in actually working there until retirement age?"
Do what you enjoy (Score:5, Informative)
"Management" used as a solution by many (Score:4, Informative)
Probably because their experience with coding makes them more suitable for taking decisions regarding project lead and also more suitable for giving answers to questions (in order to avoid repeating the same mistakes over and over again).
I've noticed that most companies do this - use their internal pool of experienced programmers in order to push them into mentoring/management positions, instead of throwing the management openings at the public and accepting CVs for it.
On one side, it's a good practice, because only those with previous experience inside the company will have access to those places, and by the time they get there they should know the process inside out. On the other hand, not throwing those positions towards the public makes them lose a full range of potential employees.
Re:Carpal Tunnel? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:FFS? (Score:0, Informative)
Re:FFS? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:"Management" used as a solution by many (Score:3, Informative)
My former Director at Geac, Jacob Slonim, had a standard policy to keep people engaged, learning and growing in value to both themselves and the company: If you went for a promotion on the tech ladder, he'd second you to the business/management side for at least a quarter. A programmer got to learn what a business analyst does, an architect gets to learn team management, and so on.
Net result? Senior engineers with insight into the business, and sensitivity about not being "the unmanagable engineer" (;-))
--dave
federal government! (Score:2, Informative)
(1) 40 hour work week, no more.
(2) One of the best health benefits package for you and your family you can find.
(3) Pay that's not outrageous, either high or low.
(4) Stability and job security.
(5) Conferences and training galore (if you want, not required if you don't).
(6) Pay raise every year (cost of living increase).
I could go on but I trust I don't have to. I've been with the federal government for years and I'm not going anywhere. I work 40 a week and I go home. I set my own hours. I love my job.
Think about it.
Re:Carpal Tunnel? (Score:1, Informative)
So I decided that it wasn't really worth the hassle, and that mouse clicks bothered me much more than typing did and just went back to using QWERTY.
However, three of my friends later moved to dvorak, and they stuck with it for the novelty factor. There are a good number of people that use dvorak, but they are a pretty small minority.
Re:Carpal Tunnel (Score:3, Informative)
Often, computer folks type on a keyboard which is not flush with their desk. The keyboard sits on the desk, and your wrist sits on the desk too. Thus, your hands are "above" your wrists.
The opposite is playing guitar. Your wrist is all bent down in order to hit the notes, and this causes tendonitis. My dad has been a professional guitarist for 40 years, and he has extremely bad tendonitis.
The two problems are caused by opposite repetative stresses. Tendonitis and CP are both RSI (repetative stress injuries).
(Note, im paraphrasing from what my doctor and such has told me - IANAD).
Re:Carpal Tunnel (Score:3, Informative)
The solution to carpal tunnel is WORK HARDER. Ie, hit the fucking gym and do weights, this will contract muscles fully and help get rid of lactic acid as well. Also, get yourself one of those hand-grip spring exercisers, they are like 5$ tops. Do some squeezes every 15 minutes or so. Make it a habit, leave the thing next to your keyboard/mouse.
I am a PCB designer, there's nothing worse for carpal, once the netlist is ready and the prep work is done, there's practically no more keyboard action. I've used the mouse straight for weeks with about a million clicks a week, and the pain was incredible, and numbness too. I tried all kinds of treatments, but exercise is the only thing that worked. Please try it, as it is cheap and good for you anyways.
Re:Yes plenty of those employees (Score:5, Informative)
The good: My company values its employees, deathmarches are rare, there is no danger that my work will be outsourced to India or Russia, salary and benefits are fantastic, and the work can be technically challenging.
The bad: The work isn't always technically challenging, you have to play The Game (but then, where don't you?), and eventually you will reach a point where you must take on some management responsibilities. However, if you work it correctly, you can rise as a technical lead, software architect, or some other position which is mostly technical with only a dash of paper-shuffling required.
I used to be a game developer. The work was incredibly fun, but the hours were backbreaking and the paychecks were irregular, if they came at all. As a mid-30s programmer with a wife, two kids, a mortgage and a car payment to worry about, I am willing to take some less exciting work in exchange for a company that treats me like a human being, pays me every two weeks without fail, and will gladly employ me until retirement if I so choose.
Local Government (Score:2, Informative)
Try the Federal Government (Score:5, Informative)
Go Defense (Score:2, Informative)
If you are looking for a job change, I know Lockheed is down in San Diago.
Re:Try something new (Score:5, Informative)
Most entrepreneurs fair starting at least 3 times before starting a successful business. A new business also costs money. It is typically recommended that you have enough money to support the business completely for the first 6 months without making a dime, and again there is no guarentee of success.
I mention it because it seems that people are flippently responding to start a business... It's a long hard road to start a business.
Furthermore, look at his requirements as I see them at least.
Work 9-5 programming
Steady work/job security
Working your own business, programming becomes the least of your skills. For example off the top of my head here are some of the requirements you need to run your own business.
Contract law - Always nice to know what your are agreeing to when you start a job.
Financing - Most people cannot afford to start their own businesses without outside help.. At the least you need to borrow from friends and family (something I actually recommend against since if the business fails your depleting their nestegg as well as yours) to borrowing from banks.
Business Management - Always good and probably the skill I recognised as the most needed during my own attempts to run a small business. You need to know the basics of business how to incorporate, how to manage employee's, how to determine what to charge...
Need to work more than 40 hours a week, small business owners in general tend to work a lot more than 40 hours a week, especially when they are first trying to get the company off the ground... This may very with proper financing, but still you'll likely end up working for more than 40 a week.
And though not really a knowledge requirement as a small business you must constantly seek work. Try to get customers paying a service fee so that you have regular income from month to month rather than requiring new contracts as each finishes...
These requirements are for a computer oriented business, if he were to go into another type of business he would have to learn about that type of business...
So lets review his requirements...
40 hours week --- Nope note likely
programming --- Not likely, running the business will take a majority of his time
Steady work --- Not likely, small business has to constantly seek work and anytime there is a fluctuation in the economy you may face a slowdown in work.
Job Security --- See steady work...
So as I see it, starting his own business requires none of his requirements.
Re:Carpal Tunnel (Score:4, Informative)
A good chair (which costs right around $1000), with good armrests. A good trackball (approx $100), a good keyboard ($200-$1000+). Per employee costs are unacceptable for most people, they would rather just treat you as a disposable tool than a human being.
The secret is to get to the point where you can have these nice things; and there is no way that you can get these with any amount of certainty if you keep switching jobs over and over. Unfortunately, there are very few things that you can recommend to "the masses", because that's what government is supposed to do.
I guess even a Logitech trackball, a Microsoft Natural Keyboard, and perhaps some sort of buckwheat pillow or other back-saving device you can purchase for yourself might get you through if you really need the job.
Disability will get you 65% of what your wage is, and you won't be eligible for that money unless you allow "them" to do surgery on you and so on. Your source of money will be tied to being completely at the mercy of doctors perhaps not even of your own choosing, any refusal or exercise of your rights to refuse medical treatment will leave you liable for any and all money you have recieved up to that point.
Let's face it - it's not hard to understand - computers have been with us yet a very short time; it's probably best to try to get a job where you can either have the "clout" to get the tools to do the job right and not hurt yourself, or just get a job where you use the computer as little as possible. Either that, or you can get a not-so great paying job having others do completely unnecessary surgery on you. Well, completely unnecessary except for as a means for your employer to save on per-employee costs.
I became concerned about RSI before I got any symptoms at all; and I found some Northgate split keyboards on e-bay for a good price, got myself a Bodybilt chair, and built myself a custom desk with a fancy articulating keyboard tray I purchased at the local university's clearance sale. I can pretty much type all day, very comfortably - although I do take breaks often because that's what is recommended that you do.
It's all in the tools you use to accomplish your job, and it also has something to do with your physical, mental, spiritual, emotional health as a whole.
This is a brave new world we have with computers everywhere in the past few decades - lots of bugs still need to be worked out. One shouldn't for a minute think that anybody actually has thought about any of this stuff or done any kind of research or even had time to worry about it.
There's lots of info on the web, just keep searching - spend a lot of time searching, reading Google groups, etc... you'll get the big picture eventually.
Yes, absolutely (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.orionhealth.com/careers.htm [orionhealth.com]
See you at the interview!
Come to New Zealand ? (Score:2, Informative)
There is a lot of cutting edge development done here, I work for Navman for example. Dispite our our high profile worldwide we are a New Zealand based company and do most of our development in Auckland. We also have development centers in Christchurch and Wellington because of the shortage of engineers in Auckland. Your biggest problem with working here is the local equivalant of the green card system.
Get out of tech companies (Score:2, Informative)
The trick will be to make yourself not just a techie in that company. You'll need to learn their business, and after several years your acquired domain knowledge will be extremely valuable to the company. Business knowledge seems to have an inverse relationship to technical knowledge that way--being around a long time accumulates better knowledge, not just out-dated knowledge.
Mod parent up! (Score:3, Informative)
The parent coward really knows what (s)he's writing about. I'd only like to add one more thing: Don't rest your hands while you type. Let your arms move around the keyboard. Your elbows can rest on the chair though.
Re:Thank you for your service (Score:3, Informative)
You can make a living as a programmer but you have to reinvent yourself every 3 years.
Otherwise you will fall into the trap that you mentioned. Say if you've been doing VB for 5 years, suddenly you are in big competition with everybody else or that type of work is quickly drying out.
So what do you do, like you say, to show 'forward progress' in your resume? You either take a management job (based on your VB experience) or update yourself (i.e. java,
Re: Irony (Score:2, Informative)
You're onto something profound. Let me give you a few quick observations on why MANY folks make over 40K (national average) yet have little to show for it except debts:
Listen to Dave [daveramsey.com]. He's on over 250 stations in the US and also on XM and Sirious (or however you spell that :)
Cheers,
Fil
P.S. I like the Baby Steps:
We're on #5. Started with #1. Try it! It works!