Programming Until Retirement? 660
DataDragon asks: "Here's the situation- I'm a now 30something computer programmer in Silicon Valley working for one of the local billion+ dollar tech companies. I'm unhappy with my present job, but am thankful that I've got one. Although I pride myself on having written over a million lines of code in my career, with nearly 15 commercial software products under my belt (8 of them were my own concepts from start-to-finish). I've had carpal tunnel for 6 years now, my skillset looks like it came from a 3 year old magazine, and I didn't make good on stock options. Since settling down in a quiet place somewhere and having a family sounds like a great idea to myself and my bride-to-be, I was wondering: instead of all the buzz I always get like Google's 'Do you <insert technology task> in your sleep?' job opportunities I've read about, are there any employers that would rather have a person who: wants to put in an honest day's work; get to know the job and the people well; and a desire to ultimately be a mentor for the company processes, instead of a here-today-gone-tomorrow programmer, who is interested in actually working there until retirement age?"
Thank you for your service (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Thank you for your service (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Thank you for your service (Score:3, Informative)
You can make a living as a programmer but you have to reinvent yourself every 3 years.
Otherwise you will fall into the trap that you mentioned. Say if you've been doing VB for 5 years, suddenly you are in big competition with everybody else or that type of work is quickly drying out.
So what do you do, like you say, to show 'forward progress' in your resume? You either take a management job (based on your VB experience) or update yourself (i.e. java,
Re:Thank you for your service (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Thank you for your service (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Thank you for your service (Score:5, Insightful)
Carpal Tunnel? (Score:5, Interesting)
Switch to dvorak!
Being a programmer, you probably want one of the layouts tweaked for programming (that put braces and stuff in easy locations).
Re:Carpal Tunnel? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Carpal Tunnel? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Carpal Tunnel? (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem was that I often had to solve a problem at a co-worker's desk and switching between Dvorak and Qwerty was just too hard. The worst case of this was when I had to write some sample code (under time pressure) during a job interview. I didn't get the job (although probably not for that reason).
-a
Re:Carpal Tunnel? (Score:2)
Re:Carpal Tunnel? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Carpal Tunnel? HANDWRITING. (Score:4, Interesting)
my wrists started hurting after years of using the computer.
the solutions that helped most were:
1) using a 'spring' keyboard instead of rubber membrane.
2) switch to dvorak (seven years now, and no regrets),
and repogram mouse to avoid double-clicks.
3) practice HANDWRITING, or take up a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT
like piano -- this is the single most important thing that
helped alleviate my wrist pains -- i started playing bass guitar,
and by repetitively and rhythmically using those same muscles
in a definite OTHER way --it helped to strengthen them for when
i went back to using them with a mouse. if you're not into
practicing a musical instrument (which i guarantee will be
a useful skill longer than any programming language you
may happen to learn) -- then try handwriting -- it forces
the muscles involved into definite contortions which counter
the repetitive stress of clicking.
best regards,
john.
Not just health, but productivity as well (Score:3, Interesting)
You can program a whole second layer of the kinesis keyboards, activated by the keypad switch. By default, the right half of the 'board becomes a numeric keypad when the switch is active.
You can also program any key with an onboard macro.
I activate the second layer with a footswitch. While it is down, individual keystrokes activate macros: HTM
Oblig. Logan's Run quip here: (Score:5, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yes, there are (maybe) (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're having health problems due to typing, I'd look at changing your lifestyle--ei
Easier said... (Score:3, Insightful)
I've been trying to get out of Silicon Valley for a while now. It costs too much to live here, there's lots of air polution, and all pavement and tickytacky boxes wear down the soul. Still, I've been stuck here because this is where the jobs have been.
Except they're not any more, so I really need to get out. But how do I go about that? I can't just pick up and move somewhere and hope I'll find work. And the labor market is ovesupplied everywhere, so
Re:Easier said... (Score:5, Interesting)
I experienced the same desire to leave the Silicon Valley coupled with wondering how to do it. I sorta started wanting to leave back in '99... the bust hadn't set in, and paychecks were huge, but I was freaked out by the crash I knew was coming. Then I had a kid, and suddenly I was going deeper into debt every month. Couldn't possibly afford to have another kid there, couldn't even really afford the one I had. No chance of buying a house I wanted. We were one missed paycheck away from not knowing what the hell would happen to us, a scary prospect when working in high tech. Considered moving to the east coast near family, but didn't get a single nibble on the resume as the bust was in full bloom.
My chance to leave came in an unexpected way. The small company I worked for was acquired by a huge company, and this huge company had a fairly liberal work-from-home policy. I inquired and was told I could work from anywhere I cared to move. Coincidentally enough, my wife's company was simultaneously acquired by a huge company, also with a superb work-from-home policy. We knew we had to take the opportunity, and burned rubber moving to a cheaper state. One with a reasonable job market, and WAY better housing prices and cost of living prices.
It's been a dream come true. The culture here is much more focused on family. We've had our second kid. We're paying off our debt at a radical clip. We live in a house so nice that we couldn't have even afforded to rent one like it in The Valley. We can now afford to have either one of us lose our jobs for over a year and we'd be fine. And the likelihood is that we'd eventually find worthy replacements for our jobs.
I feel that we got very lucky, but I do think that in our experience lies the potential seed of a way out for someone like yourself: you could seek work at one of these huge companies (IBM, Oracle, HP, etc) with a particular eye open for prospectively working from home, either right away or perhaps after some amount of time on a project. It may take some time, but the good thing about such an approach is that there's no "cliff" of risk - unlike moving somewhere and hoping you pick up a job right away.
Best of luck.
32 years and still with the same firm. (Score:5, Insightful)
I joined my current employer straight from university in 1972. At the time it was a small software development company, writing bespoke software for customers on a paid basis. They key to a long career in the same firm is to continue to re-invent yourself as the experience kicks in, and the industry changes, and to hope that the company continues to be a success and grows. For it is only the ability to take on more responsibility that allows the company to pay you more for the experience you have gained.
For the first 6 months I didn't really do any programming, more learning how the business worked (how to write proposals to customers! - when I started I didn't even know what a proposal was). Then I got an assignment at the space centre in Germany for a year, and when I came back I was seen as someone with a little experience. So then, not only did I program (I became the expert in RSX-11M on PDP 11s) but I was also expected to supervise others.
From there - right until the late 1980s, I combined technical work (not just programming, but as I got more experience I designed more and more complex systems) with project and eventually line management. The more senior I got, the less the technical work involved detail and the more it became strategic.
Some times this would combine with management responsibility for people (and profit) at other times I was setting technical policy for senior management (I was responsibly for getting networked PCs on to peoples desks in those early days of the PC).
At the beginning of the 1990s, the ability for our company to win projects in which you wrote a bespoke solution for a customer started to decline, and the new business was more about buying in products and configuring them to meet business requirements. So again, my career and my skill sets had to migrate. This time, it was more about understanding the business needs of the customer and being to select and propose the correct solution. So now my career became a combination of consultancy and pre-sales support. I still had to have a technical knowledge of what was possible, but it was now a long time since I had written serious amounts of software as a programmer, and the knowledge of how business operates and how IT can help it became more important.
And the type of business is changing again, and as it does so does my role. Business Process Outsourcing (possibly offshore) is where the real volume of business is now. My role therfore is to identify, on a worldwide basis, and in my specific business oriented field (IT necessary to allow competitive electricity and gas markets to work), where the market is spending money, and how our company can bring its experience to win business in the BPO area. I am then called upon to both present these issues to potential customers to help win business, but to also present in public forums (conferences, magazine articles etc) these ideas and why they are sound.
Each of these steps has been a step away from pure programming. Some steps have been scary (its very nerve racking having to present in public in front of a large audience), but ultimately the fact that you have met the challenge is very rewarding. And so today, I am far removed from the original career. But I am still with the same company, in the IT business, its just that I have changed with the times.
I have described my career, and I am not alone in the company of having people who have been around for a long time and continue to do (to a greater or lesser degree) technical (from an IT sense) sort of work (there are even more who have migrated into pure management). I don't think any of them do serious programming (although sometimes someone will write a small proof of concept or a quick demonstration for a customer), but somehow there careers have migrated to being the "liaison" between the business world and the technical world. I think all of them would say that its a rewarding type of role.
Re:Yes, there are. (Score:3, Interesting)
A lot of folks (myself included) tend to get in late and work late. Quite a few others work 9-5.
I've heard people (especially managers) say "go home, enjoy the weekend", or "isn't your wife expecting you?" quite often. Only once or twice have I heard them push to get a specific piece done in a big hurry (usually with very good reason). People do it, but because they choose
Yes plenty of those employees (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yes plenty of those employees (Score:5, Informative)
The good: My company values its employees, deathmarches are rare, there is no danger that my work will be outsourced to India or Russia, salary and benefits are fantastic, and the work can be technically challenging.
The bad: The work isn't always technically challenging, you have to play The Game (but then, where don't you?), and eventually you will reach a point where you must take on some management responsibilities. However, if you work it correctly, you can rise as a technical lead, software architect, or some other position which is mostly technical with only a dash of paper-shuffling required.
I used to be a game developer. The work was incredibly fun, but the hours were backbreaking and the paychecks were irregular, if they came at all. As a mid-30s programmer with a wife, two kids, a mortgage and a car payment to worry about, I am willing to take some less exciting work in exchange for a company that treats me like a human being, pays me every two weeks without fail, and will gladly employ me until retirement if I so choose.
Re:Yes plenty of those employees (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, and at the end of your days, you can l
FFS! (Score:4, Insightful)
You really don't want to damage your wrists. if you are a programmer.
Re:FFS! (Score:5, Funny)
Especially after you've been married for a few years.
FFS? (Score:2)
Re:FFS? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:FFS! (Score:3, Interesting)
We've got a guy at work who recently quit smoking. He's been having pain all over - not from having quit smoking (he didn't smoke that much anyway). It's coming from him not getting up every once in a while for a smoke break.
Instead, he's sitting there for 4++ hours straight w/o getting up and moving. Not good.
But sometimes when you get on a roll, a few hours can go buy, hell, even most of a day, and the code's just flowin and... next thing you know your arms, back, hand
Irony (Score:5, Insightful)
I wish you luck.
Re:Irony (Score:2)
so then the answer would be yes.
another thing.. he should be ready to relocate.... and it might be a whole lot cheaper to live in that new place(lower salary might do).
Re:Irony (Score:5, Interesting)
Our first step? Sell the house. Then start paying off all our debts. We may not "own" a house now (I put that in quotes because we wouldn't have owned it for 30 years), but our expenses are relatively fixed, in the process of moving into an apartment we downsized and simplified our life considerably. And now, if I get the opportunity I can take a job like the above AND take the reduced salary. Because even though we knew money wouldn't buy happiness before, now we're putting this principle to practice and organizing our life such that we don't need that much money to live on. Our debts are getting paid off and we're happy, and that's what matters.
Do we have HDTV? Not anymore. Do we have a house? Not anymore. Do we have more than 1 computer? Not anymore. But our life is simple. We relax much more. We owe much less and our stress has been halved, both on our bodies and on our minds. Something to think about for those stressing about salaries not being commensurate with skills. Money isn't everything.
Re:Irony (Score:4, Interesting)
And, as I alluded to earlier, we spent some money. At one time owning a couple computers, a Zaurus, an HDTV, lots of little toys that add up. That didn't eat up most of the extra money. Student loan payments did that nicely. To the tune of like $1,000 a month.
So this isn't a sob story. The point is that we changed our idea of what we wanted/needed out of life and as a consequence our expenses dropped considerably. Now we're barrelling money into our debt (which is better than putting away a nest egg, IMHO, since we'll have to pay that money back someday) and enjoying the freedom that comes from having a much simpler existence.
You were pretty lucky at 10k! :-) (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow, put me down as another "You only pay $10k?" asker.
For comparison, let's look at the situation for a reasonably qualified programmer with five years' experience in a decent company here in the UK -- probably someone in a pretty good developer position on a project, or starting to move into team leader roles. Typical salary for such a person might be in the 35-45k UKP region (currently around 65-85k USD).
Our income tax system works in stages. On salaries up to the mid-30s, you're paying about 33% alt
Re:Irony (Score:3, Interesting)
Damn, I only make $60,000, and I pay more than twice the taxes you did at $130,000. If anyone needed any proof that Bush's tax cuts unfairly tax the middle class....
If your estimation isn't extremely low, I think I'll start crying.
Re:Irony (Score:4, Interesting)
In a Roth IRA the contribution is post-tax but you don't have to pay taxes on capital gains. The problem is that money can't be withdrawn before you are 59 1/2 years of age without incurring penalties (10% of the amount withdrawn, I believe). You wouldn't want to touch that money anyway as the amount that you would make with compound interest would be a nice nest egg for when you retire. Pulling it out destroys the best advantage that money has which is time to compound. This is important because you can only contribute so much per year.
Ideally you would want to have enough in your savings to pay all of your bills for six months time in case you lose your jobs. I just realized that could be what you meant by nest egg. In any case, it's common to spend a large amount of one's savings towards the downpayment on a home. I saved for years and years until I had $60k in my savings. I spent $50k of it on a downpayment for my home and still had to take out a home equity loan to meet the 20% down so that I wouldn't have to pay PMI on my mortgage. It's going to take me a couple of years to save enough to have my emergency fund built up in my savings.
It could be that this couple was in the same boat. With most of their savings spent on their house and not much left in the bank, it was wise to sell the house. You can always get another one. In this case they re-evaluated what they were spending their money on and what they felt they needed. I think they made the right decision.
Work for a small niche company (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not all that interesting, but it's a decent job. Just don't expect the megabucks.
Re:Work for a small niche company (Score:5, Interesting)
Work in dull fields of business: Banking, Insurance, and the like.
They're dull because of the government regulations that they have to follow, but in return you usually get a good deal out of it: job security, decent pay & vacation, and fairly good co-workers.
I work in health insurance. I started with _7_ weeks a year vacation time, plus a fairly hands off boss. Never been so productive in my life nor have I ever had a better job (good work too).
Try something new (Score:5, Insightful)
I think more people should consider starting their own company since small businesses have always been a staple of the American economy.
That's just my 2 cents, so take it with a grain of sand I guess.
Re:Try something new (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Try something new (Score:5, Informative)
Most entrepreneurs fair starting at least 3 times before starting a successful business. A new business also costs money. It is typically recommended that you have enough money to support the business completely for the first 6 months without making a dime, and again there is no guarentee of success.
I mention it because it seems that people are flippently responding to start a business... It's a long hard road to start a business.
Furthermore, look at his requirements as I see them at least.
Work 9-5 programming
Steady work/job security
Working your own business, programming becomes the least of your skills. For example off the top of my head here are some of the requirements you need to run your own business.
Contract law - Always nice to know what your are agreeing to when you start a job.
Financing - Most people cannot afford to start their own businesses without outside help.. At the least you need to borrow from friends and family (something I actually recommend against since if the business fails your depleting their nestegg as well as yours) to borrowing from banks.
Business Management - Always good and probably the skill I recognised as the most needed during my own attempts to run a small business. You need to know the basics of business how to incorporate, how to manage employee's, how to determine what to charge...
Need to work more than 40 hours a week, small business owners in general tend to work a lot more than 40 hours a week, especially when they are first trying to get the company off the ground... This may very with proper financing, but still you'll likely end up working for more than 40 a week.
And though not really a knowledge requirement as a small business you must constantly seek work. Try to get customers paying a service fee so that you have regular income from month to month rather than requiring new contracts as each finishes...
These requirements are for a computer oriented business, if he were to go into another type of business he would have to learn about that type of business...
So lets review his requirements...
40 hours week --- Nope note likely
programming --- Not likely, running the business will take a majority of his time
Steady work --- Not likely, small business has to constantly seek work and anytime there is a fluctuation in the economy you may face a slowdown in work.
Job Security --- See steady work...
So as I see it, starting his own business requires none of his requirements.
Re:Try something new (Score:5, Interesting)
Furthermore ... Job Security is a sham. Any reader of /. would've noticed by now the recurring topic of Offshoring and all the "it happened to me too" postings that are usually generated by these postings.
The important thing is to start small / part-time and to learn as much as you can about how to start a business (and all that entails) before going full bore.
The statement that most entrepreneurs fail 2 or 3 times before making it is true - I've been there myself, however if you never try in the first place, that's much more of a waste of potential than anything.
All the reasons you state for NOT starting a business are valid - to a point. However the rewards are often worth it.
1) Starting a business (as a Corporation or LLC) has alot of tax advantages. As the original poster and many replies stated - the higher your revenues as an employee, the more the government tears into you. Running a corporation gives you access to financial tools that reduce your tax burden (deductions, deferments, etc ...). You get to declare expenses.
2) You can then redirect the money you save back into the business or other investments. Usually the only time you have to pay big taxes on that money is at the point where you derive big income from it. Even then - you pay less taxes on Capital Gains than you do on normal salaried income.
YES - it's risky to start a business. But it's worth it when it works out.
If you don't want to take any chances, then there's another road to follow ...
It's called "Voluntary Simplicity". There's a book that everybody should read called "Your money or your life" http://tinyurl.com/4qrlb [tinyurl.com] that to a certain extent has changed my life quite a bit.
Basically - the whole premise of the book is to reduce your expenses as much as possible, get rid of debt and try to live within your means and better yet, reduce your lifestyle so that you can live within smaller means - when you make more money than it costs you to live - that's when things get really interesting.
There's another notion that people should have ingrained in them ... pay yourself first. Always automatically put aside a certain amount of money (preferably some place that will give you good interest on the money). The money you put aside from the getgo isn't money you'll be tempted to spend later on.
In any event ... whatever works for you.
Do what you enjoy (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Do what you enjoy (Score:3, Funny)
what luck! (Score:5, Funny)
"Management" used as a solution by many (Score:4, Informative)
Probably because their experience with coding makes them more suitable for taking decisions regarding project lead and also more suitable for giving answers to questions (in order to avoid repeating the same mistakes over and over again).
I've noticed that most companies do this - use their internal pool of experienced programmers in order to push them into mentoring/management positions, instead of throwing the management openings at the public and accepting CVs for it.
On one side, it's a good practice, because only those with previous experience inside the company will have access to those places, and by the time they get there they should know the process inside out. On the other hand, not throwing those positions towards the public makes them lose a full range of potential employees.
Re:"Management" used as a solution by many (Score:3, Insightful)
It's a totally different progression - Junior Manager -> Senior Manager is parallel to Junior Programmer -> Senior Programmer not part of the same progression (I'd expect a Senior Programmer to be paid more than a Junior Manager for a start).
Re:"Management" used as a solution by many (Score:2)
Those companies are going to get head-hunters to recruit qualified people from their competitors, or from somebody who has written a book in their field of specialty rather than advertise such positions publicly.
Re:"Management" used as a solution by many (Score:3, Informative)
My former Director at Geac, Jacob Slonim, had a standard policy to keep people engaged, learning and growing in value to both themselves and the company: If you went for a promotion on the tech ladder, he'd second you to the business/management side for at least a quarter. A programmer got t
Re:"Management" used as a solution by many (Score:2, Insightful)
Having worked in such situations, my experience is that such "promotions" usually end up being bad for the company, the promoted employee, and the poor bastards who get assigned to the new manager. Please refer to the Peter Principle [wikipedia.org] and its corollary, the Dilbert Principle [wikipedia.org].
Most good s/w engineer types seem to have poor personnel management skills, probably due to careers of deeply detailed, logic driven work. Managing people means delegating (i.e, ignore the details), and hand
Tiny businesses (Score:3, Interesting)
Work for a bigger company. (Score:5, Interesting)
There's always periods where you need to put in time, but in a small company those are the norm; in a big company (I'm talking 10k or more people here) it's more normal to work something close to a regular work day.
Think IBM, government, HP, Kodak..
--
http://www.stevex.org/longtail [stevex.org]
Re:Work for a bigger company. (Score:4, Interesting)
Alternative jobs. (Score:4, Interesting)
Touting for work. (Score:3, Funny)
In short, your looking for work and you thought
Well that's okay, good luck to you.
By the way, I'm very self-motivated, a genius in C++ and Python and I could probably squeeze the odd small or non-urgent project in....
Failed Interview (Score:3, Funny)
-1 Arrogant.
My Take (Score:3, Insightful)
It's impossible to find that honest open warmth where companies have employees whose primary task is the result of the company being large, i.e. a beauracracy.
Conversely, many smaller companies are not as capitalized as larger companies so the long-term propects may not be as bright. Then again, most of the people I know working at smaller companies have been there longer than many folks I know working at big companies.
You might want to consider starting your own company with others who share your vision.
Ongoing (Score:3, Interesting)
Programming jobs, however, are by their very nature, rushed. The company wants the product out the door as fast as it can, so it can start harvesting the rewards. The problem is, they don't want an honest day's work. They want you to work a month at 12 hour days and then either forget about you, or start the 'honest days work' thing while looking for a way to fire you for the next set of gung-ho youngsters willing to forego their lives for 'experience' and 'adequate compensation'
Government/Education (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Government/Education (Score:3, Insightful)
Totally... (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd definately recomend non-profit, or local government organizations as a good place for programmers to spend many years. You won't become a millionaire overnight, but it's good pay, good promotion, working with people you get to know for YEARS, reasonable hours, and probably much lower stress compared to private development houses.
Yeah (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Yeah (Score:2)
That's a big question... (Score:3, Insightful)
There are plenty of companies that'd love to have an employee with as much experience as you've mentioned, and in addition, someone with the desire to work for the long term. Projects from start to finish are one thing, but people aren't sticking around for the long haul like they did generations back.
With outsourcing and mega job opportunities still pumping stock options and elevated pay (check Monster, there ARE companies actively seeking engineers and programmers, offering hugh pay incentives) people are jumping ship when it suits them, even if there seems to be a dearth of jobs for those of us w/o them.
Company mentalities are different in this post
Cali and Silicon Valley Part of the Problem (Score:2)
Gov job (Score:3, Insightful)
In short, no... (Score:2)
Sure there are, but can you find them? (Score:2)
This life lesson is from my wife. She was married and divorced before we met. One of the things she noticed was that all of her relationships headed the same way - to disaster. So she consciously changed the way she dated. She forced herself to look for a different type of man, to look in different places for dates. We've been married well over a decade.
It s
look at education or government jobs (Score:2)
Carpal Tunnel (Score:4, Interesting)
Typing does not require accurate position of the fingers - so long as you hit the "a" key, it doesn't much matter how you hit it.. Over time the brain doesnt bother to take care over which nerves are activated/sensed, because it appears not to matter. Unfortunately, it does!
The consequence of this careless activation of "roughly the right nerves" is what is called Carpal Tunnel.
The cure is to relearn accurate use of the nerves. One of the best ways of doing this has been found to be to learn hand embroidery! Old fashoned watchmaking (or repairling iPods/mobile phones) would probably work too. Most exercise or sports, which require force but little accuracy, will make matters rapidly worse.
Re:Carpal Tunnel (Score:3, Informative)
Often, computer folks type on a keyboard which is not flush with their desk. The keyboard sits on the desk, and your wrist sits on the desk too. Thus, your hands are "above" your wrists.
The opposite is playing guitar. Your wrist is all bent down in order to hit the notes, and this causes tend
Re:Carpal Tunnel (Score:3, Informative)
The solution to carpal tunnel is WORK HARDER. Ie, hit the fucking gym and do weights, this will contract muscles fully and help get rid of lactic a
Mod parent up! (Score:3, Informative)
The parent coward really knows what (s)he's writing about. I'd only like to add one more thing: Don't rest your hands while you type. Let your arms move around the keyboard. Your elbows can rest on the chair though.
Re:Carpal Tunnel (Score:4, Informative)
A good chair (which costs right around $1000), with good armrests. A good trackball (approx $100), a good keyboard ($200-$1000+). Per employee costs are unacceptable for most people, they would rather just treat you as a disposable tool than a human being.
The secret is to get to the point where you can have these nice things; and there is no way that you can get these with any amount of certainty if you keep switching jobs over and over. Unfortunately, there are very few things that you can recommend to "the masses", because that's what government is supposed to do.
I guess even a Logitech trackball, a Microsoft Natural Keyboard, and perhaps some sort of buckwheat pillow or other back-saving device you can purchase for yourself might get you through if you really need the job.
Disability will get you 65% of what your wage is, and you won't be eligible for that money unless you allow "them" to do surgery on you and so on. Your source of money will be tied to being completely at the mercy of doctors perhaps not even of your own choosing, any refusal or exercise of your rights to refuse medical treatment will leave you liable for any and all money you have recieved up to that point.
Let's face it - it's not hard to understand - computers have been with us yet a very short time; it's probably best to try to get a job where you can either have the "clout" to get the tools to do the job right and not hurt yourself, or just get a job where you use the computer as little as possible. Either that, or you can get a not-so great paying job having others do completely unnecessary surgery on you. Well, completely unnecessary except for as a means for your employer to save on per-employee costs.
I became concerned about RSI before I got any symptoms at all; and I found some Northgate split keyboards on e-bay for a good price, got myself a Bodybilt chair, and built myself a custom desk with a fancy articulating keyboard tray I purchased at the local university's clearance sale. I can pretty much type all day, very comfortably - although I do take breaks often because that's what is recommended that you do.
It's all in the tools you use to accomplish your job, and it also has something to do with your physical, mental, spiritual, emotional health as a whole.
This is a brave new world we have with computers everywhere in the past few decades - lots of bugs still need to be worked out. One shouldn't for a minute think that anybody actually has thought about any of this stuff or done any kind of research or even had time to worry about it.
There's lots of info on the web, just keep searching - spend a lot of time searching, reading Google groups, etc... you'll get the big picture eventually.
Re:Carpal Tunnel (Score:4, Insightful)
You're making the assumption that most cases are actually carpal tunnel syndrome, and not a misdiagnosis.
Simple test:
if you have carpal tunnel pain, wet a hand towel with warm water. Push it into the armpit on the affected arm. Push your arms to your sides, using the pressure to hold the towel in place.
If it's carpal tunnel, this won't affect the pain. In most cases, however, this alleviates pressure and inflammation on the nerve which runs through your armpit (it's not well protected and is very prone to being pinched, especially if you have any soft tissue swellings.
Apply for a job at Microsoft (Score:2)
Words of Wisdom (Score:2, Funny)
I would suggest crack as your first product.
Advice from older engineers.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't work for software developers. (Score:2)
I work at a small company that develops specialized computer chassis, motherboards, and a few peripherals. Those peripherals often need embedded code develo
Re: (Score:2)
I've been at this for 22 years (Score:4, Interesting)
You must read and have the spare machine to play with. You must at least browse Dr. Dobbs.
This is why my resume is upto date after 22 years.
Now that the y2k issues are dea and gone, Cobol programmers now most commonly say, "So that was a Non fat decaf latte....?"
Can't turn into the guy that in 1993 walked out of a presentation I gave on Visual Basic because he did not know what a mouse was. This is a true story.
Since you invent stuff on your own (Score:2)
Start your own software company (Score:2)
I know someone who's done it (Score:2)
He got out of the tech industry completely, bought property and became a landlord. Last I heard, he does renovations and fixes stuff and has plenty of time for other things. While this doesn't sound like the right path for you, I wanted to offer proof of the possibility of a career change for some of your aforementioned reasons.
Good companies still exist... (Score:3)
On a sidenote, you could try therapeutic massage. That and a split keyboard eliminated my tendonitis (I thought it was carpal tunnel).
Steady Job? (Score:2)
This is why I didn't choose CS (Score:2)
When I entered, i was able to narrow down in a fraction of a second my choices:
- Business MIS
- Computer Science
I went with Business MIS for several reasons:
1. Outsourcing is there to stay, like it or not. They outsource programmers, but managment will likely stay put. MIS wins
2. MIS has more room to grow into upper management in stable companies. MIS wins
3. MIS has a signifigant business background, and can be applied to non-technology industries if needed. MI
A two-part answer: "yes" and "no" (Score:2)
If you want to keep doing interesting things, you have to learn new skills. Java/JUnit/XP; C#/.Net; I see a fair lot of ads for Python.
Get the heck out of dodge... (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, but not likely in programming/IT/CS. Why not?
College kids type fast, they know their stuff from programming classes, there's plenty of them, and they work for ramen noodles.
Have y
Carreer Paths (Score:3, Interesting)
Nobody seems to be interested in career employees these days. The few people that are career seem to have settled into their jobs over many years and have stability due to politics rather than skill or even need. If you're looking for stability, you might try to look for a job in a city, state or national government. They're about the only ones that expect to be around later without mergers, buy outs or out sourcing(well, they do look at that but not as much as normal companies).
For your decreased skill set, wrist problems, and unhappyness with your job, I'd say you need to look at management. You're experienced and if you're a people person, you could take a few Project Management classes to impress the suits, brush up on your power point and become one of those people that go to meetings all day so the people who do the actual work don't have to.
Young and/or Cheap is what they want. (Score:3, Insightful)
You find a place like that let me know. I will be out of work in a couple weeks. The company I work for lost the contract and new company is only keeping the young/cheap. The old company is using this opportunity to clear out some people since they are moving a lot of work overseas.
That is what you will be fighting. Outsourcing and young people trying to get a start in the industry willing to work around the clock for half your salary.
Now some companies instead of going out of the country are moving to state with heavy unemployment and low taxes and opening up shop. But others like the big three letter company I work for are opening up center in Brazil to cut costs.
Just look at the marketing coming from the big computer companies they are trying to bring back the glass house approach to computing. Let them supply the computers, SA's, developers, and so on . That way you only play for these skills as you need them, why hire them long term.
So you have a good job hang on to it. If you're as good as you say let other companies know you're looking. Let them recruit you, then you will get a deal worth accepting.
Are you focused on the tech, or the biz? (Score:5, Insightful)
The short answer to your question is, "yes." There are companies that want experience, leadership, and mentoring skills. There are companies that want experienced leadership to guide and direct younger minds (and younger wrists) in developing software. And no, Virginia, those companies are not all moving their jobs to India.
Focus on the technology, or on the business?
Programmers I've worked with over the years have tended to follow one of two tracks: focus on the technology, or focus on the business. If you focus on the technology, your skills are portable: the risk you take, however, is that your portable skills may be supplanted by a newer, better-marketed technology. (Case in point: Powersoft's PowerBuilder, which was all the rage ten years ago, and has all but disappeared from the marketplace.) To adopt a focus-on-the-technology view, you're committing to a permanent learning curve--and to constantly having to evaluate which of the new technologies are most likely to be worth pursuing.
Your question sounds to me like you're looking for the other tack: focusing on the business. In that role you're still working with the technology--but you're focused on how to improve the business. You're more technologically-agnostic: you know more about the specifics of the business than any particular tool.
The key: find a company that views you as an asset, not a cost
If you've been doing contract work, you're focused on the technology. And you've probably worked for a number of companies that view you as just another piece of meat to put in front of a computer to type code. To them, you're an expense. Far, far better is to find a company that views information technology as an asset--that says "if we do what we do better, smarter, faster, we have a competitive advantage." Those companies will, in turn, challenge you to do more, learn more, and offer more.
Where I work...
I work in Engineering, not in Information Systems--developing new products. The company very definitely wants me to do more, much more, of what I'm doing. From an accounting standpoint my work is booked as a depreciable asset--not as a line item on the expense ledger. I'm 46--while I still do quite a bit of coding (and I'm at work now, coding Transact-SQL for a big project), a lot of my day is spent teaching, coaching, and encouraging young programmers.
Want a gig like mine?
Some thoughts:
Is this just a young man's game?
I think you'll see
Try the Federal Government (Score:5, Informative)
get out, get out (Score:4, Interesting)
I believe that most companies think that they can hire any codemonkey out of college to do what you can do (but their's will need massive rework/refactoring) in 10x the time, even though they're only 1/2 to 1/3 the cost. Plus the older you get, the more time you're going to want to spend with your family (you did manange to pick up one of those along the way, didn't you?), and then there's other outside interests, like neighborhood associations and other civic and church (or Cthulhu) functions. Oh yeah, the older you get, the more time you're going to need for medical visits, and there's a health club in your future where you'll injure yourself once or twice a year.
And do you really want to continue working in software? Especially with the hours and working conditions? You have to face it, one cannot easily estimate how long software takes to get done (and I'll address that later), and since developers are some of the most optimistic people in the world, you'll invariably end up staying late about 1/3 to 1/2 of the time, especially if a PHB takes everybody's estimates and cuts them by a third, 'cuz he knows you can do it!
Unless you can find yourself one of the few jobs open at a big software shop like IBM where they have people that hopefully do a good job at estimating effort (and I had a buddy there that they didn't, and he had to essentially work 1 year of 60-hour weeks), you'll end up working at a small coding shop where they'll have to make optimistic projections to get the contract, and hence you're working late... again! And if you work at a place where software isn't the main product, you'll have clueless PHBs that are unable to figure out that software indeed *does* take that long to do, and why aren't you coding yet??!?
The folks that I know that are older and are making it in software have made names for themselves, have written one or more books, attend OOPSLA where they're presenters or panelists, or are otherwise looked upon as gurus. The rest of them are scraping along, waiting for the axe to fall... again. The true failures I know are those that don't want to update their skill set, or have truly vertical knowledge and are unable/unwilling to move to where their market is.
Unless a young person I know has true passion for software, and is willing to do the Software Engineering thing, which they used to not emphasize enough in undergrad, I tell them to find something else to do since unless they trip on the pot o' gold (and I know a guy that's been doing MS Access programming from home on a government contract for the past 10+ years that has been pulling in six figures the entire time), they're not going to make it on less-than-passion.
Now, where do you go from here? Hmmm... that's a really good question. As soon as I know, I'll let you in on it.
DT
Re:MOD parent up... (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually there are a number of issues... (Score:3, Insightful)
I've had fairly good experience with SMB's that write their own applications or need to customize packaged software. In my experience these have been less deadline-driven environments with less stress as a result. The difference may be that for these businesses, software is a business enabler, rather than the business itself.
Yes, absolutely (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.orionhealth.com/careers.htm [orionhealth.com]
See you at the interview!
Try govt. research labs (Score:5, Insightful)
Now I work for a govt. research lab. Although money is sometimes tight, and the paperwork is sometimes a pain in the butt, there are some really nice things about it:
- The pay is good (not mind blowing, but quite good).
- I work with some of the smartest people I've ever worked with. Almost everyone has a master's degree, and a good fraction have their PhDs.
- The job stability is pretty good (although no guarantees)
- Because of the stability, I can feel free to dedicate my efforts to learning the problem domain, rather than staying abreast of each new glitzy programming language. I.e., I can focus on my current job rather than always focusing on being sellable in case I'm laid off.
- If you land the right job, you get the sense that you're work actually goes to help people, rather than just line the pockets of some rich sociopathological CEO. That's a nice feeling.
Maybe the most important thing is the regular hours. If you're planning on having kids, it's great for them to expect you home every night for dinner and for you to actually show up. Kids thrive with that kind of stability and with your actually being around when they're awake. They only have one childhood - don't miss it. A slightly more exciting career isn't worth it.
Re: until retirement (Score:3, Insightful)
That's a big hit. Okay, I got Customer X's network running smoothly, but little B and baby E didn't see me that day - and I didn't see them. As a one-off, that's okay. Day-to-day, I don't see my role of father as "leave home before the kids are up, get back after they're in bed; maybe see them for a while on the weekend." That is not parenthood.
A job I w
Re:I hate technology jobs (Score:4, Interesting)
Rule #1: Don't get into anything you don't enjoy because you think it will make you rich.
As for your b-school suggestions, that's my background: BS in accounting, MS in management. Believe me, Big-4 (is it 4 these days) accounting is a bigger death march than any development job in the valley, with worse pay, more stress, and a phenominal burn out rate. Typically 80% of the new hires will be gone in two years, out of public accounting. They take their CPA certificates and the requisite two years experience and head off to a life of drudgery in some corporate accounting office. Those that skip the big-4 route head directly to that grind.
Personally, I love having the b-school background and experience. I've been a consultant and OO developer the last 8 years and understanding how the suits work makes me all the more valuable. While some doors are closed due to my lack of an engineering background, many others are open thanks to the business experience.