Taking My Freedom With Me to China? 1392
Solo Han asks: "I'm considering a move to China next year, and while I have just as many problems as y'all do with the government, I still like the freedoms afforded me, especially when it comes to access of information. Chinese citizens, however, do not have the same freedoms, as we are constantly reminded here on slash-o-dot. Pr0n, mp3z, and games aside, what are the things that those of you in the Celestial Kingdom know you cannot access, and specifically, what are the websites, search engines, news sites, and other sites that are classed as potentially 'dangerous' material? This brings me to my overall question: is the censorship that real, that hard to get around, and how do you do it? What methods and technologies are you aware of or use to circumvent the Great Firewall of China?"
R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Insightful)
Somehow I don't think it's wise to do such circumvention if you want to stay there short-term/long-term/permanently.
What would US officials think if a foreigner, who is planning to move to USA, talks about how stupid the whole security thing is, and asks for advice to get around it?
If USA can attack another country "Just Like That"(tm), I would consider Chinese's censorship a godsend given it's only imposed within its own country. If you decided to move there, respect its laws; if you don't agree with its laws, go somewhere else. You always have a choice.
At home I have unlimited access to the internet, but at work I can only access port 80, and I would never try to get around company's security policy because it's restricting my freedom to surf, although others might still try that.
And remember, when you get caught, it's going to be ugly no matter where you are.
So in my opinion, if you want to go into other's territory, make sure you find out what can and cannot be done there, and stick to the rules.
Missing obvious point? (Score:3, Insightful)
I have said it before, and I will say it again (Score:1, Insightful)
I wish you luck, but do keep one thing in mind.
Be very cautious when tormenting a power-structure that has few qualms with making you vanish in the dead of night.
The Chinese government is not going to send you a polite subpoena and meet you in a clean courtroom some months down the road like the *AA where you will be given access to effective counsel and a more-or-less fair shake.
Instead, if they catch you circumventing the Great Firewall of China they may descend upon you in the night and drag you off to a dank prison for reeducation.
If you're a foreigner... (Score:5, Insightful)
-Blocked Site- (Score:1, Insightful)
Have fun (Score:5, Insightful)
So basically your question is stating "I'm going to China and expect to be able to break their laws as I was fortunate enough to be born in a more free society."
Don't whine to the foreign media when you're jailed as a subversive influence.
What you haven't considered (Score:1, Insightful)
and if it's not, you're going to be making people living in china talk about restricted sites... which will probably be monitored by the chinese government since we're not over ssl, and great, you just made the chinese govt more suspicious of those people.
"Get Around" the censorship? (Score:3, Insightful)
You'll be breaking the law.
In China.
Are you a big fan of breaking the law in general? Are you a big fan of spending days, weeks, or years in a Chinese political prison? Do you like having your legs unbroken?
I would highly recommend against going to China with a plan of "Getting around" the censhorship. It's not just a technological hurdle to overcome, it's the law. And as a general policy, you don't want to be breaking the law in foreign countries. Their jails aren't as nice as ours.
Re:Proxy? (Score:3, Insightful)
That's what I did when I was on vacation in Communist Vietnam.
Problem is, I couldn't post anything on Slashdot because it disallows posting through proxies.
You can still read everything that's posted though.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:1, Insightful)
"I would consider Chinese's censorship a godsend given it's only imposed within its own country."
I am having a hard time deciding if you are trolling or not....
The one question you have to ask yourself is. (Score:3, Insightful)
I do not know what the legal climate in China is but you may want to think about about it very carefully. What risk will you be putting yourself and or your family if you get caught? It could be as little as a polite warning or getting run over by a tank.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:2, Insightful)
Nope, doesn't work.
Chinese censorship imposed beyond China (Score:1, Insightful)
It is also imposed outside of China's borders: upon Tibet.
What !?!?! (Score:2, Insightful)
How can you ask, and still be planning to go? (Score:2, Insightful)
If you even have to ask these questions, you're hopelessly naive, and will be eaten alive by the place to which you're headed. What, did you think that all that scary talk about being arrested and jailed for your opinions (or for even visiting web sites where you can read someone else's opinions) was just Republicans trying to make socialists look bad? It's real!
I'd be astounded if there's a single "legal" reader of this web site in China at all. Now, while it still lasts, you might consider moving to Taiwan.
Just Like That? (Score:1, Insightful)
If this "other country" launches hundreds of unprovoked attacks against your peacekeepers (as Iraq did against UK and US) over several years, refusing to stop, then retaliating against it after a long period of warning is not "just like that".
Re:You watch too much TV (Score:5, Insightful)
So those executions I saw where they had the people kneel and put a bullet in their brain never happened?
So there really is freedom of religion and speech in China?
So the Chinese government does not make huge amounts of money from prison labor?
And the Chinese did not lob missiles over an island full of people to keep them in line?
Just asking if these are all myths that I have seen on TV?
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:2, Insightful)
More like asking advice on how to smuggle Whiskey into Saudia Arabia.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Insightful)
Screwing around with the legal system of China isn't like wearing a deCSS t-shirt and thinking you're some sort of badass revolutionary. They have those restrictions because they intend them to be obeyed. If you're a citizen of a major country, probably nothing really bad will happen to you, but just getting deported will have dire effects on your future travel plans.
If you genuinely want to be a freedom fighter there, good luck. But judging from the frivolity of your post "here on slash-o-dot", you really seem to have no idea what you're getting into.
Re:"Get Around" the censorship? (Score:2, Insightful)
Just check with anybody you meet who is an ex-national of Iraq, Iran, China, Cuba, Soviet era-Russia, etc. There aren't too many happy stories to be heard. The other day an Iranian friend who fought in the Iran-Iraq war for Iran was telling me how kids were used to clear minefields. He wasn't lying- check Wikipedia or some place.
If he hates America and want to leave, I'd suggest Canada, Australia, the UK... all English speaking countries that are good safe places to live. If you speak some other language than English, there are of course a lot more choices.
Re:Proxy? (Score:3, Insightful)
-Erwos
Only two rules (Score:1, Insightful)
You can do it, you can talk about it in private, or semi publicly. But if you try to publish an article about it, you may get into trouble. But of course YMMD.
2. Keep your head down.
Try not to get involved into politics. Talking about it with friends is no big deal. Don't mix politics and foreign money, and avoid contacts with people disagree with the communism party and get money from foreign country, either goverments or some foundations.
Other than these rules, you will be fine, and you will find cheaper games, moives and musics. Did I mention Chinese food?
Re:"Get Around" the censorship? (Score:2, Insightful)
>Their jails aren't as nice as ours.
You haven't visited Guantanamo, obviously...
You haven't visited China, obviously...
Re:Proxy? (Score:2, Insightful)
easy ish ?
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Insightful)
saying stalin was better than hitler is like saying "Being killed by falling into a giant puddle of lava is better than being killed by falling into a giant puddle of molten lead." they're both very, very, very bad and probably very very painful, even if just for a moment.
killing people is wrong no matter how you look at it. kill one person out of hatred and you are no different than someone that has killed millions out of hatred.
I live in China.. (Score:3, Insightful)
You probably will not notice a substantial abridgement of your freedoms when you get there. However, due to the developing nature of China, many processes are highly aggravating.
Sure, you cannot access porn online- as easily as in the USA. It is still there, and you can find it.
One thing that really has pissed me off was that I left my computer at home in the USA running a server registered with DynDNS- I'm guessing all the domains with DDNS are blocked by china. I justed wanted access to my own stuff at home, not to start an insurrection.
All I can say is, feel free to express yourself at the right time, but use discretion.
If you want access to all your files, buy a 1GB flashdrive and copy all your important stuff on to that. Buy 2 or 3 if you need, or take a laptop.
Re:I have said it before, and I will say it again (Score:3, Insightful)
If what you were doing was offensive enough to them and you got caught you would almost certainly be deported which is true of just about any country where you are on a visa. If you are openly violating their law there is always a chance you would go to jail but thats true of any country. The U.S. embassy probably would try to spring you unless you were getting what you deserved.
At this point I think its a subject of debate on whether the China or the U.S. is actually worse in this regard. Hundreds if not thousands of foreigners have been locked up in the U.S. in the aftermath of 9/11 without due process, without lawyers, without trials, without access to their families, and often under varying degrees of stress, sleep deprivation for example, if not rising to the level of torture. About the only thing many of them were guilty of are various visa infractions, which should at most have resulted in deportation, not indefinite detention without due process.
China probably does it on a larger scale but the U.S. and Americans no longer have the slightest morale high ground on which to challenge oppression and lawlessness in China. Certainly censorship isn't as bad in the U.S. but as far as unlawful arrests go the U.S. is at the same level as China. You can thank the Bush administration for lowering the U.S. to the same level has authoritarian states around the globe in this respect.
What a sad way to define "freedom" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:3, Insightful)
He can make things better for himself by not going to China. As for other people - Well, he's not doing anything for them, but even if he wanted to, in this case, its up to other people to make it better for themselves rather than have some foreigner telling them how to do things. While it's far from a free country, most people in China are fairly happy with the way things are run.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Insightful)
actually, i'm having a hard time deciding whether the original poster, cliff, is a cop from china. posting a request for chinese citizens to publicly state:
- that they are breaking the law
- and explain how they are doing it
sounds a bit like a sting operation to me. if i were a citizen of china and i could get throught he great firewall, i sure as hell wouldn't be talking about it on slashdot.now... where did i put that tinfoil hat?
Re:You watch too much TV (Score:1, Insightful)
We execute lots of people. Why is it so important that they use cheap bullets rather than expensive injections?
You can't joke about killing the President, you can't say some things about Scientology...
US industry makes huge amounts of money from prison labor, with the blessing of the US gov't.
We dropped two nukes on two cities, something nobody else has done, to keep the rest of the WORLD in line; and have waged war since.
I love America, but are you sure you're not entertaining myths about where exactly the differences are? Or do the ends justify the means?
Re:Communism (Score:1, Insightful)
You, Sir, are an idiot. With any luck you can't breed.
Re:First in a series of Ask Slashdots! (Score:0, Insightful)
What Freedom?
Kind regards,
Dubya!
-r
Re:I have said it before, and I will say it again (Score:3, Insightful)
Any exceptions to this are them being generous and choosing to make an exception for political reasons.
It really bothers me when I see people make claims that are untrue. "Unauthorized jailing of US Citizens". Generally there is no such thing, in some countries without a significant legal system it is possible. China does have a legal system. (Whether you like it, or not.)
Never enter a foreign country with the intent to violate it's laws. You are likely to find out the hardway there are repercussions and that your country of origin has no inherent right to intercede.
You might want to look into the incidences where U.S. law enforcement personnel have been arrested and thrown in jail for kidnapping offenses on Canadian soil. I can assure you the U.S. government wasn't thrilled with the outcome.
Re:List of Chinese Banned Websites (Score:3, Insightful)
If I were you, I wouldn't particularly trust anything that comes out of Harvard University without verifiying it first. Truth is not their first objective.
Don't Do It (Score:3, Insightful)
In many countries, the government also restricts access to some things, but it's very narrow and with at least some attempt at justifications (whether you agree with the justification or not). In fact, off the top of my head, the only thing I can think of that is really off-limits in the west is kiddie-porn (though Nazi stuff is also nearly as taboo in some parts of Europe).
Forget the details and look at the big picture: you're getting yourself into a situation where there is no social contract. The Chinese government doesn't feel the need to justify anything and is simply unaccountable to its people. The list of what is restricted can change, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. You can try technical workarounds, but you'll live in fear of being discovered.
Nothing is worth that.
Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
Freedom is not an incompatable world view.
Democracy is not an incompatable world view.
Human rights are not an incompatable world view.
Equality under the law is not an incompatable world view.
All of these are basic rights for all human beings. The fact that the Communist government of China has refused to recognize them is not due to "an incompatable world view," its due to a small nomenklatura of Communist elites denying these rights to their people. The ideas themselves are no more alien to China than they were alien to Japan in 1945.
- Crow T. Trollbot
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:2, Insightful)
To illustrate your point let's look at the United States. When people visit our country and overstay their welcome our government punishes them by giving them the right to vote. Hey, wait a minute...
Well (Score:1, Insightful)
In fact , most of the english websites is not banned in China, except playboy-type sites.Sometimes you may face inconvinence but don't worry to much you will soon get used to it.
For news sites , I think the only one still banned is news.google.com
As long as you move to China not for political purpose , you can use the internet as you like
That is one difference about the U.S. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:4, Insightful)
The only right you are born with is death.
Let's get something straight here. (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems to me very few of you have actually been to China or even understand how the system there works. For the same reason why Europeans think we're a country of hicks driving around in a pickup with shotguns who elected a idiot to office is why you think the Chinese is some sort of omni-present superpower that oversees all of the minute details of its citizens' lives and takes sadistic pleasure in torture. You're taking in media hype and a fear of the unknown. China has its share of problems: freedom of speech and freedom of religion come to mind. These are serious issues that need to be addressed but that doesn't mean everytime you commit a crime in China you will be sent into "reeducation." That also doesn't mean if you use a proxy to surf the web that they're going to break your thumbs. The Chinese government are too busy with the same serious issues that the US is dealing with to be bothered by these minor offenses.
While it may sound like the Chinese police force operate a Gestapo-like regime but that's far from the truth. Believe or not, China has laws and 99% of the time, they are followed. They also have lawyers that will free an innocent man. Some people vision of a totalitarian society governed by "The Party" are just too far fetched. Do they honestly think that the police operate on whatever laws they please and the people live in constant fear? I'll tell you from actually lived in China that it is hardly the case. People are way too reoccupied w/ making money to give a shit. Just remember the same media that is telling you to be afraid of China is the same one that ran the special on 20/20 about the wide-spread dangers of drier lint fires and the world-wide SARS epedemic.
Re:Well... (Score:1, Insightful)
Honestly, people confuse me sometimes.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
When on earth will people learn that no matter HOW GOOD your intensions are; the only thing that simply CAN NOT be stuffed down people's throat, is freedom and the concept of freedom.
You can not force people to be free, they can only be free if they really want to be free.
Re:Have fun (Score:3, Insightful)
The US government's collusion with China at every step, and even dovetailing evolution, merely heightens the degree of courage in moving to China as a free person (even if only in one's mind). But it doesn't conflict with the chances that he'll succeed, even if only in a tiny, local way that inspires a few Chinese people. Never underestimate the power of a few people to change the world - they're the only ones who ever have (paraphrasing Margaret Mead). Most true heroes in our cruel world sit forgotten in a jail. That doesn't justify your freedom-hating criticisms; it underscores your own retarded attitude towards freedom, and those people who keep it alive despite severe opposition.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:2, Insightful)
I agree with you that a traveler to another country should respect the country, its people and culture. However, as I have learned when I grew up in communist Czechoslovakia, and as those of us who are living in the US are learning now, respecting a country is definitely not the same as respecting its government!
Re:First in a series of Ask Slashdots! (Score:2, Insightful)
Or like the russian guy who brought his Adobe E-Book cracking software to a security conference in the US and got locked up for it.
"George W. Bush The Great Divider"
Whatduyoumean?
Bush was the first man in all history to unite the Shiite and Suni groups in Iraq by providing them something to rally against. For that accomplishment alone, he deserves to be called the greatest uniting force in the mideast.
Re:You watch too much TV (Score:2, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:1, Insightful)
But keep in mind this isn't something exclusive to the US. All countries face problems like this.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:2, Insightful)
has a different idea of what freedoms are okay to restrict. Mentioning any of these restrictions would probably be considered flame bait, or off-topic, so I won't.
Re:Communism (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't recall mentioning Democats, Republicans or any other politcal party in my original post. I was pointing out that our country has also had it's problems with civil liberties in the past. Perhaps you have a guilty concious. Some of that White Christian guilt?
How many Republican KKK members have you heard of? I'd dare say little to none
Ummmmm David Duke is Republican and also a grand wizard. The roles have reversed in this country. The Democrats were once the party of racists. The Democrats are now more tolerant of peoples race. This is also reflected in the switch in the deep south from Democrat to Republican. Yep the south is racist. Remember the segregated prom in Georgia last year?
Get your facts straight before calling some one an idiot..... idiot.
Re:Just Like That? (Score:2, Insightful)
Truth, oddly enough, is also in the eye of the beholder.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree that if you break the rules in another country you deserve what you get but in my opinion you certainly do not have to respect them.
There is a big difference between compliance and respect. Respect is earned.
Re:You watch too much TV (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Just Like That? (Score:2, Insightful)
I can just imagine (reverse situation) someone French nationalist getting furious at the US for trying to shoot down all French military craft flying over every state from Georgia southward and New York northward across the whole width of the country, after those French craft had been attacking the US military almost nonstop without international blessing. And if that French nationalist called their jets "peacekeepers"? You probably wouldn't know whether to laugh or shake your head in disgust.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
...and sometimes not even that. IIRC there have been mixed judicial opinions on "right to die" cases, although the most current SCOTUS seemed to side with this in the Florida case.
I believe there are cases either pending or on appeal that deal with "death with dignity" cases.
Re:That is one difference about the U.S. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
However, while I may grant that everyone understands there are basic human rights, the definitions of those rights are cultural, and therefore the point there is moot. The mere existence of human rights cannot be the basis of an argument that another country doesn't have them. You can merely say they don't share our assumption of basic human rights.
As far as equal application of the law, I'll grant that pretty much every culture expects this, it just happens that there are always a few at high levels who can circumvent it, and it falls to the culture to police this. So I don't think the chinese people as a whole have this problem, though the government certainly does.
Now we get to freedom and democracy. You and I take as a given our freedom and the democracy. (ok, this country has an elected republic, not a democracy, but the word will do for now) However, in other cultures, the need for cultural and societal stability outweighs many personal freedoms. From everything I've seen, the culture of China rejects personal freedoms along these lines, though the government does indeed go too far in my opinion in enforcing this mindset.
Simply put, you're making assertions that require serious work to defend, and you have to understand the cultural background of the people you need to defend your assertions against.
Can you truly express why your first two assertions are accurate, and justify them to a culture not founded on them?
Re:Obvious Point: Torture of Rebiya Kadeer (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:You watch too much TV (Score:4, Insightful)
Look at the posts.
The first one is critical of the reduction of US civil liberties after 9/11. Okay so this is the same as sending in tanks to stop protesters? Plus it is "critical" of government policy! Try that in China.
The next one has this line in it "Ross, a convicted serial murderer who has admitted killing eight women in the 1980s, says he wants to waive his appeals and die". How is this even close to killing someone for protesting? How long has his case been going through the system? How many checks and balances? I want to see the my nation stop capital punishment. If I was Chinese could I say that on a public forum?
Your next link is critical of reductions in personal freedom since 9/11. Notice that it is critical of them plus no of the examples of abuses are running students over with tanks for protesting.
You next one on freedom of speech totally a none issue. A company stopped hosting a website. Not the government but a private company. Get a new hosting company. For all we know they did not pay there bill.
The link on making money on prisoners. This is critical of some local cities for seeing prisons as a source of jobs. You know construction, catering, and staff. Not using prisoners for slave labor. No shade here.
Finally the last link. Again it is critical of US policy. It talks about problems the US is having gathering information in Afghanistan. From you link "The experiences of Shamsulrachman, the villager in Sawai, suggest differences in treatment. He says marines searched his house recently and found nothing. But when they discovered a shell casing outside of a neighbor's house that he says dated from the Soviet era, they told him they were going to arrest him. He says the Marines were civil,"
I do not see any match here.
Your last link... Could you have a page like that in China?
The original post was that China is not as bad as you think and the media over states the problems.
Of course the US is not perfect, no country is. Where are you on the whole safer and free? Your post pretty much proves my point.
Is the US perfect? You do not think so? Lets talk about it. Let's try and improve things. Hey we could try and let others know about the things we feel need changing.
Is China perfect..... Let's just say that it is. The is for the best.
Re:Chinese censorship imposed beyond China (Score:3, Insightful)
Drawing that sort of analogy opens up the possibility of criticizing the states for continuing to hold on to the south, or the UK and Scotland, or Israel and the entire nation of Israel, et cetera.
Re:Have fun (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with your implication is that, over the long term, security and prosperity are inextricably linked with freedom and democracy. Western Europe had to learn this the hard way, and it took centuries to implement democratic frameworks, which most scholars think began with the Magna Carta in the thirteenth century. Those structures didn't become entrenched throughout Europe until after World War II, and only spread to eastern Europe following the end of the Cold War. The point is that the Western world has had a lot of practice and a lot of backsliding that led to lots of nasty wars, abuses of power and egotism.
Over the short term, some countries may experience a marginally better quality of life due to a government's unwillingness to to respect human rights. Over the long term, however, that kind of government inevitably creates more problems than it solves. See the Soviet Union for a large example. See places like the Balkans or Iraq for smaller ones.
If Peru had adopted and maintained democratic institutions a century ago, your friend would be much better off today. Instead, people opt or are forced into short term, "temporary" structures in which the government has more power than it should. Then that power is misused. It happened in ancient Rome -- a "tyrant" (before the word gained a pejorative connotation) would seize power during an emergency and then relinquish it. Until someone didn't want to. The point is that real benefits, materialistic and otherwise, come from a free people. It's only a fool's choice to offer security or freedom, because the two can't be fundamentally separated.
Re:Have fun (Score:3, Insightful)
The world is not so simple as "US good / China bad" or the reverse. It wasn't even that simple for the 50 year Cold War, when that was the convenient paradigm. Now we've got multiple layers of conflict and cooperation among free and repressive groups: governments, corporations, religions, affiliations and otherwise. So we have to leave behind the oversimplified "either/or" mentality, and just stand up for what we believe in. We have to keep *that* simple, like "freedom good", or we won't be able to say/do anything without getting paralyzed by subtleties and competing priorities.
Re:His next ask slashdot... (Score:3, Insightful)
Who makes the liscence plates in new hamshire? Prisoners.
Fix your yard before telling your neighbor to mow his.
Iraq (Score:2, Insightful)
Witness our current shining success in Iraq.
There are very few things you can shove down a person's throat without making them angry. You might gratefully accept chocolate if I offered it to you, but I bet you'd struggle like mad if I tried to shove it down your throat.
The analogy goes farther than you expect.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:2, Insightful)
Freedom is not an incompatable world view.
Democracy is not an incompatable world view.
thats a very nice speech, but you've managed to miss the point in the same way as the original submitter. YOU (unless you're a citizen of china, which i doubt) are not in a position to tell China what rights to grant its citizens. Its blatantly obvious that they don't think democracy is a basic human right, since they have an at-best quasi-elected government. 'Freedom' doesn't even have any meaning without context - freedom to what? Even in countries that place high value on individual rights, like the US, there's tension between the rights of the individual and the rights of the larger society.
The ideas themselves are no more alien to China...
its very arrogant to suggest that your ideas are the only true beliefs and that those that don't follow them need to be liberated. And try not to speak on behalf of more than a billion people next time, OK?
Re:Well (Score:1, Insightful)
Well, that's a euphamistic way of speaking. Put it this way - if you speak Chinese, it's a lot easier to find illegal downloads.
MOD PARENT DOWN PLEASE!!! (Score:1, Insightful)
Why? Because the UN said so? If we actually hold these rights sacred we should start actually enforcing them here, in our country, before we go out and try to tell others what to do, or force them to do things.
Human rights are violated in prisons and by our government every day, we are condemned by Amnesty international, just as China is condemned, we were founded by violating the natural rights of the native peoples. Democracy? We don't have democracy for the people in Wash DC... we don't have democracy in general, we are governed by tyrants, who care for the corporations, not the people.
Freedom? Tell a man in jail for planting a seed that he is free, tell that to those who wish to merely go from one place to another and are harassed or stopped at roadblocks and sometimes beaten by the police.
Equality? A rich man is more equal than any poor man, a white man is more equal than a black woman, the disparity between salaries for the genders is far from equal...
How long have we been this great and free nation? How long has it been since black and white men were gunned down, lynched, burned, for trying to be free?
We are a great and free nation, maybe more so than all others, but you seem to be deluded into thinking that we have found the one true answer, and that we can tell everyone else to fuck off and get with the program.
China has been around for thousands of years... I wonder if it is such an evil thing for a nation to be held together at the expense of a few rights that we in this nation have been propagandized into thinking are as important as the air we breathe.
Ultimately China lives, it survives, people will live, die, be governed, and be happy in China. Babies will be born and our race will live on. Certainly it would satisfy our moral indignation if they were more like us, but they are not like us... they live their own way for now, a tree who's roots are confined can still branch out into the sky like any other tree.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:1, Insightful)
Democracy is not an incompatable world view.
Human rights are not an incompatable world view.
Equality under the law is not an incompatable world view.
All of these are basic rights for all human beings.
Then nobody anywhere in the world is free. The USA is free-er than China, but the USA is not, by your definitions, a free country.
Freedom, a basic human right? But we all accept that there are circumstances in which it's okay to infringe that right. Most people agree it's okay to deprive criminals of it. But both China and the USA deprive people of it in questionable circumstances: China imprisons people for life for criticising the government, some parts of the USA imprison people for life for being caught stealing cookies three times.
Democracy, a basic human right? But nowhere in the world is there a fully democratic government to be found. China's is awful. The USA's is as good as any. But "as good as any" means it's a semi-democratic plutocracy.
Human rights themselves, basic? Nice idea, but nobody agrees which ones! For example, in a handful of countries - notably China, Iran, and the USA - the death penalty is not considered a violation of human rights. In the rest of the world, it is considered a barbaric punishment that has no place in a modern society. Oh my, who do we believe? It all looked so simple a moment ago!
Equality under the law, a basic right for all human beings? Tell that to the government of... yep, you got it, the USA. Which does NOT extend the same rights to foreign nationals on trial in the USA as are enjoyed by US citizens. Indeed, look at... I think you're probably ahead of me here... look at Guantanamo Bay. Looks like the US government believes it's okay to detain some people indefinitely without charge or trial (foreigners), but not others (US citizens). Does that sound like equality under the law for all human beings? Not to me. Thank God the Supreme Court has had enough moral courage to object in this particular case. Not that it seems to have changed anything.
So, what do we see? Your naive buzzwords are fine principles in theory, but your own government does not implement them. I don't quite see how you can criticise China's human rights failures when your own government is not perfect.
And, in any case, you have not demonstrated why you think these rights even exist.
Re:Iraq (Score:4, Insightful)
The problems in Iraq have more to do with lack of security than people wanting to express their minds freely. Had the US done a better job in implementing security post-invasion, I'd wager the problems we see now would have been greatly reduced. You can find any number of 'man in the street' articles with Iraqis basically saying 'Thanks for getting rid of the tyrant, but why do I have to deal with carjackers everyday now?' I'd guess a majority were more than ready to be free of Saddam, but they were not happy that it was traded for anarchy.
Re:addendum (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not about Bush.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Bush or Kerry or Clinton or Gore or whoever...it's not the nature of a candidate or party to erode freedoms. It's the nature of government to erode freedoms. It's been this way since the dawn of history.
Whoever we elect may be great for a year or so...but give 'em time. This really isn't a partisan or politicial issue.
IMHO, once we got addicted to the 'free' cash of entitlements, we pretty much ensured that people would be too distracted to care about freedom. Americans these days don't think about free-DOM as much as 'free' prescription medicine, 'free' retirement, 'free' education....etc. Don't believe me? Compare the upcoming brouhaha over social security to the debate over patriot act renewal. See which one people care about more.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
(emphasis mine)
I'm assuming you are not a United States citizen based on your choice of words here. Civics 101: laws are drafted and then passed around the Senate and the House of Representatives. Only after both groups have approved the bill does it get sent to the President to be signed into law. This means that the PATRIOT act did not pass due to GWB. The PATRIOT act passed because a majority in the House and Senate thought it was a good idea, and the President agreed.
It would seem that I understand my freedoms and democracy better than you. Oh, and I voted for Bush, too. I guess I shouldn't exist according to your logic.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:3, Insightful)
Would you accept a friend's dinner invitation and show up with your own food, because his cooking sucks? Generally you either don't go, or you shut up and eat it.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:1, Insightful)
Two counter-examples that immediately spring to mind are Japan and West Germany (post-WW2).
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:3, Insightful)
The reason why they want Fujimori seems to be because those people he actively pursued and challenged are upset and want revenge.
There's a difference between ordering your military to restore order and ordering your military to oppress. If there is a riot in downtown Seattle, I expect the military to come through and clear the streets and remove the rioters, using WHATEVER FORCE IS NECESSARY. No one has the right to obstruct my right to travel freely in the US.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What a sad way to define "freedom" (Score:2, Insightful)
Can I run naked through a shopping center?
Can I camp on the courthouse lawn?
Can I figure out how to circumvent a security feature that is merely there to insure profits and share that information?
Can I build my own amusement park or radio station on my lawn without a license?
Can I do much of anything without a license?
Can I drive a car without a safety belt, drive a motorcycle without a helmet, or drink alcohol?
Can I use pot or some other drug that isn't all that unhealthy?
Can I sell my prescription medicine to someone else?
Can I sell my own ticket to the sports game to someone else for a profit?
Can I choose not to pay taxes because the money is used for things I don't want?
Can I sign up for the military and choose not to go?
Can I trespass on private property?
Can I attend a Bush meeting of any sort without being a supporter?
Can I choose my own government without a privately owned and rigged election system?
Can I get the truth about anything?
None of the previous actually hurts other people directly, but they are all proscribed. I'm not saying we shouldn't wear safety belts. The point is, that we are a nation with the opportunity for people to have privileges. Those privileges are usually restricted by money and the resources to attain them; like getting a radio broadcast license.
The list could go on. Let's just say; "Americans have the right to say many things out loud." Saying; "Americans are free" is just confusing.
Oh gawd, here we go again. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:His next ask slashdot... (Score:5, Insightful)
For instance, if you're a government executive and the government gives you an allowance with which to outfit your office, you can buy desks for a song. Prisons who teach woodworking as a trade skill offer some beautifully-made things for under $100. They can do this because their labor costs are pretty much nothing. However, the prison can only sell it to other branches of the government--you won't find them for sale in the prison gift shop.
Prison labor is also used to clean up roadways; to dig firebreaks in areas where forest fires are a concern; to make license plates; etc.
I'm not offended by manual labor in the service of the state being a criminal punishment. I'm offended by the idea of convicts being used to make their wardens and jailers independently wealthy, which is precisely what happens in China.
Before you go about preaching there's no difference between what we do and what they do, you may wish to learn what the difference is.
Re:Knitpicking... (Score:4, Insightful)
It is ironic that the lead article is about censorship in China. Chinese censorship is clumsy and ineffectual compared to the advanced spin and propaganda in the USA. This is why most US citizens think America is a positive force in the world, and are completely baffled when the rest of the world resents and distrusts them. Of course, nobody likes to be told they've been accepting lies. Most US citizens will be feeling very defensive and will vehemently deny that they could be influenced by propaganda. Everyone thinks its something that can only happen to someone else. That is one of the reasons it is so cuccessful.
Outside the USA, it is well known that the USA supplied Iraq with biological and chemical weapons. Its not even controversial. Its just one in a long list of disgusting behaviours the USA has done and is doing. It was based on the 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' logic. Hussein was supposed to use these weapons to win the war against Iran.
Funnily enough, the reason the Bush government was so confident that they'd find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is because they know he had them because they sold them to him!
> The CDC wouldn't have been involved if the request wasn't > made under the guise of medical research.
I'm not sure if that is your personal theory, or if that comes from some actual propaganda. Either way, it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Medical research on Anthrax? At the request of a known dictatorship, currently at war? Gimme a break!
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
Yup. One of the underlying conflicts in many of the wars (ancient Athens, WWI/WWII, Iraq, etc...) fought by civilizations was hubris. People become so patriotic that they think their country is superior to everyone else's. Some leaders have even used this arrogance to justify wars. They believe war is "good" because it tests the true strength of a civilization, and the best culture will overtake the weaker one (social darwinism). In their mind, you're doing the enemy a favor by giving them freedom, communism, or whatever. What these people fail to realize, however, is that the only reason you think you're way is better is because thats the way you were raised; to believe everything you were taught was correct and any other way is wrong or inferior. Americans like their freedom, Iraqis like their dictatorship, and Chinese like their Communism. I'm not saying they're thrilled to be told what to do, but they are complacent because they are ignorant of alternatives. If the people become oppressed enough, they will start their own revolution. If another country tries to impose their culture on them, they will become patriotic to their own government (free or not) because of propoganda their leaders tell them.
You can not force people to be free, they can only be free if they really want to be free.
While education and the decline of religious influence have helped dwarf rascism and taught tolerance, we're still in Iraq right now because of the same egotistical "we're the big bad fuckin USA" attitude ("Bring It On"). One day, I hope people will understand that it doesn't matter if your an American, Canadian, French, Iraqi, whatever - you're still a human being. What geographical area or political climate you were raised in will never change that.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
> Oh, and I voted for Bush, too. I guess I shouldn't exist according to your logic.
Not at all; he simply disagrees with you. You believe you understand your freedoms better than he does; he believes you don't have as many freedoms as you think.
Whether you understand the creation of a law doesn't really determine whether you understand its effect.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not going to stand up for what's happenning at Gitmo--I'm as opposed to it as you seem to be. However, I can't allow the suggestion that what is happening in Cuba somehow makes the US worse than China to go unchallenged.
Mao used to rape twelve year old girls. His "Cultural Revolution" and "Great Leap Forward" accounted for the deaths of millions of his own citizens. When the US starts the wholesale murder of its own citizens while Dubya is raping children in the oval office, then we'll talk about "if you think china is bad..."
Re:Have you ever BEEN to CHINA? (Score:3, Insightful)
Except when there's a terrorist attack. Or something else that makes it onto the TV and can cause people to panic.
Re:I have said it before, and I will say it again (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Chinese censorship imposed beyond China (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it's not OK now. The world is a patchwork of territories, with every one of the major players having claims all over. When the western world became "civilized" (debatable), the territories were left as-is. The Brits have the Falkland Islands, the US has Pear Harbour and Guantanamo Bay (another wierd one) and so on.
Democracy in it's current incarnation is a farce. Do you really believe that if the residents of a country wanted independance they'd get it? Bear in mind I'm sitting in Scotland here, where a large percentage of the population wants it, but there ain't gonna be a vote on it. Over the water from me, Northern Ireland has been contested over by terrorist groups (funded from the US ironically) for decades, and it's not worked for them. On the other hand, we have Yugoslavia, where a bloody civil war got nations their independance.
The only peacefull change that springs to mind was the UK's hand-over to China recently. The whole independance giving (which China ain't!) thing isn't all that popular.
Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's status only came into question in the last fifty, thanks to the involvement of the CIA, during the cold war. Remember that? Lot's other places were contested over.
The fact is that I don't have a clue about whether the Tibetans want independance. But I'm not going to blindly believe the usual anti-communist crap that the US has been spilling for years.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:3, Insightful)
So, I take it that never attempting to make things better for yourself or others is part of your personal belief system?
Do you mean like America has made Iraq better? It's not for most Iraqi citizens.
The problem with "making things better" for other people is that your version of what's better isn't always the same as the other person's. Imposing your values on another is just plain wrong, and as far as you know the majority of chinese people are happy that pr0n sites (and the malware/viruses many of them contain) are blocked.
AFAIK the United States Government still runs a proxy site specifically for chineese people who want to access the non-pr0n sites the Chinese government restricts. Not sure what the URL is these days, it's changed a couple times when the Chinese government has added it to the restricted list.
TommyRe:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:2, Insightful)
It's unfortunate that this viewpoint so unpopular that normal people won't even discuss it, because at first glance, it not an unreasonable conclusion. As a child, I wondered why the holocaust was played up more than other, bigger mass-murders, and no one would talk about it.
So, let's glance again. Hitler killed 70% of an entire race. Sure, he killed more Soviets than Jews, but soviet culture was not in danger of ceasing to exist. Genocide is not killing a lot of people: Genocide is killing an entire culture/race of people, no matter how big or small that is.
and the jews know that, so everytime you cricitize one, you'll be labeled an antisemite. This is how the jews are escaping with murder in Gaza and Cis-Jordania.
But Israel does not represent all Jews, or the Jewish culture. Israel is just another violent theocracy among many others. I would point to American Jews as an example of how Judaism can be a non-violent religion. And I blame America for shaping current-day Israel into a violent nation.
Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
Mailing a knife (at least within the US) isn't very difficult at all. I personally would prefer it stay that way even though there are some really screwed up people who would love to tell me what I am and am not allowed to do.
Mailing a knife hurts noone. That knife is harmless in a box being transported from one place to another.
A bomb is a different story.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that the world doesn't work according to Civics 101, sad but true. Had you studied Civics 201, Advanced Civics or, "How things actually work," you would have learned that while laws are proposed by representatives and voted on, the Executive branch since the 1940s has wielded immense unofficial but nonetheless real authority in legislation.
In the case of the Patriot Act, the Executive branch actually *wrote* the darn thing, and it was passed to sympathetic members of Congress to propose. One of the reasons that it passed was because the vote for the Patriot Act occured before most congressmen and senators had even read the law.
So while it's entirely true that the law passed because the majority in the House and Senate approved it, in many ways, particularly with the passage of the Patriot Act, Congress merely acted as a rubber stamp.
Perhaps if you did more reading on what actually happened, rather than what should have happened, you'll understand why alot of people are pissed off that what should have happened didn't.