When Should You Quit Your Job? 1245
Moe Taxes asks: "I want to hear from Slashdot readers who have quit jobs or turned down offered jobs because it was not what they wanted to do. Why did you do it? Was it ethics, ambition, pride, or disgust? And how did it turn out? Did you get to do what you wanted to do, are you still looking, or did you come back begging for another chance? I have always written software for windows, but never with Microsoft tools. I don't feel like I have enough control over the product when I use Microsoft programming environments. My company was bought recently, and is in the process of becoming a C# VisualStudio shop. I said thanks, but no thanks and left. Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay?"
Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes.
Don't ever quite (read it twice) unless you have something else in line.
Well... (Score:2, Insightful)
yes (Score:5, Insightful)
When? (Score:3, Insightful)
Need more info.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Always have another paycheck lined up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you have no use for money.
When You get Bored (Score:5, Insightful)
A great indication of when you should quit your job is when you wake up every morning and dread going into work. Its okay to wish you were doing something else, but if you wake up and always hate the idea of going into the office then it is probably a good time to find a new line of work.
What is steady? (Score:3, Insightful)
Not a Smart Move (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you a fool for quitting? In this case ... (Score:4, Insightful)
tools are tools (Score:0, Insightful)
ehem... (Score:1, Insightful)
Get another job first (Score:3, Insightful)
If you've left, and don't find other work that you enjoy doing soon, you're at risk of ending up stuck doing stuff that you feel is a waste of your skills - something like flipping burgers, answering phones, whatever. You also have an issue getting back into your field later - saying that you quit because you didn't like the tools your employer was using is a potential red flag to a future employer, and may make it impossible to return to a field you enjoy.
Good luck finding a new job!
Proper way (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, I'm sure it really sucks the direction your current job is going but unless your skills are amazingly solid or your name is Linus Torvalds, chances are you're about to have a lot of free time on your hands with no solid income for a while.
Re:Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
All that aside, the choice of programming tools strikes me as a very silly reason to leave a perfectly good job when you could have sat there getting paid to look for another one.
Depends (Score:2, Insightful)
I left my company recently, but only resigned after accepting another position.
Duh (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, especially if it was just because you hate M$. If you had stayed there long enough to learn C# and then decided it wasn't in your best long term interest that might have been something different. As it is you just lost a perfect opportunity to learn something new and expand your skill set.
Ask yourself ... (Score:1, Insightful)
Ask yourself
Personally, I would never quit a job based on the tools they wanted me to develop with. It's like an accountant saying, "We're going to change from using Peoplesoft to Great Plains? I quit, I don't like that tool.". You'd still be doing the same thing, just in a different environment.
I think there is more to this then just "I don't think I have enough control in MS Visual Studio".
You are idiotic. (Score:2, Insightful)
It's asinine to quit your job without another in line just because you wanted to be a l33t pr0gr4mm3r and not write with Microsoft tools. Staying on only would have given you experience with a language you probably don't have much practical experience with, furthering your resume and expanding your knowledge.
You could easily have stayed on and stuck it out while looking for something else. Attitudes like yours make me want to quit this profession.
You are considering the wrong data. (Score:5, Insightful)
At the end of the day code is code no matter where you wrote it. What gets us interested in getting up and going to work each day is do we like the working environment, not the coding environment.
To quit in protest of using an IDE is... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:When You get Bored (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:yes (Score:3, Insightful)
Real programmers don't care which LANGUAGE they program in, you will find they are generally extremely picky about which TOOLS they use. Just look at the vi/emacs wars.
Re:Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
I have always found good employement again (though the last time I had to spend a few months looking and I admit this has made me hesitant about doing it again). In retrospect all of those decisions were good for me, some of them amazingly so.
Dont ask Us (Score:5, Insightful)
Everybody's been saying the same goddamned thing.
"Yes you were foolish for quitting your job."
What do you want from these people? Reassurance that you've done the right thing? They don't know you. They don't know what you're capable of, and they dont know what you want to do. Only YOU know that. Would you seriously read 100 replies and go "Shit... I KNEW I shouldn't have done that." ?
Listen man. You live ONCE. You've made your choice now move on. Go try and find something that makes you happy, and preferably pays you rather well. You know what you're capable - or not capable - of, so don't sell yourself short by asking for Career advice on Slashdot. ;)
Maybe you didn't ask the right question (Score:2, Insightful)
That choice you made, you should have done it after trying C#
Re:Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
If we're going to read it twice, then at least spell the word right.
"Don't ever quit without another job lined up." Yeah, I've heard this one over the years many times myself, even though I've ignored it just as many times. Last time was from a friend who'd spent years working a job that wasn't any good for him, that was screwing up his personal life, but was more "stable" than going out and taking risks on what he really wanted to do.
About six months after he told me that line, regarding my headfirst plunge into self-employment a few years back, my friend died of cancer related to his job. He was 29 years old and it was a very nasty, ugly, painful death.
So give it a rest. Life's a lot shorter than people think, and sometimes rushing where angels fear to tread can be the best thing for a guy. In fact, sometimes it can save a life.
I don't know about that (Score:5, Insightful)
I quit due to a number of reasons. First, it became clear to me that family obligations (unusually intensive for the time) were not going to be met if I continued to work there. But additionally (why I have not reapplied) I realized that I would be continuously underemployed because I didn't play the political games the way others expected me to.
So when I returned to the US after helping my wife get her visa, I went into business for myself.
My experience:
Don't kid yourself-- it is very (!) difficult to quit to start your own business unless you have a lot of external support (I was lucky in that regard, and it is still hard).
That being said, there is no price you can pay for the feeling of satisfaction you get from having a fulfilling job or business.
So it is your choice.
Re:Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes.
Keep a Fuck You fund just for this reason, so you can walk away from the job. Depending on what you do and skill level, you can quit a job at a moments notice and work for someone else, (Or yourself).
If you are smart, you are networked, have other jobs waiting, working multiple jobs, stay in demand, you shouldnt fear switching jobs.
Unless you have your life invested in a company, loyalty stops at the paycheck, they have no problems outsourcing you if it can save them money. Treat your work with as an investment, if you are not getting your moneys worth, invest somewhere else. Your time and work is an investment.
Re:This is really extrang (Score:3, Insightful)
So, let me get this straight. You are 27 years old. And, you just received an offer at 3-times your current salary to become a PHB.
How would you play it? I'd love to make a lot of money, but if I take the Executive Manager position I'll most probably never write code againYou are crazy if you even consider staying with your old company. You are crazy if you want to remain a programmer. Programming sucks. In fact, you are crazy for asking such a question on /.
Take the Executive position. Take the money. You can always return to programming later, if you decide you hate the responsibility. Earn the money while you can.
You should quit when you have your next job.... (Score:5, Insightful)
That is, when you have the offer of employment from your new employer, and a starting date set.
I had a friend who did the "take this job and shove it" trick with what was truely a bad situation. However, it was several months before he had another job lined up, and he very nearly had to file for bankrupcy. It *did* screw his credit up for a long time, due to the amount of debt he racked up during that time.
All jobs suck - but some more than others.
So you should ask yourself, "Realistically, does this job suck worse than any new job I might get?"
Assuming the answer is "HELL YES!", then start looking for a new job - BUT DON'T LET YOUR CURRENT EMPLOYER KNOW. Make sure you tell any headhunters you work with that you don't want your current employer contacted.
Look long and well - do everything you can do to insure that your new job will suck less than your current job.
Then, when they offer you a position, set your start date no earlier than two and a half weeks into the future, get the formal (and legally binding) letter of offer and your letter of acceptance.
THEN, and ONLY then, do you go to your current boss and tender your resignation. And no matter how strong the temptation, no matter what you feel your justification is, no matter how badly you'd like to tell them off, resign in a calm, professional manner. This world is too damn small to say "First of all, you ain't no good, never been no good, you smell like old wet cheese, you pay shit
Also, when changing jobs, you are shaking your world up - so do your best to save up some emergency money before hand, and even if your new job pays 4x what you were making - act as though you were making your old salary and save the difference - at least for a year. Remember, last in, first out.
You may want to quit today - you may go home every night grinding your teeth, but USE that anger to drive your job search - remember, while your current job may suck, imagine how much MORE it will suck if you have to go crawling back in order to keep a roof over your head!
Re:This is really extrange (Score:5, Insightful)
If you really and truely want a degree, you can take night courses at a local school, or even online.
As a manager with programing experience, don't forget the people you manage where once just like you.
design your own programs on the side, to fufill your programing desires. or 'help' out the Testing and patching sections during quiet times of the year.
Now if the more expensive job required relocation that's a different story. The headache of moving, and a new job may or may not be worth the higher salary.
Re:Never Quit! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is really extrange (Score:4, Insightful)
But, you have an opportunity to make some really good scratch right now and hell, take night classes and slowly finish your degree if it's important to you.
Keep inmind though, if your current employer is going to pay for your school, that could be the same as a huge pay raise. Follow your heart but money talks and if you're going to be making that much more, the money is screaming at you.
You can still program on OSS projects, etc. Now your programming becomes a hobby and you can afford a really nice chair to sit in at home.
I'd take the money, considering it seems like a stable position.
Re:A fool? Maybe. (Score:4, Insightful)
I disagree. It is always easier to get a job if you are working. Employers just feel better about hiring you if you are working. If they think you will quit without having a backup job, then they think it will be easier for you to quit them. Also there is a sense of accomplishment in "stealing" a good employee from another company.
That said, I want to respond to the original question. I have turned down a lot of jobs in my life. I have always done it for the same reason, because I liked what I was doing. I have said for years, "If I did not like what I do, I would do something else."
I just recently changed jobs. I did it for job satisfaction. I switched to a job where I feel I am better respected. I get paid more. There are perks like travel and training that I did not have at the old job. I have been telling everyone, "This is the job I have worked towards for the last ten years."
Your never a fool if.. (Score:3, Insightful)
my experience (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Better have something inline (Score:2, Insightful)
Look at people who are successful. Look long term. (Score:4, Insightful)
Look at people who you consider successful. How many of them chose to remain at a boring job for a long time?
Now, look at your current workplace. Can you see yourself being there in 3-5 years?
What do you want to do when you are 40? What are your long term goals? Will your current job help you to reach your goals?
However, staying in your current job will buy you time, if you can put up with the boredom for a short time. If you stay employyed, you can be more relaxed in your job search, and not be forced to take a new job that you will hate. Obviously, it will be harder to find time to look for a job if you stay employeed, but you can try to make time.
Plus, many potential employeers will take you more seriously when you already have a job.
If you ARE stuck at a job, then just make sure you have a good life outside of work. If you hate your job, and you hate your non-work life; it is time to reevaluate your situation.
RE: Parent post is a bit too utopian, IMHO.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree that life is too short, and there's ultimately no real point to spending most of it doing work you loathe.
But there's a flip-side to this. Job searches and the uncertainty of when you'll be able to get the bills paid can be more stressful than a job you don't particularly like.
Furthermore, it's quite possible to discover something you truly enjoy doing on your own terms and conditions, which doesn't ever seem to really translate into a "job you enjoy" when working for someone else. For example, I've always had an interest and enjoyment of music - and used to be told I had a "pleasant reading voice" and the like. Therefore, I had an idea that I'd enjoy becoming a radio DJ. Know what? After going to college and taking a few courses towards this goal - I realized there was no way I'd ever like it! The problem? Practically nobody in the commercial radio business is willing to turn over control to a DJ. The DJ is basically a "robot", playing the music pre-designated in set lists, and required to only speak for X number of seconds or minutes each hour, at pre-designated time slots in the program. That's not at all what I envisioned would make being a DJ fun!
All of that being said, I think there's nothing at all to be ashamed of to say "Look, I'm not comfortable writing your software using *this* set of tools (or for *this* platform)." Only you can really make that judgement call. To me, it's rather like being a carpenter, and suddenly being told "We're taking away your entire toolbox, because our business partnered up with Black & Decker. You can only use Black & Decker saws, drills, hand tools, etc. from here on out. Here's your new set of tools, and if you need ones they don't make - you just have to do without! Enjoy!" Some people might get by fine under those conditions, but it surely wouldn't do for every carpenter out there.
Re:Be A Whore (Score:3, Insightful)
cannot buy hapiness... but lack of money can sure
bring a lot of misery. I'll still pick a lower
paying job that I love over a sucky job that pays
more, but only if the job I love still brings in
enough to pay the bills.
Of course as an independent consultant I sometimes
bend my own rule. I'll take a short term sucky
job for a high enough rate if it means I can take a
really long vacation before accepting the next
consulting gig. For me, money is not about buying
more toys... it is about affording the free time
to play with the toys.
Later,
Thad
Re:This is really extrange (Score:2, Insightful)
You're having second thoughts, obviously (Score:1, Insightful)
Your next job interview... (Score:1, Insightful)
Interviewee: "I quit because I didn't like the development tools."
Interviewer: "Thanks for your time. NEXT!"
Yes, you shouldn't have quit (Score:2, Insightful)
I did this. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:This is really extrange (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
I have always found good employement again (though the last time I had to spend a few months looking and I admit this has made me hesitant about doing it again). In retrospect all of those decisions were good for me, some of them amazingly so.
It's amazing that this is not modded higher. If you are single, and especially if you are single and young you should immediately quit a job that sucks. If you can muster a pleasant personality and view life's obstacles as challenges that you can and will overcome, you will always land on your feet. Do anything that feels right. Follow your bliss. This is the time in your life when these things are possible.
I've had 18 jobs in 30 years (Score:5, Insightful)
The happiest outcomes seem to stem from leaving a large, stale, hide-bound bureaucratic corporation [defense contractor in my case] for a raw startup with maybe 1st round funding...the new situation should be fluid and even if it is risky, it can be absolutely engaging and require all the energy and smarts you possess. Unless you are a weak performer, you will usually not wait too long between jobs and in the end, the jobs you will be fondest off will be the ones that needed you the most and let you be the best programmer you were capable of being. This is, of course, MHO: your personality and comfort level in uncertain circumstances is a huge part of the decision.
I should temper this idealism a bit. A startup either grows up and each programmer's role shrinks, or it fails and you go looking again. That optimum state of programmerly grace is fleeting yet you don't want to be a start-up junky. A good rule of thumb [I've heard it from others who have worked in the same ways at the same companies as I] is about 3 years at a start up. You are either rich by then or have settled into some role with depleted novelty and challenges...or you are suddenly cleaning the pizza boxes and coke cans out of your cube and using the pink slip to book mark where you left off in your latest programming manual. It is no shame and in some quarters a sign of your value that you went down with the ship. YMMV but JUMP anyway 'cause life is short.
Re:Better have something inline (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Better have something inline (Score:3, Insightful)
You sound like my dad. Who, incidentally, despite all his sage and practical advice on life, is now dying alone in a house full of the useless junk he spent his life acquiring.
you are a fool (Score:2, Insightful)
Duh. (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously your moral standards are at issue here, and everyone has their own moral standards.
Would you be a prostitute? A pimp? Con man? Work at Microsoft? Work for Wal Mart? Be a lawyer? Defense attorney? Personal injury? Prosecution? Cop? Surgeon? Social worker?
Who you work for, what work you have to do, who you have to work with... these are all fundamental questions that every person in the freaking world has to ask themselves every time they look for work, and every day they go to work. The fact that you are a programmer has absolutely zero fucking relevance, except with regards to the current IT industry job market. And you know what? Special delivery from Obvious Express: IT SUCKS. Of course, with motivation, luck, (perhaps a bit of nepotism) and an excellent resume you can get a job in any big city. DUH!
Welcome to Ethics 101 and Job Finding 101, where your host is Slashdot and we can discuss sophomoric morality questions and how the current job market in IT sucks!
Later today: Does God exist? What OS would He use?
Are you a fool? (Score:3, Insightful)
But honestly, only you can answer this.
- Did you have another job lined up before leaving?
- Are you living in a location where there are plenty of jobs where you'll be happy, and you are able to get?
- Are you able to get by comfortably until you find a new job, and if not, was it worth leaving before finding a new job?
- If you company was bought out, would you be switching to Visual Studio right away, or would you have been able to continue doing what you were doing before (until you found a new job)?
Sometimes, we have to do things that we don't like (for example, I'm writing help files, but it's paying the bills, and I'm getting by quite easily, but until I can find a job that pays as good or more than this, and where my experience would better be served, I'll continue to do the jobs that no one else wants)
Re:Better have something inline (Score:3, Insightful)
So barring an obligation to support someone else, I'd say it's a good thing he quit. Otherwise sitting in the office for years and feeling like you're wasting most of your waking time without a strong understanding why ("because you need to have a job") can be quite damaging.
Re:Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
But if the only reason the poster can be bothered to include is that they're moving to C# and visual studio...well, that's just unconvincing to me. I work for a Linux shop. We use Red Hat. Personally, I don't like Red Hat, I distinctly prefer Gentoo. Do I make a big deal of that at work? No. Would I make a big deal of it if we moved to doing more Windows work? Or even 100% Windows?
NO.
It's just an operating system.
Would I start looking for a new job?
YES.
And that, really, is what this guy should have done, unless there's a lot he isn't telling us.
Quitting a good job because of a dislike of the software platform choices that are made above your level isn't good management of your CAREER. Management of your career is a big portion of what separates the long-term successes from the long-term failures, IMHO.
Re:This is really extrange (Score:5, Insightful)
Case in point, as a manager with people under you, you'll have to rate them, listen to them, and be responsible to make them play nicely together. Are you stong with social interaction? Do you listen well? Do people respect you and see you as a leader?
The "Peter Principle" says good people get promoted to their "level of incompetence". Make sure that never applies to you, because you'll be miserable and that will affect the people you manage as well as your new set of co-workers.
Money isn't everything. One serious illness caused by stress can wipe it all out faster than the IRS.
Good luck in whatever you decide!
Re:This is really extrange (Score:5, Insightful)
By that I mean people who become executives and mid- and upper level managers are people who should love the political/people stuff as much as a programmer loves technology.
Think about mid to senior management as the equivalent of mid to senior level developers -- how much time and energy have they spent working on the skills that matter in a political, people-everything environment? Just as much as the developers did in their coding and technical stuff, if not more. And they're just as motivated as well.
Be sure that you're comfortable in making a jump to that kind of peer group!
Re:This is really extrange (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen this in other places since, people in jobs that are no-win situations, which literally drive them to drink. The boss or the environment just has some toxic psychological effect, and the worst part is that it's hard for the person to tell if its them or the job until some time afterwards. This usually happens when someone higher up doesn't actually want the job to be done (and ensures that it can't be, while the person trying to do it takes the blame,) or when the employee's immediate supervisor is scapegoating the person to make themselves look better. In both cases, the real problem is hidden, because the manager creating the problem always does so covertly. This is a helluva lot more common in large organisations (private or public) than you might think.
But this is a whole different ballgame than just personal tool preferences--these kinds of situations can trash your career or sanity.
Why I quit my job (Score:3, Insightful)
It was a lucrative job that involved a high level of certification with a vendor. I got to go to different job sites every other week or so, learn the latest technologies, and get free training. In the beginning it seemed like the culmination of several years or training.
The entire time I had the job, I didn't feel like I belonged there. I found journals of mine from two years ago, and I'd said then that I didn't know if I would be there in six months. I could do the technical part ok. I just didn't have the personality to do the job. I didn't like BS'ing the customer into purchasing a solution when I couldn't prove that the solution would work because I had never done that before. When a recent project involved over $175,000 in labor and materials, and the number of things of unknowns that would have ruined the project ran over a page long, I knew I didn't have it in me to keep doing this.
I used to read 300-page books about my vendor's products while I was *on vacation*. The stuff just fascinated me. Now I don't read it at all anymore. Maybe one day I'll be back, but that day isn't today.
Plus, the job helped stress out my marriage, and when a computer guy tries to force "ones and zeroes" thinking on a liberal arts creative singer, well things go wrong.
The main logistical issue is to make sure that you will have enough money to ride out an extended time while unemployed. You may have to consider cancelling recurring services, such as digital cable, or certain long-distance plans. You might have to consider that you may have to move back in with family, or somehow signing up for state assistance.
The rule for success (I forget who say it first): Figure out what price you would pay for what you want, and then pay that price. If you've got the money, then leaving a job because the color of the carpet disagrees with your flesh tones is a possibility. If the money isn't there, then learning what goes into a Taco Bell Chalupa may be in your future.
Ultimately, the only time that you will not have any problems is when you're dead. Part of realizing that I was a "grown up" was seeing that there are always more problems, and that waiting for those to go away before you become happy will never work.
Happiness is not the absence of problems. Happiness is what you have to bring to your problems in order to improve your life.
P.S. I have a job possibility on the horizon with a 40% pay cut. But it is a great work environment, and I have money stashed away. I can reduce my lifestyle, now that I know that I am not what I own.
Vegas, baby (Score:2, Insightful)
I left a decent IT support position back in 1998 as they were moving away from VMS and standardizing on NT. I went back to school to finish my BSECE degree, and now I do chip design -- I make almost twice as much money and I've worked on two fantastically groundbreaking microprocessors in the last four years.
Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. The down side? Student Loans.
Re:This is really extrange (Score:2, Insightful)
The question is, what is more important to you. The money and position, with all the crap that goes with that (politics, etc) or a more interesting and relaxing job with oportunity to achieve some goals' outside the job.
I left a company where oportunity was there to play the game and move up for a position with no mobility but a 9-5 schedule and not so stressful office life. I am much happier (more so since I asked for a got a raise).
Money is important, your health and happiness more so.
As far as degrees, well, one of the smartest programmers I know and a very successful person (started his own company, now in a high ranking senior technical position at a big tech company) doesn't have his Bachelor's degree. You might look on paper and see that missing, but his job experience and sheer inteligence and knowledge make people not care about education in the first few minutes.
Re:Better have something inline (Score:3, Insightful)
When leaving without something else is right (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Better have something inline (Score:2, Insightful)
New technology goes in, old workers kicked out (Score:3, Insightful)
Companies don't seem to retrain people, they just fire them and hire ones that are already at the required level of proficiency in whatever tool/environment/software/etc the company falls in love with next.
If a UNIX using company goes M$, the UNIX people will almost always get laid off - they won't be given the option of trying to adapt. The company will want "fresh blood" and people who don't need to be retrained, and who are already ready to perform 100% from the get go, and people who are "able to be made naturally to think in the new programming paradigm, etc".
This also gives them an excuse to fire the older workers without getting caught for age discrimination and hire younger, lower paid, less senior, easily moldable, replacements.
Arrange your life to make quitting simple (Score:1, Insightful)
I'd planned my life to make this possible: I'd paid off my debts as soon as I could and didn't try to live some big lifestyle or have a bunch of kids.
The same planning that let my wife transition into a job that was less money (at the time, not now) now let me do the same thing.
The more crap you buy, the more debt you incur, the more locked you are to the hamster wheel. The danger, of course, is self-medicating your loathing of your job by spending a lot of money on gadgets and vacations that "you deserve"... money that could pay off your debts and free you of the whole pain in the ass in the first place.
Re:This is really extrange (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Duh (Score:3, Insightful)
If you had stayed there long enough to learn C#
Stayed long enough to learn C#? That's being an optimist. If he didn't already know C# do you think the company would have trained him or even let him learn on his own when they could just fire him and hire someone that already knows it?
See this post: http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=140416&ci
Re:Dear Slashdot, (Score:2, Insightful)
Typical clueless slashbot, like there's any fundemantal difference between the IDE's other than one is from MSFT and the other is OSS.
Exactly what "control" does VS.Net take away from the developer? Pure "I hate MS" idiocy. I code all day at work in VS.Net, and take the same project home and work on it in #Develop.
Or maybe he just doesn't like C#, because it's "MS" stuff. Maybe he prefers Java - which doesn't let you do anything or use any widget sets that aren't Sun Approved (tm).
Maybe he thinks we still do app-level programming in C. Maybe like the aging "genious programmers" in my office, he's completely dumbfounded by OO programming. (Wahhhh vb6 class modules are hard me no understand)
Sounds like he quit just before he could be fired for incompetence.
I hope the trend continues, and the industry slowly purges itself of people who make tech decisions based on personal philosophy instead of techincal merit.
Sounds like his company made a wise choice to settle on
Re:This is really extrange (Score:3, Insightful)
Frankly, I'd have to say do the higher paying job, especially if the salary for it is in the six figure range. Work it for a few years and see how it works out. Bank the money, so you have it to fall back on if you decide to switch back to a programming job, or start something on your own. Don't do anything silly like buying an expensive car or house that lands you with expensive payments; then you'll actually need that high paying job, and lose your ability to walk away. Three years at that new job gets you the same financial rewards that eight years at your current job will bring. That is worth taking a risk for, especially if the job isn't that bad. Even if you only work it for a year, you're financially more than two years ahead of where you would have been.
You can always walk out with a big green parachute, and find yourself work later with that kind of resume. It's been my experience that most intelligent people prefer experience to a fresh degree. Apprenticeship is still the best way to learn any trade.
If you stay on good terms with your current employer, they may take you back if you decide you want to return. Our company has hired back plenty of old talent that left on good terms when they came around looking for work, because they are a known asset, more reliable than a fresh hire. This really depends on your company's management; not all of them are this open minded. If they show loyalty to employees, they'd probably go for it.
Re:This is really extrange (Score:2, Insightful)
This is just me personally. I don't like being a manager. I like being up to my eyebrows in lines of code and since I'm spending only a few hours per week doing what I like, and days of my week doing what I don't, I'd've opted for the lower number of dollars any day.
Good luck with it either way.
Re:You should quit when you have your next job.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Once you have money coming in, you should be saving every cent you can. If there are unexpected problems, you can handle them. If not, you get to retire earlier and more comfortably.
I was lucky enough to have parents that explained all this to me when I was a kid. By the time I had my first "real job" I had enough saved that I could have gone almost a year without work. At age 39, I could go at least 8.
Don't spend your hard earned money on stupid crap you don't need.
DD
Re:This is really extrange (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a really smooth, calm, sane work environment. It would literally take someone offering me more than double my current salary to get me to leave, because I'm reasonably sure this will be the best job I ever have, in terms of working environment.
I think that idea of 'only young people make good programmers' has passed its time. The field has become too mature for an illusion like that to continue any longer. Good programmers are good programmers, and that's all there is to it. If you're good, you're all set.
Re:This is really extrange (Score:1, Insightful)
If the salary is nearly 3x what you're making now, and you are more than scraping by now, then for every year in this new job, you should be able to save ~2X what you need to live.
Ask your parents what they think of that.
A few years would let you quit work and finish college fulltime, work on an MBA or get a graduate degree. Or a nice nest-egg to get you through lean times. Or hike the AT.
For me (unmarried), every year I work will let me retire a year earlier. You would probably be in the same position, except you're 13 years younger. Want to retire at 45?
Don't bet on being able to survive as a coder for the rest of your life. The writing is on the wall for anyone who isn't within one or two degrees of the customer.
Am I a fool..... (Score:2, Insightful)
My wife and I took a HUGE hit int the financial areas, my pay was significantly less and she (also in the IT field) had to do the job search once we arrived at our current location. Now she's having a difficult time with job satisfaction. Quite honestly, if the company isn't "dirty" in the way it dealed with it's vendors and customers (and finances), then the company treats Tech Support like the "Devil's Spawn", with hatred and contempt.
I guess what I'm trying to tell you is that, only you can weight the pros and cons of leaving a company for any reason, don't listen to what other's have to tell you (unless you ask them). As long as you can keep your head above water financially, taking into account life style changes, then do what every you fel the need to do. I went from a nice paying software develpment company in the SF Bay area making tons of contacts "networking" in other companies (IT and other), to moving to San Diego, driving small boats real fast, shooting weapons and blowing things up ( as well as going to war
Good luck.
Re:This is really extrange (Score:3, Insightful)
You really start hitting your stride as a developer after a decade or two ... because by then you've seen and tried so many different ways to solve so many different problems that it actually becomes fun again.
Oh - BTW - Take the money.
I turned down two opportunities. (Score:1, Insightful)
The other one was for a client in NJ. I was contacted by an Indian firm and I caught them being dishonest with me. Not once, but twice! There must have been five or six phone calls to me from different levels of management asking why that was a problem... after all it's "Just Business". I told them that "I don't do business that way". I have been looking for a gig ever since.
I would rather be poor and still have my principles than be a rich liar.
Just my $0.02.
Cheers!
Re:Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course the tidbit about Microsoft, that's not what are going to tell your next boss. That's for your friends at the the pub, or for Slashdot. With your next boss, use more "professional" sounding reasons: lack of perspective, lack of autonomy, job below your capacities and all that vague bull.
A couple of years ago, I was in a similar kind of situation, and I made sure not to even mention the word "Linux" in the hiring interview of my new job. It was only when my new boss started on that subject that we exchanged a few words about it. Of course, once on the new job, I exercised less restraint about it (but in hindsight: I probably should have...)
Re:Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
I have only once in my life quit a job without having another one lined up. In that case I was completely burned out on an industry that I had worked in for years, I wanted to get into a completely different line of work, I wanted to live in a different city, and I had several months of salary in the bank. The first three months were great because I had no responsibility and plenty of money to pay the bills. The next three months were awful because I was broke and had to live with my relatives.
Re:This is really extrange (Score:3, Insightful)
If you've got the social skills necessary to make new friends easily*, or the move won't automatically mean your friends are no longer accessable, it's worth considering moving for a significant increase in compensation.
I moved for a job once. Nearly accross the continent (North America & East-West axis). Not being a terribly gregarious person, and as indiosyncratic and paranoid as I am, it was miserable. It takes me at a long time to get to know anyone outside of the people I already know. It took about about 4 and a half months to get the first person to the preliminary friend stage.
*or are a sociopath and don't need friends
To quote Catcher in the Rye: (Score:1, Insightful)
Don't be stupid and quit a job over a stupid operating system or programming language. That is immature. You got brainwashed into a religious cause, and the only person who got screwed is you, because now you are out of a job. No one else cares. C# will continue to be used, and no one is worse off except for yourself.
Next time, be the mature man, not the immature man.
Re:Better have something inline (Score:2, Insightful)
Mercenary or Artist? (Score:5, Insightful)
The short answer is: yes, you are.
Given the crappy state of the industry as it is right now, quitting a high paying job over a (minor?) technology direction change is probably not a very bright idea. It sounds even worse if you factor in your apparent lack of experience with the new environment - you don't even stick around long enough to give it a try, right?
That being said, I can understand your choice. I don't particularly like the MS tools style, always have been more of a Borland type. But it goes deeper than this:
There are really two types of developers, namely the mercenaries and the artists. Most people are mercenaries. They just come to work, and as long as things are not absolutely terrible, they just do exactly what was specified. Then, after 8 hours, they pack up and leave their workplace to do whatever their real interests are. If you're a mercenary, it's totally stupid for you to quit over a tools issue like this.
The Artists, on the other hand, are people who shape the projects they implement. They are the ones with the vision, the ones who invest their soul into the product. If you're an artist, commands from management, like a change in technology or tools, can have a huge impact. Such a change can make your environment hostile, especially if the new direction conflicts with your ideals. Frankly, you don't sound like an artist, but if you are one, you have to quit over this and start over somewhere new where management shares your values and ideals.
Most companies really frown on the artist thing. They'd rather hire 5 mercenaries than 1 artist. Artists are difficult to manage traditionally, and they impose a constant danger of doing things that run contrary to the pointy-haired-boss school of business.
Re:Duh (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Better have something inline (Score:3, Insightful)
Ah, but see, go back and read what the parent said. I was commenting on the "don't ever quit unless" attitude; that's the extreme one. There are plenty of reasons to quit one job before you've found the next - health, ethics, career decisions, family, personal fulfillment. A guy shouldn't have to be at death's door before he thinks that maybe it'd have been a better idea just to go do something else.
Sometimes you have a cushion, sometimes you don't. Depends on the circumstances. But playing the "never, ever" game is just an excuse to avoid honestly appraising the situation. If the parent had simply said, "always look hard before you leap", I'd have no problem agreeing with that, but that's not what he said.
Personally, I wouldn't run off in a huff just because my employer changed my toys. But I strongly doubt that we're getting the full story here. I think there's considerable more involved going on in this saga.
(And, by the way: the aforementioned criminal employer was the man's own father.)
Re:Better have something inline (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is really extrange (Score:2, Insightful)
Some people wait for many years before having an opportunity like that open up for them.
I turned down a similar offer once and it took me almost 15 years before another chance like it came back around.
Don't be a fool. You can always write code.
Re:Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
The industry is NEVER as big as people think.
Re:Better have something inline (Score:3, Insightful)
Some would call that foresight or responsibility, not cowardice.
It's time to quit when it FEELS like it. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Pleasant Side Effect (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Better have something inline (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I just turned one down last week... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Always have another paycheck lined up... (Score:3, Insightful)
I've gotten into many positions throughout my life so far where the only way I'd be able to survive would be to quit my job and pray for better odds. You can't get a better job when you're working 12-16 hour days with no breaks or holidays and still cannot afford to feed yourself or pay rent. Remedy?
Costs vs Benefits
you don't own me and i quit! (Score:1, Insightful)
i don't make a lot of money, but i love my life, i love what i would do and i wouldn't change a thing... you have to live with yourself and you only get one chance to live your life... clich'e due to the truth.
whatever you're doing... if you can't stand it. get out.. thats no way to live.
-grover
I quit my job (Score:2, Insightful)
I was working on the rail road all the live long day, and quite literally. Going to work 3 times every two days and having only 4 hours of sleep between jobs if I was lucky. The unions, politics between the workers and manangement, and the hours turned me into a fat miserable person, till I quit.
I didn't have anything lined up when I gave them my notice. I am currently living off of student loans and handouts while trying to pay for my brand new vehicle and college.
I was able to land a decent job at the local oil company (beats McD's) as a part time IT person. Making decent pay, but nothing like I did when on the railroad.
My recommendation is to find a better job. Have something lined up before hand. The economy is tight and you might not be able to find a better job and good luck!
Re:Pleasant Side Effect (Score:4, Insightful)
Did you complain to management or to the police? Assault with a deadly weapon isn't something the police usually take lightly.
Re:Have you ever walked out of an interview (Score:3, Insightful)
I was at a well-known software shop. A senior tech lead tried to put me through my paces: implement lookup for a singly-linked list, then insert, then delete, etc. I thought maybe it was just a warmup, but he kept asking more CS1-ish algorithms and coding questions. Then the next guy continued on the same way, and it went on all day. After an hour or two I felt no urge to work there. After all, it did say clearly on my resume that my previous jobs were teaching the graduate-level course in data structures and algorithms at a well-known university and hacking compilers (for a private company). If I'd been a little more cocky instead of trying to be polite, I could have told them to simply look up the answers to most of the questions in my on-line lecture notes or assignment solution sets...
Maybe it was a test of my patience. If so, I failed.
Fool? No. (Score:3, Insightful)
No fool are you. Do what you believe in and what you enjoy. Life is too short for any other way.
Re:Pleasant Side Effect (Score:3, Insightful)
If so then it worked.
If not, shake the Magic 8-ball and try again.
Think carefully (Score:2, Insightful)
Almost 4 years later, I have to say that I've given it my best shot, and the money is definitely great, but the job itself is leaching my soul away and I've started looking for something else. The work isn't actually bad, other people there love it, but it's just not a good fit for my personality / abilities. It got to where every day I had to basically talk myself into actually going to work, every work day was long and depressing, and I was always counting the days til the weekend which I never did before.
So I'm looking for something in development again, and getting used to the idea of living on about half my current salary (hopefully!) For me at least, I have to say the money was nice in and of itself, but not worth the stress and angst.
Re:Better have something inline (Score:5, Insightful)
how cheaply can you live? (Score:3, Insightful)
From my perspective, there is plenty to make life sweet, purposeful, and meaningful without bringing in big money.. things like the public library, a directional wifi antenna
Looking at the last 1000 years, someone living in a relatively simply way in the modern west, and working part time still has options for living far beyond what most of humankind felt pretty happy with during most of that time. To put it another way, how would you feel towards the person of the future who essentially asked 'Should I quit my job? I'd be giving up my 5000 square foot home, I'd have to learn to use a kitchen, and start wearing clothes more than once, so I guess that's not really an option. I better have another job lined up first.'?..
Re:yes (Score:3, Insightful)
My boss didn't value anything he didn't understand, even if it saved a lot of time for everyone else. Worst was when he'd bitch about our speed in an area he'd crippled us in! Bah!
Never live from paycheck to paycheck... (Score:3, Insightful)
The same can be true even if you have a good job.
Re:Working till 2:AM tends NOT to be rewarded (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, many bosses aren't even around to notice the extra effort you are putting in to your job, since they went home long ago. Some will mistake detication for free productivity - and just keep handing you enough work to make sure you keep eating lunch and dinner at your desk, and forfit a personal life.
Instead, I suggest that it is EVERY employee's responsibility to maintain an active communication stream (even PR) with his boss, and co-workers. Document what you do. Make the documentation readily available/obvious. Send an UN-solicited status report email to your boss at LEAST once per month, twice is better. The fact that the boss got something extra that was NOT asked for should make it stand out, and instantly suspect -but this is actually for YOUR benefit, not just the boss. Include some form of *question* about your work in the email, asking how to procede, or priorities, whatever... Because of that question, the boss has to at least acknowlege that you sent the message, and s/he read it. If you don't get a reply, mention it in the hall or on the phone a day later, when you are talking about something else. After a few of these, the boss figures you are involving them in the decision process - and your subsequent emails DO get read with a little more detail - in case there were other questions.
Include a simple list of current tasks, and recent accomplishments. Including priority expected hours, requirements, problems, deliverables. If the boss wants to change the priority, OK- if not, then they have implied agreement with your current plan of action, in writing, which reduces disputes later.
BE productive, but don't be taken for granted.
Bummer- but that's life, (and they werent paying for late hours anyway, were they...)
In fact, make it a firm policy to finish what you are working on 10 min before the end of your day, spend 5 min documenting things, 5 min to tidy up or pack your stuff, and then cheerfully LEAVE! (with the unspoken implication that you have already planned things after work)
Now that you have THAT working schedule in place- the boss has to specificly ASK you to work late, and perhaps even pre-schedule, since you may have other plans right after work. If the boss ASKs you to put in the extra hours, then it's no longer free volunteer labor, and you might expect to be paid too... or at least have comp-hours added for time off later. (well, you can hope)
Now- to make this work requires some personal DICIPLINE. Make the job hours PRODUCTIVE, not just THERE for nine hours.
Time management is KEY, visibility helps, deliverables rule.
Re:This is really extrange (Score:2, Insightful)