Understanding (and Avoiding) Software Patents? 72
An anonymous reader asks: "I'd like to write some Free backup software, but this area is mined with patents. I downloaded one and tried to understand it, but the 'claims' section (arguably the most important part) is made up of utterly incomprehensible patentese, and I can't afford to hire a patent attorney to help me understand it. Are there any free or cheap ways to learn enough about patents to understand them, so I can figure out exactly what is patented and therefore avoid it?"
"How different does my software have to be in order to be non-infringing? The patent I tried to understand is Dantz's 5,150,473. Many, including Slashdot readers, have said what this patent covers, but from reading the patent itself, I would never have guessed. Also, there are lots of other patents to understand and avoid, so I'm looking for general information on how I can unravel it all into language I can understand."
understanding doesn't help. (Score:4, Insightful)
it's impossible for you to learn of all the patents that you might have to deal with.
the solution? just write the fsckin software, if someone complains then take it out.
Re:understanding doesn't help. (Score:3, Insightful)
A lone person simply cannot handle this task so you are better off just writing it and then if anybody comes after you (and you are actually infringing...not just being chased away), you either fold or find another solution such as letting the EFF or somebody use your situation as a poster child for patent reform.
Re:understanding doesn't help. (Score:1)
Re:understanding doesn't help. (Score:2)
And of course, bankruptcy might not discharge debts arising from patent infringement suits.
Re:understanding doesn't help. (Score:3, Insightful)
Why not "read and avoid?" The lawyer didn't say, but I'd guess that it's hopeless. I was once named as a "co-inventor" and yet couldn't recognize the invention in the patent write-up which came back from the lawyers.
Re: understanding doesn't help. (Score:1)
Well, more correctly, if you're ever accused of infringement, awareness of the contents of the patent will greatly increase your damages. I've also heard this, from several different lawyers, including lawyers who were expert in US patent law. It certainly seems to be
Re: understanding doesn't help. (Score:2, Informative)
Of course the easiest way to avoid willfully infringing any patents is to not know of any in the first place. But this will fall apart the first time you get a cease and desist letter.
The best way to know you aren't going to get nicked for crazy damages if you are fo
Re:understanding doesn't help. (Score:4, Informative)
It isn't so much "ignorance of the law" that provides some protection, but the ability to demonstrate that you were ignorant of the patented invention, because if they can show that you read the patent, that would imply that you ripped off the idea from it.
But if you haven't ever looked at it, you can make your alleged infringement look accidental, which might (in theory) even strike down the patent, by showing that it was obvious to someone familiar with the state of the craft.
Re:understanding doesn't help. (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, I think a good improvement for the patent system would go like this:
1. Every patent application is kept secret for a certain period of time (the same time for every patent in a particular field).
2. At the end of that period, the patent is either issued or rejected.
3. If someone else invents the same thing within the secrecy period, it is evidance that the subject of the patent application is obvious
Re:understanding doesn't help. (Score:2)
Re:understanding doesn't help. (Score:2)
That's easy enough to solve. Just make the length of the patent a multiple of the secrecy period. (I'd probably pick a factor of 4-10.) Thus, the applicant gets to decide how long to risk keeping it secret, and the more he's confident that it's original, the longer he can keep the patent. There
Nobody's going to sue you (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Nobody's going to sue you (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Nobody's going to sue you (Score:2)
Re:Nobody's going to sue you (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Nobody's going to sue you (Score:4, Insightful)
The thing is that patents don't suck[...] Any other system would simply make inventors bear the cost of research and then a producer could swoop in for the profit.
I've heard this argument before, but it doesn't sit well with me. How can someone come and just "swoop in for the profit"? What do you think software development is? It's not like taking someone else's photo collection and just using it.
Even if I got access (legally!) to the complete source code for any successful commercial software product out there, I couldn't just cash in on it. I'd still have some investing of my own to do. I'd have to pay programmers to make a viable product out of it, I'd have to handle distribution and support. Even so, it would be just a clone. If I wanted to get the edge on it I'd have to invest some creativity and implement some additional features at the very least. Not to mention preventing the product from becoming obsolete, which could mean anything from adding new features periodically to catching up with other technologies (either hardware or software).
Add copyright to the equation and enforce it, and it means I cannot use the code verbatim anymore, even if I know all the great ideas and have the previous code layed out for me. I have to get programmers to reimplement it.
So "cashing in" on somebody's else's work is not so easy as it seems, not in software world. Copyright IMO is the best compromise between allowing freedom of inovation and protection of rights. Patents take this to a whole new level of complication, with emphasis not on "protect the original author" but on "award someone a monopoly on (often) arbitrary basis".
Re:Nobody's going to sue you (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Nobody's going to sue you (Score:2)
Don't go looking for trouble (Score:3, Insightful)
If you never looked, on the other hand, you just didn't know about it and may have violated someone's patent as a result.
Further, you'll only be subject to serious trouble on the patent front if you're wildly successful (i.e. harming the patent holder's market share). In that case, there ought to be enough interested parties with money to actually handle the challenge.
I am not a lawyer, but I've talked to a few on this exact subject with the exact same question.
Regards,
Ross
You got some bad legal advice (Score:1, Insightful)
IAAL and I can tell you that in tort law, ignorance is not a viable defense. This is basic tort law and any lawyer who passed bar should know this.
Re:You got some bad legal advice (Score:1)
And, ya see, that's where we get into the problem...
Re:You got some bad legal advice (Score:2)
Re:You got some bad legal advice (Score:3, Insightful)
> IAAL
Yeah, well, when even lawyers have trouble understanding the ins and outs of patent law, maybe it's time to do something serious about it, eh?
Re:You got some bad legal advice (Score:1)
I note the previous poster didn't say he was a patent lawyer. Those are an especially weird breed. Generally failed engineers who were argumentative enough and had high enough alcohol tolerance to make it though law school.
Treble damages (Score:5, Insightful)
In addition to there simply being too much to read, in the US, if it can be shown that you knowingly infringed a patent, the amount of damages you can be liable for is trebled (x3).
You're much safer in your ignorance.
Re:Treble damages (Score:1)
Um what? (Score:1, Insightful)
ObLinus quote (Score:3, Funny)
Do what Linus does: don't read patents.
"Technical people are better off not looking at patents. If you don't know what they cover and where they are, you won't be knowingly infringing on them. If somebody sues you, you change the algorithm or you just hire a hit-man to whack the stupid git."
Translation of Patents into English (Score:5, Insightful)
From your example: "The archive format includes the transfer of data to an archive media member, which archive media member can alternatively be addressable or sequential memory and can be recordable in either a rewriteable or right [sic] once manner."
Glossary: Archive media member - a tape or disk. (This is backed up by the fact that these may be sequential or "addressable" (i.e. random access)).
So, in other words, "The archives are stored on tapes or disks, which may be rewritable or write-once."
This is, of course, a tedious and laborious process. (Just imagine, however, being a patent lawyer and having to actually write this stuff for a living.)
Note well that, if the CIID passes, us software developers in Europe are going to have to learn to do this much more often. Here's an obligatory link to the FFII [ffii.org] for the benefit of anyone who's been on Mars for the last 6 months.
OK, here's an idea. How about an open directory of patent translations?
Once you've translated a patent into English, you would upload it to the directory for others to use. They would be available under something like a creative commons license, with a feedback/rating system, standard disclaimers that original legalese has priority over the translation (of course), and that translations are supplied for convenience only.
The web interface could optionally display the original and the translation side-by-side, aligned by paragraphs, so you can easily cross-check. There should be a simple way to post/suggest corrections.
NOTE: This posting consitutes prior art on this concept. You may not patent it!
ASIDE: The method described for translation is basically the same as that described by Richard Feynman for dealing with obtuse english. Here's a quote:
"There was a sociologist who had written a paper for us all to read - something he had written ahead of time. I started to read the damn thing, and my eyes were coming out: I couldn't make head nor tail or it! I figured it was because I hadn't read any of the books on that list. I had this uneasy feeling of "I'm not adequate," until I finally said to myself, "I'm gonna stop, and read one sentence slowly, so I can figure out what the hell it means.
So I stopped - at random - and read the next sentence very carefully. I can't remember it precisely, but it was very close to this: "The invidivual member of the social community often received his information via visual, symbolic channels." I went back and forth over it, and translated. You know what it means? "People Read."
(From "Is Electricity Fire?" in "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman".)
Re:Translation of Patents into English (Score:1)
I'm not saying it's not a good idea, though, just that it would have to be sufficiently disclaimered.
Re:Translation of Patents into English (Score:2)
I don't get it, if developers in the US who already have these laws don't do this, what makes you think developers in Europe will have to?
Translation of Patents ... copyright infringement (Score:2)
1) You might be infringing crown copyright (or equivalent in your jurisdiction) by doing this as you are creating a derivative work for which you do not hold rights!!
2) The reason it says "data storage means" (or whatever) rather than CDR is that it has been broadened. It becomes ridiculous to replace every "data storage means" token with something like "CDR, CDRW, DVDR, DVDRW, Tape, Memory Stick,
Re:Translation of Patents ... copyright infringeme (Score:2)
However, for ease of reading, it should be obvious that specific instances of things are easier to deal with for most readers. Granted, a "sequential archive media member" isn't always a tape, but that phrase has no immediate reference in people's minds - they have to laboriously unpick it and make a new mental symbol to represent it. "Tape" may not be com
Re:Translation of Patents ... copyright infringeme (Score:2)
That said, it would be futile to try and do a commentary on all patents in the USA, as the USPTO is willing to give you a patent for just about anything that can b
Re:Translation of Patents ... copyright infringeme (Score:1)
That, and the fact that such "translations" into English would be largely worthless, as changing the language would necessarily mean changing the scope of what the language covers. Reading a "plain English" translation of a patent would not tell you claim scope--the only thing that matters on a patent. The scope is determined exactly by the language used, as defined in the bod
If you are concerned about software patents... (Score:5, Insightful)
Move to a jurisdiction not encumbered by patents? (Score:1)
Here's a question for the lawyers and not-a-lawyers with more time for legalese for the rest of us - if you're physically resident in one state, but only ever store and write programs in a second, and publish (whatever that means) in a third, which law applies?
Re:Move to a jurisdiction not encumbered by patent (Score:1)
If it's the former, there is no state patent law, as all patent law is federal (as is copyright law, both by the U.S. Constitution). Any patent suit in any state will be brought under federal law, so the states involved are largely meaningless.
If you meant which country, it could be more than one, or even all three, and it would depend on the laws of each state. Of course, there might be conflicts of law rules in one or more
Re:Move to a jurisdiction not encumbered by patent (Score:1)
Just a minor quible but the constitution, while providing the basis for federal patent and copyright law, does not in and of itself prohibit states from having patent and copyright laws. What does, in the case of copyright law, is Title 17 section 301 of the US Code which reserve to the federal government the right to enact copyright law. I'm sure there is something like that for patents, I just don't know it off the top o
Re:Move to a jurisdiction not encumbered by patent (Score:1)
Re:Move to a jurisdiction not encumbered by patent (Score:2)
The Constitution does not explicitly prohibit states from issueing patents and copyrights. But since Article I, Section 8 [usconstitution.net] does give Congress the power to issue patents and copyrights, I think that means that the power
Re:Move to a jurisdiction not encumbered by patent (Score:1)
Patent law covers making, using, and selling the patented invention. Anywhere any of those acts took place, that law would apply. If you write it in Canada, you "made" it in Canada. Canadian law applies to the act of writing. If you sell it in the U
Hahahaha (Score:1)
Good lord I'm evil.
Re:Hahahaha (Score:2)
Yes, while its prior art, I'm sure if you tried enough, had enough money and where bored enough, you could get it approved. Immediately release what happened to the media and watch how the system squirms under press
Fish/Google (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously, it would be interesting to see the technology behind Google Translate or AltaVista Babelfish applied not only to proper languages but also to specialized jargon and dialects: Legalase, Technobabble, maybe even Diner.
Hmmm, imagine using the fish to translate "From Legalese to Engrish" *cringes*
Re:Fish/Google (Score:2)
Seriously, it would be interesting to see the technology behind Google Translate or AltaVista Babelfish applied not only to proper languages but also to specialized jargon and dialects: Legalase, Technobabble, maybe even Diner.
I'm pretty sure both Diner and Technobabble could be successfully translated. Both share the purpose of being a shorthand with very specific meanings. Both are "designed" to allow insiders to communicate unambiguously.
Legalese (or at least Patentese) would be a lot less likely.
Just to add my two cents... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Just to add my two cents... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Just to add my two cents... (Score:2)
Really? I thought 'anything made by man under the sun' was patentable in the US. After all, two prime numbers represented in hex have been patented.
Note that even a few lines of software (strictly speaking a process which stops, C=A+B is sufficient) is exactly equivalent to an algorithm (Church, Turing etc.). I've read somewhere how the US courts managed to frig the semantics such that a 'pure' algorithm is not patentable but you can patent the
Re:Just to add my two cents... (Score:2, Informative)
Too much scope... (Score:4, Insightful)
Besides, if you spend all your time looking for a patent you mighg be violating, you'll not get any coding done.
Simple (Score:5, Funny)
The Anatomy of a Trivial Patent (Score:3, Informative)
For a temp solution (Score:4, Funny)
I have worked on a software patent in the past (Score:1, Insightful)
Despite writing large chunks of the text after the legal department had their way with it I can't tell you what it does.
Not out of fear, or nondisclosure or other legal hurdles - it's just but I don't understand a damn word of it!
What do these legal teams smoke in their breaks?