How Much Respect Do You Get?

droidlev asks: "In our continually fluctuating economy I have seen a drastic change in the level of respect that I receive. As a technician I've grown accustomed to a heightened level of respect when I walk into a client's office. Not to say that I have a God complex, however, it feels good to walk into a room and be appreciated. I'm passionate for the computer work that I do; I'm 'GEEK' for it. People know that I'm there to help and solve their problems. There is good amount of value in this extra level of appreciation and respect. This is especially true when you are developing business relationships (and of course it never hurts to be liked). In recent times, however, I've been cast in a different light; actually more like a darkened shadow. I am now seen as a necessary evil instead of the 'all powerful technician.' So I ask what your experiences have been, either as a computer technician or another professional? Have you seen a change in the level of respect that you receive?"

"Businesses are trying to save every penny they have. Unless something significant goes wrong, they handle a situation themselves. This only compounds the severity of a problem. By the time I get there, everything has gone to hell and I get a look (the it's-all-your-fault look) from every cubicle and every office. In the past, exceptionally dedicated service translated to loyal clients that didn't mind paying a little bit more. Once I was the problem solver, now it seems I am yet another flame to burn their money."

Your level of involvement in management dictates..

[csoto]

..the level of respect you get. I'm a "techie turned manager," and I can tell you for certain that when I was exclusively a "techie," I was a "genius" and "guru" and people loved me. Today, I'm a manager, and though lots of people still love me, they're also aware that I can affect the amount of pain or pleasure they experience from our IT services. It's a lot more responsibility, which comes with its own share of politics. People know this.

Anybody who manages geeks would be wise to keep that "geeks are our friends" culture going. It's never MY success, even if I was the one whose plan is being implemented, I chose the solutions, got the funding for it, etc. As far as our users are concerned, we just have a really great staff who always looks out for them, even if their manager is a jerk ;)

Allow me to boost your ego

[bigberk]

The 1980s through to today have been a spectacular time for American business. The stock markets have grown like never before. Business people, managers, and financial folk have been praised for being the backbone of a growing economy.

But there's a sad truth, evident to anyone who has dipped into that world... and that is, except for their brown-nosing skills and personal connections, business people, management, financial/accountants are mostly useless. It's questionable whether they have any real skills. And now society is starting to question whether these people have any value in the real sense of the word.

The modern satires (e.g. Dilbert) exist for a reason. It baffles people how the "flapping heads" or "PHBs" can be the ones in control, earnings the high salaries. You see, in the past few decades everyone wanted to become managers. And my personal belief is that the business world is starting to crumble because companies overweight in managers and associated staff lack tangible manpower, the power to get real business done.

So you technicians, engineers, and other professionals who can actually do real things... never you worry. Ultimately, you are the ones who have the skills to accomplish what society needs. The market of yesterday - for idiot managers, corrupt accountants - is coming to an end (though it may take some time).

Stop with the God complex

[Snap E Tom]

Jesus, we fix computers. We don't perform brain surgery.

I'm in the process of overseeing the work done by an outside tech support company for a nonprofit. Background: I'm a programmer. Mainly Java. Previously, internal , non-technical people were often the overseers and project sponsors for this group. The result is that 4 companies have been used in the past 5 years, with each one chased out due to corruption, incompetence, and regime changes. They recently hired a new company and asked me to be the liason.

I remember the first meeting. The owner walzted in smiling and shaking hands. He recommended a lot of Win2003 upgrades that had nothing to do with pressing needs. I, on the other hand, played hardball. I wore a suit, accused him of being more of a salesman than a techie, and said we needed a company much less myopic. He was completely shocked and his attitude has turned around 180 degrees.

I still have to work with them, but I call bullshit on them frequently, I grill them on what they're doing and why, I refuse to pay the full amount when they make bad decisions, I demand thorough documentation.

Respect them? Fuck no. I'm a watchdog.

The point is that this company, like many others, have gotten burned in the past and are much wiser on how money is spent. They've learned that the tech's word is not final and there will be no blank checks.

Further, don't forget that ITT and Heald churn out thousands of people that can do your job.

For awhile respect seemed to be dropping...

[meme_police]

...and I think it was because of malware. As users got more and more frustrated with malware they took out their frustrations on us techs for not being able to prevent their PCs from being infested. The funny thing is I use the same browser as they do and I have no spyware, I guess I'm not visiting the same porn, gambling, warez, gaming sites that they are.

But the tides have changed now that I install Firefox for them. They use IE for accessing our many internal IE-only web apps, and they use Firefox for browsing the Internet. And I'm now the hero again. If I could replace their PCs with Macs they'd be even happier but I work for one of the largest companies in the world and they're in very tight with Microsoft.

Keep the praise, I want out.

[Kaisum]

Being a senior in high school and developing the title "Computer boy" or something to that effect has opened me up to the myriad of retarded questions. Some people call me over to show them how to use google. The position doesn't get any respect just more questions like "How did you learn all of this?" It's obligatory praise. It also burns me because I can do a lot more than make a printer work or find someone's files on the server. There are people who actually do stuff worth praise with computers and I get extolled for knowing how to properly navigate through windows. Arg.

You are a commodity now

[AKAJack]

*IN GENERAL*

Computers are simpler to repair
Software is easier to troubleshoot
Remote assistance is starting to work
Companies are working hard to eliminate the technician

The goal should be that the mail room guy becomes your "technician" for everything easily replaceable. He will just take a new "computer" from a box, un-plug, re-plug and mail off the failed box for off-site repair. Happily all of your data resides on a server hosted off-site and the OS is loaded into memory on each boot up.

Seriously this line of work is going to be a much smaller segment of the market as the years progress and in ten years there will be no such thing for the most part.

The guy who comes to "fix" your computer will be as unknown as the iceman is today.

This isn't a flame - it's notice to start retraining now and get ahead of the game.

When the Berlin Wall collapsed I didn't sit on my ass in my fat aerospace job waiting for it to be pulled out from under me. I changed industries, took a pay cut and crawled right back up the ladder.

If you no longer command respect maybe today is the time to take start looking elsewhere - no matter how much you enjoy what you are doing now. it's not going to get any better, but it will get far worse.

Are you Nick Burns ??

[javaxman]

Are you sure you're not just Nick Burns [jt.org] posting as someone else ?

Sorry, I had to ask. On a more serious note, some of the responses you've seen so far are on the mark. You're an expense. If things worked the way they're supposed to, much of your expertise wouldn't be needed. If you're just troubleshooting, yea, you're the new version of the copier repair tech. Neither lawyers nor electrical engineers nor mid-level executives see you as their peer.

Worse, there has been a lot to dilute the view of computer professionals as _professionals_ lately, from the luster being knocked off tech by the dot-com bust, to an increasing number of posers ( think 'leetspeak' ) trying to pass themselves off as technologically knowledgeable, to a flood of certified MS/NET/CISCO/whatever folks who took a two-day class and paid for an exam but don't know how to _do_ squat, to an increase of good-ol' Amerkin anti-intellectualism. Call it a backlash if you will, but I think it's real. You can get respect now, but you really have to earn it, and you won't always get it even if you deserve it.

Re:We are now a commodity.

[Infinityis]

It sounds like the parent is saying, IT is now a commodity. People value luxuries. You pay a nickel for ramen noodles but a few hundred so your video card will render better graphics. People who repair plumbing and fix cars are paid way less than people designing personalized cutting edge media centers for homes.

That's why it's important to get a GOOD education and stay ahead of the curve. College teaches you how to learn, which is precisely what it takes to stay ahead. If you stay a technician, and your technology becomes ubiquitious, then you stand out no better (or at least not much better) than the cashier who checks out my groceries. And yes, if you have to call in the manager to checkout a certain item, I probably won't be happy.

Maybe it's not how things should be, but it is how they are perceived by the majority of non-technical people.

Imagine being an IT Security professional...

[krinsh]

You may have the technology knowlege and could do helpdesk if you hadn't advanced beyond that type of work; and the business acumen because you must understand more than just technology - law, regulation, ethics, physical security, and attempting to show your superiors that they are getting an ROI. Then realize that to them you are in the 'loss' column whether you protect them well or not; and often your success is measured in what you don't have to do (i.e. Incident Response or Forensics) rather than what you do.

Re:We are now an expense.

[glazed]

One can get plenty of respect as a "maintenance technician" you're still the guy THAT MAKES IT WORK! I was working at a job with the federal govt. and was sort of the on-site IT rep for the engineering and maintenance dept, the rest of the IT staff worked out of the headquarters building. The staff in that building loved finally having a local guy available, and it was interesting being sort of trans-departmental. I knew what was going on all over - got all the gossip. The rest of the IT staff was insular.

I also would help out the GSA rep who had an office in the building, so in exchange for helping her out with the occasional problem it proved helpful when I got approval for a vehicle...didn't get stuck with the standard low-end chevy cars, I ended up with a Suburban that was supposed to go to the secret service but turned out not to be needed by them.

I was the IT man in black.

Re:Janitors/electricians of the 21st century

[hackstraw]

I'm a sysadmin, and I tell people not in the field that my job is much like that of a janitor.

If I do my job perfectly, noone knows who I am, nor really cares.

If I don't do my job, people bitch about this and that.

On a tangent, I refuse to give autorespect to someone wearing a suit and tie. I always think to myself "Maybe their lawyer put them up to it".

Actually, after being convicted in court of my special crime, I was waiting to sign forms and stuff, and a mother and daughter were talking and the mother turned to me and said "Ask him, he's a lawyer". To which I smiled and said "No, I'm the defendant". :)

Re:Egoless professionalism

[GlassHeart]

Let your good work speak for itself.

The problem is that a lot of good work doesn't talk at all. If you only watch the highlights of a football (as in soccer) game, you'll likely see over and over again that the goalkeepers weren't able to catch the incoming balls. You won't ever realize how many they've caught.

That doesn't mean you become a prima donna, or backstab a colleague. It means that you often still need to let people (particularly your boss) know what you've been doing. Running a server farm, for example, isn't as obviously productive as assembling cars where you can just count the cars rolling off the line.

Respect, dignity, and disrespect

[phyruxus]

>>Respect is something you earn.

Your statement is very true. I want to point something out though: Disrespect is also earned. _Every_ human being _deserves_ a measure of simple human dignity. To treat someone with less than simple human dignity is uncalled for unless that person has wronged you. (Please not I'm not implying that the statement you made [respect is earned] is in any way in contradiction with my statement [dignity is universal, disrespect also being earned])

This subtle distinction seems lost on so many people I have dealt with. This isn't courtesy, it's basic.

<rant> This is the one thing I wish I could have impressed upon my peers and teachers and principals in grade school: that although respect is earned, DIGNITY is INHERENT. Until someone steps on your toes, it is wrong for you to attack them. Treating someone with dignity doesn't detract from how tough or cool or whatever you are. Treating anyone without dignity when you have no reason just makes you an ass.</rant>

This may be a little OT as I am referring to ALL social interaction and not just that with techs and geeks, but I have seen the statement "Respect is earned" abused so commonly to mean "dignity is earned" that my emotions just go nuclear every time I see it remembering childhood injustices. The sentiment may seem obvious, but alas it appears not to be. It would be worth my life to see it codified, at least socially.

Keep the R-E-S-P-E-C-T, all I ask is dig-ni-ty. Is that so wrong?

Heh. With outsourcing, we're all expendible...

[JabberBoi]

I worked for a Fortune 20 company for eight years, and attempted multiple times to move out of a position because I didn't feel technically challenged enough. I escaped twice, only to be recalled within months because my knowledge was valued. During my second recall, we had a downsizing and I volunteered to take on additional work in the position that I wanted to get out of, which was seen by many people as showing loyalty to the company and gained me respect by my peers and local management. My position was then eliminated (offshored) and I was forced into a new position where there was a tremendous skills mismatch, and guess what? I quickly got fired due to "judgement issues". At the time I had a 9-month old son who had severe birth defects such that he had spent seven months in the intensive care unit at a hospital. So, call me jaded or bitter, but respect really doesn't mean anything to me-- no matter how valuable your skills are-- and no matter how much respect people may have for you and your abilities-- you are still expendible.

Napoleon Complex

[TwoPumpChump]

Seriously... I'm 6'5", which means that I'm taller than a good 95% of the people that I meet.

Being 5'6" myself, and ectomorphic in physique as well, I know all to well what you're talking about. I'm invisible. In any group setting, the "Alpha Male" is never me by default. If I am required to take a leadership role, I have to earn it, every time - it's never given to me. Having been small my entire life, I've observed the phenomena you're talking about keenly - from the other side. Fortunately, being an introverted geek I prefer invisibility anyway. I'd like to think I'm well-adjusted, however I've known other Lilliputian [reference.com]fellows with severe Napoleon complexes [answers.com]; you know the type, small and diminuative they demand attention and are generally the worst pricks you'll ever meet.

Re:Genuine Vs. Displayed

[Saxerman]

My first real brush with respect happened as a youngster when dropping off checks for my father at the bank. He waited in the car while I ran in and dropped off the bundle of paper work with a teller. After handing me the receipt I was surprised to be thanked as Mr. Saxerman. It took me a minute to realize I had been mistaken for my father, but that brief moment of courtesy opened by mind to the difference between being a nobody, and being addressed as Sir.

The second incident happened when I went shopping after spending the day in interviews. I was still in college and this was the first time I had really been out in public while wearing a suit. The level of respect from the sales staffed was an amazing difference from what I was used to. Even average citizens were happen to hold the door open for me.

The lesson I've learned is that while respect is something you can earn, it's also something you can steal by inference. If people infer that you are important, that will treat you that way.

Oh fuck ya

[t0qer]

I thought about posting a story like this many many times since 2001.

Yah, we're no longer cool. It was happening before 2001, anyone working in a dying dot com could tell you that. More recently however it just seems like folks do not want to pay for my services.

Back around 98, I had no problems negotiating a good salary. If a company wasn't treating me right, i'd simple put my resume out on monster.com or fax it out, and i'd have 1/2 a dozen job offers within a week.

Some of the first few companies I worked at were great. My opinions were valued, and I was often given enough freedom in my job to do what was needed for a smooth running network.

Then around 99-2k things started falling apart. More and more my job function was being scrutinized. It felt like I was in constant competition with my managers to prove my worth.

2001, 9/11, massive layoffs, I just sort of got lost in the sea of resumes that were being pumped out by people not even in IT trying to get a decent paying job. I think this is where folks really started losing respect for IT as a whole. It wasn't the whole phony plumbers with a MCSE making it bad for us, it was the accountants, MBAs, former executives, and salespeople getting these positions, simply because they could put on a better face to HR and hiring managers than most of us socially inept geeks could. They were taking our jobs, and making us look bad with their lack of understanding for the role.

Eventually, I went into private consulting. Started my own company and picked up a few clients here and there. At first my rate was $75@hr, then $60, then $50. I went as low as $30 for one of my clients (They would pre-pay 10 hours a month) Even there, I got myself into a contract that was definetly more benificial for the client than it was myself.

The last client I dropped had 5 offices spread around the bay area, with one all the way in Redding. God damn, what a mess though.

The owner of the company insisted his employees had administrative access to their own machines. Every month those 10 hours of support would be eaten up by running ad-aware on thier spyware laden machines. Originally the contract was just for 3 offices, but when the new offices were brought online, their employees would call me for support. Being I'm a nice guy, i'd happily do what I could over the phone for them.

Things really fell apart when the Redding office came online though.

I had an injury that made me immobile. The office manager for the Redding office, and the owner of the company kept calling me up saying it needed to be done that week, and they were threatening to bring in another tech if I couldn't get that office online that week. I asked many times, "Hey, are you sure that office is ready?" I didn't want to lose that customer, so I told them I would subcontract another tech to go up there and be my remote hands.

Part of their setup is homebuilt routers and freeswan VPN's. Despite my debilitating condition, I spent the night before sending my tech up there preparing the client machines. They had no data for me on the DSL. The office manager LIED and told me they had DSL ready to go up there, but she just pretended to be a ditz and couldn't click start>run>cmd>ipconfig. She just kept telling me it wasn't working but she could browse the web just fine.

Well, Redding is about 500 miles from where I live. Did I mention that yet? No, I guess not..

My tech gets up there and the building has no power. There are no phone lines set up. Construction guys are working on generators. The floor was still bare uncarpeted cement. No furniture, No DSL, no desks to set the client PC's up on, nothing. Just a bare building. My tech called me up freaking out. There wasn't anything he could do.

So he did the best he could, even staying an extra day to wait for the DSL company (frontiernet I think) to get out there and at least get us a dial tone into the building.

Again, just t

Re:Respect or co-dependence?

[fsh]

Not sure why the parent was modded as funny, because this is absolutely true. Look at the height statistics from presidential elections. Sure Bush won against Kerry (Kerry had a 5" advantage)(Not that sort of 5" advantage you perv), but one of his camps' conditions for doing the debates was the split-camera view ensuring they both looked about equal in height.

Re:Oh fuck ya**UPDATE**

[t0qer]

I just got a call from one of our remote offices 5 minutes ago. Since the 2 months i've been gone this is what's happened.

Apparently, after I let the contract run out the company president hired the phone guy to do the IT stuff. He went around to all the offices badmouthing me, saying I didn't do this professionally, didn't do that right, this wrong ect.

The guy tried to add another office to the VPN. Right after trying, all the offices went offline. Without even looking, I know what happened because I made the same mistake myself.

In a freeswan VPN you have a CA or central authority cert. You make this cert once, then copy it to all the client machines in the VPN. You should in the very least know how to ssh to these other boxes to make it work.

My guess is BOB (no really, thats this guys name) regenned the CA, and didn't copy it to the other machines.

On top of being more expensive than I was ($95@hr) he was grossly unqualified. His services are no longer being used by the company.

I agreed to go out to the site tomorrow because of the office managers begging. It didn't take too much begging, I always liked this guy, and he always treated me with respect. Just one condition, he can't tell any of the other offices he had me out there servicing his PC's.

Maybe i'll write tomorrow about the fine mess i'm going to see.

Re:Janitors/electricians of the 21st century

[temojen]

Interestingly, I seem to have a "works here aura" or something too. I've been mistaken for everything from a convenience store manager, to a police detective (by cops -- wtf?), to a doctor, depending on where I go. I don't wear fancy clothes or anything.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

[KaiserSoze]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Republicans are business-friendly---as long as that business is legit.

Hoo boy, had to wipe my eyes after that one. While I do hate the current incarnation of the Republican Party, I am in no way biased FOR the Democrats. I am a Democrat, but if they do something wrong I will (and do) hold them accountable. For instance: the anti-everyone-but-credit-card-companies bill that just floated through a REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED CONGRESS. It is horribly anti-consumer, but 12 Dems stepped across the aisle to support it. I strongly supported Joe Biden until he got into bed with the loan-shark business (ever heard of Universal Default? you will.) You see, unlike batshit insane Republican Plent-T-Plaint drones, I evaluate the sides to a story and make a decision based on them. It's not my fault that, unless George W. man-dates his personal History curriculum be taught in high school hstory, this time will likely go down as The Time A President Royally Fucked Every One Of His Constiuents That Didn't Make $200,000+ Per Year.

Now onto the business at hand: who, fucking exactly, has been "brought to justice" by the almighty Ashcroft Justice Department? Ken Lay, former CEO of the greatest business scam in the history of Wall Street and the guy that George W. Bush nicknamed "Kenny Boy"? No. But because some junior vice president was prosecuted on mail fraud or some such bullshit, apparently the Republican Party's vision of Justice (cover up the right tit on that statue!) has been done.

Second: Enron and AA were major democrat businesses, and in no way associated with Bush or the republican party, thankfully. I knew at this point I was dealing with (a.) a troll or (b.) someone so completed divorced from the reality we live in that no words printed on paper, screen, or spoken aloud could convince them that the Republican Party wasn't the Second Coming of Jesus Fucking Christ in all his 'steal from the rich, give to the poor' glory... wait, um, Robin Fucking Hood? Eh, whatever.

To say that Democrats supported Big Business in the Clinton Years is correct and every true progressive laments the shift to the right based on 'chasing the center,' but to wave a hand at the utter corruption of the Republican Party; to dismiss the right-wing-ization of K Street and the attempt to give to the rich while placating the poor with gay marriage and Terry Shiavo are the actions of a madman or a fool.

As you are on this particular message board I will assume you are neither. I will go ahead and assume you are a libertarian-leaning GOoPer who likes the fact that Gee Dubya cut his taxes and attacked the fools that messed with us on Sept. 11th (except... SURPRISE! It wasn't IRAQ!) Well, I know that winning elections are fun and it feels fantastic to spit in the face of us Dems and scream "We won! We have a man-date!" while you fondle yourselves and dream of a national flat tax, but unless you accept Jesus Christ as your Personal Savior and bow to every whim of Jerry Fucking Falwell, don't expect the honeymoon to last long.

Disdain for respect

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually don't want to get any kind of personal respect when doing my job.

I'd rather people saw me as the guy that fixes things, when things go wrong.

I want to be seen as capable, independant, strong, and resilient.

Which means, that I want to be respected for what I do. I want to come from a baseline of "what the hell is this guy on". To, hey it works. I can go back to my job.

Part of the reason, is that I don't actually want to "help people". I want to fix problems.

And I'll help people as far as letting them get back to what they're doing in the most efficient manner.

I've actually pissed people off sometimes, by my bluntness. But at the same time, I generally get along with anyone who's going to give me the space to do what has to be done. And I generally find people step out of my way, and let me in. And, even if momentarily, people are sometimes somewhat intimidated at me, I generally find that it means I get down to the roots of problems, whilst other people around me, are scattered.

Mind you, I'm pretty scattered too. I hold emotions back whilst working, and then release them as soon as I've accomplished what I'm doing.

Which means I switch in and out of "professional mode". And get people up on their feet, whilst things need to be done. And then can still be nice to people, when I'm not in the middle of doing something.

My main problem when dealing with other people, is that I'm really terrible with being overly aggressive when communicating with people that can take it. And even though I calm down, for people who can't take it. Sometimes, if they're watching, they can become a bit intimidated by my tendencies to stand up to "people of authority".

I've also got the high-paced geek trait, of seeming like I'm on amphetamines.

It's because I use intuition for logic. And when my intuition is running really fast, I'm seeming with possibilites and keep running through them at a rapid rate, and have to focus them on something so that I don't go shouting about the virtues of doing things properly.

But, hey, at the end of the day, people generally seem to respect me, for what I do. And just generally avoid me, if they're intimidated by me.

And that works for me. Although some people go passive aggressive if I'm working with them. And I'm not "supporting" them. But they generally just slip between the cracks.

Oh yeah, I'm a bit of an asshole when I work. I'm working on it :P

Re:Genuine Vs. Displayed

[kin_korn_karn]

I got the same thing when I shaved my beard around the time I was 20-21 or so. I was out of work and had been applying for jobs and nobody was interested. I shaved my beard and I had a job within a couple of weeks.

Also, I have bad eyesight, so I wear contacts. When I was in college, I worked as a computer lab assistant. We had regulars that would come in, the usual college lab scene. One day I wore my glasses (with the classic coke-bottle lenses) to work as an experiment and the exact same people that were friendly and used to joke around and never gave me shit about anything were rude, obnoxious, uppity dickheads. And these weren't 19 year old freshmen, either, this was a branch campus full of non-traditional (i.e. older) students.

That pointed out one of the many ways in which adults lied to me as a kid. People are just as shallow when they get older as they are as children.

Re:Yeeah, I don't buy it.

[Psychotext]

I can answer signed / unsigned and pointers but not stack / heap. I'm sure I used to know it, but it's gone. Is it that important? Seriously. That might be useful knowledge in your area of IT, but it's not going to be useful everywhere. :)

I think if you're getting such useless staff handed to you, you need to speak to your HR people and ensure they know exactly what skills you're looking for (I don't think just stating IT degree will cut it!).

Re:Class.

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of it is simply supply and demand. Can this person be replaced easily. A fast-food or janitor position can be filled by any high-school kid. Some might be a lot better than others, but the difference between "good enough" and "great" isn't that big, and almost anyone can be good enough.

On the other hand, very few people have what it takes to be a CEO or a neurosurgeon, and when you find a good one, you never want anyone less. Someone with a PhD has learned to put a lot of attention into a problem. If they solve an unsolvable problem for you, you will love them forever more.

There are other ways of getting respect, like influence. A CEO gets respect because he has influence over a lot of people.

The problem with being a tech is that there are a lot of them out there now, so you seem replaceable. Also, the quality of the whole tech industy isn't that good, so you aren't the wizard who makes technology work anymore, you are the guy who (eventually) makes it work for a few days before it breaks again. Other departments don't answer to the techs, you answer to them, so you don't have any influence. Many techs like to burn their respect poings on their BOFH impersonations, thinking they are entitled to respect because they can do what nobody else can.

Now, none of this makes you a better or worse person (although the entitlement bit might hurt). A hardworking janitor who does charity work might be a better person than a selfish CEO. It isn't going to get him as much respect, or get him into the same level of society. Then again, he might prefer the salt of the earth to the phony business types.

Re:Hi Rodney!

[14erCleaner]

Rodney was an inspiration to those of us who climb Colorado's 14,000' peaks. Last summer, a number of us from a climbing website [fourteenerworld.com] took a cardboard cutout of Rodney (with his permission) to about 25 Colorado high summits. We were all saddened by his illness and death. Here [fourteenerworldforum.com] is a picture of him on Mount Harvard, 14,420'.

Appreciation is inversely proportional to know-how

[zapster]

I have been a technician for 19 years and have learned that the most important part of earning respect is in making sure your client knows how hard you are working for them.

This dawned on me one day as a client mentioned that one of my techs did a fantastic job repairing a piece of equipment. I had been riding this guy for weeks because he was not doing basic repair stuff like vacuuming it out. He just kept ordering parts and had his head inside the machine 3-4 hours a day. What the lady that owned the machine cared about was his doggedness about coming in every day and working on it. Muttering about the insanity of the manufacturer, sweating, cursing under his breath etc. He really looked like he was doing his best. That is the key.

I work with radio equipment, 911 dispatch type stuff, and one day got called in on a nasty interference problem. I took a look at the environment and reviewed the complaints and because I knew intimatly the environment, I came up with a solution that took 10 minutes and solved the problem. I could have easily spent several days chasing the problem had I not had so much experience in the area. After fixing the problem and feeling quite exhuberant about such a subtle solution (I moved an antenna a mere 3 feet which blocked interference coming from 2 miles away) I realized that the manager who called me would not understand what I did and would not appreciate it. Obviously since I fixed it in 10 minutes it must have been easy and he was not at all happy that he had to pay for a 1 hour service call, when I had only been there 30 or so minutes.

Lesson learned.

I have never dogged it on a service call but I have sent much less experienced techs on calls I knew would take a long time if they didn't know exactly what was up :) Customers love us. An outgoing communications manager for a 911 dispatch center recently introduced me to his replacement as "the guy who saves your ass".

You get no respect when you walk in and punch a few buttons and the problem goes away. You get respect when you pull the guys ass out of the fire just as he is falling in.

Re:Class.

[Bonhamme Richard]

I was speaking with a Navy Lt this afternoon, and one of his comments is along this line:

He was on a carrier, and there was a trash fire. Someone tossed a cig in the garbage, or soemthing, and a trash bag ended up starting a little blaze. It was nothing spectacular, until you realized that it was moving towards a container full of jet fuel. As he put it, that much jet fuel would "crack the ship in half". If you take a minute to think about how BIG a 90,000 TON aircraft carrier is, you'll realize that it would be a BIG explosion. And what happened? The people working on the flight deck, a bunch of un-educated 19 year old enlisted guys, ran TOWARDS the inferno, and put the fire out before it lit off the jet fuel. These guys may have been at the bottom of the totem pole, but when they pulled into port... guys who had $160,000 educations were buying these 19-year olds drinks.

There are some shitty jobs out there, but some absolutely amazing people do damn good work at some of them. And the intellegent people out there respect them for it.

'The Necessary Evil' [Re:Yeeah, I don't buy it.]

[chronicon]

Don't underestimate this concept...

I've heard it said more then once in my own organization--and (condsidering what they ask of us) it hurts. Being viewed as the 'fat to be trimmed' from the budget is exactly the case every year. 'Are they really working?'... 'How do you know they are working?' [Look at all my tickets and multiply that by two, ye most highly exonerated & most noble PHB!]

So what happens? We have fewer field techs then ever before and we are expected to do more... much, much more. (The company is growing massively, but do we see the IT dept. expanding, uh... NO!)

I'm not just talking about expanding our regular tech duties: we supervise general contractors (and report back to the Real Estate department) on remodels and new developments. We are now 'Asset Protection', in charge of all aspects of the security systems. We're viewed as the 'eyes & ears' of the company [for the home office], whatever that is supposed to mean. The list goes on & on, but I won't bore you...

The simple fact (as it appears to me) is that if all the field techs walked out at the same time the company would probably... survive--but they would hurt very, very badly....

If the network team walked... they would simply die on the vine. No question.

Re:Genuine Vs. Displayed

[TheWanderingHermit]

Which is why I alwyas go car shopping wearing blue jeans and a t-shirt (and, if it's warm enough, sandals). If I'm buying a car, I've researched it, I'm not going to dicker in person (if you do it over the phone and do it right, you can 1) dicker with a manager and NOT a salesman, 2) let them think you're "in the biz", and 3) sometimes dicker from their price and go up, instead of starting at the sticker and go down). Once a salesman sees you on a car lot, you don't get a moment of peace, so I like to look grungy for them. I've also found that some smart salesman won't judge, and the ones that'll come up to you even if you're dressed grungy are more professional and easier to deal with.

I think of grungy clothes as a deflector shield for Lesiure-Suit-Larry type car salesman.

I have also had experiences where I've been snubbed by one salesman because I looked grungy, and another treats me real well, and I made sure the one that snubbed me sees me paying the other with a large wad of cash. This works great at stores where they get paid in commission. I've even been known to make a comment on my way out, like, "I tried to get everyone to help me, but he's the only who did, so I made sure he got the commission."

Re:Genuine Vs. Displayed

[TheWanderingHermit]

I have a small company that provides data for lawyers and other professionals. At first I would wear a suit, but was telling them what my product could do. They knew I started the company and had designed and written most of the software. In short, my "agent" had pre-sold me, as well as my product, and he had sold me as an uber-geek. When they saw me in a suit, they were't sure how to react (and this isn't just techies -- this is the lawyers, too).

When I started wearing a simple collared shirt with a company logo on it, and made sure I looked more like a computer geek, I found I was treated with much more respect by all concerned. It reminded me of when I was invited in to pitch to Ron Moore at ST:TNG. My agent told me about one of her writers who went to an interview in a 3 piece suit and it almost cost him the job (the producer said he was used to writers in moth eaten sweaters).

I think a lot of it has to do with people's expectations, as well as who you are. I think the lawyers could tell I wasn't a suit and that writer didn't own a suit (bought it for the interview). If you are comfortable as you are, you will show more comfort and confidence.

You're being too literal in interpreting what the other poster says. I think his point is that he's making it clear, by not wearing a suit, that he is being natural, and not fronting for the other tech people he's talking to. Perhaps they respect him because his attitude and clothes are in sync with who he is and how he acts.

An Outside Perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

...this was the first time I had really been out in public while wearing a suit. The level of respect from the sales staffed was an amazing difference from what I was used to. Even average citizens were happen to hold the door open for me.

As a Canadian, I've had some very wierd experiences regarding people's reactions to clothing and apperance while in the U.S.

On a trip to L.A., I went on one of those movie studio tours. I was wearing a new pair of long pants and a collared shirt, which to me seemed fairly casual. As the tour went on, I got a strange feeling that the tour guides were especially aware of me, and trying very hard to impress me with how much fun everyone was having. It was creeping me out, frankly, and I was starting to wonder if I had gotten too much sun or something.

The tour goes on, and we're in one of those trams that take you through the outdoor movie sets, when the tour guide says something like "... and there's Joe Smith, a rising star executive at Paramount, and VP of some very important department...", and he was wearing the exact same clothing I was right down to the same color belt and shoes. Apparently, the guide assumed I was an executroid doing some kind of quality control check on the tour.

Two days later, we decide to visit an art museum. I figured, based on the previous experience, that people are more casual in California, so I wear a golf shirt, a crisp new pair of shorts, white socks and running shoes. The people working there treat me like I was some kind of hood, they didn't turn their back on me for a minute. I might as well have been wearing a sign saying "I'm here to steal or destroy anything I can get my hands on".

On another vacation, I made the mistake of wearing nice clothes for the airline flight and was grilled by the customs officer like you wouldn't believe, because he thought I was really entering the country for a job interview (I wasn't).

Visiting Boston on a different trip, wearing my usual casual clothes, I seemed to fit in, but for the few days I was wearing a suit and tie, I couldn't believe the reaction I was getting. It was like they were looking at Donald Trump or something. I've never gotten that kind of reaction in Canada just for wearing a suit.

To me, it's as if the United States has a very strict dress code that goes something like this:

1) Ratty shorts, and an Ozzy Ozborne T-shirt - I'm on vacation.

2) Jeans - It's the weekend.

3) Slacks and a collared shirt - I'm at work.

4) A suit and tie - I'm on my way to collect my Nobel prize, and meet the King of Sweden.

If you break this code it really does seem to upset people. Often, it's as if they are completely unable to override your appearance, and relate to you based on your actual conduct. I've never gotten that kind of vibe from people that come from any other part of the world - just the U.S. It makes me wonder sometimes, if the U.S. is a much more stratified society than it is made out to be.

(This isn't meant as a troll, America bashing, or a criticism - just an observation).

Re:Genuine Vs. Displayed

[jadavis]

I always thought you got more shallow as you got older. How do you know what to be shallow about when you're young?

We don't need respect, we need democracy

[master_p]

It's good to be respected, but respect does not make a working society. We need more democracy. A person has no use for respect, when that person is laid off because of economic strategies. In that case, the society does not really respect that person: from one point, society says to the person 'congrats, you are good', but from the other side it says 'you are too expensive' or 'we have earned enough money, we no longer require your services'.

More democracy means less people left in their fate, less people being victims of others with power in their hands. More democracy means less crime, more education, equal rights, less superstition, more transparency to where the vast amounts of money changing hands every day go.

Of course, this post may even be considered a view of an anarchist, or even a terrorist. These words would not have been told 20 or 30 years ago, simply because there was no need to: most people were thinking along these lines. But today...it's a totally different situation: people just want their way, without any consideration about others.

This post may seem off-topic, but it is not: respect for an IT person is directly related to respect for the individual, which is, in turn, directly related to democratic principles and how much civilized our society is. In a world that even 'civilized' societies are actually jungles in disguise, where the big fish eats the small one for breakfast, is a topic about 'respect of an IT person' really meaningful?

Re:Oh fuck ya

[kevinadi]

Damn man, you're just too nice. Stop doing that or you'll get strangled pretty soon. I echo the sentiments in the other comments, they NEED you, you NEED them, that's where the relationship ends. They ask more, you have to ask more too. It's the art of saying "fuck you" with a smile that's proven invaluable, at least for me.

In turn, there are at least that many shitty IT companies too that screws people over. I was consulting for a company that wants to redesign their network and database system. In short, the whole thing. I look at every contract and basically try to get the best deal for my client. Up until the signing of the contract, I rechecked every term to make sure there's no shithole wide open. The IT company agreed to make a 3 months free support after final deployment.

Then after that it takes a turn for the worse. They start recommending ridiculous spec for a terminal and the servers. Who the hell needs LCD screen and a DVD drive on the cheapo terminals in 2002? They also suggested a RAID array on the servers, but no mention of UPS. I immediately smell a rat, since all their spec is based on Compaq's offering. When I asked them why I need all this junk, they replied that buying bulk from Compaq can save me heaps.

I give them a virtual fuck you by recommending to my client a competing spec, which is more reasonable and way cheaper. I let the client decide.

It's getting even better after that. They put a new programmer in the project. After some careful checking, I honestly think this guy was fresh form college with minimal knowledge of databases. Long story short, the project dragged on longer and longer, with them finishing all deployment 3 months late.

And then the manager of the IT company told me that I have to renew my support contract, since the free 3 months I got was expired. Me and my client then told them, since their deployment was 3 months late, then there's no way in hell they're getting paid for their screwups in the first place. They retort by saying that the date for the end of the free support was clearly indicated in the contract. We retort by saying that if you don't honor your deployment date, then we don't honor the payment detail. It was a funny meeting to watch. Luckily I told my client to not sign the contract unless there's another term of payment AFTER the project's all done and all free support term finished.

Well, after all those rubbish, everything is ok and they proceeded to give us the final source code. I insist to see it compile and working in front of my eyes.

Moral of the story is, business is business. If you let no shithole open for anyone to screw you over with, they can't do it. Even then, they'll try to screw you. Just make sure you have the arsenal to hit them back just in case they tried, preferably with a bigger gun. Just be on your guard at all times. This is a management skill, and the reason why their pay is higher than engineers. Honestly it's not an easy task to guard the livelihood of your company. One small mistake and the whole company could be over.

Briefcase

[Hungry Admin]

What's he got in his briefcase?

Lunch, of course!

I remember my first briefcase, got it when I started up a small consulting business and needed a place for carrying a few floppies (later CDRoms), paperwork / day-planner, and tools.

When you dress in something nicer than a t-shirt and jeans, and carry a decent briefcase, suddenly you are a professional in the eyes of the client.

It's easy to spoil the illusion if you try, though.