Is Obtaining a Windows Refund Still Difficult? 548
Bubblehead asks: "A few years ago, everybody was talking about returning their copy of Windows to receive a refund. I plan on buying a Laptop shortly, and most manufacturers still insist on shipping it with some version of Windows. I was wondering what the state of the affairs is - there isn't that much information on the net. The most prominent piece of information is this 2003 Linux Journal Report outlining how the author had to go to small claims court to receive a refund. Any experiences - especially with vendors that do not offer an alternative?"
Your journey starts here (Score:5, Informative)
www.windowsrefund.org [windowsrefund.org]
(In the title bar it says windowsrefund.net, but that site times out. Don't know what that's all about...)
Re:Your journey starts here (Score:3)
Re:Your journey starts here (Score:4, Interesting)
Our local shop used to build them... until they went defunct.
Re:Your journey starts here (Score:4, Informative)
Care to name some? I'll name the ones I know:
http://discountlaptops.com [discountlaptops.com]
http://www.emperorlinux.com [emperorlinux.com]
Please help expand my list.
Re:Your journey starts here (Score:3, Informative)
Los Alamos Computers [laclinux.com]
I'm sure a lot of Slashdotters know the feeling when you get on the tech support line and feel like they treat you like you know nothing, when in fact they're the ones that don't know what they're talking about...
Well, with LAC, they'll treat you as a peer. First off, they request special instructions when you order, if you'd like a RAID setup, what runlevel you'd like to use, what display manager, what desktop environment, etc. They're also cooperative. For exa
Goto www.pricewatch.com (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Your journey starts here (Score:5, Funny)
http://www.apple.com [apple.com]
I did it (Score:4, Insightful)
I had to take watford electronics to court (small claims), though they backed down about a week before they court appearance.
The interesting thing about their defense was it was "The EULA is not binding on us because we are a third party, the license being between microsoft and yourself".
My reply was that they purchased the OEM copy with that EULA and that it was I that had no relationship to MS. If they didn't want to be bound by the EULA then they could have put a different version of Windows on there.
How much though? (Score:3, Interesting)
the amount MS changes if you buy XP off the shelf. Do they try and
determine just what that vendor paid for it or would they try and
determine how much of the cost of the machine is represented by the OS
installed on it. That is, the difference between a machine sold with
XP installed and the same machine shipped with linux or no OS at all,
for example.
Re:How much though? (Score:2)
Re:How much though? (Score:5, Interesting)
Which is good, because if Dell (or whoever) starts losing money by only shipping Windows on their machines, they will want to offer Windows-less notebooks.
Re:How much though? (Score:5, Interesting)
This is because Microsoft will probably not show up in court to rebut your evidence of value.
Without any contrary evidence, the judge is going to accept whatever amount you put in your complaint as long as you submit some competent evidence to support the finding.
Re:How much though? (Score:2)
Re:How much though? (Score:3, Insightful)
Dell is probably the worst example to use, twice companies have tried to get other OSes installed on Dell machines (Apple in the early 90's with Mac OS for x86, Be in the late 90's with BeOS). I am sure going forth since the DOJ trial new Windows licenses are different but Michael Dell has gone on record stating that they have to pay for Windows whethe
Re:How much though? (Score:3, Informative)
Then download Feature Tool from Hitachi to turn it off http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm [hitachigst.com]
Recent experience story (Score:5, Interesting)
He tried to return a copy of XP that he purchased at his campus bookstore. First the bookstore refused the return. Then Microsoft refused. So he sold it on eBay. eBay took down the auction, but then later allowed it. Microsoft countered by suing him, and trying to take his 2002 Escort as damages. Good story. I won't ruin the ending.
--H
Re:Recent experience story (Score:2, Informative)
He countersued & eventually they settled, David signing an NDA so we'll never know the terms.
Re:Recent experience story (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Recent experience story (Score:3, Funny)
I got pulled over in some rural Georgia county on my way to Florida and the officer tried to say I was doing 98 in a 70. I looked at him and said "98? you do realize this is an Escort, right?" He laughed, started to walk off, and said he'd get his radar gun checked.
Re:Recent experience story (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not what you know, it's who you know.
refund?!? they tried to CHARGE me! (Score:5, Interesting)
About seven years ago I too was looking for a laptop and I wanted one without Windows on it. I won't divulge the vendor's name. After a frustrating attempt to explain my "customization" with the service rep, i.e., a "nude" laptop, he transferred me to his manager.... He at first declined to agree to sell me one, but after a moment, and a pause he AGREED... another pause, then he said, "But we'll have to charge you an extra $100 for it." (I am NOT making this up!) Kind of gives you a relative feel for what value (or negative value) Windows added to that laptop, n'est-ce pas?
To the post's question, I am in the similar situation of wanting a new laptop... Have found several that are very close to everything I want and need in a laptop, but ALL come with XP Pro -- which I'm assuming adds $100 to $200 to the cost of the machine and I intend to use the machine for linux ONLY.... and I'm not willing this time to ring one up for MS.
Why shouldn't he charge you extra? (Score:3, Insightful)
If all their drives are pre-imaged with whatever selection OSs their inventory system can tolerate, that's good for 99.9995% of all their customers, why shouldn't the guy who wants to be different and have the work done for him pay for it?
Re:Why shouldn't he charge you extra? (Score:5, Insightful)
Using a car as an example (I hate doing this) it might be like one tire manufacturer insisting through bullying and manipulating that ALL cars are delivered with their specific brand of tires, even though they are very specific and non-general tires, and there is ample evidence of a market for other types of tires (non-studded, low temp, etc)... It would be an unfair market place if consumers had to pay that "tax" (even if labor were involved to remove and replace said tires with other type) to get a product more suitable to their needs.
This isn't an issue of people being pissy and making snippy demands, it's an issue of a marketplace gone awry and still not corrected by the tactics still in practice by one giant firm, albeit practiced in a more nuanced and subtle way.
Re:Why shouldn't he charge you extra? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why shouldn't he charge you extra? (Score:3, Insightful)
In that case, the company would have had no excuse to charge him extra for not installing Windows (or de-installing it, whatever). Unless of course all the laptops already have hard drives in them, pre-installed in China or wherever they're being assembled. In which case I would say that a company that's not even assembling the computers on-site isn't one that I'd really want to buy a 'custom' system from, and is a
Re:refund?!? they tried to CHARGE me! (Score:3, Informative)
Give them away (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah, I'll take one.
Re:refund?!? they tried to CHARGE me! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:refund?!? they tried to CHARGE me! (Score:3, Interesting)
Buy a Linux-only laptop then (Score:4, Informative)
Terrasoft Solutions sell Linux-only laptops, desktops and servers using Fedora Core 2 based YDL.
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/ [terrasoftsolutions.com]
They specialise in PPC only, so if you insist on an x86 powered machine then you'd have to find another such shop. I am confident there must be companies just like Terrasoft who specialise in x86 based Linux pre-installed gear.
In fact, a quick google search for "linux preinstalled laptops" shows the this very interesting site as first hit
http://mcelrath.org/laptops.html [mcelrath.org]
according to that site, there are plenty of options for people interested in x86 based Linux-only laptops.
Re:refund?!? they tried to CHARGE me! (Score:2)
Actually, I had similar experiences with other vendors in my same trek, and I didn't want to single this one out... they were the only ones I pressed hard enough to bend on giving me a computer without Windows on it.
Re:refund?!? they tried to CHARGE me! (Score:3, Informative)
Yeah, not an easy world for those trying to do linux on laptops, but since you mention HP, I'll relate my happy-ending story...
I have the HP zx5000... ordered it knowing I could make full use of the Windows side of it (yes, I do DO Windows, .... sigh). And hopeful I might make inroads by creating a successful dual boot with linux and hopefully get the wireless working without having to resort to an external pcmcia card to do so.
Used Mandrake 10.1, and used the partition re-size out of the box (from Mandr
Re:refund?!? they tried to CHARGE me! (Score:3, Interesting)
$40 -- still more extra than I'm willing to pay for something I won't use... What is your source for knowing this cost? (I assumed manufacturers DID get a volume discount... but didn't know how much.... figured at 50%, PRO would be around $100.... didn't figure more of a discount, but it's really beside the point. I shouldn't have to pay if I'm not going to use it, and I don't want to pay the $100 extra to have it delivered without the OS.... )
Is this REALLY an unreasonable expectation?
Re:refund?!? they tried to CHARGE me! (Score:5, Interesting)
I understand that, but computer manufacturers don't cater to you. They cater to people who want their computers to work out of the box.
What is your source for knowing this cost?
Fairly common knowledge if you've ever talked to an OEM or Microsoft.
didn't know how much.... figured at 50%, PRO would be around $100
This is a *massive* volume discount, not a "buy 9000 get the 10000th free!" deal.
shouldn't have to pay if I'm not going to use it
I don't contest that, and unfortunately in the case of laptops you still don't have a choice.
Is this REALLY an unreasonable expectation?
My comment was really aimed at your mistaken assumption that because some guy at a retailer wanted (stupidly) to charge you $100 for removing Windows then that must be the cost of the OS. That's not the case.
Of course people like you conveniently ignore the fact that PC manufacturers operate tight ships with razor-thin margins aimed at the retail consumer market. The "options" that you get when you buy a computer have already been integrated into their assembly/config process and a cost and supply/inventory solution factored for each one.
Even asking them *not* to do something is disruptive to their business chain. That's why they don't do it. It's not like they don't want the extra business, small as it might be. It would simply cost them more to cater to you.
Re:refund?!? they tried to CHARGE me! (Score:3, Informative)
You need to take the computer out of the line, out of the protective carrier that it's in (either the box, or just some foam protection), plug it in, turn it on, wait for it to boot, then get to a command prompt, then run fdisk, then discover that windows doesn't let you run fdisk on the active partition, and so on. Or... perhaps have that floppy around for the one in 10,000 chance that someone doesnt want windows.
THEN... add onto that the overhead of having a customisation channel for
Re:refund?!? they tried to CHARGE me! (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not sure where the meme that "free market economy == every vendor should be required by law to exactly meet my specific requirements" originated from, but it's not even *remotely* accurate.
Your experience is a textbook example of how a free market economy *should* work. Vendor A doesn't sell the product you want. You negotiate with Vendor A to provide a product that meets your requirements, a customisation they see the need to charge for. At a
No windows (Score:5, Interesting)
Simple answer to that... (Score:4, Insightful)
Simple Solution: Include a bootable Linux distro with the laptop. It proves it is working, but doesn't alter it in any way. It is about as close to free as you can get (cost of a blank cd). I would, in fact, recommend trying out the laptop with your bootable distro of choice before buying it. (if you can find the model you want in a brick-n-mortar store)
Re:No windows (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not a compelling reason at all.
Re:No windows (Score:3, Interesting)
Cos I'd swear you needed games to use a console.
Re:No windows (Score:4, Informative)
Re:No windows (Score:3, Interesting)
Buy a Linux Laptop... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Buy a Linux Laptop... (Score:2)
Re:Buy a Linux Laptop... (Score:3, Informative)
http://linuxcertified.com/linux_laptops.html [linuxcertified.com]
Says on the pages "No windows tax"; and, I'm not the hippest when it comes to the newest specs, but they seem to have the latest and greatest.
Re:Buy a Linux Laptop... (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.linare.com/linare-linux-notebook.php [linare.com]
Not the latest and greatest, but at comes with an Athlon XP-M 1800+ CPU. I have one of these and must say it is pretty zippy. Not bad for the price.
Got my refund (Score:5, Funny)
Just got my Windows XP Pro refund from MS last week. Package contained several foreign coins, a coupon booklet, and one human soul.
Re:Got my refund (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, of course. MS has a bunch of them they obtained dirt cheap.
here is what i'm wondering (Score:3, Insightful)
having said that, why should one have to go through all this trouble just to get a refund, i've seen an article explaining the very same procedure before, will this go on forever?
as long as the manufacturers can avoid it whenever possible, they will continue to splurt out BS over the phone as long as it's legal and gives them a slight chance that they can avoid the refund.
Re:here is what i'm wondering (Score:2)
Re:here is what i'm wondering (Score:2)
I think the general point stands. The type of people who demand Windows refunds aren't the type of people who buy Dell Latitudes.
Re:here is what i'm wondering (Score:2)
This is true in most cases, and I won't argue. However, what happens when we want to get our hands on the latest AMD64 laptop? Our choices are limited. Generally, I just stick with buying XP home, but there has to be a better way, like opting not to buy it at all or selling it on ebay.
Re:here is what i'm wondering (Score:2)
A round or two of squabbling with a customer probably costs more than an OEM Windows license does. I think the answer is simply that there is insufficient demand to make the manufacturers bother to have a policy. As the submitter said, this was an issue a few years ago and since then has almost entirely dropped ou
Re:here is what i'm wondering (Score:2)
Previous Slashdot discussion (Score:2)
Re:Previous Slashdot discussion (Score:2)
Shouldn't the question be: (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess if you're extremely principled, I can see doing it.
Re:Shouldn't the question be: (Score:5, Insightful)
In market economy, you don't just buy things to get them for yourself. When you buy a product, you are giving a message to the manufacturer that there is demand, and that you like their products better than their competitors'. Your actions are shaping the industry.
If I'm forced to buy a copy of Windows I don't want, I'm giving the wrong message to the industry. For example, Linux drivers are not being developed well enough, because everyone thinks everyone uses Windows. It's not quite true, but the industry is getting the message that everyone wants Windows, because of this imbecile policy of OEM Windows copies.
In the end, I'm doing this because I'm greedy: I want good Linux drivers. It probably helps if I give everyone the message that I prefer to use Linux rather than Windows on my machines.
What?? (Score:3, Insightful)
Any experiences - especially with vendors that do not offer an alternative?"
The wording of that would lead me to belive that there are vendors that do offer an alternative. So once again...this is stupid.
Re:What?? (Score:2)
I remember something in the EU regarding product bundling. I am not sure exactly so someone can probably explain but I was under the impression that there are rules regarding bundling of products. I mean I am not sure
Re:What?? (Score:3, Informative)
As the article [slashdot.org] mentions, Windows' licensing agreement explicitly entitles you to a refund from the manufacturer.
Re:What?? (Score:5, Insightful)
When this was on slashdot almost two years back [slashdot.org], I seem to recall that there were too many dozens of posts making bad analogies to cars and car dealers.
Folks, computers are fundamentally different from cars, and most other goods[1]. Argument by analogy is a bad plan in general, but argument by bad analogy is a sure-fire disaster. Let's try arguing by logic, or inspecting the entrails of goats, instead.
I suppose that I've just unleashed a thousand bad analogies which will prove my point while trying to disprove it. Sigh.
[1]So, why are they fundamentally different? Microsoft's monopoly, the unique dependence on software to make them useful, (and the unique characteristics of that software, relative to any physical good, including computers), the fact that they are general purpose machines to an extent that nothing else is, and on and on. You might find one of these exceptional circumstances in any field, but you're unlikely to find all of them anywhere else. Unless your analogy accounts for all of these and more, it's probably wrong.
My short, negative answer (Score:2)
The explanation why they declined was that the OS was a part of the package, just like a hard drive, and people are not expected to be able to return a HDD they don't like. They also mentioned that it's impossible for them to have OS-fr
Make sure (Score:2)
entitlement? (Score:2, Interesting)
Are you really entitled to a refund? Can you take apart any product and return the parts that you don't want? There are plenty of hardware devices (computer and otherwise) that would retain some functionality if you removed part of the system, but do you have the right to pick and choose what you feel you need, and return those that you don't, do you?
To use the (slightly flawed) car analogy, can I return the spare tire because I don't feel I need it and ask for $50 back
Re:entitlement? (Score:4, Informative)
Certainly in EULAs up to and including Windows 2000 there was a clause saying that, if you didn't agree with the EULA for Windows, one could take the shrink-wrapped box back to the vendor for a refund. I don't know if the WinXP EULA has such a clause however.
Re:entitlement? (Score:2)
Re:entitlement? (Score:2)
Re:entitlement? (Score:2)
Re:entitlement? (Score:3, Insightful)
the diff, of course, is that with computers that include windows, you have to agree to their license OR DEINSTALL IT. if you deinstall it, you should not have to pay for stuff you reject based on license terms.
there is no such agreement on, say, cd players in cars. if I buy a new car and don't want the cd player, rarely do I get 'credit' for removing it. that was an old old car dealer's trick
lawsuit? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, but you could sell that spare tire without the automobile manufacturer suing you.
Car analogy is flawed (Score:2)
For example, when I had to buy a new car (damn soccer moms in minivans not paying attention to where they are going!) I was very clear to the dealer: "No leather seats. Cloth Seats."
The dealer's response was "But leather seats are on sale right now - no added cost! A $900 value!"
"No. I do not want leather seats. They take more care than cloth. They are too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter unless they a
Not the point - think licenses (Score:5, Informative)
If he hasn't agreed, he can return it for a full refund. If no-one is willing to give him a refund then Microsoft is in breach of its own license.
OT: if MS has breached its requirements to a person, is that person then justified in breaching his/her requirements? For example, the one about not decompiling. Just a thought.
Re:Not the point - think licenses (Score:4, Informative)
No, just as with the GPL, under copyright law, Microsoft's license is the only thing that allows you to use their software at all, so technically if they breach their license, then you no longer are able to use that license to use the software, and are therefore in violation of copyright.
Hmmm, maybe this could be a new business plan for microsoft. Breach the license for Windows, thereby invalidating everyone's licenses, then sue the people still using windows over copyright infringement if they refuse to buy another license. (My gods, I should be sure to put this post on my resume for SCO and the RI/MPAA)
Re:Not the point - think licenses (Score:3, Interesting)
If you want to return the software, you have to return the item you bought, ie the computer.
Suppose you bought a digital camera, and it came with a memory card. You go to return the memory card to best buy (where you bought the camera), but they won't accept it because they didn't sell you a memory card. They sold you a ca
Article Text (Score:5, Informative)
http://216.239.59.104/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahtt p% 3A%2F%2Fwww.linuxjournal.com%2Farticle%2F7040
--------------
Getting a Windows Refund in California Small Claims Court
By Steve Oualline on Tue, 2003-07-29 23:00.
Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.
Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.
The first step to getting a refund is to ask for one. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.
It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.
Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.
Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?
Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.
Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?
Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.
Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?
Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.
Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.
Excuse: The software is only worth $10.
Answer: Okay. Send me the check.
Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.
But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.
Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?
You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.
Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.
You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.
One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.
Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.
In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a writ
Re:Article Text (Score:4, Funny)
I dunno, sounds like a better/more entertaining use of my time than, say, watching the latest incarnation of Survivor. Or standing in line to see Star Wars episode 3. Or filling in little boxes in my web browser with text in order to debate the effective uses of my time with anonymous cowards on slashdot.
Re:Article Text (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Article Text (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Article Text (Score:3, Funny)
Lists (Score:5, Informative)
I also have a page of linux-preinstalled and no-OS laptop vendors [mcelrath.org]. By my count there are at least 20 vendors that sell linux and no-os laptops, so nobody should have an excuse anymore for whining about not being able to find linux laptops.
P.S. All you currently looking for a laptop...please email me if anything on my list needs to be updated.
Hardly .... (Score:3, Funny)
Is Obtaining a Windows Refund Still Difficult?
No. It is practically impossible. Next question, please.
One question (Score:2)
Article Text (Score:5, Interesting)
Getting a Windows Refund in California Small Claims Court
By Steve Oualline on Tue, 2003-07-29 23:00.
Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.
Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.
The first step to getting a refund is to ask for one. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.
It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.
Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.
Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?
Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.
Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?
Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.
Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?
Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.
Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.
Excuse: The software is only worth $10.
Answer: Okay. Send me the check.
Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.
But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.
Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?
You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.
Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.
You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.
One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.
Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.
In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a written letter describing what was said and why you're unhappy with it. Remember you are creating a record for the judge.
At some point in this process you'll either get your r
pick the right vendor (Score:5, Funny)
I hear they're more difficult about OS X refunds, though.
Re:pick the right vendor (Score:4, Informative)
When Apple has ~95% of the personal computer market, then it will be the same question. As it is, it isn't.
I wonder, do you really need the money... (Score:2)
If MS and the manufacturers... (Score:3, Interesting)
But they will not do it because then they would fall foul of legislation in most places that forbids to tie in sales of one product (computer) only if you buy another (Windows).
The offer of the refund is not from the goodness of their hearts. Making almost imposible for consumers to get something they are entitled to is immoral and your criticism of people trying to get what is rightly theirs is ridicul
Find a nice refurb......... (Score:2)
Refund Day (Score:3, Interesting)
Last summer my wife bought a Toshiba notebook. It came with Windows XP Home and the manufacturer refused to send a real install cd. (Even with a new copy of Windows, though, the system was still cheaper than the other notebooks she looked at with comparable specs; this one cost US$1k, at which point IBM notebooks are barely getting started.) When she opened the bok, a sticker on the shrinkwrap said:
So, yeah, Toshiba won't let you return the operating system by itself.
Official Gateway line (Score:5, Informative)
You cannot buy a computer without Windows on it. We simply will not do it. The way the ordering system is set up we cannot get it to go through no matter how sympathetic we are. Likewise if you purchase the system Gateway has determined that you agreed to the license the moment you power on the system. If you decide not to accept the license they will only accept the return of the software if you return the entire system (this being true of any pre-installed software that you want to return).
In other words don't buy Gateway. Then again, even if you aren't interested in the refund don't buy Gateway. They sell crap and their customer service (employees, polcies, turn-around times, etc.) are crap. While I wouldn't have bought one before I started working there I sure as hell wouldn't now.
Re:Official Gateway line (Score:3, Interesting)
Here's my understanding of the situation. Before Microsoft's big legal case with half the states in the country, they could make manufacturers sign an agreement that they wouldn't sell systems with any other OS. But that was ruled anticompetitive and is no longer allowed. But that doesn't prevent MS from including a clause in their agreements with manufacturers that says they ca
DiscountLaptops.com ships GREAT laptops with no OS (Score:3, Insightful)
I can't recommend discountlaptops.com enough. I don't work for them or anything like that, I am just a happy, happy customer. You can bet my next laptop will be from them as well.
Toshiba's way around this problem (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Keep Windows (Score:2)
Re:Keep Windows (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Keep Windows (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why is everyone going nuts over this? (Score:2)
If the dealer includes speakers that cause you pain and lists them at 1/10th the cost of the car, you damn well do demand a refund.
Re:Take the easy way out... (Score:3, Funny)
Well, as a scam, no. Legitimately buying a single unit to evaluate, yes.
Of course, they actually did image the drive (I suspect it would cost take most major OEMs more than the price of a single copy of XP to change their standard McDonald's-like assembly line of PC creation for one machine), but waved a whopping $100 off the $3500 price tag.
And no, I don't refer to Dell specifically... Though from my experience with them, I strongly suspect they'd throw in a
Whose time, whose mney? (Score:3, Insightful)
Are you a regular guy that would be doing something else completely unproductive otherwise? Then your time is not worth as much as you think, saving 100 bucks could be worth the hassle.