Why Don't PDAs and Cellphones Use USB? 145
evolutionaryLawyer asks: "I have a RazrV3 phone and the charging interface is USB. This means if my cell phone is dying I get to pull a USB cable out of my bag, plug it into my laptop and charge it wherever I am, and at the same time data transfer is possible. This got me to thinking, why do all these cellphones, PDAs, and other devices use funky data and power interfaces when USB 2.0 is capable of providing both data and power in a universal format? I cannot think it is to sell cables, because I am sure they lose a lot of that to 3rd parties, not to mention that it has to be more expensive to design and manufacture these proprietary formats. Look at the PSP, it has both a power port, and a USB 2.0 port. Why shouldn't they cut out one?" While such a question is better asked of the cell phone manufacturers, it is unlikely that the average consumer would be able to get a straight answer. Can you think of plausible reasons as to why companies might be bypassing usable standards for their own proprietary cables, especially given the fact that there are third-party cables out there for just about every make and model of PDA or cellphone?
It makes sense to me (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It makes sense to me (Score:1)
Re:It makes sense to me (Score:5, Insightful)
And who says that you need to have both adapters?
Re:It makes sense to me (Score:2)
Re:It makes sense to me (Score:5, Informative)
That being said, the RazrV3 has the OPTION of charging off of USB. If the phone is dead it WILL NOT. This is because USB needs a signal negotiation before it will deliver the higher power available on USB 2.0. If the phone is dead, such negotiation is impossible. This is part of the reason that it's not done on more models.
Strangely, my Razr didn't come with a USB cable. It came with a regular wall plug. I don't need the USB (all my computers have bluetooth), but I was kind of surprised by this.
Re:It makes sense to me (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:It makes sense to me (Score:2)
Like these? [shopblackberry.com]
Re:It makes sense to me (Score:2)
Re:It makes sense to me (Score:1)
Re:It makes sense to me (Score:2)
Requires a wall wart either way (Score:2)
But USB power is limited. It might be too limited for recharging a cell phone.
Re:It makes sense to me (Score:1)
Re:It makes sense to me (Score:2)
engineers are the explination for this (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re:engineers are the explination for this (Score:2)
To make money. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:To make money. (Score:2)
Just because it has USB doesn't mean it has to be be treated as a removable drive, or if it is, that it has to accept everything you drag onto it.
Re:To make money. (Score:2)
Re:To make money. (Score:2)
Re:To make money. (Score:2)
I had an older phone whos manual told you how to create ringtons on the phone (mono of course) but it was disabled on the phone!
Phone Companies are very big fans of locking the consumer out of what should be the coolest features on the phones.
Re:To make money. (Score:2)
I actually haven't tried, because a cable for my Nokia 6225 would cost a lot, and I can't even afford an el-cheapo USB IR dongle (the 6225 has IR).
Re:To make money. (Score:2)
FWIW, I found a laptop with IR, and downloaded some games over to my phone. I know that I can download stuff over the Internet with my phone (haven't tried that, though - don't have the Vision plan, and they charge $0.01/kB if you don't have the plan), though.
Re:To make money. (Score:2)
By not putting standard interfaces on, people are forced to pay for ringtones, where if they had USB, they could just drag a MIDI right to the phone.
Word. Similarly, customers have to pay to transfer pictures off of their camera phones, which, combined with forcing of camera phones down customers throats makes for a nice profit source!
It seems like a nice solution would be the one Apple used for iPods---Firewire cable and a power brick that the Firewire cable can plug into in the absence of a PC---bu
Re:To make money. (Score:4, Informative)
I've seen about four posts saying this in this thread - and I'm browsing at +5.
Don't you guys have IrDA?
I'm in the UK, and pretty much every GSM phone I've come across in recent years has an IrDA port to connect to your laptop.
You can then go to the manufacturer's website and get a 'handset manager' program (aimed, I gather, at companies who want to give thier employees identical phonebooks and suchlike). You can then use the IR link to download and upload images, ringtones, operator logos (back when they existed), text messages, and phone books.
Does the US not have this?
Michael
Re:To make money. (Score:2, Informative)
A few phones, but they're mostly (if not all) GSM phones, which constitute (my guess) a little less than half of the US market. They tend to be higher-end models and smartphones (although my cheap T300 had IR.) Bluetooth is more common.
You can then use the IR link to download and upload images, ringtones, operator logos (back when they existed), text messages, and phone books.
At least on my Sony Ericsson, you didn't need any special software to transfer files or individual ph
Re:To make money. (Score:2)
The 6600 was the last model to have it.
It's Bluetooth all the way, sadly.
Re:To make money. (Score:2)
I can't think of any non-PDA/cellphones that include a IrDA port, so that's out as well... USB data cables are an option and fairly popular, but even that gets crippled on alot fo models...
I shoudl also mention GSM is less than 40% of the cellular network in the US an
Find it... (Score:2)
Best Buy
Circuit City
Radio Shack..
none of them stock IRDA adapters of any flavor.
PDA's with IR sure-- nothing for the IRDA port on your PC...
No- IRDA is not common enough in the USA
Re:To make money. (Score:2)
Actually, I think I'll grab the software - I'm at my college, where they've got laptops in the library with IrDA ports...
It's more than just power and USB (Score:2, Informative)
Re:It's more than just power and USB (Score:2)
Why do so many new devices still use RS-232 (or a varient) instead of using USB? Does USB require too much processing power verses a RS-232 connection?
In particular, we see many 'legacy free' desktop computers coming out now which only have USB connections. However, many embedded computing devices still have a serial port and no USB. It seems that a single tiny USB port would be more space efficient and versatile then a serial port.
Re:It's more than just power and USB (Score:3, Informative)
Because they have to talk to legacy equipment (e.g. GPS devices)?
Because USB is a master/slave arrangement, and you'd either have to provide both capabilities in the device, or settle for not being able to talk to USB peripherals?
Re:It's more than just power and USB (Score:2)
USB depends on a software controller in order to operate where serial does not and people have near constant problems with US
Re:It's more than just power and USB (Score:2)
RS-232 is a horrible protocol and hardware design. Its way too slow and distance is really limited where its not a differential system like RS-485, RS-422, ethernet and USB. But yet its still everywhere.
I like USB, personally I think everything outside the tower should be USB, even the montior(USB 2.0 is too sl
$$$ of course (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:$$$ of course (Score:2)
Camera Phones. (Score:3, Insightful)
Companies goals are to make money, not please the customer.
Re:Camera Phones. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Camera Phones. (Score:2)
You would think so, wouldn't you?
The most succesful companies train their customers to accept whatever business model is most profitable to that company. Success for these guys is making the customer want what they have, rather than making what the customer wants.
Re:Camera Phones. (Score:2)
Re:Camera Phones. (Score:2)
I ask because almost all camera phones have bluetooth and a USB dongle costs $5...
I don't have thorough sales data for mobile accessories, so all of this is conjecture of course.
Companies goals are to make money, not please the customer.
Thank you for your insight, but the argument is a bit circular, no? Perhaps to say "Companies goal is to satisfy the consumer just enough to profit maximise", or "companies goal is to make people money: employees, capital providers (shareholders) and give
Re:Camera Phones. (Score:2)
But it still seems like most phones have USB cables available from the manufacturer.
Re:Camera Phones. (Score:2)
The problem with your analysis is that the people who make the phones are not the people who are charging the data fees.
There are a lot of phones out there which can interface with a comput
Re:Camera Phones. (Score:2)
I would go so far as to say that this is also uninformed. We recently saw a post here on Slashdot about a phone that Apple had developed which was shot down by the major service providers precisely because it would eat into the profits that they had pr
Re:Camera Phones. (Score:2)
USB adds complexity (Score:5, Informative)
Power wise, USB really can't do more then 500mA of power at 5V. This is fine for cell phones like my T610 that get 450mA from the official charger at 4.7V. But for devices like the PSP, it would mean 4 times as long to charge, as the PSP power adaptor pushes out 2A or power at 5V.
Re:USB adds complexity (Score:5, Informative)
If the phone were a USB host, it would have to supply 500 mA of power through that connector.
Re:USB adds complexity (Score:2, Insightful)
It wouldn't *have* to. Not all USB ports provide 500 mA at all times.
Re:USB adds complexity (Score:2)
Re:USB adds complexity (Score:2, Informative)
Re:USB adds complexity (Score:2, Informative)
The standard 2.5 mm plug has been working fine for many manufacturers for years, while some still opt for propietary connectors. A USB host for headsets would be nice if the devices used the common USB headset profiles, but there's always the (much cooler) Bluetooth headsets.
Money, money, money (Score:2)
Re:Money, money, money (Score:2)
Cables have become somewhat cheaper these days -- I remember 3-4 years ago Nokia DataSuite + a cable to connect your phone to a PC would set you back almost half of what the phone costs. Not so anymore -- DS is a fr
USB doesn't provide much power (Score:5, Informative)
If they were to go to a standard connection Firewire might be nice at 12-60Wats.
But in the mean time, they'll generally use custom connectors for charging.
Re:USB doesn't provide much power (Score:3, Informative)
Re:USB doesn't provide much power (Score:2)
Re:USB doesn't provide much power (Score:2)
As to why companies don't make sure that 500mW is enough, I can't answer that.
Re:USB doesn't provide much power (Score:2)
500mA at 5V, so 2.5W. But you're right; that's woefully insufficient for charging.
USB power limits (Score:2, Redundant)
Re:USB power limits (Score:1)
Re:USB power limits (Score:2)
What the TFA was talking about is that there are many (small) proprietary connectors on phones and some PDAs that require a special cable to link up to USB or a charger.
I assume that a lot of these are designed with space in mind (the chassis is rather small on a cell or PDA). They don't want to put one charging connector, one programming
more than just power.... (Score:1)
500mA per device (Score:4, Informative)
----
A: 500mA per USB port. See section 7.2.3 for the details of device behavior during suspend and resume.
----
Presumably this has something to do with it. HTH. HAND.
Re:500mA per device (Score:2)
The answer, while sad, is surprisingly simple. (Score:5, Insightful)
Camera phone? Take all the photos you like, but it's X cents per photo to get them of your phone. Address book backup? Sure, it's only X dollars a month for automatic backups! Want games on your Java enabled phone? Sure, we have a selection here for $4.99 per game per month (sorry, you can only select from this menu). Want some GREW games? We have those too (sorry, you can't code your own, BREW is proprietary).
Handset manufacturers would love to put these features in for users, but they don't because then the cell phone companies won't sell the phones and wont support them if purchesed through other channels.
Re:The answer, while sad, is surprisingly simple. (Score:4, Informative)
Ditto for power (Score:2)
Part of this is the branding or design philosophy of the service provider. In my case, they got it right. Their connector is much easier to use than the one the handset company sells.
Ill tell you why you cant, even with a V3 (Score:4, Informative)
another problem, is that to charge a dead phone you need a motorola(TM) razr(TM) usb charger, which arent very redily available yet.
another problem is that a USB port cant provide enough juice to both charge the phone, and make a call. if you talk on USB power, your phone will eventually go into a totally dead state (see above for how fun that is).
yet another problem, is that file transfer over USB isnt possible (it might be with additional software). I can exchange ringtones and pictures only via bluetooth, and can sync a phone book only with USB. totally wierd.
For their customers (Score:2, Informative)
Assured Power Supply (Score:3, Interesting)
By supplying a proprietary charger they can know that you won't accidentally damage the phone.
I've never checked, but I'd wager that the power on a USB port can have a lot of variation, especially if you're using a cheapo $6.99 USB hub from Big Lots [biglots.com].
Re:Assured Power Supply (Score:2)
IANAEE, but you can protect your hardware with a switching regulator [wikipedia.org]. You can also ensure correct polarity by using a bridge rectifier, if your regulator chip doesn't provide that functionality for you.
Also take a look at the 'pedia's info on DC to DC converters [wikipedia.org].
Money (Score:1)
iPod (Score:1)
Not enough power (Score:2, Redundant)
BlackBery 7100 series does (Score:3, Interesting)
Not even a cradle on the 7100 series. Uses a regular USB cable (rectangular plug to the micro plug). Same cable I use to connect to my Sony digital camera. It syncs and charges over it. Even the wall charger is a USB cable with a transformer on the end. It is quite nice to charge off the computer this way.
I do wish it had a cradle, as the plugging and unplugging is a little annoying (the plug is on the left side of the unit). Great for portability though.
-m
More complicated (Score:3, Insightful)
The current USB charger cables out there are just a bit of wire with a USB plug on one end and whatever plug you need at the other end. It assumes that the laptop/computer will always supply power and be capable of supplying everything it needs. If you plug in your T68i on a bus powered hub then you'll get some interesting problems.
Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, you'd have Cletus trying to plug his USB 2.0 camcorder into the cell phone, and ruining either or both of the devices.
Plugging a cell phone into a USB port is ok, plugging *almost anything else* into a cell phone's USB port is a recipe for disaster.
Oh how soon we forget (Score:2, Insightful)
Line strength, ee considerations, connector size/design are sloving evolving, but they do evolve. By having a multitude of designs, each device can solve the problem as they best see fit. Adherance to a connectivity standard is but one design issue. I like USB 2.0, but when 3.0 comes out, I sure don't want my device to wait for a "market shift" before I can get one. I want them to compete ruthlessly for ever
Power connectors really arent THAT propreitary (Score:4, Interesting)
I can also see it as protection, if you can physically connect up a USB-power only cable to something that isnt expecting power on its USB port then someone will do so and destroy it.
Sell the phone at a loss, profit on consumables? (Score:2)
Because USB jacks suck. Duh. (Score:4, Funny)
(sweetly:) Next question please?
Re:Because USB jacks suck. Duh. (Score:3, Insightful)
100% agreed (Score:2)
Of course if it locked, I'd just drag the hub off too
(Oh FYI those tiny $10 usb hubs from walmart do work well, amazingly enough, although their max cable length seems to be about 9 feet for high speed data transfer)
SB
Many Cell Phones & PDA's can be charged by USB (Score:2, Interesting)
I would not want to wait to charge my Treo via USB, though. It takes forever! I forget what wattage the USB port is limited to, but it's far less than the real charger for my Treo.
Re:Many Cell Phones & PDA's can be charged by (Score:2)
It's also good to top off the phone if you forget to charge it, which I've been known to do every so often. Sure, it's not ideal, and if you've got a dead phone, it's the crappiest charging solution you can come up with, but most of
USB needs more flexible power system. (Score:5, Insightful)
There are problems with USB 2 when it comes to power. What do you get, 5v, 500ma? Not enough to do much with. True, there are devices as large as flatbed scanners that can run entirely off this power, but it's not much.
If you try to come up with USB 3, however, and specify that it should supply more power, the problem will be that maybe the computer can't supply that much due to its power supply and requirements, etc. Which brings me to the next point: USB 3 should have some sort of specification that says a computer can decide how much power to supply through USB, based on factors like its own power usage. Then, when you plug in a device, it would automatically figure out if it has enough power or not, and perhaps a message could pop up on the computer, telling you that you're trying to overload the USB power supply.
Of course, then you'd have to take into consideration the gauge and insulation of the USB wire itself, and you'll end up with the need to put a tiny chip into compatible wires which would tell the computer what the max current carrying capacity of that cable is rated at. This all sounds quite complicated, but there's no reason why a computer can't push more power out of a USB port if all these things are taken into consideration, and all the proper power handshaking takes place from the USB port down the chain (if there are hubs, etc. in the way) all the way to individual devices. Also, you're probably not using all devices in max-power-usage mode at the same time, so the devices might talk to each other and enter power-save mode when necessary to allow other devices to be used.
This seems, again, like a very complicated solution looking for a problem, but it shouldn't be too difficult to do for next-generation USB devices, and the advantages are pretty big: Right here on my desk, I have a 6-outlet strip that isn't enough. Currently plugged in are my laptop, Mac Mini, 17" display, ethernet hub, and printer; These are just the computer peripherals. I also have, in the same area, a phone charger, small television, desk lamp, and DVD player. I need a USB hub for the Mac Mini because there simply aren't enough ports on it for all the crap I'd like to have plugged in at one time; therefore, I have so far refrained from buying a USB hub. There are not enough outlets on this wall to handle all of this. If I add another strip, I'll probably blow a fuse if all of this is on at the same time. A new USB protocol which takes into consideration a whole range of power options, negotiated in real-time by the devices themselves as they are plugged in, used, and removed, and taking into consideration the power-supplying capability of the computer, the capacity of the wires themselves, and the usage of the devices, really offers an opportunity to remove many plugs from many devices that would otherwise need them, and to greatly reduce the number of wires running across and under many desks; This would require more careful engineering by already-overworked electronics engineers who are concerned about power consumption, but I believe that with added innovation, increased customer demand for this kind of service, and the advances made each day in semiconductors, this will provide so much value for the consumer that it's worth it.
Re:USB needs more flexible power system. (Score:2)
Um, they do? (Score:2)
An even higher portion of modern PDAs do.
Both the palmOne Treo 600 and 650 smartphones have USB charging cables available for reasonable prices. I'm not quite sure why they don't come with one by default, the "standard" sync cable is kind of crappy.
As to not using standard USB connectors on the phone - They're the wrong form factor. USB connectors are WAY too large, especially considering that numerous other connections (audio I/O
Buy a smart phone (Score:2, Informative)
I found a phone that let me do this. I got the MPX220 smart phone. This phone connects through USB both for charging and data tranfer. I just plug in and drag an mp3 or midi to the phone and I have a new ring tone. My phone also plays music. I have minor complaints about some of the software but overall I'm very happy with this phone.
Stop whinning about your phone. Get a better one. Phone
They do (Score:2)
America != Cheap tech (Score:4, Informative)
Power consumption - that's why! (Score:2)
I would like one though - imagine putting a printer on the camera phone, or putting a real keyboard
What? (Score:2)
My current phone has a USB cable option, but it also has bluetooth, so I don't really need USB anymore... but it's there if I do.
Re:What? (Score:2)
Re:But they *do* (Score:3, Insightful)
A: Because they can? Regardless, Sony would have a weird proprietary version within a month of the rest of the industry picking a standard. They'd call it Secure Sync (R), and charge you $85 for the privilege of not being to upload MP3s.
Re:But they *do* (Score:2)
Pick any desktop pc in sony's product line. Replace each piece of hardware with the best hardware out there that meets the same list of specs, add 40
Re:No money to be made (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Its the size that counts (Score:2, Informative)
Not as common on larger devices, but it is found increasingly in small devices like digital cameras.
Re:Its the size that counts (Score:3)
The USB/regular power plug on the motorola is quite tiny, just as it needs to be, for a phone like this. Most cell phones have a plug that is much larger than this beca