Work Samples and the Non-Disclosure Agreement? 88
ahowl asks: "At my previous employer, I signed a traditional NDA, and when I was laid off, I signed another agreement stating I wasn't taking anything with me that belonged to the company. This included all the scripts, stored procedures, and anything else that I had created while employed. However, most of the subsequent jobs that I was looking at wanted work samples. If this continues I could have a ton of work I've done that I can't show anyone, so what can I do?"
Do some outside work (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Do some outside work (Score:2)
p.s. Honestly, I would hire your ass if you can't show me things that you have done outside of work!
Re:Do some outside work (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Do some outside work (Score:1)
Re:Do some outside work (Score:1)
Alternately, since your writing code for a living, you can always just put together some source (even if it isn't in production somewhere) just to show some of the processes and your coding style etc. When I have asked for samples in the past I wanted to see more what type of commenting, variable naming etc was used.
'cause we all know you can write the same thing a dozen different ways... some JavaScript examples.
or
Incredibly simple (and obvious) solution. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Incredibly simple (and obvious) solution. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Incredibly simple (and obvious) solution. (Score:1)
Well, some crimes aren't [sptimes.com].
Hobby Work (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Hobby Work (Score:2)
At my job I work a lot over the weekends and during the evenings to get stuff done. I'm an idiot and do stuff "off the record" because I'd rather hit a deadline with a finished product than deal with the red tape of going over the number of hours I'm contracted for.
So, if I started looking fo
Easy (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Easy (Score:5, Insightful)
What? (Score:3, Interesting)
Usually they go by the interview and stuff like that.
They probably are asking for code samples that you have written outside of work. If you haven't written any... well, write some! Especially if you're not working anyway, you have plenty of time available, no? Consider it part of the job searching process.
Still seems a little bizarre to even be asked for code sample in the first place though. I have to think that this only happened at one specific company and now you think all companies are like that.
Re:What? (Score:3, Interesting)
I was asked to bring code samples from my previous experience to the job interview for my current job. They basically want an idea of your coding style, they're not going to steal any IP. I had permission from my previous job to show code samples for this sort of thing.
Re:What? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:What? (Score:2)
Re:What? (Score:2)
Sure you can try to make it look different but you will not be nearly as efficient when you are trying to replicate other handwriting.
Re:What? (Score:3, Insightful)
I
Re:What? (Score:1)
I completely agree. I often ask for code samples when I'm interviewing programmers. If somebody were foolish enough to bring in IP from a former employer, there's no way I'd hire them; I don't have time to ride herd on the clueless.
Also, if somebody doesn't have any of their own personal code laying around, or some open
Re:What? (Score:1)
I've had contracts that (if I hadn't insisted on altering them) would have prohibited me from working on outside code, because I was supposed to direct my "full productive effort" to my corporate masters.
Re:What? (Score:1)
I can imagine certain circumstances where that would even be legit. If somebody had worked for many years at PARC or Google or someplace that's more a lifestyle than a job, I could buy that they put everything they had into work, and that the employer keeping all the code would be reasonable.
But otherwis
Re:What? (Score:2)
Re:What? (Score:1)
Not just no outside code, but according to a strict reading pretty much no outside anything, as I was supposed to direct my "full productive effort" to my corporate masters. As I read that, I couldn't even teach my karate classes in the evenings [seidomd.com]. It was the contracting company's standard wording.
This was in Annapolis MD, which would generally be part of the D.C. Metro area, in 2000. So neither a backwater nor a bust time,
Re:What? (Score:1)
Re:What? (Score:1)
Yes, it does happen. I've had two or three potential employers ask for such a thing. Usually my response is "sorry, don't have the rights to do that"...though last time it came up, I was at least able to give them a few hundred line Perl script I'd hacked up for my own purposes.
Re:What? (Score:1)
Re:What? (Score:2)
Speak nicely to your old boss (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Speak nicely to your old boss (Score:3, Interesting)
That said, the knowledge in your head is yours, n
Re:Speak nicely to your old boss (Score:2)
Re:Speak nicely to your old boss (Score:1)
Re:Speak nicely to your old boss (Score:5, Insightful)
A code sample would very rarely consist of an entire functional program, or need to provide a window into the IP of a company.
It may consist of a function that was re-written in the code base. Or it might be a subroutine with comments indicating what this subroutine does, what parameters it may require, and what it returns. It may also consist of a set of requirements, so that a prospective employer can determine if you can program to the requirements.
I would be very surprised if any developer has not worked on some project that snippets of code they developed would not be available for outside review. Projects that were canceled or never went into production would be prime candidates for places to look. Granted even those generate functions that developers re-use in other projects that are completed, but they are a place to look.
-Rusty
Re:Speak nicely to your old boss (Score:1)
I would be very surprised if any developer who hasn't worked for a company that released someting open source would have code legitimately available for outside review.
The code I write for employers is "for hire". When I leave the company I have no legal rights to it. None. Zero. I can't take copies with me when I leave, I can't distribute copies to o
Re:Speak nicely to your old boss (Score:2)
If you wrote scripts for a hospital, then a your next IT department might want to see something you have written before.
If you are working on proprietary code that is another story.
Ok, here's what you do (Score:3, Insightful)
Assuming you still have the work you did saved somewhere acaccessible.
Put together some work samples that you believe present no possible harm to your previous employee, Do whatever you have to to make them safe (perhaps print them out, draw permanent marker over sensitive parts and scan them back in!)
Email/mail the samples to your previous supervisor, and write the same message you wrote to slashdot here, but more emotional. Say you want to run your work samples by her to make sure they're ok. (emphasize how careful you'll be not to let anyone keep them or make copies)
If he is reasonable then he'll ok, at least parts of your work samples.
If not go to plan B:
Plan B:
Write some new samples! Spend up to a week writing a quick application that highlights your skills. It's time well spent and shows an employer that you program on your own time, and that you're self-motivated.
Keep up all updated, we're all wishing you the best of luck!
Re:Ok, here's what you do (Score:2)
"I HAVE NOTHING" NDA on his way out..
and you want him to send samples of the very content covered by the contract he signed to the ex employer?
sheya! that'll go over VERY WELL
Why?? (Score:3, Insightful)
You are in a difficult position, my sympathies.
Why did you sign? Did they offer a greater severance if you signed? You have no reason to sign or agree to anything new when you're being terminated unless there is a benefit to you. You've already lost your job...
But even if you didn't sign, that wouldn't help much, since you're still covered by the orignal NDA.
You might show a copy of the old NDA to the new company and explain that's why you can't show them examples. Or ask the old company to allow you to show the new company a few things.
Re:Why?? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Why?? (Score:1)
nda the nda? (Score:2)
Kind of: If you show the code to the old company they will kill (sue) me, but i will kill(sue) you for doing that.
And as said before, i think if you print some sheets with code they will get an idea what you write, but without context this is no real use to them.
Write new stuff... (Score:1)
It's a Trap! (Score:2)
Re:It's a Trap! (Score:1)
Think & Negotiate a One-Off NDA Variation (Score:3, Informative)
C'mon, people, just because you signed an NDA
doesn't mean you can't get a variation agree-
ment for a small, useful bit of code that you
are proud of...
I'd make it a habit of getting such an agree-
ment (ie, variation) as early as possible, eg
even during the signing of the NDA itself.
Why not try adding a write-in clause (do it a
bit professionally, eg, by sticking-on a pre-
printed label, maybe) that says something like:
"... small work sample(s) may be shown,
but not left in the possession of other
organisation(s), exclusively when inter-
viewing for other positions.
Such samples will not include 's
trade secrets, etc."
You lawyer should be able to help you with
the details...
I've done it in reverse... (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course, I haven't worked for jerks, at least in this regard, that there was never a problem over it. The license is clearly stated and the code (or at least a really old version... gotta update that) is available on Sourceforge.
Put Easter Eggs in your websites (Score:2)
If it is an application that the prospective employer have, demonstrate your name by asking them to pull down a "Help->About" menu and show off your names, even if you put an easter egg in that menu (to get around your last boss's stingyness.)
Good luck...
Re:Put Easter Eggs in your websites (Score:2)
sounds similar to what my dad told me once (Score:2)
The only risk point I see here is the new employer finding out that you violated an NDA. Most employer NDA's are enforced with termination, which has already happened to you.
Re:sounds similar to what my dad told me once (Score:2)
And suppose your NDA violation becomes common knowledge? Hard to get a job if nobody who might hire you trusts you.
As for your father's story -- there's no law against do non-original research. But once your invention or discovery leaves the lab and enters the marketplac
Re:sounds similar to what my dad told me once (Score:2)
I have never heard of a case where criminal prosecution was pursued on someone who shared a code sample for a job interview... nor for any other situation that didn't involve using that information for direct financial gains. If you know where we can find examples of this, I would be grateful, as I'm likely to be ignorant of these cases since IANAL.
I agree that
Re:sounds similar to what my dad told me once (Score:2)
I admit that you're unlikely to face criminal prosecution for disclosing a few lines of source code. All the same, stealing confidential information is a crime.
easy (Score:2)
you're missing the obvious answer... (Score:2)
Show them work you did at your former job, NDA be damned.
NDAs are there so companies feel comfy and secure - don't let it impede your quest for a better job. Your company doesn't want to sue you, and they have nothing to gain by doing it, even if they know you're doing this. Now if you're giving up company secrets, that might be something else, but a straightforward work example isn't going to hurt them and isn't going to be worth their time to care about.
Re:you're missing the obvious answer... (Score:1)
I wouldn't recommend this.
If you show them code that you wrote under NDA, and they can see that you're wilfully ignoring the contract with your former employer, then why wouldn't they assume you'd be just as prepared to ignore any parts of their contract?
It shows you to be an untrustworthy employee, with scant regard for contracts. Whether this is true or not, you don't want to advertise it in your interview.
Do you really want to work for them? (Score:1)
Use generic code (Score:2)
It also doesn't hurt to tell somebody that you signed an NDA and as a result feel like you can't show them any specific code from your previous job. They should respect that as they would probably require you to sign t
If you are confident in your skills (Score:4, Interesting)
Or you could ask them if they have some code laying around that you could work with, you could then spend a little time improving or adding to a project that they are working on, there's nothing like actually demonstrating your usefulness.
Re:If you are confident in your skills (Score:1)
It's really hard to imagine a company using such a lame method of getting free labour, but that seemed to be what was happening.
Re:If you are confident in your skills (Score:1)
Re:If you are confident in your skills (Score:1)
Re:If you are confident in your skills (Score:2)
Before you sign anything consult a lawyer (Score:5, Informative)
The guy I use charges $150/hour. Reviewing a standard NDA takes about ... 1 hour. As a result, I've avoided signing things that would make a paper smeared with pig feces more attractive.
Before you sign anything consult a lawyer
Think about how much money you could potentially lose because you can't show your potential future employer any samples. Is that work 150 bones?
So.
Before you sign anything consult a lawyer
Re:Before you sign anything consult a lawyer (Score:3, Funny)
Laid off (Score:3, Insightful)
WTF?! You allowed them to damage your resume and job search for no reason. Too many people are allowing corporations to control them by contracts. If you are out of school, dont sign your future away, they will let you go when times get tough, look after yourself first.
Sheesh, maybe after everyone realizes that 100 hour weeks, no vacation, and NDA's are not worth after you are laid off and alone.
Re:Laid off (Score:2)
Usually, these are required for a severance agreement. No signature? No severance. It's also pretty difficult to negotiate these things. I got laid off from a dot-com gig in 2001, and wasn't compensated for the vacation time that I didn't use. They were well within their rights was in to withhold it (according to state employment laws), but I worked hard for them, and didn't take any of it; so I tried to negotiate for wh
in California, vacation earned is paid on layoff (Score:2)
http://lawzilla.com/content/ca-emp-002.shtml
Yes; Redundent, but rewarding... (Score:4, Insightful)
Enter Open Source (Select "Redundent" now...)!
I started about a year back by just subscribing to the devel lists of about 15-20 different open-source apps that I used regularly (and a few that I didn't... but that interested me).
My initial motivation was "Lets get my name somewhere on the 'credits' list and then I can add that to my resume", but that wore off quickly. I discovered that there was an incredible number of people who were far more capable at writing code than I was. So I took the opportunity to learn from them.
Books, college classes, on-the-job learning and experience are all thrown away...if you find a good complicated project dealing in programming languages you don't understand and concepts you haven't explored, you'll eat it right up and it will have a ripple effect throughout your entire skillset (no matter how unrelated the project may be to your current work).
So my advice (and point): Find some projects that are appealing to you, subscribe and read the devel mailing lists: you'll benefit. Even if you don't get the opportunity to "showcase your work", you'll become far better at your trade... and that might be obvious enough to an interviewer to make providing examples of your work irrelevant.
Funny you should ask... (Score:2)
There was a similar discussion two weeks ago on Perl Monks: Code Samples and Previous Employers [perlmonks.org]
(Although in that case, it was when an interviewer pushed him to violate his NDA)
Obvious Question (Score:2)
Why'd you sign anything after they laid you off? What were they going to do if you didn't sign - let you go?
Re:Obvious Question (Score:3, Insightful)
One solution (Score:2)
Oh that was smart. (Score:1, Flamebait)
Sue? (Score:1)
Open Source (Score:2)
Generalities vs Specifics (Score:2)
The conclusion I came too, after talking to my old boss (with whom I still get along, and hold no
Why did you sign? (Score:1)
If they wanted you to sign something as you left the company, it seems to me that they didn't make you sign it when you were hired. You signed a standard NDA, but they didn't make you sign anything stating that whatever you produce is their sole property and you aren't allowed to keep a copy. How do I know this? Because if you had signed it at the start of the job, they wouldn't need you to sign it at the end. Once is enough.
It seems like their legal department goofed and tried to fix the problem. Now, I
Re:Why did you sign? (Score:2)
Re:Why did you sign? (Score:2)
Re:Why did you sign? (Score:2)
The also use those to keep you in the job until they are ready for you to go. "Your getting laid off in two months, Stay the whole time and get this juicy check"
Go the open-source or written at home route (Score:2)
1. Do not violate the NDA. Just not worth it. It might be evil and unreasonable, but if you violate it, then how does your prospective employer have any faith that you won't do that to them? Answer: they don't.
2. Write some code. Write it at home. Show that to prospective employers. I know that when I've interviewed folks for my employer, I always ask if they have any code samples that they've written outside of work that they would be able to show me. That way, I'm not asking th