Education Qualifications for a Network Admin? 103
Volkov137 asks: "As I ponder where to go after high school for a future job in Network Administration, I have a couple of choices. Either go to a University and get a 4-year bachelors degree in Computer Networking and Administration, or go to a 2-year trade school that will be much more focused on what I need to know. Is the University really worth paying for, and will it mean anything more in today's IT world? Also, how important are certifications (Network+, Cisco, Linux+, etc) when entering this job market?"
Goto a University (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Goto a University (Score:2, Informative)
If you're looking to be a lead product developer on major software products or something, that's great. Go get your education. If you're just looking to do IT work, you can learn all you need to know about the major languages, hardware and sys
Re:Goto a University (Score:4, Insightful)
It always annoys me when people present college and "real-world experience" as they they were a mutually exclusive dichotomy.
How do you think many people pay for college? You don't have to get a crappy job in the school cafeteria. Plenty of people find "real-world" jobs that they can work at part-time while getting their four-year degree. Yes, in total you'll have a bit less experience than the people from two-year schools, but you won't be completely bereft of it.
Disclaimer: I know nothing about computer network, I just know plenty of people who held real jobs that they could actually put on their resume during college, including myself.
Re:Goto a University (Score:1)
Re:Goto a University (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Goto a University (Score:2)
Not everyone wastes the time inbetween classes by drinking, partying, or otherwise screwing around, you know.
By the time I finished my 4-year degree, I also had 2 1/2 years of real-world experience from co-op jobs and other work. In fact, the degre
Re:Goto a University (Score:3, Insightful)
Universitys are wonderfull things for broadening your horizons to many things and giving you a good expanse of knowlidge on a plethora of topics.
However if you really want to get down to working , you will be far better with Work training.
That said
Re:Goto a University (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Goto a University (Score:1)
If it's chicks you want, forget IT and go for one of the biological sciences. ;-)
Re:Goto a University (Score:2)
Better idea. (Score:3, Insightful)
Jump right in somewhere that is willing to hire you. Work hard, establish a good chunk of resume material from that company and then move onward if necessary after a couple years. Nothing beats real world experience and I've found that people who learned what they know through their own passion and desire (and real world implementation) tend to be far more enthusiastic and adaptable and quick to learn new concepts and skills and frameworks than people who just sat in a chair at a university or trade school for a handful of years, learning soon to be outdated material from professors or instructors who rarely implement their own knowledge in a real environment.
Not to mention, things in the real work environment are rarely anything like what you've learned in school and you'll have to be broken of your old habits.
Re:Better idea. (Score:2)
I decided to be a systems admin because i love tinkering with systems. Always have , Probably always will.
I learnt mostly from my own experiance( playing around with systems since i was tiny) , partly from work experiance(the way it works outside the sandbox) and partly from Training(the theory behind the reality and a quick start to a new system).
On the job training is the best
Re:Better idea. (Score:3, Interesting)
I dropped out of the 9th grade and have been pulling down close to six figures since I came of drinking age. That was some time ago. I have a respectable resume and accomplished what I have through nothing more than working hard, being reliable, being productive, learning new concepts and constantly proving myself to people.
The most important skill you can ever have is comprehension. More important than "do you know xyz" is "can you learn xyz". If you can
Re:Better idea. (Score:2)
This is why more than nearly anything , the IT industry is an industry for those who live the lifestyle
Hell , I admin for a job and what am i doing in my free time(besides having a glass of martini) well im currently setting up a server just to play around with it and learning a few new services while im at it.
Youve really got to have the passion
Re:Better idea. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Better idea. (Score:2)
I dropped out in 10th grade due to the unchallenging environment and instantly started at 30k just for my computer knowledge in '98. I was later down sized after being forced to train my Indian replacement and now I'm in Germany looking for a GS position with the government. If I went to Iraq as a contractor I would easily pull in 100k+... My wife wants me to stay here as a spouse, so here I sit.
Now, Ive also "discovered" that I really
Re:Better idea. (Score:2)
OK, but although also anecdotally, I suspect this is far more typical: I graduated from an excellent high school with fine grades, but not knowing a damn thing about how to do the kinds of things a network admin needs to know how to do. I'm not talking about knowing how to use the tools of the trade, but knowing what do do with them. Anyone who m
Re:Better idea. (Score:2, Informative)
So that was the last straw for me, I'm going back to school this fall to finish off my BA.
Re:Better idea. (Score:2)
You know someplaces they do keep a count of certificats for choosing interview candidates, i found this out purely by acident once when my Chainsaw certificate came up in a IT job interview(I used to work as a forest ranger/arboriculturist) as relevant experiance.
It turned out the company just took a literal list of the certs/ degrees from the application form and choose canditates due to it
Sometimes i fe
Re:Better idea. (Score:1)
Re:Better idea. (Score:3, Insightful)
Go to the University. You'll get to work with some very cool hardware that you'll never get to go near once you're out in the real world.
For the real-world experience, pick up some consulting gigs (always found on bulletin board postings/flyers around the school campus). While I was in college, I did $3,000 in consulting work in a single semester and I basically paid for that semester and then some.
Also, try to work for the University's Campus Network (ours was called ACNS @ FSU). If you're just
Re:Better idea. (Score:1)
Re:Better idea. (Score:1)
Bad idea. (Score:2)
Unfortunately, lack of a degree is what gets your resume pitched without having been looked at. (and I say that from experience, in having to sort through stacks of resumes).
Resumes are more than just a piece of paper to say that you know something (which you probably don't, give today's educational systems) -- it's a piece of paper that says that you stuck with something for 4 year
Univ gives options (Score:5, Informative)
Also, don't forget that the older you get, the harder it is to go to school.
Re:Univ gives options (Score:2, Insightful)
How so? The older you get, the more advanced you probably are in your career and the more money you probably have saved up. Rather than starving and living on top ramen for four years, you could probably take significant time off work (having a better relationship with your employer due to seniority by this time, perhaps) and afford all of your tuition and text books. Much easier than scrounging around living in a cramped little
Re:Univ gives options (Score:3, Interesting)
University courses are geared to high-energy teens and twenties people. The workload might not seem all that high at the time, but when you're older it can also be harder to learn new things, at least partly becuase you have to unlearn a lot of assumptions.
A common reason to go back to school is a career change and all that knowledge you picked up doesn't help you as much as you might think.
But if you're going back
Re:Univ gives options (Score:2)
I would still go to University. It provides a lot of flexibilty, especially if you are smart and take a broad range of courses.
Re:Univ gives options (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm now researching making holograms while studying physics in my own time. I rarely use a computer except to read slashdot and hobbiest coding (which is the best sort of coding).
Funny how life changes. A degree can open up your options.
Re:Univ gives options (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Univ gives options (Score:1)
Re:Univ gives options (Score:2)
Re:Univ gives options (Score:2)
Re:Technical School (Score:2, Insightful)
Then again, if you can find a place that's both affordable and respected, go for it. But you're still just going to be learning things that you co
Re:General Education (Score:2)
Your advice, while common, isn't really feasible in today's schools. It is no longer possible to get a truly useful, truly "general" education without spending eight years in undergrad. Unless you're independently wealthy, or completely aimless, you wouldn't want to do that.
Even then, you'd need to have a total fuckoff as an advisor. The University's goal is to crank out as many future contributors as possible. They don't want to let people hang around tak
Re:Technical School (Score:1)
I know that at my school (www.ketttering.edu) we do have practical skills, job experience, and the theory. There are several other schools just like Kettering. I recommend one if you are worried about experience.
Re:Technical School (Score:1)
Re:Technical School (Score:1)
As far as money goes, you can and will get financial aid.
Re:Technical School (Score:1)
Re:Technical School (Score:1)
From experience as a consultant and a small-time admin, I'd tell you that the best way to learn networking is hands on, buildin
Re:Technical School (Score:2, Insightful)
Answer: Because he may want to do something else later in his life. A 4 year degree may not solve everything and land you the cushy job or whatever, but it will give you a more diverse background.
I really think a university degree is useful (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I really think a university degree is useful (Score:1)
I'm not saying that a lot of the information isn't interesting or doesn't make one knowledgable, but there is a great disconnect between "educators" and employers as to exactly wh
Re:I really think a university degree is useful (Score:1)
Funny that you say that, because I know an ECE major at my school that used the materials labs to do just that.
Incidentally, that is why you should pick a university that has something to do with the "real world". I recommend Rensselaer PolyTech (www.rpi.edu) or Kettering U (www.kettering.edu).
If you can write a software RAID driver and can't understand implementatio
Tools of the Trade (Score:3, Interesting)
If your more intrested in the Theory and constructing networks, then the university would be more you thing
However if your more intrested in running systems and their upkeep and maintenance
As for Certs , unfortunatly they have become a nesecity in our day and age
A little bit of paper saying your qualified to do A:B:C:D etc are what many employers look at when selecting candidates to interview , but choose carefully. Some really are total fluff whilst others will give you a really solid grounding in a system.
Re:Tools of the Trade (Score:2)
Re:Tools of the Trade (Score:2)
However if you want a good way of telling if a cert is usefull to You , then try and think of real world examples of how you could use it
They are all only as usefull as what they teach you.
Re:Tools of the Trade (Score:2)
Which is what I consider "worth nothing".
Sure, having some certs on your resume can help you get it past the resume-shredder in the HR dept at some places. But frankly, I wouldn't want to work for a PHB who insisted that I have a cert of some kind, when it's obvious from the rest of my resume and a reference check or two that I'm qualified. That kind of rigid bureaucracy or myopia is a warning sign that I'd be miserable there.
I
Re:Tools of the Trade (Score:2)
Thats just it , back then they wern't needed, and you had the time to pick up a bucket load of experiance which should send you skyrocketing in the eyes of any half way qualified PHB.
If your new , and can't get work then it may be the only way you have to shine above the other applicants.
Dont get me wrong , I really do hate the fact that these stupid bits of paper have replaced the need for competent Human resources departments. Though it ape
Re:Tools of the Trade (Score:1)
Re:Tools of the Trade (Score:2)
Not Generic in the sense of "Average and undistinguishable course" but generic in the sence of "Teaches you to handle Administration not a specific system" , they are not cheap , well the good ones , But they do help alot
So couldn't recomend any over there , but Im sure plenty of folks would be able to point you in
Is it really necessary? (Score:4, Informative)
On the other hand, large networks are where the real fun is. I'd say which schooling to get depends on your long-term goals. There is a lot of theory involved in network design (including a lot of math). A technical program will skip over most of this, which you will regret if you want to do the really important stuff. If you're just looking for a 9-5 and actual implementation, or just smaller networks, you'll probably find the technical program more to your liking.
Re:Is it really necessary? (Score:2)
Re:Is it really necessary? (Score:2)
Reading a book can't go on a resume. A summer internship is the best place to learn the basics, beefs up the resume, and can provide valuable references (or even a job) for the future.
Re:Is it really necessary? (Score:2)
Re:Is it really necessary? (Score:2)
That might be enough for getting an internship or, if you're lucky, a first job. However, after that, being able to speak confidently from work experience carries 10x the weight of "familiar with". If a person really did help to install a network, that means a lot, IMO. Being able to recite all the OSI network layers from a book is nice, but it lacks a component of real responsibility.
This also extends to non-job things, too. There's a reason why joining a club or taking up a sport is significant, esep
Learning over content (Score:3, Insightful)
The content - the specific details - that you learn in school may or may not be applicable in 5-10 years. However, your ability to retrain yourself and gain new skills will always apply when you are motivated. Make sure you education is flexible enough to serve you long-term.
Trade school is best (Score:2, Interesting)
The University will waste your time and money with classes that have no bearing on your job. The University usually focuses on theory and generalizations of concepts with some specifics. Universities are more interested in creating a well rounded educated employee. But, employers don't care if you took Western Civ. They want to know if you can fix their network. Having said that, you do need to understand network theory. Learning how to run a MS based network is different from actually knowing how networks
Re:Trade school is best (Score:5, Informative)
In a lot of large companies, to get into management, you need a degree. Experience alone isn't enough.
> The University will waste your time and money with classes that have no bearing on your job.
No. Life is about more than a job, and university will give yuo a much broader perspective. Unless you want to be a corporate drone or slave for the rest ofyour life, you need to about things that you might not choose to study by yourself. And one day you'll need the contacts, too, the people you met, and the ability to take a longer-term view of life.
A trade school is OK perhaps if you want to be a tradesman, but think of all the CP/M administration skills people learned at trade schools. Not heard of CP/M? Try MS-DOS. What will you learn? Windows 98? Windows XP? It'll be as obsolete within five years. So you need to learn how to learn, and to do that you need to go to the right place for you, and no-one else can tell you where that is.
Try to talk to people who graduated, and see if you can find people similar to yourself.
Your interests will also change (mine did) as you encounter new ideas. The more new ideas you encounter early on, the better idea you'll have of what you want to do, what interests you, what you're good at. The money isn't wasted., unless you throw it away by ignoring the oportunities.
Liam
Re:Trade school is best (Score:1)
This particular question came from a person who wants to be a network admin. Nothing about being a manager was discussed. For the sole purpose of working on networks, I stick by the trade school. A person will get more hands on experience and everything they learn and pay for will relate directly to their job. Trade schools may not be the intillectual equivalent of college, but most employers aren't going to be impressed with degrees anyway. Doesn't matter if it is college or trade shool, they will probe yo
Re:Trade school is best (Score:2)
My boss pays me to be well-spoken and literate so that when I come up with a new way to make his system work better, I can explain it to him and our customers. I don't know where all of these o
Re:Trade school is best (Score:1)
Re:Trade school is best (Score:1)
Re:Trade school is best (Score:1)
Re:Trade school is best (Score:2)
One of my interviewers (in America) asked me a question in German. I replied in Spanish. They were amused enough that I got the job. No class you'll take in a trade school will help you with those kinds of curveballs.
It's also not unheard of for a boss to drag his admin in front of some customers, and I assure you that they probably won't want to talk shop over dinner. Being able to discuss p
Re:Trade school is best (Score:3, Interesting)
That's what's good about them.
Re:Trade school is best (Score:2)
Re:Trade school is best (Score:1)
Re:Trade school is best (Score:1)
Re:Trade school is best (Score:1)
Neither! (Score:1, Troll)
Anything else is more time, money and expense to go through that ultimately won't make you more employable than the guy with the high school diploma who can back up his story convincingly in the interview. I met many college-educated network admin wannabes that failed to get the job because I showed up with a high school diploma and can run circles around the competition in my sleep.
If you make i
Re:Neither! (Score:1)
Re:Neither! (Score:1)
Re:Neither! (Score:2)
It will let you just virtualise the computer. Much easier than installing on a new PC (And lets you install yoour distro straight from the ISO).
Re:Neither! (Score:1)
Your post doesn't present any usable advice. You can't get a job in a field without experience and you can't get experience without a job. So how does one get into the field? They either start at the very bottom and hope to one day work their way up to where they want to be; or they get some type of education in the subject.
I am tired of people saying that all you need is "to know what you are doing." But these people never explain how they "know what they are doing." Experience counts in any profession, s
Re:Neither! (Score:2)
You can't get a job in a field without experience and you can't get experience without a job. So how does one get into the field?
Any quality school system in the US at least offers students an internship program with various local businesses. Where I went to school, internships weren't only available, they were mandatory for graduation. Apparently, having a quality school system is rare, or I wouldn't have gotten what is essentially a "but I didn't have a quality high school education, you insensitive
Re:Neither! (Score:1)
University for the Win (Score:1, Informative)
Community colleges (Score:2)
The only problem is that CCs vary a lot in what they offer, and you might have to look pretty far afield to find one with that suits your needs. I took some IT courses once at Col
If you can make it through college, do it. (Score:4, Interesting)
Bad question (Score:4, Informative)
The benefits of the degree here is mostly a worst case scenario. Imagine if Dell, Intel and Cisco got their shit together and realized they could offer their business clients a shitload of value by making a secure and quickly configurable networking system, complete with wireless and other staff reducing technologies. All they'd need is one guy on staff to handle the purchasing and manage the hiring of a few local punks from the local high school to run a few wires to access points over the summer. Now the company wins, the manager might lose a bit of self-importance as his staff and budget is being cut, but the two year degree guy is SOL. I suppose he can go back for another two year degree, although its usually far harder to go back the second time, either because of family or a fodness for material goods and car repairs.
Right now, you're the local high school punk. If you find and study for one or two certs, you should be able to pick up some work. I've seen ads for A+ people in the classifieds, and you can use that income to pick up something serious. As much as I dislike vendor certifications, it is my understanding that Cisco is really respected within IT departments (compared to say, microsoft certs). Long term outlook isn't much better than a two year degree, espcially something like ITT or DeVry. Remember that these places have shareholders; giving accurate but negative advice on the future outlook would hurt enrollment and share price, subsequently. If you're lucky, you make your way to department manager. Otherwise, I hear nursing's always in demand.
The four year degree offers flexibility. Sure, they'll throw a lot of crap at you, and so much of it that very little actually applies to any particular of today's jobs, but you'll also be prepared for far more than just network administration. Furthermore, you're also that much more prepared and likely to be accepted into an MBA program, which often becomes a prerequisite for promotion in the kinds of large networking environments that would need someone with a degree full time.
In summary, a four year degree lends you flexibility, and the two year degree locks you into a career path you may not be happy with five years from now. It's a tragic fact of life that the most important career choices are made now, when you're least informed and capable of making them. As Paul Graham said, stick with the choices that expand future choices, rather than limit them.
No question, get the paper (Score:5, Interesting)
I got a 2 year diploma as an electronics technician, which at the time was a good paying job. Tell me, how many jobs are out there for board-level electronics repair today? Network administration will go the same way. Oh sure there'll be some jobs out there, but not necessarily 10 years from now.
Get your degree. It's a small amount of time, and even if you decide to not stick with computers, having that degree opens the doors to everything else.
Re:No question, get the paper (Score:2)
In the end ive discovered its not really what you know but who you know that matters.
Re:You're still in high school? (Score:1)
Go to University, get a Philosophy degree (Score:2)
Of course, I'm still working toward going back to school for CS. There are a lot of interesting things to do in IT, but IMHO none as interesting as computer science.
Re:Go to University, get a Philosophy degree (Score:2)
GO TO College (Score:3, Informative)
Call me a troll if you need but....
after many years of working with people who have not gone to college and those who have, a software engineer or a system administrator that goes to college always has the advantage.
From the 80's of blowing away today's equivilent of heald graduates, to the boom and outsourcing of today where there is no way in Hell India can create 200,000 skilled computer people all from colleges that are as good as ours overnight.
I've been though it all. I've been kicking ass for 23 years. I'm still learning. I'm still reinventing myself. People still feel I have more than enough to contribute.
People who truly go to a 4 year school and learn logic, mathmatics, the algorithms, concepts of multiple computer languages, how to build a compiler, how to create a database. The difference between database and data base, so their, errr... there. This is important. You will use it all, if you are lucky.
A 2 year school teaches just how and what. A college teaches you all 5, what, when where, why and how. When you know why, you can keep learning. If you only know what, your always behind waiting for the next guy to tell you! In this market, you have to reinvent yourself every 3-4 years.
So if a 2 year school gets you working sooner, then go for it. Then do not be disappointed when some "college puke" takes your next job from you.
Now if you want to take the 8 years to earn a degree part time, more power to you. I had to finish school part time. It is truly hard.
Re:GO TO College (Score:2)
you don't think india can create 200k skilled CS grads overnight? they don't need to do it overnight -- they are out there already. and lots more are coming. you're talking about a country with a population more than three times that of the US.
it's gotten to the point where americans are going to india to get degrees and jobs now. it will be interestin
Are you certain this is your career? (Score:2)
In the other directio
Re:Are you certain this is your career? (Score:1)
After taking a class in computer science, I quickly realized that was not for me. I cannot understand for the life of me, complicated high-level languages like Java and C++. However, on my own I learned some PHP Javascript, and
Choose a Real Degree (Score:2)
Simple observation: (Score:3, Insightful)