How to Leave a Job on Good Terms? 755
An anonymous reader writes "I've been working for a small development company for 6 or 7 years. My boss has always been a bit nuts but overall it hasn't been a bad experience. I recently accepted a great job offer for a technology position in a different industry. I gave my boss my notice this week, and while he initially was understanding, he has since starting making accusations of conspiracy, deceit, and has otherwise attempted to make me look bad in front of employees and long-time clients. (who, thankfully, also think he is nuts) I don't like to burn bridges, but I'm pretty sure he's already burned it to the ground, even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave. Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked, or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"
Advice (Score:5, Informative)
Otherwise, just be polite, but firm. If he burns bridges, it's his choice. You did your best.
DEE-fense, DEE-fense! (Score:3, Informative)
You can turn a conversation into a paper trail by writing a letter along the lines "This is to summarize our conversation of $DATE. I am dismayed that you would think $ACCUSATION, which as I explained is of course incorrect. If I have misunderstood your position please let me know".
It might be worth the money to consult with an employment-law attorney and ask "here's what I'm doing, I'm dealing with irrational people, what precautions do you suggest?".
WorkplaceFairness.org (Score:5, Informative)
WorkplaceFairness [workplacefairness.org] has a few tips along these lines.
Sounds as if you've given sufficient notice. Unless you're violating some employment covenant, your employer has no legal basis by which to hold your final check and is probably attempting to intimidate you in an unlawful way.
Be professional, write or say nothing negative, ask for any employer complaint in writing, work out your notice with as much enthusiasm as you can muster, and seek any remedy after the fact.
This is why we have unions, folks. Or why we *had* unions. The workplace does NOT regulate itself.
Good luck, and enjoy your new job.
Re:Try finding a replacement (Score:3, Informative)
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Informative)
There is no excuse for this sort of behavior. Period. Next time he tries to do it, confront him. Remember, at this point, he needs you a lot more than you need him.
Speaking from a point of view of someone who spent years working with people in therapy, it sounds like this person has some issues that go deeper than the anger and frustration most people deal with. While I would normally advocate standing up for yourself (which isn't necessarily a confrontation), that fact that you start by saying he's always been a little nuts makes me suspect any confrontation will blow up.
In simple terms, it sounds like he's in denial over what's going on and blames you. In his mind, he probably already sees you as disloyal and even out to get him. This is not a reasonable view, but everything you say fits with that possibility. If that is so, anything you do will be viewed as an attack, and only add fuel to his fire of hate. So if you confront him, there's a chance he could blow up, start calling you names, or just walking away, then burning you in some other way.
Only you can decide what is and is not important to you. At this point, he's made it clear he considers it okay to withhold your paycheck. I can't tell if it's a bluff, or if he's serious (from what little we have here), but be aware that he is likely holding it hostage. Normally a boss thinks he has control becasue he can fire someone or stop paying them. With only a short time left, he feels he can no longer control you, so he's using that paycheck as his way to make sure you stay in line.
While it sounds lame, you might be best to try to difuse the situations with humor -- just not at his expense. Or, if he trashes you in front of a crowd of employees or clients, and you feel a need to stick up for yourself, you can always say something like, "He's been treating me that way ever since I turned in my notice,' and try to make it into a joke. He won't take it well, though.
Can't withhold pay (Score:5, Informative)
Hopefully, you only gave him two weeks. I found out the hard way, never give more than two weeks; you might think you're doing the boss a favor, but it just makes things harder on yourself to be known as the "short timer" for a month (or more).
You should definitely try to finish out your two weeks. Chances are, your boss will cool down sometime after you leave, and you'll want him to be a good reference when you embark on future job searches. At the very least, you don't want him to be a negative reference.
Your boss may be a total ass, but you should try to honor your word. Your most valuable asset in the business world is your reputation.
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:3, Informative)
There's no "stricly speaking" about it. You have no responsibility on this point.
Yes...I know...I was actually being a bit facetious in my original post...thanks for the clarification.
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Informative)
Since the boss is emotionally unstable (I mentioned that earlier in this thread), it might be unwise to mention anything about the check ahead of time. Go by to pick it up at the regular time, as you always would, as if nothing were wrong. If it's not there, ask him about it. If he tries holding it back, then it is time to take action. You're best off being understated. Just shrug and say, "Okay, I'll take it up with the Labor Board, under section xxx" (if you can cite a section, that might help).
If there is an HR department, go there first, if not, or after HR, then go to the state (or other appropriate authority) and file a complaint. Make sure you have a copy of the letter or form. It might help to show it to the boss, and that may be all you need, but if he is volitile, just stay away and wait until the authorities handle it.
If he "officially" tells you ahead of time he's withholding it (instead of just threatening), ask him why and see if you can get it in writing. In either case, document it clearly, write up a letter to complain to either HR or the labor board, and, on the last day, bring it up before you leave. Again, be understated, but know that you WILL get the check, it's just a question of when and whether he gives it to you or has to deal with HR or the authorities. Don't be cocky, just sure. If necessary, tell him what you've been told by HR or the labor board. Don't be a know it all, but say just enough to let him know you have resources.
Now, on the other hand, if at any time in this process he starts to act unstable, GET OUT. Your goal should be to get the check, not to confront him, piss him off, or prove to him you're right. If you can keep your ego out of this, you'll do great. If you let your ego lead you, you'll end up in a blow out with him, and it'll make it even harder to get the check.
Re:Withholding Vacation is Not Illegal (Score:5, Informative)
Many states require the company to pay for accrued vacation time. If so, it is indeed illegal.
Re:Advice (Score:3, Informative)
(Laugh in a good natured way and then say) "That's fine, I would love to own this company in settlement."
It's a rediculous statement, but one that indicates that you do know your rights and won't fold. But even more importantly, it lets him know that his threat failed to deliver the one item that it was really intended to delever: It failed to inspire fear.
Been there before, and I know it sucks. But don't say anything even remotely bad about your boss. Even if everyone agrees with you and praises your insight, you're still out of there in a week or so. Let him dig his own grave. Any boss that bad mouths thier employees won't be looked on kindly by his peers. He won't get fired for it, but you can gurantee that he will be passed over for promotion until people forget his behavior.
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Informative)
I see where you're coming from....I was making the assumption that this manager, while superfically unreasonable, is fundamentally capable of rational thought, while you're reminding us that that assumption may not be valid.
This is indeed a troubling scenario...in most situations, the best course would be to smile and nod, and walk on eggshells around him. However, in this situation, this potentially unbalanced person has the ability to cause serious damage to the writer's professional reputation and career. Another poster on this topic made the statement that the only thing a technical profesional really possesses is their reputation...a point with which I agree wholeheartedly.
To borrow your analogy of a kid attacking you, as long as he is unarmed, you may be able to safely ignore him, but if he starts attacking with a club, knife, or gun (in short, if his attacks now have the potential to cause real damage), you are within your rights to protect your own well-being.
Clearly, if the manager is indeed unbalanced, the writer has a very fine line to walk for the next couple weeks. in this situation, the only constructive advice I can offer is to make every attempt to appear as the rational and reasonable party...while still taking the necessary steps to defend one's professional reputation.
You need an attorney (Score:5, Informative)
2. Withholding or threatening to withhold pay or benefits as you describe is very, very, very illegal, and so are...
3. Libel and slander (printed and spoken, respectively).
All based on my limited understanding of US law, but if you are not in the US there are still likely protections against what you have described.
Get. Attorney. Now.
Jim
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Informative)
Your boss isn't Mr. Krabs. This is the real world and he has to live in it. I'm sure that unless he's truly crazy he really doesn't want to deal with a lot of legal crap just because you hurt his feelings or whatever.
Re:My two cents... (Score:1, Informative)
But if that fails, then go for the formal complaint. Before you leave the job make sure you have documentation for all your hours.
The myth of the 2-week notice (Score:3, Informative)
1. Your employer is *not* entitled to advance notice of your departure (unless this is spelled out in a contract).
2. You are *not* entitled to advance notice of your firing (unless this would mean the employer is in violation of a labor law).
That's it, just two exceptions. If your contract does not specify a notice period, and a penalty for not doing so, you are clean. If your state laws don't force them to, your employers can wait until the very last second to tell you that you are fired or laid off.
The 2-week notice is a common courtesy, less than two weeks is too drastic and will hint at a less than friendly departure. More than two weeks will make the whole thing akward.
It is not your responsibility to find your replacement before you leave. The only thing you really owe them is a resignation letter so they can CYA. Give them thanks for the X years of great employment and for the camaraderie or whatever.
We all know it is all a lie, but you are trying to leave in good terms and that letter will stick around for a while. Next time somebody calls HR to verify your employment, you'll get lucky and the person that answers the call won't know you. She'll pull your file and read the letter and won't hesitate to tell them that sure, you worked X years there but moved on because of whatever. If there is no letter she'll ask around and eventually she'll make it to your boss, who may or not be bitter about it. You fill the blanks.
Re:My two cents... (Score:3, Informative)
Whatever he thinks, it's not OK to withhold the check for work performed. If he's slandering an employee and ultimately follows through on the threat to withhold pay, lawyer up and contact the company's legal department, and see how fast they capitulate.
Re:My two cents... (Score:3, Informative)
If he withholds your paycheck, he's in deep shit. In Washington state, and I imagine other places, having your paycheck withheld automatically entitles you to double the amount, plus punitive damages.
He simply has no right to threaten such an act. If I were you, I'd say, "I dare you...". In any case, investigate your rights in this matter. You might be in a position to burn some more bridges yet come out with a lot of dough in your pockets.
(IANAL.)
Do check your state law (Score:3, Informative)
Re:My two cents... (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/texas_payday
Re:What references? (Score:4, Informative)
Ahh, but if you don't work those last two weeks they can easily document that walked off the job. They can then give you a bad reference, and they will win in court if you try to sue. (at least in my area two weeks is considered normal notice) HR would prefer not, but in this case you leave them with little choice, since they do not have opportunity to do any transitioning.
In fact for most companies this is about the only way to get fired without being turned over to the police. If they want you gone they will give you the opportunity to "resign for personal reasons", at which point they don't give a bad reference (which means they give the dates you work and that you left on good terms, like any other employee) Because you resign (and if you are smart you will because if they have to fire you they will give a bad reference) you have less legal power against them. Of course if you they catch you doing something illegal they will fire you and then turn you over to the police.
Mind many HR departments will send a guard to escort you to the door when you give your two weeks. However they still pay your for those two weeks, they just call it work from home.
However you can get co-worker references. HR only controls what your boss can say. If bob worked with you and things you are a great guy, he can say that. If you resign all bob knows is one day you are gone. It is really easy to make bob think (without telling a lie) that your leaving was a hushed thing that you could not tell them about until after you were gone. He will then be a good reference. If you are fired he will find out, and hesitate to give a good reference figuring there is something he didn't know.
In short: company references mean little (though you should check them anyway because a few people will lie about jobs they never had). However personal references are still checked.
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:1, Informative)
Incorrect in more ways than one (Score:5, Informative)
It would cost you any attorney fees either.
Reply from the original poster (Score:1, Informative)
I did finish out my two weeks, although it was hardly the most fun (or most productive) two weeks I've had. I did get paid in full despite several additional threats and got screwed a bit on banked vacation time. On my last day, when I walked into the boss's office to say goodbye, he acted busy, wouldn't shake my hand, and left the room.
I appreciate everyone's feedback, though. Thankfully, I'm now working for a company that truly seems to value its employees, has some great benefits, and thus far, no total nutjobs.
Thanks again
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Informative)
If the original poster is in the U.S., that will probably get him/her nowhere unless severance pay is detailed somewhere in the contract, if there is one. Most states regard employment as an "at will" situation, and if a given entitlement isn't in the employment agreement, for all intents and purposes it doesn't exist.
Re:What references? (Score:4, Informative)
That being said, I'm sure that virtually all small business owners are ignorant of the ruling. So, it would be better in the article submitter's case to be without fault and not give his soon-to-be former employer any reason to badmouth him.
Re:My two cents... (Score:3, Informative)
In the UK, generally very good. They are composed of three people, whose combined experience is usually extensive and includes legal proceedings, working on behalf of employers and working on behalf of employees.
Tribunals are generally held to be no-nonsense, firm but fair deals. If you try to get damages because you did something stupid and got yourself fired, they'll usually throw it out. If your employer really was acting improperly, you'll generally get fair compensation. Even organisations like Citizens' Advice speak well of them.
You can take representation if you want, but often it's not necessary. A simple statement of your grievance may suffice.
For the kind of case you'd take to a tribual, relatively few. For employers, however, having a tribunal (which is public) find against you is a pretty damning indictment, and if it gets a lot of press locally it's a good way to run out of good staff to hire real quick.
OK, your turn: where does all this cynicism come from? We have a system, it works pretty well both in theory and more importantly in practice, and it's immune to some of the gross abuses that get mentioned here pretty frequently under employment-at-will. What's your problem with it?
That final paycheck (Score:5, Informative)
In Massachusetts, if I remember correctly the employer may not withhold a paycheck for more than a week after the paycheck for the pay period would normally be issued, and in the case of a termination or layoff, they're required to issue a paycheck, expenses, and pay for accrued vacation all on the day of the termination or layoff. I'm not sure what the penalties are. The attorney general's office can refer you to appropriate legal resources, or may even choose to get directly involved with getting you paid.
I had one incident of an employer trying to not pay me. The AG's office said that yes, they'd take legal action on my behalf if necessary, but first they wanted me to simply demand the money in their name. That got me my money, much to my surprise.
Regarding working through notice (Score:3, Informative)
So, if you don't want to work through your notice because the employer reacts badly, you can always tell the new employer that the old one decided that having anyone around after they gave notice is a risk, and so you're available early. If they're at all professional, the new employer will have no problem with this.
Also, it happens that sometimes when an employee gives notice, the old employer doesn't assign them any new work that they might have to leave in the middle of, so you simply finish everything before your notice is up and have nothing left to do, and so they let you go. That's another perfectly reasonable excuse for not completing your given notice period, as far as the new employer should be concerned.
Or, well, if you have the money in the bank, it's already less than two weeks... you could just take a few days off unpaid.
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:1, Informative)
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:3, Informative)
Check your cell phone - it can probably record. It can also pick up and broadcast background sounds - including the voices of other people. So are you going to claim that you need the consent of everyone in the room to talk on a cell phone?
The law, in practice, is very easy - the guy is making an illegal threat (to withhold pay). Yo record it. You are NOT going to be busted for that.
Re:What references? (Score:1, Informative)
And when we check references, if we get a "no comment" or a "we will only verify employment" we take that to mean a negative assessment.
Re:just a word of warning (Score:3, Informative)
And its not very likely that someone who's caught recorded harrassing someone and thratening to withhold paychecks, etc., is going to be in any position to complain.
Here's some law: http://yarchive.net/phone/call_recording.html [yarchive.net] - phone conversations
and, even in states that require both partys' consent for a phone conversation, the same rules don't apply for non-phone conversations http://www.rtnda.org/resources/hiddencamera/michi