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First Person Shooters (Games) Government Software The Courts News

Threshold for Piracy? 88

Posted by Cliff from the when-do-you-draw-the-line dept.
bigwayne writes "A continuing source of internal discussion, among the organizers of Zion LAN, is the topic of how strict we are to be concerning software piracy. It just seems common sense that a LAN party would be a perfect place to share music, software, movies, and do other reprehensible acts. However there isn't much, outside discouraging the act itself, that we can do to actually stop these things. One strong argument is that the legitimately obtained software we provide shares the same distribution method that the illegally obtained software does, and I wonder if this creates a double-standard far outside of any legal situation it creates. Another part of this also concerns our particular situation (our LAN is being hosted by a non-profit charitable organization), in that we'd be ethically remiss if we sat idly by and let such things happen, unmitigated. So, where do we stop passively caring about piracy, and when do we start cracking down? Are the circumstances of a LAN party such that trying to stop it is overambitious?"
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Threshold for Piracy? More

Threshold for Piracy?

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  • Easy (Score:2, Insightful)

    by blackicye ( 760472 )
    Inform all participants in advance of your decision, and set a zero tolerance policy.

    Request that anyone who does not wish to adhere to "no piracy" rules to not attend the event.

    If they insist on attending and engaging in copyright infringement, round them up and politely escort them off the premises.

    • Or...... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by TubeSteak ( 669689 ) on Saturday June 04, 2005 @11:37PM (#12727134) Journal
      The alternative is to declare that you're not responsible for any behavior etc etc etc and that will not be held liable for any illicit or malicious activity.

      If the BSA or RIAA or MPAA comes a knockin', send them packing.

      If the police decide to make themselves known, tell them that you're not responsible (as posted) and that copyright infringement is a civil (not criminal) matter.

      You're not these people's parents, IANAL but you don't have squat to worry about.

      If anyone complains, escort them off the premises. Worry more about your building's insurance policy than about being the thought police.

  • Have some faith (Score:4, Insightful)

    by FidelCatsro ( 861135 ) <fidelcatsro&gmail,com> on Saturday June 04, 2005 @04:49PM (#12725239) Journal
    Just make it a policy that copyright infringment at the event is unaceptable and if your caught you will be expelled from the event.
    Other than that , dont treat people like criminals .
    They may do it , they may not , but if you start putting in checks your going to make it a rather unplesant experiance for people .
    • In other words, set a policy, don't hunt for them, but if you happen to come across one randomly then shoot it. You don't want them to take your booty, arr!
    • Of course, this runs the risk of making the event liable if they don't catch anyone. Part of the reason that Napster was taken down was that they could ban users.

      Personally, I would suggest that the people running the event talk with a lawyer that practices copyright law and is licensed in the appropriate jurisdiction.

      The important thing, I think, is to avoid liability. Personally I don't think that there is a real moral or ethical dimension to copyright, and I'd be careful of trying to find and follow on
  • and promptly ignore copyright violations. You're not their parents, after all.
  • Tell participants that you don't want them doing any copyright infringement, and that the RIAA, MPAA, and the BSA have been invited.

    They either show up or they don't.

    If they do, you've basically ensured that any copyright infringement will be taken care of.

    If they don't, you've invited the people who care about copyright infringement of their products, and fulfilled your duties in trying to prevent copyright infringement by telling participants not to do it.

    That's the best solution to me. Don't monitor

  • Alert! Unmonitored citizen group in sector 12! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Is it me or is this just strange? You mean every time a group of people gets together, somebody has to make sure they aren't exchanging the "wrong" information?

    I'm trying to imagine how this will play out 10,20,50 years from now, when we all have wireless portable storage devices in our shirt buttons that automatically record anything and everything. Are we supposed to police every group of kids? Will there be a special Kopyright Kops that checks every get-together and sleepover? "All clear sir, unauthoriz
    • did you read the post? i dont recall it saying anything about policing, and brings up pretty much the same questions you ask (albeit without the sarcasm and lame attempts at humor).

      As for the latter part, bittorrent wasnt created strictly for the purpose of copyright infringement either. For some reason that argument, while it has held so far, has created a huge commotion to say the least.
  • Why does everything computer related now have to be so concerned with 'piracy'? Why is it suddenly everyone's job to patrol everything you do to make sure you haven't commited the heinous crime of copying a cd? It's a sad state for the world to be in.

    • Why does everything computer related now have to be so concerned with 'piracy'? Why is it suddenly everyone's job to patrol everything you do to make sure you haven't commited the heinous crime of copying a cd? It's a sad state for the world to be in.

      Because there are people out there who have a legal claim to intangible things that can be copied perfectly hundreds of times without loss. Because they have a zero-tolerance policy against said copying, and would prefer to see otherwise innocent person lo

  • The I games by Multiplay [multiplay.co.uk] in the U.K which are 1000 man lans have a no file policy

    They have a system that cans for network shares and locks the connection out of the network until it is disabled. If that share had any copyrighted material they might throw you out.

    Saying that, just hand round CD's and DVD's. Or even USB2 HDD's. Theres way round it, inless they have a guard on every row.

  • Making Software Piracy Irrelevant (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MiceHead ( 723398 ) on Saturday June 04, 2005 @05:33PM (#12725450) Homepage
    I've long thought that software developers will eventually make software piracy impossible, (or at least difficult or irrelevant), by relying more on online content.

    I'm not referring to online copy protection, but in actual value-added content. For example, it's not always meaningful to pirate the client of a MMORPG, since the meat is in the subscription content. Similarly, the developer of a first-person shooter might offer server-based content -- maps and tournaments -- that's not available on the client side.

    Most folks who copy media seem to do so casually; might this provide them an incentive to pick up a full copy, making the argument about end-user piracy moot?
    _____
    Epidemic Groove - A casual RTS/Action hybrid for Windows [dejobaan.com]

  • LAN party cds. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Seor Jojoba ( 519752 ) on Saturday June 04, 2005 @05:41PM (#12725488) Homepage
    I think if game publishers were smart they would be doing some simple things to cut down on piracy at LAN parties.

    When you buy a game, you could get an extra "LAN party" CD that can be passed around and copied however you want. It could install game clients that will function as long as one licensed installation is on the network. I'm sure the publisher would rather be selling a unique copy of the game to each player, but let's look at the reality of the situation:

    1. You go to the party and somebody says "Hey let's play Super Machoman Elite Team Force 3000!"
    2. You don't necessarily want to buy this game, but you need to install something to play with your buddies.
    3. Somebody hands you a disc and you install it. You maybe tell yourself that you'll uninstall it or buy the game later.
    4. But do you?
    The point of having a "LAN party" installer is not to make extra copy protection, which can obviously be circumvented. Just make it easier to make temporary installations that work only at the party. It will be more convenient for people to avoid pirating games that way. And as the licensed owner of game you can pass around a disc without fear of it getting pirated.
    • This is sort of like the old game Total Annihilation. The game came with two CDs, one was a "multiplayer disk" that you could give to a friend so the two of you could play against each other.

      I also like the attitude of Epic Games; for UT2k3 and 2k4, it will let any number of people with the same CD Key play on a lan-only game, but a unique key is required to play over the internet.
      • Incorrect. TA, like all games of that time, checked for a certain number of original CDs within the network (the MP CD was needed for any MP/skirmish gaming, the SP CD only for campaigns). You needed one CD for up to three players, two for six and three for ten. Starcraft had the "spawn" install method which allowed you to install a network-client only version that can only join games and only those hosted by the guy with the same CD key and a full install. A bit later games started requiring only one CD pe
      • I also like the attitude of Epic Games; for UT2k3 and 2k4, it will let any number of people with the same CD Key play on a lan-only game, but a unique key is required to play over the internet.

        Yet another use for VPNs...

    • Re:LAN party cds. (Score:3, Informative)

      by Minna Kirai ( 624281 )
      When you buy a game, you could get an extra "LAN party" CD that can be passed around and copied however you want.

      Blizzard used to do this, at least in the era of Starcraft. They called it a Spawn install [blizzard.com], and it was an installed copy that could only be used in network games against someone running the same CD which made this install.
    • Bungie used to sell their games (Marathon and Myth series) with two keys. One was for the primary machine it was to be played on (which was considered the server in a network game). The other key was for a network client only. IIRC, you could call Bungie and get more LAN keys for little to no cost.

      Of course, I never had much reason to copy their games, since I've never found a Bungie game that was worth the powder it takes to blow it to hell. Not Halo, not any of the Marathons, and certainly not Myth or it
    • An interesting variation of this might be to provide time-limited registration keys which can be purchased cheaply online ($1-2 for a 24hr period or so) allowing you to use a friend's copy to install the game.
    • Didn't Rise of the Triad have something like this? I know the Diablo 1 CD had an installation option for what was basically a demo where you could only play the Warrior and the first 4 levels.
    • The game Sacred had a workable idea. They actually posted in their official forums that you could do LAN play with one CD on as many computers as you wanted. Just install the game on every computer, then start the game with the CD in one computer, once the CD check completes, pass the CD to the next person, repeat. In online play the CD-Key was checked, so this was not possible. I found that I liked that attitude. It accepted the fact that not everyone at a LAN party is going to want to own a copy of a

  • Zero Tolerance for Piracy! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Minna Kirai ( 624281 ) on Saturday June 04, 2005 @06:01PM (#12725608)
    There can be no excusing pirates. If any piracy is suspected, immediately contact the Coast Guard (or similar maritime enforcement agency in your respective country) and report the perpetrators.

    Piracy is easy to recognize [un.org]:
    • UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA - Article 101

      Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

      (a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

      (i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;

      (ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;

      (b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;

      (c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).


    Remember, kids: Just say NO to violent crimes on or near the ocean!

  • Do what is ethical and moral for you (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Don't be a sheep, led by politicians, lawyers, corporations and pressure groups. (In either direction.)

    You know what is right and what is wrong, and the limits beyond which right turns into wrong. Honour your personal code, and that's all that matters.

  • Balance (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Lord Kano ( 13027 ) on Saturday June 04, 2005 @06:33PM (#12725774) Homepage Journal
    You need to balance common sense with your policies.

    For example, if there is rampant out in the open piracy, it will reflect poorly on your event and could even possibly open you up to some claims of liability.

    At the same time, you're not the BSA or SPA either, it's not your job or responsibility to make sure that no one has any pirated software on their machine.

    Basically, make it known that piracy is not allowed. Anyone caught engaging in the act of software piracy will be asked to leave. And then stick to it.

    If someone's screaming "Hey I got Episode III, who wants to grab it?" you give him the boot.

    If someone quietly lets a friend grab his copy of Episode III without bringing it to anyone else's attention, there's nothing you can do about it.

    LK

    • Re:Balance (Score:2, Informative)

      by bigwayne ( 650386 )
      And this is what it looks like it's going to be: a clever balancing act. Obviously theres going to be something going on, and while it's not particularly our responsibility, we are still charged with creating an environment that discourages "rampant open piracy", and thats what we're trying to do. We're not trying to play corporate cops.

      I'm actually relieved that you translated this so well, and you know what we're looking at here. Thanks :D

  • You do NOT the enforcement responsibility (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Alereon ( 660683 ) on Saturday June 04, 2005 @06:35PM (#12725782)
    You do NOT want to take the legal and time responsibility for file sharing on your LAN. Simply make a statement that tells people not open file shares of any kind and that you take no responsibility whatsoever for anything found outside the official server, but also state that you don't have the time or resources to monitor the LAN for violations.

  • DO NOT ASK SLASHDOT (Score:3, Insightful)

    by amliebsch ( 724858 ) on Saturday June 04, 2005 @06:54PM (#12725896) Journal
    Ask a lawyer. Preferably one that knows something about copyright law.
    • But a lawyer and whatever he recommends to do is likely to cost a whole lot more money than a LAN party can afford.
    • By asking a lawyer, then that kind of admits that you are a wilful contributory infringer, which is a no no. Once you take on responsibility for detecting pirates and what not then you open up a whole can of worms. What if you eject someone who is not a pirate. That person can sue for defamation, breach of contract. Etc....
      • Conversations between you and your lawyer about what your liability might be and how to avoid it are privileged and cannot be used as evidence against you.
        • The conversation itself is privileged but the fact that you sought a lawyer is not.

          It can be evidence that you knew or should have known what you were doing wrong.

          • But if ignornace of the law is no excuse for breaking it, why does it matter if you knew that what you're doing is wrong?

            Searching out a lawyer to get specifics on the local laws is probably the best option.
            • It is important in copyright/patent/trademark context because wilful infringement is a higher penalty than non wilful infringement. So you might be found liable for contributory infringement. But not wilful contributory infringement which may result in higher penalties and such.
          • So they know he had a meeting with John Doe, Attorney at Law, and you think that's evidence that they are willfully infringing? There are so many things they could've discussed- such as licensing issues for the multiplayer games they officially run- that it wouldn't even be noticed. Hell, it's a defense more than anything- "We met with John Doe to discuss what we could legally do".

            Besides, intentionally ignoring these acts is apparently a solid legal position, based on how many ISPs (esp. NSPs) will not
            • It really isn't a solid legal position. Plus being an ISP is different than hosting a LAN party. I doubt this lan guy can afford the 300 an hour it takes to consult with an attorney in which the attorney comes back and says. I don't know, the law isn't clear. Do it at your own risk.

              So on the witness stand. The plaintiff lawyer will be like. Did you know that people were exchanging warez? What did you do about it?

              Then the defense will state, well I talked to a lawyer, he told me to do A,B,C and it would

  • eh brother, haven't you heard about the great new technology called Trusted Computing [againsttcpa.com]? Put a chip with a hash code in every hardware and use a TC-aware OS (such as, unfortunately, Linux kernel 2.6.12) so that only authorised software can be executed. To fight mp3 sharing, cripple the OS to disallow file copying too!
    • I hate to say this, but: you are an idiot. It's open source. It's not like they can force it into the kernel, considering that anyone can take it right back out. It will, however, be a boon for security, since hackers will theoretically be unable to install (or make run) hacked binaries. In the case of Linux, TC will be in the control of the user, meant to improve overall security. It is TC on a BIOS level, or in a restrictive environment such as windows, that makes me worry: that is where TC can be us

      • In the case of Linux, TC will be in the control of the user, meant to improve overall security.

        No, it'll be under the control of the ISP. If your ISP hasn't signed your computer's kernel, or if you're not running an antivirus program signed by the ISP, then the DHCP server won't give your computer a routable IP address. Alsee could probably tell you more about the "Trusted Network Connect" spec published by the Trusted Computing Group. Expect both your local cable company and your local telco to adopt t

  • If the copyright owners take umbrage, it's their responsibility to do something about it. After all, if you don't own the copyright on something, how do you know it's illegal sharing?
  • well legally you'll probably be analogous to an ISP (just carrying content not taking responsibility etc...) Your job is creating a network for that LAN party, not deciding what's going to pass through said network :)
  • I am unwilling to be completely good, so please don't consider me completely evil!


    You call it piracy, you call it reprehensible, yet you turn to others' sanction for guidance? You are going to establish morality by plebiscite?

    It's piracy, its illegal, its going on during your watch. Stop it.

    • It's piracy, its illegal, its going on during your watch. Stop it.

      How? And why? When you're hanging out with your friends, do you body slam them if they try to exchange copyrighted material? Do you call the RIAA, MPAA, or BSA and report it? What do you do to stop copyright infringement on your watch? All I see is a holier-than-thou attitude with no suggestions (practical or impractical) to back it up.
      • Ah, the old excluded middle fallacy with a little tu quoque thrown in for good measure. Good ol' Slashdot. When I'm with my friends, and they ask if I want a copy of a CD, I say no. If they ask if I want a copy of Photoshop, I say no.

        If I was hosting a computer-related function, and my friends were swapping software, I'd ask them to leave.

        What I do or do not do is irrelevant to the OP, and irrelevant to the morality of copying software.
        • You must be a Christian and/or an American, from the way you think that, as someone who is apparently NOT in law enforcement, it's your job to nanny everyone else whether they like it or not.

          And you also probably act surprised when your Jesus Christ pose elicits resentment and no one comes to a second "computer-related function" you host.
        • The point of my post was that you offer no advice. You're just preaching. You say stop them, but you don't say how. Sure, if I were running the event, I'd ask people not to. If they did it right in front of me, I'd ask them to stop. But what happens if I ask them to leave? Do they pick up their stuff and go home? What if they don't? Should the organizers have to hire bouncers? What happens if a fight breaks out when ejecting someone? Etc., etc., etc.

          What I was trying to convey with my post (and I should ha
    • It's piracy, its illegal, its going on during your watch. Stop it.

      That's exactly the question. Is it our watch?
    • Translation: "I haven't used the word 'plebiscite' in a sentence today!"

      I was speaking of course from any corporate viewpoint. Things controversial and speculatively illegal can rarely be taken lightly when business politics are involved. This brings with it a near no-tolerance policy for said things, and this is where our dilemma appears, since we're working with people that are very near to the heart of the controversy. Also, I'm not asking for a vote, but viewpoints on others (namely gamers, opinionate

      • Re:Translation: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Frodo Crockett ( 861942 )
        Hmm...

        It would be nice if you could offer an alternative to copying games. What happens if little Billy shows up, sees how awesome UT2004 is, and wants to play it, but he doesn't own a copy? The answer would be to get a few cases of popular games to sell to attendees.

        If you're lucky, you could get a local or web retailer to sponsor the event by providing you with software to sell and donating the profits to the charity you've lined up. Even that doesn't work out, I bet some of your staff could help you ge

  • Don't ask, don't tell. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Jah-Wren Ryel ( 80510 ) on Saturday June 04, 2005 @08:50PM (#12726491)
    Lots of employers make their employees take drug tests as part of the hiring process and some of them even subject their employees to drug tests during their employment. Usually, such practices are justified as being required by the Drug Free Workplace Act of 1988. [dol.gov] But, such justifications are false. All the DFWA requires are drug awareness programs, and the definition of such a program is almost entirely left up to the employer, they can be as simple as handing out dilbert anti-drug pamphlets to new employees.

    How is this connected to software piracy at lan parties?
    It is advice via analogy.

    Do as the smart companies do with respect to drugs. Formulate a policy forbidding piracy, hand out a pamphlet of piracy boojums and then don't worry about it unless somone actively brings an act of piracy to your attention. You will have covered your ass, which is all any organization outside of the BSA and SPAA needs to do, and at the same time wasted as few of the precious non-profit resources on fighting someone else's battle.
    • I see where you're coming from, but this returns once again to ethics. We're not just trying to cover our asses legally, we're trying to figure out our tactics on *actually* deterring "copyright infringement" at the party as best we can, without going overboard.

      Good point about it being somebody elses battle, but if we do nothing about it, aren't we just helping the other side? We're in the battle no matter what, and we put ourselves there, but doing nothing is almost the same as advocating what one side
      • You can't. Don't bother. And you'll get hurt at whatever you try to actively do. The key is being passive. Whatever you come up with, dedicated pirate A will find a way to get software from dedicated pirate B.

        If you do try to deter actively and you fail, then you're held liable for being complicit in the act by failing to prevent. Best for you to set a policy - then leave the users up to choose self-censorship. Then, if shit hits the fan, you will be safe. Altruistic ideals about actually making a d
      • There are some that argue that copyright as it exists today is itself unethical - not only is it theft from the public domain but the punishments are out of proportion compared to serious crimes like murder and rape.

        Remember that the law in general has very little to do with ethics - ask anyone working for a Fortune500 company and they can tell you that "corporate ethics" are just CYA for lawsuits that might hurt the company and not about actually "doing the right thing."

        For the most part, copyright is si
  • If you try and stop piracy at a LAN, firstly, you will fail, because you can't stop it, and secondly, you'll be looked at as "nazi organizers" and ultimately lose the respect of your attendees.

    Have an official policy of "no file sharing". Post it on your web site, release forms, whatever. Then stop. You've cleared yourself. Don't ask, don't tell. You aren't under any obligation to start acting as the MPAA/RIAA's gestapo.
  • 17 USC 512 [copyright.gov] indicates that a "service provider" is not liable for copyright violations conducted over their network as long as they meet certain conditions (generally, being uninvolved in any way other than routing traffic). A LAN operator in this setup might be regarded as a service provider:

    17 USC 512(k) Definitions -

    (1) Service provider. -
    (A) As used in subsection (a), the term "service provider" means an entity offering the transmission, routing, or providing of connections for digital online communic
  • You can't stop sneakernet [wikipedia.org]!!!
  • How about keeping things simple and ignoring the issue entirely? If people, trade files, they trade files. Who gives a shit?

    And voila! No headaches, no problems, no unhappy people.
  • I've seen it argued that its safer to not try too hard. If you try to deploy any system to prevent piracy, you then run the risk of becomming liable for piracy that occours if the system fails.
  • ...blatantly ripping off The Matrix graphics, names, logo, and then worrying about other people infringing copyright....

    Baz
  • I've been lanning for years, going back to Doom & Duke Nukem.

    I will say that at every large lan I've been to consisting of 500 to 1000 attendees, you find LESS people playing games. It's aggravating, just walk around and you'll see people searching every share in network neighborhood, the P2P of the day, and so on. You'll find lots o' empty game servers though!

    The real gamers and people who want to play games will show up to a LAN despite anti-filesharing policies. Hell I think it would boost the
  • First off, IANAL. For legal advise, talk to an actual lawyer, not a techie message board.
    That said...
    Probably the best thing to do is go for "common carrier" status. Basically, you are provideing a transport mechanism for data, nothing more. This has it's pro's and con's.
    • Pro
      • You get a "get out of liability free" card.
    • Con
      • You can not control anything that passes over the network. (e.g. porn, racist remarks, profanity). The minute you exercise any control on the network, you suddenly have a "righ
  • If i bring my own machine, too damned bad, ill share whatever i want.

    Dont like it? Then dont be surprised when i trash every machine in the building..

    Attempt to restrict me, and see what it gets you.

    Though id never visit one of those stupid gaming things so you and your dork friends are safe.

  • I don't think you have any moral or ethical obligation toward piracy at all, beyond what the organization itself does. You are neither the copyright holder or a law-enforcement agency. It's not your job to keep attendees on the straight-and-narrow.

    That being said, you will need to think about this from a liability standpoint. I suggest you consult a lawyer and get him or her to advise you on what sort of policy to set up with an eye on protecting your organization from liability. Since you're a cha

  • There is nothing wrong with software/music/movie piracy - you should not try to stop it. In fact, you should even encourage it! - teach the visitors to use DC or bittorrent. It gets kids intrested in culture and it gives everyone equal access to it.

    Here in sweden there are lots of LAN parties where piracy is rampant and there are even official warez-ftp:s [s] provided by the crew, bigscreens with scrolling warez-ftp info, etc etc.. Its really nice and the visitors *love* it. (Piracy would not reflect badly on

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