Body Modifications Still Hinder IT Professionals? 1461
thedeletekey writes "The Detroit News recently ran an article about body modifications in the workplace. This got me thinking; do body modifications such as tattoos and piercings still hinder IT professionals in the workplace? Or is this a thing of the past, as these types of personal changes have become more common in recent years. In my experience, I've found both stringent dress codes requiring business casual attire, and no visible body modifications, to no dress code at all. What has the rest of the IT world found to be common?"
Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:2, Insightful)
Here is a simple guide:
* Hide the tats.
* Save the piercings for the goth club.
* Use a natural hair color. (man...I wish I could do green at work...)
I'm sure you can think of other examples.
it's unprofessional (Score:3, Insightful)
Stand out of the crowd by what you do, not what you look like. Anything else is just juvenile.
Professional appearance for a professional job (Score:2, Insightful)
I would say... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to mention turning yourself into two minute spot on That's Incredible by way of using your body as a canvas doesn't exactly scream "able to deal with standards and normality" which are good things to be able to convince interviewers of.
I don't even want to get into genital piercings and tattoos inside of lips.
Accepted in IT? More often adopted by geeks who are hoping to convince someone they're tough. I see very few genuine stereotypical tough body modders with any nerd cred. And a snake fighting an eagle taking up your whole chest is a lot more normal on a biker than let's say a penguin bending over and mooning Bill Gates on a support tech wearing coke bottle glasses, but either one doesn't exactly say "mentally stable and totally dependent" to me.
Grouse about superficial judgements all you like. The world doesn't work according to idealism.
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:5, Insightful)
dress for success!, or run the risk... (Score:5, Insightful)
Do whatever you will to or for your body, your appearance, but do so at your own risk. Since tattoos are essentially permanent, think about long term goals, ramifications, etc., and what some "permanent" might mean for those goals.
The OP talks about some places being "cool" with tattoos, piercings, etc. That may be true, but that is only a snapshot of today's standards. During the dotcom heyday, with IT "specialists" (most really weren't, n'est-ce pas?) the standard for acceptable appearance was "anything goes". We need you, and we still love you even though your hair is filthy and goes to your waist, and you have tattoos.
But, I worked for a large corporation for 21 years... when I started, the dress code was un-stated, but tacitly enforced... you had to wear dress pants (absolutely no jeans), dress shirt, and at least a sports coat (yes, the tie was optional). Over time, as IT became the place to work and demand for workers was high I saw this dress code disappear and the office soon looked like the stretch pants, khaki cutoff shorts, flip-flops and sandals capital of the United States!
Fast forward to the dotcom crash... new management, and new dress codes, this time actually formally enforced. Yeah, things change.
So, think about it... tattoos go a long way... and regardless of right or wrong, some people react negatively to them, and regardless of whether you like that or not, it's there! (I know of a very close friend who lost out to a med-school... she found out later it was influenced by her tattoos.) (Also, I think this has even passed muster in court of law -- I think Starbucks actually has a dress code and appearance code that was challenged by someone who had a pierced something, and Starbucks prevailed.)
For those who need further prodding and convincing, read John Malloy's Dress for Success [twbookmark.com]. Whether personally you like or don't like people's reactions to how you look at least Malloy will give you some empirical perspective to work with...
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:3, Insightful)
Amazing the things you can learn on slashdot.
The worst part is that the article submitter seems to frame the question as if he is part of some great repressed minority fighting to gain the right to look like an idiot.
Perhaps we should point out that wearing your pants around your ankles and farting loudly during interviews also have the potential to decrease your job prospects?
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:3, Insightful)
Look, you're an adult now. There are certain expectations put on you. If you don't want to adhere to the professional environment, start your own company or go work in a comic book shop.
Decorate your mind (Score:3, Insightful)
prudes (Score:4, Insightful)
The arguement could be made that clients or managers could have the sort of archaic, narrow-minded ideas which would necessitate very conservative attire at the workplace; however, I don't expect so much of that attitude itself on a site where the majority of the posters are geeks. I thought we were a more open-minded lot than that.
This is the same attitude which used to force men to wear ties and women to wear dresses. It's the same attitude which made people be angry with the "long" bowl-cuts the Beatles sported when they came to the USA.
I'm not saying the attitude doesn't exist, or that you can currently do what you want and get away with it. All I'm saying is that there's no reason smart people like all of us should help it persist.
Re:Professional appearance for a professional job (Score:2, Insightful)
Sounds like discrimination to me.
Re:I would say... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not really into facial hardware, but I figure it's your face, you can do what you want with it. On the other hand, keep in mind that I'm the one who's got to look at it. "Be liberal in what you accept and conservative in what you produce" has been a good concept for a long time. It's probably applicable here too.
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:5, Insightful)
Just my
Re:Professional appearance for a professional job (Score:2, Insightful)
The idea of a "professional appearance" has been declining for quite some time not because dot-commers got to do whatever they wanted because some work environments clued into the fact that comfortable employees = productive employees. Stop dictating how people should look and start focusing on what they can *do*. (I work in at a professional IT job and while I don't have earrings, many of my fellow straight male co-workers do and no one hassles them.)
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:2, Insightful)
That is to say - you have the choice not to accept society and the conformity it represents, but people are free to do the same to you. The street goes both ways.
good choices vs bad choices (Score:5, Insightful)
Considering how many types of (strech) pierchings and tatoos are difficult to reverse, why would someone want to get one? What kind of long term plan/goal does it promote?
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:5, Insightful)
Differentiate yourself from the other "dotted lines drones" with things that are really important: your character and actions.
"Decent human being" (Score:5, Insightful)
I've known people who work for MS who were pierced from head to toe and I've always thought that to be unprofessional, distracting and quite honestly a bit repulsive. Clean yourself up and show up to work looking like a decent human being people.
In some cultures of human beings, it's considered indecent if one is not pierced.
Look how you want others to treat you.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, I know some people here are going "Oh for the love of God! What century are we in that we still have to conform to such out-dated societal norms!? We must break free... blah blah blah" To those people I say "Grow up!" Your days as a rebellious member of some imagined counter-culture pretty much end when you're out on your own making your way in the world.
Yes, there are places still where there is no dress code... but they're the exception as opposed to the rule. If you want a professional job, you have to play by the professional rules set out by employers. Body mods, strange haircuts/colors etc. are a risk you may choose to take, but like all risks you have to realize there are consequences. You can't just run around and do whatever you want and expect everyone to be cool with it. When you work for someone else, you play by their rules.
Don't like it? Then I offer a modified stock Slashdot response for anyone who ever complains about a piece of software:
"If you don't like it, start your own company and set the rules how you like them! Otherwise, sit down"
Content Is King, but message format matters too. (Score:3, Insightful)
For example (if we translate all of the messages involved into the spoken word): "Hi, I'm a talented, certified Cisco jockey - just what you need. You can trust me with your crucial data, and trust that I will protect you from Starbucks-fueled anarchist semi-punks trying to break through your firewall to deface The Man's web site. Also, whenever I'm in a meeting with management, you'll see that I specifically (and permanently) have chosen to slightly shock and unsettle the average person, and send a not-very-subtle disturbing message of dark counter-culture and pseudo-tribal pop cultism that will completely go against the grain of your company's typical customers, vendors, employees, and management. But despite my doing everything I can to make you stare at me, I insist that you do not, and only consider me just another applicant. All of this stuff I've done to myself means nothing in the context of what I do at work, because who I really am doesn't matter at work, even though I want the salary of a dedicated IT professional for whom the career actually is important. So, let's talk money! And, are you staring at my eyebrow piercings, my mohawk, or my reptile-eye contact lenses? I can't see very well with them in, and I want to be sure that I'm coming across well in this interview."
Well said! (Score:5, Insightful)
Stand out of the crowd by what you do, not what you look like. Anything else is just juvenile.
Well said!
One thing I've noticed -- and it's not just that I'm getting older -- is that young adults are a lot less mature than 20 years ago. In many ways they're more sophisticated, have more general knowledge, and may even be smarter, but what they are not is "adult." College age people are much more like teenagers now than young adults. Professors I talk to bitch about this a lot, having witnessed the decline.
Where am I going with this? These days adolescence seems to last until about 35, with all the juvenile behavior that goes with it.
Who it's a repressed minority (Score:5, Insightful)
Really, who isn't part of repressed minority now-a-days?
Ever since the 60s, if you can claim to be part of some repressed minority, you get to claim the moral highground in any argument and the facts of the argument are no longer relevant to you. Anyone how disagrees with you (no matter how ridiculous and asinine your position is) is The Man, trying to keep you down.
We live in a time where rudeness is rewarded.
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:3, Insightful)
A 15 year old can dye their hair, and 'revolt' against their parents. There's not reason for a 24 year old post-college professional to dress like a teenager and expect respect. If they choose to look like a slob in a professional workplace, they are choosing to passed up by management for promotion into more significant (and higher paying) job roles.
Dress for success is great advice. If you don't believe me, wait until you're unemployed and wonder if the tattoo on your neck/head is going to hurt your chances against the clean cut guy with equivalent experience. It will. It's a shitty reality, but it's reality none-the-less. The baby boomers are in power now. When my generation is in power, things will likely be different.
Re:prudes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:5, Insightful)
Any company that I want to work for needs to want me just as badly. Not "some random worker who looks generally professional," not someone who's ph 7 and completely neutral, but me. I kick asses and make waves. If a process is wrong or a product sucks, I'm going to do my damndest to fix it, to talk to the board about it, put together a team to fix it, or even pull it if necessary, because any project that passes over my desk is a reflection on me and I'm not going to hide behind the company name. I take it personally, and my identity will never be second to that of the "team," who I also hope to be made of unique and powerful minds, not just a bunch of ants or yes-men.
If I'm not valuable enough to a company to cause them to keep me regardless of inoffensive (doesn't smell bad, doesn't hurt others) variations in my appearance, chances are that I'll eventually be treated very badly by them anyway, since they'll want me as nothing more than an interchangeable part in the machine and I'm not one. For some companies, the employee who owns his work is a definite asset, and I think you're more likely to get that in people who have a more personalized appearance.
As a part of my job (editor for a major nonfiction publisher), I now review piles and piles of resumes for various kinds of posts. Maybe this only happens in the creative community, but I find that there are at least as many times when a person's "unique" attributes excite me as there are when they turn me off.
Usually it has to do with competence: those that come across as smart and competent while having things like tattoos and piercings I tend to see as even better candidates because of their ability to pull of an unorthodox look while kicking ass. Those that come across as less than ideal skills wise tend to look even more foolish with tattoos and piercings.
So maybe the truth is that green hair or giant earlobe plugs aren't so much indicators as they are exaggerators: they make the worse look worse, and the better look better.
Short answer.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have an appearance issue that I'm sure makes me less employable: I walk funny. Not a big deal, just a minor neurological problem. I'm sure people look at me and ask themselves "Is that guy on drugs or what?" I've thought of carrying a cane, even though I don't even know how to use one, just to emphasize that it's a minor medical disability, not an effect of a debauched lifestyle. But I'm sure it'd come off as a pose. So I just live with it. Life is often unfair, and it's not productive to get self-righteous about it.
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, of course, because the baby boomers were always clean-cut professional types who never did anything to rebel against authority.
Re:prudes (Score:2, Insightful)
Part of "looking professional" is about your vocal & visual presentation being "accepted" in the workplace.
If someone walks into an interview cussing and swearing, do you think he'll get the job? Are we hindering his/her free speech if the job is denied?
My thoughts (Score:4, Insightful)
However, on the subject of tatoo's and piercings I find I'm quite conservative. If I'm being honest I'd find it hard not to feel suspicous of the judgement of anyone in the field who thought it would a good idea to place bits of metal through their face (other than perhaps for non medial purposes), especially if they are over the age of about 25.
I honestly would not feel comfortable with someone who thought it was a smart decision to do this [bmeworld.com] to himself helping design software or network infrastucture and I wouldn't want him in the team I was in. Based on the avalible evidence, I would not trust his capacity for rational judgement (an absolute core requirement for sort of work I do).
With regard to tattoo's I'm of a similar opinion. Having the name of your wife/kids/football team (or something of similar significance) tattooed on your arm, I'd consider quite reasonable and not count that as a sign of poor judgement. The same would be true for things are 'tastefully' decorative (while realisting that term is subjective, I would include things such as celtic crosses, marui tattoo's [2]).
However, this would not be the case for anyone who I observed who had something overtly tasteless like 'Love/Hate' tatoos across their knuckles, or large tatoos of cartoon characters, like Daffy Duck or Tom & Jerry (also equally negative indicators when worn on ties IMO - with some exceptions).[3]
I'd try not to let someone having facial percings or tasteless tattoo's on it's own as something that stand in the way of someone being hired in a job interview, but I conceed that it could count against them in a tie breaker situation. If there was a position for someone in an overly creative area (such as graphic design, or perhaps marketing) I don't think I would consider percings or tattoo's necessarily negative indicators at all.
[1] NB: With a small 'l'.
[2] Not an exhaustive list
[3] I have a deadbeat realtive who incidentally has all of these, and then some.
Re:Well said! (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry to break it to you pal, but it's just that you're getting older.
at least not in (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Crossing Lines (Score:4, Insightful)
Besides, Hot Topic and Burger King are usually hiring, and they generally don't care about tats and whatnot. If you are in the above situation, be thankful that your moment of stupidity didn't result in death(yours or others), suck it up and move on. Don't expect the world(especially employers) to cut you slack for a boneheaded move you made while drunk.
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well said! (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right, we should all sit around with pained expressions drinking tea and taking interest in the weather.
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:4, Insightful)
I had a group of people in accounting howling with laughter after they attempted to tease me about my red hair. I told them that, confidentially, the president of the company dyes her hair too.
That said, I have a job to make money, and I love what I do. I can't say that I get very attached to companies as much as the people that work there. If the people that work there can't deal with my hair, then I think they care more about my looks than they care about my work.
Either way, I've got that whole eccentric computer geek thing down. I was hired by a companya and told afterword that I was hired because I looked like "a hacker" and they wanted one around in case they "got hacked". Most people just ask my opinion about what computer to buy their kid. Sometimes the stereotype can work to your advantage.
The real "dress for success." (Score:5, Insightful)
When I worked in customer service myself, I got very relieved whenever I got to deal with people who were visibly off-beat, because contrary to popular belief, they tend to be nice people. They go by their own standards instead of forcing themselves to conform to someone else's standards, which means less stress for them, and get this: most people would rather deal with someone who's actually friendly than someone being forced to fake it. Less stress = more relaxed = generally easier to deal with.
I'm also rather saddened that some would call body modification immature. Though I'm sure some immature people modify themselves, it is by no means an indicator; as implied above, I've found a greater degree of maturity in those who are into it than those against it. It's not usually whoring for attention any more than wearing a shirt because you find it aesthetic. It is an aspect of individuality, and individuality is what drives humanity, like it or not. Entrepeneurs and inventors aren't conformists, and I don't think anyone else needs to be either. We're humans, not robots. Frankly, I'd rather my potential jobs be replaced by machines than have to make myself as machinelike as possible to obtain and keep those jobs.
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:2, Insightful)
Funny. There's heaps of people who look like that around here. And they all seem to hang around together too. It looks an awful lot like they're conforming to their own group dynamic. Very rigidly, in most cases. I see more relaxation and variation in choices of ties in most offices...
Personally, I prefer a middle-of-the-line approach in general. Khakis and a T-shirt does it for me. Most IT departments will tolerate that, and if they don't... well.. I own a suit or two. But they'd better be paying enough to make the drycleaning seem worth the bother.
As for piercings or tattoos, they strike me as the bastions of conformity. Just not the kind that gets you money.
But I don't see that it makes any sense to choose to conform to one group of people and then expect another group to throw piles of cash at you. Especially when the social group you're deciding to conform to largely defines itself by not getting on well with the people with the $$$.
Pick who you want to impress, basically. If you want to impress the goths and metalheads, go ahead. They won't generally be hiring, though.
Re:No biggie (Score:1, Insightful)
... and people wonder why I call bible-thumpers ignorant superstitious hicks ...
Oh, yeah, that's right - women should be subservient to men, because Adam was created first, then Eve. And people should fear god, because the fear of god is the beginning of wisdom.
Grow up. Get laid. It's a lot more fun than prayer.
The new repressed minority: Christians (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Insightful)
Its all common sense. I don't flaunt either, and know when it is appropriate to remove the CBR's or wear long sleeves. I think its all relative.
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:2, Insightful)
I think that piercings and outrageous tats would be s sign of 'out of the box' thinking
Many (most?) people that do it today do so because the rest of their peer group do it. There's nothing unconventional about it other than telling the world that you're a sheep, albeit a sheep from a smaller flock.
Dress like daddy (Score:1, Insightful)
Excuse me, but since when the Bible salesman look is a sign of maturity or wisdom?
Some people just don't like it. That's why dress codes have to be enforced genius. Because not everybody likes to wear the same stuff.
There's no merit whatsoever in dressing the way your daddy dressed when he was your age. And by the way, some of us think that judging people based solely on their appearence is the ultimate sign of idiocy.
Re:Well said! (Score:3, Insightful)
Those professors are getting older, too.
I have three kids in college and compare the "you won't believe this!" stories with the stuff that went on in the 60s and 70s, and I'm putting my bet on the ability to edit memory over time.
For that matter, reading between the lines of the stories that my parents' generation told, the 60s weren't any different from the 40s. Read a few memoirs of the gang that fought WWII and read between the lines (they were a bit less frank.)
Put another way: if you remember the 60s, you weren't there.
Re:Well said! (Score:5, Insightful)
I really hope that you are joking here. Where I live (and I moved 2000 miles to here just for this job) houses average > $800,000, condos > $500,000 -- not something your average 27 year old can afford. A $1000/month 500 sq. ft. apartment is the best many of us can do. Living in an apt. or a condo is not something to hold against someone.
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Insightful)
Was the interview one of those times?
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:1, Insightful)
Adult humans should all look approximately the same, since they are, after all, the same high-quality product off the assembly line. The ones who look different are probably defective, right?
Yes, your point of view seems perfectly correct.
Re:Well said! (Score:4, Insightful)
Even then, they live like bachelor slobs in Condos, not even a real house.
I'm not trying to defend the sloven, but measuring a person simply on the basis of whether or not they own a house is pretty narrow minded. I know a person that lives in a condo because it's close to their work and they rarely use their car which means they consume less gas. They are not, however, slobs.
I know a thousand people who drive from the burbs each day in their SUVs and even their Hondas and fill up one to two times a week just going to/fro work.
I mean holy shit, spending 4 hours a day playing video games is something a high-schooler does.
What else should they be doing each night? Watching TV? Reading
Unless you spend each night volunteering at a homeless shelter and being a Big Brother, I don't know what hobbies you could be involved in that are any more altruistic. Although from the way it sounds, the homeless and troubled/needy kids might be below you.
Re:dress for success!, or run the risk... (Score:2, Insightful)
What we are talking about here really is identifiing with the dominant culture. Some people have natural attributes that put them at a disadvantage for the most desirable jobs, for instance they are of dark complexion or have breasts. For these people we have laws to discount these natural difference, as long as the conform to the dominant expections in every possible way.
One can argue, I think rightly, that the jobs should be given to people with the best skills, and the economy suffers from the ineffeciencies caused by the 'old boys club', but reality is upon us. OTOH, the defense is of that the white male with no tattos or piercings and other applicants were pretty much equal, and the choice was made based on proffesional appearance. One can either fight for justice, or get a job. Many choose the large paycheck, and ditch or hide thier peer group identifiers.
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:5, Insightful)
Long hair; Piercings; or Tatoos
has yet been nearly as incompetent, lazy, or idiotic as the former crew.
And yet they haven't figured out how to take control from the inept people who dress and look "normal."
However, buddy-buddy golfers hire more buddy-buddy golfers, and the cycle continues.
The real problem is that you can't get anywhere in life if you take a defeatist attitude, as is the case with much nonconformism. Many (not all of course) are more concerned with being different than with the results of doing so. That's fine, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't shout, "I'm different," and "treat me the same," in the same breath. Obviously it's unconstitutional to discriminate on the basis of certain fundamental differences (sex, race, and religion), but, religious arguments aside, those are things that are beyond one's realm of control.
The nonconformists don't want to be cogs, and think the conformists are blind for not realizing the part they play. In actuality the conformists are fully aware of their cog status, but realize it's the lowest risk/reward scenario, as exemplified by by your vicious cycle argument.
It could even be argued that the conformists have the greater sense of self, since they don't have the overwhelming need to show the world that they're an individual. In reality of course, 20% are leaders, and 80% are followers, regardless of what color their hair is, or how many orifaces have or have not been punctured.
But what it comes down to is the idea that bring professional is about putting your job ahead of yourself and, like it or not, that's all encompassing. Should it matter what color your hair is? Most people inherintly think it shouln't, although they can't explain why except to say "it just shouldn't." Meanwhile both groups feel that the other looks down on them (Note that this isn't really necessarily the case, just the perception), and as long as there's a perception of animosity, it's going to be a barrier. That's just the price to pay for intentionally being "different."
Re:"Decent human being" (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Well said! (Score:3, Insightful)
But, seriously, why worry so much about what's "mature" or "immature?" I think it's good to recognize what's responsible or irresponsible as far as how your actions might affect other people, but beyond that it's really about just living your life.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
You can just be "professional" when you have to... (Score:5, Insightful)
you're an adult now
Yep, totally. And the funny thing about being an adult is being able to choose what you want to do, what to wear and where to work. You want a job at IBM? Then you'll have to adjust to the company's codes.
But it's also stupid to think you can't work in a professional environment unless you look a certain way. In fact it's bullshit. It all depends on what your professional company expects from you.
I wear steel tubes in my ears. I have a long goatee and sideburns. I wear tshirts and jeans. I don't have tattoos yet, but I won't be hindered by my job when it comes to deciding what and where they'll be.
Do you know why I can?
Because it's not what I am expected to be like. Because I don't interact with customers. I don't meet with partners. I'm not an executive and don't want to be. I write code. Basically the only time I'm called out of my office is for status meetings.
Most importantly though, I work for a very liberal tech company. Our execs don't judge you by what you look like or what you wear. I've had hallway chats with high-level VPs while wearing WTF? and "Every time you download music god kills a kitten" shirts and it just isn't an issue.
However, if for some reason I had to give a talk or teach a class to people outside out company, I'd of course choose appropriate attire and look professional, but professional doesn't have to mean being anal-retentive, wearing button-up shirts and kaki slacks.
BUT, if I worked for a company I really liked and they changed the dress code to be button ups and a tie, fine. It's my choice to either work there or find new work. I can adapt, I'm not physically attached to my clothing. The earrings would be a little weird because the holes are kind of large, but I'm sure I could find a solution if I had to.
But I don't.
Re:Well said! (Score:3, Insightful)
But then again, in my parents day, they had to walk 10 miles to and from school each day - uphill both ways, through 6 feet of snow, after chopping and stacking a weeks worth of firewood, milking the cows, and shoeing the horse.
There have been irresponsible and/or adults in every generation.
Re:Short answer.... (Score:2, Insightful)
This is obviously false. Doing good productive work sets you apart. Speaking knowledgably on the topic in meetings sets you apart. Doing shitty work and sounding like a dumbass in meetings does too. Being different is a double edged sword; make sure you can wield it well.
whats wrong with that? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Insightful)
"I find it pleasant to work in a homogeneous environment where everyone looks the same." Did you skip that all those classes in elemtenary school where they teach tolerance, what prejudice is, that its bad, and about diversity. Perhaps you'd be happier in a slave labor camp in some foreign country where everyone looks the same, or is forced to lest they be persecuted, segragated or killed for doing so.
The glory of America is that A. we all dont have to think like you, and B. that we dont all think like you. People fought and died for these rights. Whether or not you or I have any opinion as to their appearance is irrelevant. You're entitled to your opinion that you dont like the appearence, but that's all that you are entitled to. While I for one don't find the appearence to be preferential for myself, they have every right to it, and i'll defend that right to the end. Becuase you never know when it will be my opinion or preference or whatnot that some pompous douche bag such as yourself finds "undesireable" and then tries to outlaw it. The only thing unprofessional is thinking that you somehow know better than everyone else what is right.. personnally i find your attitude to be unprofessional, distracting and repulsive. clean yourself up and act like a decent american... notice how this was posted by an anonymous coward too?
Re:Dress like daddy (Score:4, Insightful)
How you present yourself to the world says a lot about what sort of person you are. If this wasn't the case then we wouldn't spend so much time on our appearance. You certainly wouldn't go through the pain of getting a tattoo or a body piercing if it didn't convey some sort of a message.
You can pretend that piercing your eyebrow six times makes you some sort of "individual," but that's hardly the case. Chances are good that at the club you hang out at on the weekends half the kids there look just like you. I find it amusing to see packs of these so-called "individuals" roaming around together in their freakish uniforms. The reason to get tattoos and body piercings is to fit in with a crowd, plain and simple.
The question is which crowd do you want to fit in with? Do you want to fit in with the crowd that looks like it is going somewhere, or do you want to fit in with the crowd that looks like it is strung out on dope. Sure, it's possible, even probable in your case, that you simply *dress* like a dope fiend without being one. Theoretically the rest of us should spend some time getting to know the person underneath the freakish exterior before we judge you.
Well, that's not the way the world is ever likely to work. First of all, that sort of behaviour can be dangerous. Quite a few of the people that look like dope fiends *are* dope fiends. And while it's possible that the guy who dresses like a Bible Salesman is really some sort of a hideous menace to society chances are in your favor that he is not.
All of us, to some extent or another wear a mask. However, the mask that we choose to wear says a great deal about the person behind the mask. Only an idiot ignores these important clues when meeting new people, and I have no doubt that you do the same thing. Heck, the reality is that the reason for getting these body modifications is that they serve as an advertisement for the type of person that you are and the types of activities that you are interested in. Employers understand this very well, and they also understand that this sort of personal advertisement doesn't always fit in well in a corporate environment. Employers know that their next client is far more likely to be put off by this sort of thing than attracted by it, and so they hire accordingly.
Re:The new repressed minority: Christians (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps its time christians took a hard look in the mirror and asked themselves why they're so offensive to so many people. They claim to believe the bible, but they obviously never read it. Or they believe they can "pick and choose" as to what parts are true - and then impose their choices on everyone else.
We are over-populated, with our resources stretched WAY beyond the breaking point, and yet we still have religions that teach that birth control is a sin.
We know that homosexuality and lesbianism are normal behaviour in many mammals, including humans, and yet we have christians going around saying its an abomination.
We ave bible-thumpers who go around saying (as the post I was replying to tried to claim) that only pagans get their ears pierced, when their own bible says otherwise.
If I'm ripping them a new ass-hole, its because they're so full of shit because their current one obviously isn't working.
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:2, Insightful)
Hell my first day I walked in as a freshly shaved skinhead with a couple of bonus new piercings to celebrate landing the job.
Since then I shave my hair of to the skull approximately every three-four weeks.
Nobody has ever made an issue of my piercings, (stretched lobes, septum, etc).
Sure most of my piercings (13) and tattoos (7) are hidden - but the folk there know I have them.
There's only one thing I change. When I visit a customers site I remove the obvious piercings and wear a suit.
The rest of the time I'm the sole-sysadmin and I can wear what I like. Jeans + T-shirt for most days, a shirt if there's a big meeting/outside people coming in.
I'd not work for somewhere which insisted on all their workers being anonymous and identical suit-clad folk.
I've never heard of anybody in the local area in the UK been given trouble for appearance. Maybe it's different in the USA, or it might be more subtle over here..
Re:Well said! (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm a college student right now. I make very good money supporting myself while I go to school in a tech job. I roll with the same punches your definition of "adults" deal with, and probably more, since I have limited means and have to bleed money in order to stay in school and in a house. I also like to have a good time, before I end up in a family and have to support others - something I'll be happy to do when the time comes. I play video games, and I work hard at my job. I like to go downtown and drink, and I study my ass off to make good grades. I know several people in my same predicament.
There will be immature assholes in every walk of life, at every age. Little changes in the grand scheme of things - the people who were immature in college tend to be immature past it. I wish, that once in for all, people would realize that every group is basically the same, no matter what demographic people try to shove them into...age, appearance, race, religion. We all have the same wiring, the same desires, the same basic instincts and goals. "Young adults" have not changed a goddamned bit since you were one - it's just that you're seeing the bad, and none of the good.
Sorry for the offtopic trolling; I have karma to burn.
Re:tattoos (Score:2, Insightful)
Where do you live? Ink and piercings are about the most conformist, follow-the-leader, thing to do anymore. Want to be a rebel? Don't get ANY tattos or piercings.
Re:My thoughts (Score:2, Insightful)
So what, other than being subject to your negative opinions, makes it a bad idea?
Re:Well said! (Score:4, Insightful)
Respect is something that has to be earned and I know 25 year olds that are twice as capable, wise and worthy of respect than some 50 year olds.
The concept made some sense in ancient tribal society where it was a pretty good bet that the old people killed more buffalo so probably were better at it.
How about I respect the 30 year old, hard working, responsible father of two instead of the 40 year old dead-beat-dad guy who doesn't pay his bills and often mises work because he's two hung over.
In general this doesn't exactly apply to children but still it is more a "respect adults" thing than respect the older people more thing.
Re:prudes (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:2, Insightful)
Discrimination is legal! (Score:4, Insightful)
The only discrimination that is illegal is the type of discrimination that has been held illegal -- usually based on a protected attribute. It is legal to discriminate on someone with green hair, or drives a F.O.R.D. or who wore Calvin Klein jeans on a Tuesday.
Re:As a company owner... (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the dumping gas on your head and lighting it to show that you're a leader... have you tried this yourself? If not you must be like the rest of the sheep. Can't realize how ridiculous you just made yourself look? This is the kind of stuff teenaged kids hear from irrational parents, not from a businessman that they can respect.
All in all, it's a misconception on your part that makes you think that people getting ink done are doing it to express their individuality. I'm sure some do but I can tell you right now that 90% of the people I know have no idea that I have had a fair amount of tattoo work done. I did it for myself.
Re:As a company owner... (Score:2, Insightful)
First it's not mainstream..
And c'mon, "modifications" like piercings and tatoos are prevelent enough that they're no longer individualistic; people are just following the crowd
My company, my rules. You don't want to play along, find somewhere else to work..... I hire leaders, not sheep.
Now that's just ridiculous, you can't have it both ways here.
Re:My thoughts (Score:3, Insightful)
In short:
o) Because 15-20% of piercings involve unforeseen complications (excessive bleeding, permanent deformation, infection and dental/gum/sense-of-taste damage with respect to tongue piercing), not least due to the lack of proper medical training by the people who carry out this sort of cosmetic surgery.
o) Because surgeons, doctors and dentists around the world have been saying for the last 20 years or so what a bad idea they think the trend is piercing is due the problems that arise as as a result - because no one ever expects it to go wrong for them (I'll leave Googling for the vast amounts of information on that to the reader).
o) Because it's not yet socially acceptable to a large number of rather conservative people (at least at the level I work at), which means that it negatively impacts on the team I am in by extension if one of those members has their credibility undermined.
As I've already said in this thread, no-one should need to explain why unnecessary cosmetic surgery is a daft idea. I regard it as one of those things your just intuitively supposed to know. Ditto for understanding what's regarded as being widely socially acceptable.
Re:Look how you want others to treat you.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Can having body modifications hinder someone in their career? Yes, clearly they can.
Should body modification hinder someone in their career? No, I can not imagine any rational moral argument that would conclude so.
The most rational business/economic argument against having employees with body modifications is that the business deals with prejudiced clients, and it may lose money by losing the business of those prejudiced clients. That prejudice is rife in these comments, by people saying things like "it tells people you don't care about the job", or "you need to grow up and leave your imagined counterculture", or "how would you feel if your lawyer/doctor/babysitter showed up with tattoos?" and so on. You get the same kind of projections on lesbians as hating men, or men/women who perform certain jobs, and the various racial prejudices and thoughts people have. While someone with body modifications made a choice to have them, and people do not get to choose their sex, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, the prejudice is morally equivelant and arises from the same error in reasoning. Mistaking aesthetic factors as indicators of merit and character.
So, I think that a lot of people could read what I said and disagree with me in two ways.
One set of people would be the prejudiced and conservative people who would say "Look, that's just the way it is. Deal with it. Why do all of these people have to raise a stink over thier childish, rebellious little fads they want to engage in? You aren't special, you aren't some revolutionary rebel, you are just a regular dude who has to earn a living like the rest of us. You are an adult now, and none of that crap is important." Another set of people may agree with me in the abstract, but then go on to say, "Well, that's the way it might be in a perfect world, but the reality is that, unfortunately, people are going to judge you on these factors, and you can't change that, so you are going to have to play the game by the rules."
I agree that, in comparision to many things, the right to have body modifications without forfieting your place in society is relatively minor. Still, I find it an unneccessary little oppression that makes the world a greyer, less fun and interesting place. People get hostile about it. Why can't the president have a mohawk? Just goofy playing around with appearance. Why does adulthood require we give these things up? Does the requirement make society a better place?
Anyway, it is just one of those little things that I think sucks a bit about life, and I will complain about it whenever I damn well please. People like to tell other people "you can't change this", or "if you don't like it, you can either do this (X) or shut up". Setting arbitrary limits on the discussion, narrowing the range of possibilities.... Nope. You are wrong.
Re:I'm brilliant, have a tattoo and two piercings. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:No biggie (Score:3, Insightful)
Some of us do it because we enjoy the way it looks.
Tatooed like a human cartoon? Or showing your pierced tongue at any occasion just to make sure others know you're friggin cool-looking?
bleh!
Re:Professional appearance for a professional job (Score:3, Insightful)
For me, if you want to have any decent chance of being successful running a professional business, you need to learn how not to judge a book by it's cover.
Guys...unless you are gay, leave the ear rings at home.
So when you're conducting an interview with a man who is wearing earrings, do you ask if they're gay? Just curious, but I'm pretty sure you'd have a lawsuit on your hands.
Christ. Who cares if someone has pink hair? Unless you're working at a fabric store or some other weird place that caters to old Church ladies, it doesn't have an impact on your job performance.
How about judging someone based on their compotence and ability to get the job done? This is just another form of bigotry, rather than evaluating someone based on their skills you're taking a lazy shortcut and judging them based on how they choose to alter their meaningless physical appearance.
The guys with dyed hair and piercings aren't the ones who need to grow up. It's the douche bags who judge them based on such silly, insignificant, external factors.
Will clients remember your pitch, or your tattoo? (Score:5, Insightful)
At one point, she said something quite wise about appearances, that is a perfect answer to the article's question:
"When a client leaves a meeting with you, the client should remember WHAT YOU SAID, and NOT how you looked".
As a background, I work for a software development company that sells to large financial companies; many of us "geeks" get to meet clients so the lecture was very popular.
To add to that, my own view is "If you need to distinguish yourself from other people by what you look like, there's a big chance you have no other beneficial qualities to dinstinguish yourself with". There are exceptions to this, but not many in my experience.
-DVK
--
"Can't act. Can't sing. Balding. Can dance a little."
- Human Resources Department judgment on Fred Astaire's Hollywood screen test in the early 1930s.
BRAVO! (Score:1, Insightful)
Yeah right, that won't happen. They're "forgiven", remember? They can do whatever they want now, because they're forgiven, so doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, isn't a requirement for them. They said the magic prayer, now they have a license to be jackasses.
BTW, I'm a Christian, but seldom admit that in public because of the type of Christian you're talking about. I remain convinced they are a vocal minority, but there are enough of them around that I'm embarassed to even be identified as a Christian as I don't want to be associated with them.
Sad isn't it, I'm not embarassed to say I believe what Jesus taught, or that I consider him the messiah, but I am embarassed to be associated with the clowns like the GP.
BRAVO. Rip them new ones. Jesus ripped the pharisees(the true spiritual ancestors of people like the gp) new ones constantly. GREAT POST!
Re:"Decent human being" (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:prudes (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm personally pretty damn liberal about appearance; I don't really give a shit what anyone wears. But when I see someone stroll in for a job interview with tattoos and piercings and unnatural hair colors, I dread the possibility of their being hired. Why? Because ninety-nine percent of them will end up spending an inordinate amount of work time talking about their body modification hobby, or bitching about the reactions they get, or otherwise trying to make themselves the center of attention rather than get any work done.
There's a reason companies have dress codes, and aside from "front counter" positions, it has nothing to do with relating to the public. It's basically a test of maturity and self-discipline. In other words, can you put your ego aside long enough to get a good eight hours a day of work done?
Another poster made some adolescent remark about not wanting to be treated like a commodity. Guess what? Unless you are in some really specialized field, you are a commodity. Get over it. But then, that takes us back to the question of whether you can put your ego aside enough to work as part of a team.
Re:"Decent human being" (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm in no way endorsing circumcision (of any sort), but to discriminate against someone who came from a culture where that was done to them in order for them to be considered "decent", and then consider that person "indecent", is... well, needlessly discriminatory.
The same exact standard applies to piercings (which I'm not too fond of myself, but hey, if people want to do things to themselves...). If someone came from a culture where, in order to be a "decent" adult, they had to have had a bone run through their nose and huge discs in their ears, and then they came to America and wanted to work for MS as a programmer, would you say they should not be hired because they look like that? Now, what if an American decided that he LIKED that look and did it to himself? How is that any different?
Re:No biggie (Score:4, Insightful)
And why is it that you jump directly to the 'slave labor camp' analogy?
It's like talking to someone who compares everything to the Nazis. It's annoying, and it marginalizes what actually happened.
"I think we should all wear uniforms.."
"Yeah, and the Nazis thought that too.."
"We should line this up straight."
"What are you, some kind of Nazi?"
As if lining stuff up straight, and wearing uniforms somehow puts a person in the same vein as the Nazis.
The Nazis weren't bad because they wore uniforms, or because they tried to achieve order.
They were bad because they tortured and killed millions of people. They attacked their neighboring countries, they treated people worse than animals.
But enjoying order does not mean that a person should be compared to the Nazis.
Re:"Decent human being" (Score:2, Insightful)
Well presumably in the example put forth that is exactly what has happened.
It's called reality. Deal with it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Businesses should be allowed to set whatever dress code they want. Don't like it? Don't work there. Given that I believe that businesses in general shouldn't have to hire anyone they don't want for any reason, I suppose I'm in a minority.
Seriously, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions. It's that simple. I don't think anyone out there that gets a piercing or a tatoo or whatever doesn't know that a lot of people, right or wrong, have issues with that.
I have my ear pierced and while it's really no big deal nowadays, there are some places that it's an issue. You know what? I have no desire to deal with or work with a company that's that hung up on an earring. They're tight ass pricks. That's their right. It's my right not to want to deal with them and work elsewhere.
The biggest problem I have with the "different" or "extreme" crowd is that some of them think it's *their* right to do whatever they want and that everyone around them should just deal with it. Yeah? Fuck you guys. Do what you want. I'm all for it. However, quit telling *other* people who they should feel and think. Do what you but be willing to accept the fucking consequences.
Businesses exist, for the most part, to make money. If your cute little lip ring or tatoo impedes that, why should they hire you? Even if you're skilled, it's likely there's someone else who is just as skilled who isn't outside that business's comfort zone. And again, if someone is going to get that caught up over a lip ring, do you really *want* to work there? I wouldn't.
If your response is, "Well I *need* X job." Take your piercings out. If you've got tats it's likely you know the possible consequnces when you got them. If you didn't, you're probably not bright enough to be qualified for any place with a dress code. Beggars can't be choosers. Come on people, this is real life. I'm not telling anyone to give up their "individuality" or personal "expression." I'm not telling anyone to "grow up" because I personally have almost no issues with tats or piercings. (Although there is a point of excess that even bothers me. Deal with it.) Hell, I'm the kind of person who would lose clients before firing or not hiring someone based on appearance. However, that's *my* choice and it's not my place to other people hiring how they need to run *their* business.
Re:"Decent human being" (Score:4, Insightful)
When a person takes steps to deliberately violate local custom and norms you have to wonder if he'll chose to treat the rules and customs of the workplace with the same disdain.
Also when hiring persons who will be 'the face' of the company (customer relations of any sort, including the checkout guy and receptionist and actor in the comercial, etc.) you wan't people to conform to the target audience's (the customer's) view of acceptable within reasonable boundries.
Mycroft
Re:dress for success!, or run the risk... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:No biggie (Score:3, Insightful)
BCR = Ball-Closure Ring
CBR = Captive Bead Ring
Personally, I refer my my earing as a BCR.
My current contract which ISN'T a major global bank, insists on Ties, Which is kinda irritating. Add on to that no use of headphones (it's an open plan office, next to the support guys, try programming in that), and NO bod-mods on display, have put me in a position where I've had to take my BCR out.
Previous to this contract I've working in several banks in London UK, an have always eventually managed to put my earing back in...
I hate the dress code thing. What I wear has no bearing on what I can do. It's always shite managers who don't know their arse from their elbows that insist on these stupid rules.
IT in Corporates has completely gone to the dogs. It's run by suits for suits, and we've all become drones. I'm old enough to remember when being in an IT dept. was a fun thing, where you could innovate and invent and create. Now it's all 'can we buy that off the shelf?' so that us guys with real skills have become overpaid 'IT product buyers'.
*sigh* Roll on the revolution.
-Jar.
Re:You can just be "professional" when you have to (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, I can occasionally talk to a customer, or draw a flowchart on a whiteboard in front of an audience. But the keyword is: occasionally. I'd very much sit at a computer than spend every day in meetings, corporate power games, or trying to make Wally finally actually do _some_ work, _any_ work. I very much like it when he's not really my problem.
Or to put it otherwise: if I wanted to do either management or marketting, I'd have went to a business college. I chose computers for a reason: that's what I like to do.
So other people will get promoted instead. Good. That I like.
So I've had people I've recruited end up my boss. I'm ok with that. They probably deserved it too, with the amount of show-business they put up for the boss instead of actually working or actually learning programming. But anyway, it still means that I do the job I like.
Some people seem to assume an uni-dimensional rat race and that money is the only thing that matters. They'd do _anything_ for money, or for some stupid social acceptance goal like "promotions are good". They just have to chase some stupid goal that will actually make their life _worse_, much like dogs chase a car: never stopping to think what they'd do if they actually caught one.
At one point it's not even a promotion any more, it's just really switching carreer tracks to a completely new line of work. A new work which doesn't even resemble the old one, and you're not even prepared for, and you're probably incompetent for or don't have the right personality type for. (E.g., an introvert won't really enjoy a life where 8 hours a day are spent talking to everyone, from making sure what the team is doing, to meetings with clients, to meetings with higher level management, etc.)
It's called "Peter's Principle".
Is it worth it? Is it what you _really_ want to do with your life? Would you switch jobs to _anything_, including driving a garbage truck or shovelling manure, if it paid better and was fashionably disguised as a promotion?
Well, if you can honestly answer "yes" to that, yeah, you're in the right rat race. Keep up, brown nose, backstab, and don't let the Joneses get a promotion before you do.
If not, well, then you understand why some of us have "quality of life" as the _goal_, and money and promotions are just _means_ to that end. If the trade-off involved in getting those means actually move you farther from the goal, is actually a bad trade-off. One to be avoided.
(Just as examples of such trade-offs: you get more money but at the expense of getting a stress-related ulcer, or doing so much overtime that you don't actually have the time to enjoy that money, or whatever. Was it worth it? Did it really improve your life?)
Re:As a company owner... (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, and also your loss when you fail to see potential in someone just because they have a tatoo or a piercing.
If you're unwilling to follow something as simple as the dress codes, what does that tell me about what to expect when I ask you to do something important that you don't want to do?
Still, why not focus on your business and the quality of your products instead of spending time making up silly rules? People are comfortably in wearing what they usually wear, and comfortably poeple is something you want in your office. Trust me.
Yes, piercings, tatoos, beachwear as office wear, etc, has become more prevelent. But it's still not mainstream, and it's definately not corporate. Some people are still offended or uncomfortable with it. If you don't care about other people's sensitivities, even if you think they're stupid, why should they care about you?
What other people are you talking about? Yeah, some people might be sensitive to afro-americans. Or gays. Or muslims. Or poeple with bad breath. I guess the only kind of people working for you are white males, age 25, normal weight. Normal everything. That environment doesn't sound very inspirational to me.
And c'mon, "modifications" like piercings and tatoos are prevelent enough that they're no longer individualistic; people are just following the crowd. I hire leaders, not sheep.
Then perhaps you should fire yourself for being a sheep in your society instead of being a daring leader, wouldn't you say?
Re:prudes (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm transgendered and currently in the process of changing my gender presentation. In my personal experience, people are at best curious and at worst outright violent/hostile.
I don't think this kind of thing - the earrings and tats at work - is a gender-prude thing, though. I think it's more of a "this cog is not like the other cogs" thing. Unless you're in a "creative" position or working for a firm that values self-expression on the job, looking different from everyone else makes the powers that be think you might behave different from everyone else. They don't want individuals - they want meat machines that fill a certain role in a predictable way.
An Over-50 reaction (Score:3, Insightful)
When Truman Capote wrote In Cold Blood he came away with an observation. The psycho-criminals he met were invariably heavily tatooed and that led him to speculations about the craziness trying to come out. So I think an interviewee with a lot of modification would have his stability looked at suspiciously or be considered a bit socially retarded for falling for a fashion emulating psycho-criminals. Would you come into an interview for a professional or managerial job in biker leathers and chains?
Personally, I always had a bit of bemusement. The guys with two-feet of hair in the late seventies had an easy fashion fix. But scrubbing those tats, oh -- around this decade, was going to hurt -- the pocketbook if nothing else.
Re:Content Is King, but message format matters too (Score:3, Insightful)
But that's exactly my point. Unless you come right out and say what the 1-inch hole in your earlobe and the four studs in your forehead do mean, you're leaving it up to the average person to guess. And most people are going to assume that whatever it "means" to the person who did it, the highly visible nature of it, especially on the face, is so that it will be seen. The vast majority of the things we all do to our appearance are done to project some facet of a larger image, to convey alignment with a particular way of life or attitude. Even if that's not true for a particular person (say, they have to have six eyebrow rings for
But it still doesn't matter - it's in the eye of the beholder, and when you staple your lips, you're going to be subject to whatever the average person thinks about what you're trying to say. And if you aren't going to continually start all of your business conversations with an explanation of "it's not really what you think" or "don't worry, it only looks like it hurts" or "people have been piercing faces for thousands of years, get over it" before you talk about buying and implementing that new load balancing router pair, well... then you have to put up with me, and everyone else, jumping to contextual conclusions about what you are trying to say. People in an environment where they can afford to pay real career-type IT salaries to quality nerds (which is what this whole thread is all about) don't usually have time sort through all of that, and aren't going to want to wonder if every staffer, vendor, or customer that Mr. Pierced is going to be in front of is going to want to take the time either.
The shorthand interpretation of the look in question is registered pretty solidly on the wider culture. Never mind the irony of people trying so hard to be "unique" that they look just like half a million other Goths or whatever, the issue is that most people have at least some notion that the heavily pierced, tatooed person is hoping that all that decoration will be seen (especially when it's in places, like on the face, where it can't be missed). And the desire for it to be seen equates to an expectation that the underlying message is either obvious, or is suitable for speculation. And to the 40-year-old who manages the department (and the budget that would pay the tatooed IT person wanting that stable paycheck and health benefits) is going to make some snap decisions based on that first impression that Mr. Pierce is forcing her to digest. It doesn't matter what his reason is for the body art, any more than it matters what Mark Rothko was thinking when he painted: the audience will draw its own conclusions unless you provide a running commentary, and you can't spend your day at work providing one and still expect that time to be as valuable (and well paid) as someone who spends that same time, say, writing code or tuning servers.
Re:"Decent human being" (Score:2, Insightful)
You seem to be suffering under the delusion that our (I could be considered a member of mainstream American culture (but just barely)) culture is still the same as the 1950's IBM white-shirt-and-tie period. I'm not sorry to say that things have changed. Piercing (even beyond womens' ears) is now more prevalent than cufflinks. Tattoos are more common than tie tacks. Chips-and-salsa has replaced the Jello-mold.
While most of the BM aesthetic is lost on me, I revel in the freedom that we now enjoy.
Re:No biggie (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What do you do for a living? (Score:2, Insightful)
Answer me this: have you given any thought to how your tattoos will look when you are 60? That was the question I asked myself as a teenager, when the topic came up.
Re:The new repressed minority: Christians (Score:2, Insightful)
Just because you saw it on the History chanel doesn't mean it's true. Do your own research.
Cross culture travel (Score:4, Insightful)
Basically nothing good comes from it and she got it so long ago it isn't important to her anymore. The problems or fears it causes include:
Well this is just my take, I have nothing personal against tattoos or piercings (well on girls tattoos are sexy to me but I feel less professionally interested in pierced people.. and my eyes are always going to the piercing instead of their eyes so it hinders my communication with them I think). If you think you might work in a conservative national or corporate culture one day it probably is better to go with a small tattoo than a piercing is my guess, but if you can make it without either until you are out of school you'll probably be happier later on I'd guess. Whatever!
Body mods and peer pressure (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No biggie (Score:3, Insightful)
And it's turtles, all the way down.
An employer's view (Score:3, Insightful)
I was raised ever so slightly before tatoos and (to a lesser extent) piercings became a big deal. My opinion is that tattoos are for hookers and sailors.
On the other hand, I don't want to exclude people with tattoos and odd piercings from my labor force if it hurts my business.
All things being equal, I will take the non-tattooed, non-pierced person over his/her body modded competitor for a job at my office. Talent will rule, however, to some extent.
I view tattoos/mods (that my clients can see and may be offended/unnerved by) as being a "cost" of hiring the employee. If the cost exceeds the expected benefit, they won't get hired.
Another interesting issue comes up as well -- what to do with Plain Jane who comes into my office unmodded who hits 30 years old and wants to have a lifestyle change to shake things up? She goes out and gets a Mike Tyson tiger tattoo on part of her face. She is in a face-to-face customer relations position. What do I do? My answer is that she'd be canned.
Am I a right-wing fascist dickhead? Nope. I'm simply making an economic decision that results in putting more food on my table. I have no duty or obligation to carry the costs of an employee's body mod. To the extent that prejudice against body mods remains in my community which prejudice can cost me business, I am not allowing my employees to transfer the payment of that cost so that it comes out of my wallet. It's your decision to body mod, you should pay all the costs.
Until body modded people have protected status under nondiscrimination statutes, I have the right to fire (so long as I have a written policy, etc.), and I will. Not because I hate boddy modding, but because I don't want it to hurt my business.
If you smoke, you choose to pay the costs of smoking, and hyour employer shouldn't have to subsidize you. Likewise, if you body mod, your employer has no obligation to subsidize your lifestyle choice.
If you're gay, black, hispanic, disabled, etc., you cannot be discriminated against unreasonably because it is not a choice. I certainly won't discriminate on any of those grounds. On the other hand, body modders are not "forced" to do anything, and businesses are certainly free to discriminate. They get to make a choice as to whether forgoing that portion of the labor pool is good or bad for business. Based on my experiences, I think people will make similar business decisions as I would -- people with body-mods (obvious ones) will pay a penalty in the workforce as a result.
In today's employment market, I would be loathe (as an employee) to hurt my career prospects by body modding in a way that forces me into a competitive disadvantage. If your choices are based on non-monetary concerns, by all means mod away, but don't cry about it if it hurts your job prospects. If you do, you're being either whiny or naive, and neither of those characteristics are things I look for in my employees.
GF.
Re:No biggie (Score:3, Insightful)
Wah! Wah! Someone doesn't like the things I do to my body! They're destroying the country!
Dude, get a grip. You have a right to dress like a complete idiot, and other people have the right to say you're dressing like a complete idiot. That's how this America thing works.
The image thing goes both ways (Score:2, Insightful)
I keep my appearance at work strictly professional. I'm not here to make a statement by my personal appearance; I'm here to do a job. The only piercings you can see when I'm at work are my ears - everything else is either covered up or has concealing jewelry in it. I wear business casual to work, just like everyone else. None of the managers in my direct line all the way up to the VP of my division have any problem with how I look, nor have I taken flak from any of the managers here on site.
To me, being allowed to wear earrings to work shows that my employer respects me as an individual. It's a courtesy that costs the company nothing, but it improves my morale immensely. It also builds loyalty. My piercings are not just a fashion statement, they *mean* something to me. I would turn down a $10k raise to work at another company, if I had to take my plugs out and let my lobes close back up to do it. You may think I'm foolish, that's your perogative, but we all have our priorities in life, and this is mine.
I've interviewed a number of potential new hires to the company, and they've all been favorably impressed by the fact that my large earrings are allowed. It conveys the message that here, individuality is respected. Your technical competence and accomplishments matter far more than anything else. This is the kind of culture a lot of young people, myself included, are looking for.
Yes, us pierced people are well aware that some people are going to discriminate against us because of how we look. That just means we have to work harder and perform better than the rest. If I were an employer, that's the kind of attitude I'd be looking for in an employee.
Re:Well said! (Score:3, Insightful)
You are judged by appearance (Score:2, Insightful)
Mmmmmm! lip piercings! (Score:1, Insightful)
Now, I'm not sure what his talents and skills are. What I do know is he's got 6 piercings in his face and about 8 in his ears. He has a tattoo on his neck that appears to be a gangsta with a pistol. Underneath the cartoon thug it says, "4-LIFE".
Wow. I am absolutely stunned that this type of discrimination is going on! I have no problem whatsoever with someone like this serving my fries, cutting my lawn or picking up my garbage.
This is outrageous that this fine young man can't make a go in this world!
Folks. Sometimes you can't make your own rules. I know you are smarter than the rest of the world. I know your personal sense of style and individuality is what everyone should embrace and hearld. But we don't. You look like a fucking jackass. Is it a coincidence that the prison yard is a ocean of inked skin? Is it?
Re:No biggie (Score:3, Insightful)
In the version I'm reading, that ends with ``... on these - the two commands - all the law and the prophets do hang.'' The ``two commands'' are love God and love your neighbor. The part about ``all the law and the prophets do hang'' means that those two commands are the essense of the entire old Testament.
All that crap about what's clean or unclean, cooking kids or charging interest, really doesn't matter in comparison to whether you love God and your neighbor.
So, given all that, why did I say we should all be following the ten commandments? The ten commandments are practical advice about practical expressions of that love. Why a stricter version? It's not enough to merely ``not kill'': if we love our neighbors, we won't even wish they were dead. You can follow the letter of the ten commandments perfectly, and still fall far short of following their spirit.
Re:Well said! (Score:3, Insightful)
I will ask her who she is sleeping with as I got fixed a year or two ago. It was a choice we made as her background makes her highly susceptible to having post partum psychosis as well as birth defects. If we change our minds we have already decided we will adopt.
Having kids doesn't make you mature either looking at the crappy parents out there who think that the TV is a great babysitter or that throwing their kids in with a bunch of other kids will raise them, it only expands the experiences that a person will have. We have chosen right now to not have children and it has nothing to do with maturity. Maturity is not having kids because society says you need to and then expecting others to raise them. If we decide we want kids it will be on our own terms.
To quote Keanu Reeves in the only sensible thing he has ever said in a movie: "You need a license to drive a car, even to fish, but any asshole can be a parent"
The increased risk of cancer etc. is just statistics. You can make the same correlation with getting in an accident and eating carrots.
Re:The new repressed minority: Christians (Score:2, Insightful)
Power was very unlikely to be a factor in the set of books chosen, as the books themselves did not give power. The christian faith was just recently (less than 15 years before) legalized and supported by the emperor. The views of all of the participants were not unanimous, but the prevailing belief was that the Holy Spirit would guide the majority of the participants to come to a consensus belief. At that council there was a lot of people that believed a lot of different and conflicting things (the reason for the council!).
Just because I give myself a particular label, does not mean I practice or believe what others practice or believe who give themselves the same label. Labels are only good as a definition, if there is a stable value for that definition. Mormons (whether the think they do or not) believe in a God that is vastly different than Roman Catholcs or most protestant chrisitian religions. Muslims who hate all non-muslims and wish to kill them or have them killed, probably believe something different than a great majority of other Muslims. How do you tell the difference? It is in what they do and think.
If you want to believe what you wrote, that is fine, and you are well within your rights to to believe that. But to insinuate that you know the "true" christian belief and history, while having basic misunderstanding of how, what, and why events happened does not make your belief the true christian belief, for which you can bash to stupid christians.
What I especially find funny is when some people show a lack of tolerance for another set-of-people for that they claim that set-of-people are intolerant. If you have a right to be an a**hole, than why should you not accept their rights to be a**holes?