Body Modifications Still Hinder IT Professionals? 1461
thedeletekey writes "The Detroit News recently ran an article about body modifications in the workplace. This got me thinking; do body modifications such as tattoos and piercings still hinder IT professionals in the workplace? Or is this a thing of the past, as these types of personal changes have become more common in recent years. In my experience, I've found both stringent dress codes requiring business casual attire, and no visible body modifications, to no dress code at all. What has the rest of the IT world found to be common?"
tattoos (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:2, Interesting)
Your post demonstrates this statement clearly:
Anyone who deviates from what society preceives to be "correct" is a danger to the order of society and threatens people's egos because someone else is trying to get ahead in life on a different path.
It's up to the clients, really (Score:4, Interesting)
Then one day one of our desk-side techs (who really was a nice guy, by the way), got a complaint reported by a user. It was a little old lady who litterally was scared of the tech because of the ink on his arms. (a guitar, if memory serves) Instantly a new dress code went into place stating no visible tatoos. He was banished to long sleeves for the rest of his time at the company.
The moral: In a consulting company it ain't the boss who sets dress code. The client does.
-MrLogic
Dress codes in work (Score:1, Interesting)
To all of the idiots pointing out the necessity of appearing 'professional'; these garments are simply cloth wrappings on an ape. Suits are an invention of the last 150 years -- before that, European male fashion was far more interesting, allowing much greater room for self-expression and individuality. The perception that everyone has to dress identically to succeed is a relatively new development, and one that in all probability won't last. In short, I have no desire to pander to the predjudices and expectations of the ignorant in my private or working life, which is why I now pursue those avenues of employment and study that enforce no such strictures.
NB: I'm still employed.
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm employeed in a professional role (Score:2, Interesting)
But I've ever had any trouble with my tongue ring, and two ear pirecings.. And ner do I
In my country (New Zealand) it doesn't really matter what you're wearing, so long as you look well-dressed and look like you know what you're doing..
Some applies from my experience in Australia, but I can't comment for any other countries..
Microsoft doesn't care (Score:3, Interesting)
There still is some rudimentary dress code, though. You can't come to work wearing nothing but underwear for example. There's a legend, and I don't know if it's true or not, that once upon a time there was a guy at MSFT who was too cheap to rent an appartment. So he lived in his office. One Sunday someone caught him in his underwear watching TV in a conference room. The guy got fired. So there you go. Start the party, bash Microsoft for its oppression of nudity in the workplace.
From an IT Manager (Score:3, Interesting)
I manage a group of IT professionals, and every one of them has tats and piercings. But it is all done in a way to keep it out of sight during work. Even the large ear piercings are covered with plugs (or whatever the body-mod crowd cares to call them) while at work.
At Happy Hour, the sleeves and pants get short and the fishing lures go in the ears. Nice work, but NOT something that should be shared with professionals and client reps.
But I NEVER would have considered them if they had interviewed with facial mods. I simply could not allow that kind of presentation to clients.
Oh, and my ear piercing scars were removed when I had those "moles" removed by the doctor.
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:tattoos (Score:2, Interesting)
If you wanted to see a few examples of various military regulations here's a few googled links:
Navy:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/ [about.com] navy/l/bltattoo.htm [slashdot.org]
Marines:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marines/l/bltattoo
Air Force: (not a copy of actual regs but a few emails)
http://www.beforeyoutattoo.com/tattoos-and-the-mi
Re:prudes (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree with you whole heartedly. Reading over the posts related to this story is a mixture of amusing and sad.
The amount of posters that are trying their hardest to insist (mostly anonymously) that if someone has a piercing or a tattoo they are a freak and a loser.
I have quite a few tattoos, all in heavy blacks. I have piercings (tongue, ear cartlidge, and had some chest ones) as well as scarification and some branding. Admittedly, assides from my ears and my tongue, all of it sits neatly under my shirt and suit at work. But, both my CEO and CTO have seen them and not been concerned one bit. Heck, I have had them for the last 4 jobs and none of my superiors have blinked an eyelid. Only time I was asked explicitly to cover them up was when I was doing some contracting work for a private Catholic funded hospital. And even then, due to doing a cable inspection for them, I had to crawl around under desks and in a data room, so ended up rolling my sleaves up. No one there minded.
Mind you, that said, my body art is for me. I don't do it to impress anyone (hence why 99% of sits under my clothes).
And frankly I think people need to chill and (especially the people on slashdot) realise that by demanding others are freaks for having body art they risk being the same as the people that call them freaks for using linux / bsd / beos etc.
You say potato, I say ... (Score:4, Interesting)
I prefer to think of it as body modifications providing important hiring visual queues for IT managers.
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:2, Interesting)
That's been the attitude of several companies I've interviewed for in the South of England.
Their logic goes as follows:
Some bright graduates dress eccentrically.
Therefore any eccentrically dressed graduates must be bright.
Therefore only employ graduates who dress eccentrically at the interview.
Re:"Decent human being" (Score:2, Interesting)
"In some places they do things this way" is not a valid arguement. We are not in that culture, therefore its customs really don't matter. If we WERE in that culture, the arguement wouldn't be taking place. Why bring it up?
Re:"Decent human being" (Score:3, Interesting)
I brought it up because "decent human being" is so imprecise. Were it "decent Western(tm) human being" I wouldn't have female-dogged.
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Interesting)
My kid went through this when she was about 13, I talked to her about it and she told me it was how she and her friends expressed their individuality.
I asked her if they were sitting around one day and someone said "Hey, let's all be different...together". She thought about that for about two weeks and figured out that she was better off deciding for herself how to be an individual.
BTW, before anyone decides they know who I am, I've got tattoos that were old enough to drink in the last century (and I prolly got 60 hrs in on
Ah, I miss the '70's. Harley's were cheap, weed was free and only dirtbags had tattoos...and you could trust them with your money or your guns or anything else, except your old lady.
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:1, Interesting)
I did not become a punk rabble-rouser to give up my civil liberties, and if anyone doubts this is a civil liberty, imagine how many Post-Holocaust jews were turned down because of the bumbers tattooed INVOLUNTARILY on their arms.
The lesson I derive from history on this topic is quite simple -- back town and they will trample you, assert your right to dissent and they may fight you, but you will move mountains in the long run. Read King's Letters from Jail.
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Interesting)
I had to go to the piercer to get new balls and have her put them back in.
Although I agree. I have dreads and both ears pierced, and I got three jobs offered to me for this summer. So I don't think it's really much of an issue.
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Interesting)
Dude, I hate to break it to you... (Score:2, Interesting)
My personal prediction is that the popularity of tatoos and non-ear piercings (and loud, ugly American motorcycles) will decrease steadily for the next 10-20 years as the kids growing up see just how stupid "the old folks" look with their saggy, faded tats and bodily fishing tackle and Harleys and on and on...
Tats and piercings are for pussies and poseur. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:2, Interesting)
I have a Booboo bear (Yogi's sidekick) over my heart because that was my grandfather's nickname for me (Booboo) and he is/was very dear to me.
My other tattoo is on the back of my neck like a shirt tag and is:
01100111
01100101
01100101
01101011
Which is left as an exercise to the reader to figure out.
Re:No biggie (Score:2, Interesting)
My tatoos are from my Navy days - got 'em both on the way to that first silly skirmish in Iraq - one on my right shoulder, and the other prominently displayed on my left forearm. (It's a hell of a conversation starter - and the artwork has even MORE signifigance to me as a Freemason all these years later.)
I _don't_ wear ear rings to work... but I also don't wear them around the house either. I tend to throw 'em in place as an accessory, when I feel the need to dress the part. [I run in several different circles these days - many I never dreamed I'd be involved with back in the days when I didn't expect to be a) a father or b) live to the ripe age of 35.]
I pierced my ears in high-school... and was not allowed to wear them in the Navy - at least not in uniform. Personally, I always viewed this as a form of sexual discrimination... but history and tradition certainly have their place I suppose. Even the females are required to wear pretty vanilla ear rings - nothing particularly flashy, etc.
I work for the State of Kansas now, in a university environment. It would take something pretty egregious on my part to lose the job... I'm quite certain I could show up with the rings in, and not have much fallout to deal with other than folks wondering why I "recently got pierced" since I don't think anyone has really cared enough to notice the holes. Who knows - since I had like 1/2 and inch of hair in the interview, and nearly have a mullet now (accompanying a partial beard because I'm lazy), I'm sure it wouldn't suprise them.
Re:Well said! (Score:2, Interesting)
Now to begin with, I'm going to mention I'm not into body modification. I personally think it's kind of silly. However, the "old generation" does equally silly things that I also have trouble respecting (eg: starchy uncomfortable clothes).
Calling someone immature because they choose to act differently than yourself is kind of -- well -- imature in itself. Oh, I agree, there are a lot of immature college students -- and some of them were very distracting when I was still in college -- but this had nothing to do with their hair style, the clothes they wore, or the strange piercings they chose to get. The problem was that they were not focussed on school -- and I found it rather annoying that I was using my own hard earned money to take a course only to have some idiot kids talking over the prof. The problem is that mommy and daddy are paying for their classes, and the kids can't really appreciate what they're blowing.
But, as for maturity -- I find the old generation has a tendency to misuse the word. Wearing a bunch of starchy uncomfortable clothes and having short hair by no means makes you mature.
I'm sure I would be labelled as immature because I have long hair and a beard. But you know what? I don't care. I have employers knocking at my door all the time -- and they don't seem to care either. If a company is more caught up on my appearance than my qualifications, then they've got their priorities mixed up.
What if a company turns down a good coder because he has visible tattoos? Is this 'mature' management? I don't think so.
Re:No biggie (Score:2, Interesting)
This is all broad ideas in psychology, and they're fairly accurate. Of course you can't apply it to EVERYONE but most people would be a dead ringer for what I described.
Nipple rings on females can be a problem... (Score:5, Interesting)
It really lowered the productivity of some of my coworkers and most of them could not look her in the eye when they talked to her.
It was no problem for me; I've been hanging around with pierced S&M folks since the early 80s! Been there. Done that.
"Body Modification" Less Acceptable than Before (Score:3, Interesting)
And accepting that, you ought to realize that its growing less acceptable as IT becomes more and more a part of the corporate environment. Whereas eccentricities such as long hair, unkempt beards, and poor dress (if not outright violations of corporate dresscodes) were tolerated in order to get the talent, the geek chique no longer carries the credibility it used to. Corporate executives are looking for a more professional breed of IT managers and specialists who are more buttoned down and presentable.
Is it a hindrance? Well that depends on where your interests lie. If you're a corporate survivor looking to climb the ladder (or at least cling desperately to your rung), you're going to have to accept that that piercing in your septum which is getting green around the hole is going to factor in when you're up for review. However, if you're in IT as a lifestyle, because you love the soft flicker of hard drive access LED's, and are soothed by the gentle hum of RAID arrays accented by the mellow chatter of heads seeking to the right track, then you'll also pass off the pay and respect for a nice stuffy backroom where you'll languish at the bottom of IT payscales for eternity. Or, go and work for a more open company that is more concerned with the capabilities of its people than with how well they'd fare in a police line-up of tattood purse-snatching thugs.
Hypocracy in Diversity (Score:4, Interesting)
Shaving your facial hair isn't a matter of maturity it's a matter of culture. Many cultures (Amish, Sikhs, and more) have rules dictating this. I fail to see how the body mod scene fails to qualify as a distinct culture, yet people enjoy discriminating against them and calling them names despite having met maybe 2 of said people and making a judgement call in the first 5 minutes of having met them. Personally, I have no tattoos or piercings but I don't have any disrespect for those who do.
Business is about making money, not wearing long pants and a tie.
As a company owner... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:3, Interesting)
If that's how you're valued, work somewhere else. If that's the only place you can work, gain more value.
Not to say that anywhere that kicks you out for green hair, etc, is wrongfully discriminatory. Really, the whole thing depends on your job, amount and types of outside interaction, and knowing beforehand, either explicitly or "feeling it out", what the reaction will be. That's just respectful.
*HAIR* is still an issue. (Score:4, Interesting)
I've had job issues based on my hair alone. The most recent was when the little cocksucker (sorry, I don't have enough middle fingers for my former employer.) that became my boss who started calling me "Jesus" and having one of his lackeys follow suit. Yes, because I wasn't showing up to work with polo shirts & boat shoes, I became the one to poke fun at. (These people were all hired well after I was.)
So if you're worried about piercings causing you problems, the answer is "yes, they'll cause problems. So will the tattoos."
Dress codes? (Score:3, Interesting)
Aw, that's a bummer. Back when I worked at AT&T, the policy was basically "please wear clothes." It was distracting to work there because of all the hot chicks that were dressed up like they were going to the dance clubs after work. Tight clothes, bare midriffs, thongs showing.. holy cow, I never thought that life at the phone company could be so wonderful.
That job would have been great if it wasn't for the fucking customers.
It makes all the difference for me... (Score:3, Interesting)
I would certainly take a job for $30,000 less a year than I make if they allowed me to dye my hair whatever color I want, and have visible piercings and tattoos.
For me, I think a suit is necessary for gentlemen in an office at all times. Beyond a suit, what an employee wears is none of the employers business so long as they're not vulgar. (Obviously a tattoo on the forehead that says, "Fuck off!" would not be work appropriate.)
For some people, tattoos and piercings are just a phase. But for many, many more, it's a reconnection with the divine. It's a rite of passage. It's a sacred, spiritual experience.
To deny that right to people is not only discriminatory, it's morally wrong. Work really is "just a job". You're there 40 hours a week.
Why should your employer own your body, especially when when you aren't even working 128 hours each week?
The statistics say it all:
A 2002 Mayo Clinic survey of university undergraduate students found more than half had some type of body piercing, and 23 percent had one to three tattoos.
With nearly one in four having a tattoo, I don't think that the current trend of discrimination will last through my lifetime. Thank God. It's about time the Victorian-era concepts of an employer owning your ass end, for all eternity.
I'd rather die, than be a slave.
Re:My thoughts (Score:4, Interesting)
Having the name of your wife/kids/football team (or something of similar significance) tattooed on your arm, I'd consider quite reasonable and not count that as a sign of poor judgement.
followed later by...
However, this would not be the case for anyone who I observed who had something overtly tasteless like
So, a sporting team is fine and a cartoon is not for what reason? Don't get me wrong, yeah, I agree that a football team could have a special significance if you're on the fucking team but don't be one of these dolts who hands me this shit that because they were born in Buttfuck Egypt they need to worship the Buttfuck Egypt football club and anyone else from Buttfuck Egypt who don't kiss the ass of someone on the Buttfuck Egypt team is nothing but a sack of shit.
Being the fan of a bunch of men running a leather ball over a pasture is no more advanced than watching cartoons with a similure fandom.
I'll never understand that about sports fans, they watch some jackasses on a field playing a game and think it's a fine persuit to remember stats and discuss gameplay like they're coaches but if someone goes out and does something like playing video games or treating fixing the lawn mower like an engineering project then suddenly you're a geek? WTF is wrong with people?
If it sounds like a heavy handed rant, I'm sorry. It just seems something is mighty wrong with this "logic" and surprising that it came up on someplace like slashdot. But than again, a lot of illogic goes on around here.
Re:No biggie (Score:3, Interesting)
-calyxa
Re:It's up to the clients, really (Score:2, Interesting)
Body modification at EA (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm hoping this is the case in other parts of the games industry too because I've been toying with the idea of getting some more body modifications :) (Right now I just have my ears and navel pierced. Quite boring, I'm afraid.)
Also, on the same topic, I've also been considering getting my breasts enlarged but I'm not sure whether that kind of thing would be held against me (or count in my favour in a way that I might not like). Any idea how that kind of modification is viewed in the industry? If an employer noticed/found out, would he/she be likely to think "Wow, what a brainless slut. Why the hell should we hire her as a programmer?", or is it the kind of thing that's just accepted and ignored?
Re:good choices vs bad choices (Score:2, Interesting)
A good (rational) decision is where you wind up with more or equal utility than you started with.
So, if the person likes having that body art, piercing, or whatever else, than it was a good decision.
(In any case, if you buy a piece of artwork, you lose the money and thus restrict your choices-- you can now only hang, hide, or sell the art, as opposed to buying lots of different random things. Does that mean that no one should ever buy art, simply because it doesn't give you more choices?)
Re:"Decent human being" (Score:2, Interesting)
Largely irrelevant: In many of those cultures, it is considered indecent for women to work in the first place.
Re:Dress like daddy (Score:3, Interesting)
At least we can agree on this.
The reason to get tattoos and body piercings is to fit in with a crowd, plain and simple.
That's funny. I thought I got tattoos because I liked the way they looked, and the things that they remind me of when I see them.
I'm glad I have people like you around to reveal the truth about my wanting to fit in with the terribly popular "science dorks who like Legacy of Kain and grew up reading William Gibson" crew.
Do you want to fit in with the crowd that looks like it is going somewhere, or do you want to fit in with the crowd that looks like it is strung out on dope. Sure, it's possible, even probable in your case, that you simply *dress* like a dope fiend without being one.
Have you ever met an actual "dope fiend"? They look like all kinds of people, including the ones who wear suits and ties*.
On the other hand, most of the people I know who dress nicely all the time aren't going anywhere at all. They're stuck in essentially the same position they've either been in or will be in for twenty years.
*I wear a suit and a tie half of the time too. I like the contrast with my bright green hair, and it's fun to outdress everyone except the CIO. But I think you know what I mean.
And while it's possible that the guy who dresses like a Bible Salesman is really some sort of a hideous menace to society chances are in your favor that he is not.
Uh huh. Have you ever looked at pictures of serial killers? They don't generally have purple hair and piercings.
How you present yourself to the world says a lot about what sort of person you are.
You've said this, but you don't understand its full implications. You assume that when someone gets tattooed, or pierced, or dyes their hair, they are trying to "look like an individual," or something equally superficial and useless for gauging who they are. You are throwing away potentially valuable information that's sitting right in front of your eyes.
But whatever, I'm tired of arguing with people about why this line of thinking is stupid. If someone has such a problem with my vaguely odd appearance that they can't deal with it, I can easily find someone else to benefit from my skills.
Re:Body modification at EA (Score:2, Interesting)
I imagine that if you apply to a games company (apart from maybe EA canada), the first thing engineering (as opposed to HR) would say would be "wow, that's the first female who's ever applied for a programming position" and give you an automatic interview. That was my experience anyway (the female in question was no longer at the address on the CV though, so that interview never took place).
I have heard rumours about female games programmers (e.g. seen their names in comment blocks in conversion projects) but not had sufficient experience with them (i.e. actually met any) to say whether modification would help or hinder your path. Perhaps you could ask his female colleagues?
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:3, Interesting)
I got it to ensure to myself that I would never be hired by any company that would sooner look at my skin than look at my capabilities. That was the point, the entire reason that I got the tattoo: so that I would never accidentally wind up working for someone like you.
It has served me well.
Re:The new repressed minority: Christians (Score:3, Interesting)
This is not what overpopulation means. It relates to agriculture, and being able to feed the population at a sustainable and reasonable cost to the environment.
We are not overpopulated. Look around you, look at the statistics.
Then think of it this way. We are over-agricultured, or at the very least, totally mis-managing our natural resources.
Yes, we could theoretically sustain a much larger population if humanity decided to get their act together and all submit to one all-powerful government who would responsibly divvy up all the land, reloacte CITIES that are sitting on the MOST FERTILE LAND (good plan for self-eradication - let's concrete all over our most productive soil! Yay!), enforce proper farming practices, shut down the utterly devastating fishing practices we have in many places that are doing irreversable damage to fish stocks, so on and so forth, don't even get me started on the pollution aspect.
But it isn't going to happen. We will rape and pillage, contaminate and destroy our natural resources at an outragous rate, thousands of times faster than it needs to be - because humans are inefficient, greedy, and do not consider the future until it bites them in the arse.
We have ever shrinking farmable land in many continents, including China and Australia (I come from a farming family forced off the land that was once very productive 50 years ago). Salinity is a massive problem in Australia. In Victoria, there's the Pyramid Salt Scheme [abc.net.au] that - and this is very scary - has taken a hopeless salinity situation where a once productive farming land existed - and turned it into a profitable salt mine.
Our current trends are not sustainable. I don't see us changing our trends, do you? It's a simple matter of population × average per unit cost > resources.
Our current rate of destruction per capita to the enviornment would indicate that unless we can all reduce our per capita destruction, then the only way we will have sustainable population is to reduce that population.
As you seem to imply, perhaps per capit destruction WILL decrease naturally, if the 1st world countries with their negative population growth (Australia is still positive, btw) allow a shift of control of natural resources to what is at this point in time the more "efficient" 3rd world nations.
There's survival of the human race, and then there's survival of the earth's eco-systems and environment. I don't believe a solution exists to save both in a reasonable way that both sides would like.
Re:No biggie (Score:3, Interesting)
I kinda wish I didn't remove it, but ... I did. I'm itching to get a new tattoo tho, and this one might not be on my upper arm.
Re:No biggie (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Well said! (Score:2, Interesting)
This thread is a good example of common animal behavoir, which shouldn't be surprising since humans are just primates. I'm just surprised nobody else seems to get this:
Nonconforming animals in social groups are often persecuted, shunned, even killed by fellow "normal" members. It seems to be an instinctive behavior related to eliminating disease or variation from entering the genetic pool. That is, large variations in appearance (a bird painted the "wrong" color, in the calssic example) are pushed out and killed.
Seems like humans try to do much the same thing, in those moments of "primal decisions" like when hiring an employee, or choosing a mate, or chatting on Slashdot... Course, it also means that diversity is reduced, which when taken to extremes, can lead to monoculture and accumulated genetic errors and all sorts of problems.
Just something to consider.
Re:Dress like daddy (Score:3, Interesting)
Scene: Standing outside the Soil goth nightclub in San Diego, '93. Everyone, and I mean everyone in line is wearing a black shirt, black jeans or skirt, and black boots. They are universally wearing white makeup and have black or crimson hair. Except me. I'm wearing blue jeans, brown Doc Martens, and a green polo shirt, and I have short blonde hair and no makeup.
I start trying to chat up the cute goth chick ahead of me (which was the whole reason for being there in the first place), but she cuts me off with "find someone else, you conformist." It never occurred to her that I was, quite literally, the only person there that didn't look exactly like everyone else.
I was also there for the music and poetry readings. Ironically, many people there were far more judgemental of me than I even thought of being toward anyone else there. A few people caught that, though, and enjoyed the novelty of hanging out with the lone prep in their lair.
Re:Dress like daddy (Score:3, Interesting)
I can respect that. Heck, I nearly got a tattoo myself at one point. It's a powerful commitment feeling so strongly about something that you want to have it painted on your skin. I get that.
The problem is that there is a stigma attached because there is such a high correlation in the U.S. between people that show visible ink and the criminal element. In a perfect world people wouldn't need to pre-judge because trusting people wouldn't be inherently dangerous, but our world isn't perfect by a long shot.
In your particular case you are essentially breaking this stigma by building a solid reputation before showing ink. IMO that's a sensible compromise for someone that feels strongly about tattoos. There aren't very many people that feel so strongly about tattoos that they would change their opinion about someone's personality that they already knew and trusted, and the ones that would probably are not worth working for long term anyhow.
I realize that not everyone that gets a tattoo is doing it so that they can fit in with some kind of crowd. There are lots of very personal reasons for painting the body. The problem, like usual, is that the dorks spoil it for everyone. If criminals and other social misfits didn't tattoo themselves to mark themselves as part of a group then the stigma behind tattoos would go away. Unfortunately I don't see that happening.
Besides, I am married now and I don't think that my wife would appreciate me getting ink :).
Re:Dress like daddy (Score:2, Interesting)
Sadly enough, its too true. I work for a city hospital in the IT field. I have subdermal implants, scarifications, large stretched piercings...etc etc. All of these modifications are rather "hardcore mods" yet they are not visible. I have these modifications for myself and myself only. A lot of my closest friends are tattoo artists and piercers AND i work for a large suspension team and i used to be a piercer for four years. Anyway, going to tattoo conventions, meeting other modified people, visiting tattoo shops....some of them (them as in "modified" people) look at me like i have no idea what im doing. Like i walked in to the wrong room. Yet when someone with green hair and visible tattoos walks in.....they get 50 cool points as opposed to me getting none.
I love the look on their faces when they realize how involved i actually am in this modification community though.
But whatever, i'll just go back to work at my well paying job and continue to live my life as i see fit.....as everyone else should.