After College, What Type of Jobs Should One Seek? 628
Sushant Bhatia asks: "I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree, and I'm on the prowl for jobs. However, there are so many types out there it's just overwhelming for someone who's never had to go through the job-hunting process before. So, what should I do? Should I go for a full-time, contract, half-time, or something else? Also, what kind of position should a person with a Master's in Computer Science be looking for (other than dish washer)? I've been looking at senior software developer positions, but is that too high up the ladder for someone 'fresh' to cope with? My current manager (research lab) says that 'You should always find a job that is above your skill level so that you can learn and be challenged.' I think he's right, but is that something Slashdot readers agree with? What was your job coming out of university?"
Re:Something's Wrong Here (Score:3, Interesting)
in terms of IT people giving you advice, Steve Jobs gave a commencement speech at Stanford this past week. I had a very high opinion of Jobs before this, but after reading the text here I think he's in exalted territory. Maybe something he says might be able to help you.
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2005/june15/ jobs-061505.html [stanford.edu]:
'You've got to find what you love,' Jobs says
This is the text of the Commencement address by Steve Jobs, CEO of Apple Computer and of Pixar Animation Studios, delivered on June 12, 2005.
I am honored to be with you today at your commencement from one of the finest universities in the world. I never graduated from college. Truth be told, this is the closest I've ever gotten to a college graduation. Today I want to tell you three stories from my life. That's it. No big deal. Just three stories.
The first story is about connecting the dots.
I dropped out of Reed College after the first 6 months, but then stayed around as a drop-in for another 18 months or so before I really quit. So why did I drop out?
It started before I was born. My biological mother was a young, unwed college graduate student, and she decided to put me up for adoption. She felt very strongly that I should be adopted by college graduates, so everything was all set for me to be adopted at birth by a lawyer and his wife. Except that when I popped out they decided at the last minute that they really wanted a girl. So my parents, who were on a waiting list, got a call in the middle of the night asking: "We have an unexpected baby boy; do you want him?" They said: "Of course." My biological mother later found out that my mother had never graduated from college and that my father had never graduated from high school. She refused to sign the final adoption papers. She only relented a few months later when my parents promised that I would someday go to college.
And 17 years later I did go to college. But I naively chose a college that was almost as expensive as Stanford, and all of my working-class parents' savings were being spent on my college tuition. After six months, I couldn't see the value in it. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life and no idea how college was going to help me figure it out. And here I was spending all of the money my parents had saved their entire life. So I decided to drop out and trust that it would all work out OK. It was pretty scary at the time, but looking back it was one of the best decisions I ever made. The minute I dropped out I could stop taking the required classes that didn't interest me, and begin dropping in on the ones that looked interesting.
It wasn't all romantic. I didn't have a dorm room, so I slept on the floor in friends' rooms, I returned coke bottles for the 5 deposits to buy food with, and I would walk the 7 miles across town every Sunday night to get one good meal a week at the Hare Krishna temple. I loved it. And much of what I stumbled into by following my curiosity and intuition turned out to be priceless later on. Let me give you one example:
Reed College at that time offered perhaps the best calligraphy instruction in the country. Throughout the campus every poster, every label on every drawer, was beautifully hand calligraphed. Because I had dropped out and didn't have to take the normal classes, I decided to take a calligraphy class to learn how to do this. I learned about serif and san serif typefaces, about varying the amount of space between different letter combinations, about what makes great typography great. It was beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in a way that science can't capture, and I found it fascinating.
None of this had even a hope of any practical application in my life. But ten years later, when we were designing the first Macintosh computer, it all came back to me. And we designed it all into the Mac. It was t
Re:Why enter the real world? (Score:5, Interesting)
So my personal advice is to try and do what you like and not get disappointed over being rejected. And I think people in masses tend to be pessimists.. so take what they (slashdot) say witha grain of salt.
Re:Something's Wrong Here (Score:3, Interesting)
If today is the last day of my life, would my plans change?
AND
If I live another 65 years, will I regret anything included in my plans today?
Between the 2, you get a balance that keeps you from wasting the few years you actually do have, but without the reckless disregard for your future, should you have one (and statistically you will).
The first question keeps you from reaching old age, saying "I wish I had . .
Big company first (Score:3, Interesting)
For instance: The coder who wouldn't check-in for five weeks at a time, and then say their hard drive crashed. When the source control admin would go to reconstruct their work, they found there had only been 10 lines of code completed during that period. After this happened three times running, the company wised up and fired his ass.
Then there's the guy we called "PhD" -- which stood for "personal hygiene deficit". A good example of why some people shouldn't eat at their desks.
At a large bank in Charlotte, there was the eternal project -- every time a new Senior Vice President got hired, the project got reincarnated as his personal vision of how the code should work. I expect they still haven't delivered anything, 12 years later.
Chip H.
Re:Be agressive. (Score:5, Interesting)
No. I mean no. For the love of God, No! Have you lost your bloody mind?! NO!
Don't. Ever. Work. For. Free. You might as well wear a sandwich board that reads "My time is worthless and I'm so naive that I believe an idea put forth by suits looking to recruit cheap, easily-abused labor. I'm beyond desperate, so please, pay me some lowball chump change."
Take a lesson from the marketers. People honestly believe that a thing is worth what you paid for it. If you ever work for someone for free, you'll never convince them to pay top dollar for your services.
You wouldn't believe how much my life has improved since I learned to look them right in the ye without blinking and say "You're right. I compete on quality, not price. To be honest, these are my prices if I design and implement. If I have to go through the headache of fixing someone else's mistakes, I charge a 20% premium."
You'd be amazed at how that one little statement/attitude improves your world. You never have to deal with those neurotic not-worth-the-trouble PITA clients, and the rest come to the job with a "he's expensive, he must know what he's doing" mentality.
So long as you can deliver the goods, it's a far more satisfying way to run your business.
Re:Something's Wrong Here (Score:5, Interesting)
"So when a worshipping blogger posts a product rumor I don't like, I sue him. When a book gets written I don't appreciate, I have it banned from stores. And why do I do this? Because a fawning media and corrupt power structure let me get away with it. Because when I stand up here and spout revisionist treacle about fonts and calligraphy and my role in being first with the Macintosh, people like you believe it. And it gets reported and reprinted without challenge."
"So when I look in the mirror each morning and think about whether it's my last day on earth, I also say to myself, "Just in case it isn't, I better make sure I take care of No. 1." And I guess the lesson to you as you make your way through life is, Don't cross me, or I'll crush you. And nobody will be around to stick up for you while I do it. They'll all be too busy applauding my bogus life lessons while thinking, "What a guy!""
-- Seattle Times Columnist Paul Andrews re-writes Steve Jobs' Stanford commencement speech
Re:Master's in Computer Science, eh? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Senior?? (Score:3, Interesting)
>I hope you don't get a "senior" level position.
The worst thing about that would be, moving into a senior position that the people below you didn't get promoted to.
Getting the job will be a lot easier than getting their respect.
Management has a whole different dynamic. People won't resent you for getting hired as a manager, but they sure will, if you fill some "senior" developer opening that the company didn't fill from the current pool.
You really don't want to be in a workplace where your whole team resents you because you got hired on your credentials where they did not get promoted on their experience.
Re:Sit over here, sonny. (Score:2, Interesting)
that's what I did last year when I graduated. Unfortunetly its kinda very hard to get out of the helpdesk roadmap. It offers decent money as you go up and you can go up a rank every 4-9month.
Last year the market was really bad. So I joined in a Helpdesk as a temp job. But now I realise that it is very hard to get back on track.
Everytime that a jr. job in a fied that review my resume (posted last year) offer me less money that my current sr. job in the helpdesk.
The balance shift between easy money and challenging work for less money. SDLC (Software Delelopment Life Cycle) Supports the theory. Maintenence is the most expensive/lucrative segment of it.
So its really up to you. Do you want the money (not much but steady) or do you want the pride of creating new stuff (small burst of large pile of money).
Actually I am still debating my self. I really do want to go on the fun side.. Development.
Also on the side note. If you go on the Helpdesk side try to start a small biz and get a few contract from time to time to keep your skill sharp. Because from experience, If i just did helpdesk all along well i wouldn't know how to program anymore.
Re:Master's in Computer Science, eh? (Score:5, Interesting)
So I've read....
But, let me fill you in on the reality.
Christmas eve a few years back. I needed a Jeep Wrangler Power Wheels last minute. I'd heard of the legendary Wal-Mart inventory management system, so I figure a phone call and all would be well.
So, I called the closest store, and they said they didn't have any left (big surprise on Christmas eve). But never fear, the next closest store has 3 in stock.
So, I truck on over there only to find that not only do they have none, but they haven't seen any for a week--or so said the manager of the department. In disbelief, I combed the aisles looking for the three they supposedly in stock. I gave up after 20 minutes of wandering the garden section (Which is where they keep the excess stock of that stuff).
On my way home, I drove passed the Wal-Mart that I had originally called and figured I'd stop in to look at their power wheels selection to see what they had left in Silverados and what not, as being the newest Super Wal-Mart in my area, they had the biggest selection. When I walked in, there it was sitting in the middle of the aisle, a Jeep Wrangler Power Wheels.
An employee asked me if I was finding everything ok, so I asked them why I was told that they had none in stock when this was sitting right here in plain view.
He looked at the box, and looked at me and said, "well, this here was supposed to have been delivered to another store. But I guess the driver forgot to drop it there, so it ended up here, 'cuz he didn't want to return to the dock with it in his truck still. We're the last store on his route so that happens all the time."
So, there you have it. The system might be designed to work a certain way, but it's only as strong as the people involved.
Very simple. (Score:4, Interesting)
Make yourself up some business cards, and have at it! Starting a business is pretty easy, and if you work hard at it one can be a lot more successful than simply working for someone else.
Get an HSA (health savings account) with a small business association, and start a Roth IRA immediately.
In an interview in Inc. 500 a few years back, many hiring managers said that prior ownership of a tech business (even if it failed miserably) immediately put someone at the top of the list for a lead technical position or management.
Good luck!
Follow your heart and pursue your dreams. (Score:3, Interesting)
After I finished in college, I became a musician - something I always wanted to do. This evolved into running a recording studio. I also worked in the theatre - because I always wanted to act too! The skills I learned in these professions have stood me well to this day. About 5 years out of college, I got my first "conventional" job.
Now, in my early forties, my career is where I want it to be. I'm still trying new things but staying within the ball park of my qualifications and experience.
Some of my peer group who left school and immersed themselves immediately and deeply into their career paths are now hitting their mid-life crises with varying consequences.
So, find a comfortable place along the spectrum which has career/salary/prospects at one end and reckless abandon at the other.
Good luck to you and remember - don't rely on the advice of strangers...
Liberal Arts degrees (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, yes. A Liberal Arts degree is horrible. You'll never get a job with one, you'll never get anywhere. However, in my group of college friends, only one of the six of us obtained a CS degree, another a biology degree, and the remaining four obtained degrees in Archeology, Political Science + Economics, International Relations, and Business. Fifteen years later three of us work in the computer industry (in a technical capacity, not as marketers), one is a doctor, one runs a construction business, and one is a real estate agent. None of us has ever beeen involuntarily out of work for more than a month or two.
Your mileage may of course vary, but the idea that a Liberal Arts degree instantly leads to a job at the Golden Arches is a bit overdone in my opinion.
Re:CS != IT (Score:3, Interesting)
I do have a Computer Science degree, and that's actually what I do. I enjoy the troubleshooting and breadth of experience that you can get fixing machines. No two problems are exactly the same and it's fun to be challenged (and there's no point in being a snob about it).
In actuality, I'm the "computer guy" for a small business and keep everything running. I do networking, hardware, and software (don't write too much code, but do enough little thinks to keep it interesting). I also do the IT roadmap and make many of the business decisions related to IT. A nice little trade off for not being a ComSci bigot.
I think that the most important thing to do is to do something that you enjoy. I've found that I enjoy what I do (so much so that I do some of the same thing after hours - a "small business" is a hobby that pays :) ) - as presumably you enjoy doing what you do.
Re:Why enter the real world? (Score:2, Interesting)
Keep an eye on the economy. Remember, it wasn't that long ago we had 9-11. Our economy took a plunge but is most definitely on the way back up. While those who have been talking about the difficulty of getting a job weren't wrong a couple years ago, their year(s) old experience isn't necessarily relevant to the market today.
Finding a good job is always a difficult thing to do, even in a good economy. But, you should always do your own research and come to your own conclusion about what you should and should not do. While slasdot is a good place to get some opinions, I would be looking in other areas for hard facts. Check out the stock market. Who's stocks are showing a long-term rising trend? Who's arent? Check out job postings, ask around about benefits. As long as there are computers, there will be work for programmers.
Also, I do agree with the majority here in that you should not be looking for a position too high on the food chain. Even with a masters, you are still going to be "entry-level" unless you have at least a year of full-time experience. By full time, I do not mean 40 hour weeks. Even two years of 20 hour weeks will be sufficient.
In short, use every resource available to you to find wether or not you should continue in school or find a job. Once that decision is made, again use every resource to find the job that you want. Just be realistic about your goals. If you aim too high, you will almost certainly be shot down. Aim too low and you will be seen as over-qualified and wont be hired either (oh he wants to use us as a stepping stone for a few months but we want someone to stay for a few years.)
Good luck!
Re:Master's in Computer Science, eh? (Score:3, Interesting)
When I graduated in 2004 I was recruited by a Canadian celluar company into their IT department. For me I was hired into the operations side so sysadmin and tech support kind of work. Along with me various people from UofT and Waterloo were hired into the development side of IT. From talking with the people hired as developers I found out that during the interviews no one was interested in their knowledge of basic CS theories. Sure they asked about QA and software engineer questions. They also asked very hard questions about SQL. But there were nothing about O(n) or anything like that in the exam given during the interview.
For this company it's not suprising as is it all about data in from Oracle and then data out to web applications. In almost all cases they are dealing with O(n) complexity. All the hardwork for sorting etc are done already by Oracle inside their DB.
It's all part of the trend in computing. When PCs ran DOS people had to know how to program at quite low levels. You want a GUI? You had to built some sort of a GUI. Then came windows and GUIs were a matter of programming to an API. Of course then most people used C or C++ which needed you to do some sort of memory managment. Then came JAVA which removed even the need to do memory managment.
I am generalizing a bit but the point is that successive generation of technology made creating applications more simple. Add to that the fact that there are more and more software houses developing turn key solution for what used to be custom applications. And you have on one hand a reduction of skills required of developers. On the other hand a reduction of number of jobs because these software houses can market their wares world wide making increasing competition and reducing the number of firms making software. In turn this means there are fewer programming jobs needing people with lower skill levels.
For me finding this out was pretty much the last straw. The last thing I want was to be a replacable cog. So I found a job doing hardware work instead. I feel a little more secure as they still haven't managed to make hardware/firmware development something anyone can do. My advice to anyone about to enter University is: Pick a subject that deals in the physical world. Software's too easily virtualized into simplicity.
Re:Master's in Computer Science, eh? (Score:2, Interesting)
Of course, I work at an atypical Wal-Mart. I live in State College, PA and most of those who are worth anything are either still Penn State students or recently graduated (like me). Finding a job isn't the easiest thing, and while it's not mentally challenging or highly regarded, being employed at Wal-Mart does involve more than most people think. I'm tired when I come home from work, just like anyone else, and while I'll take people looking down on where I work, I won't allow people to not acknowledge the fact that there are many smart, hard working, nice people working for Wal-Mart. I dislike it as much as the next guy, but there's a reason Wal-Mart is the behemoth it is.