What Ancient Tech Do You Do? 308
neonfrog asks: "Before silicon, before electricity even, what the heck did those of us with geek brains do? Our brains have not evolved appreciably in half an eon (at least mine hasn't, but I may be descended from turtles). What would today's programmers have been doing centuries before the invention of the keyboard? What would an electrical engineer be doing a millennia or three before the concept of resistors and capacitors? What piqued their curiosity? Were their skills esoteric or exotic? They can't all have been Leonardo Da Vincis or court 'magicians', right? Summer's starting and, for some, it's hobby time. I bet the Slashdot community harbors quite a few Journeyman, or even Masters. I know a lot of geeks are beer-makers (and I do so appreciate you folk ... urp!) so there's no danger of that knowledge getting lost. What other ancient tech do you indulge in and keep alive? What are some good resources?"
my hobbies (Score:5, Interesting)
Intaglio printmaking (Score:5, Interesting)
not really ancient (Score:4, Interesting)
Jim
Blacksmithing (Score:5, Interesting)
I was fortunate enough to work at an 18th century living history museum many summers, weekends, and holidays as a blacksmith. Nearly twenty years later, I am still impressed at how much can be done with steel and fire. The technology of tempering is ancient, and the same metalurgical chemistry is used everywhere today in instrument sharpening, oxidization resistiveness, and high strength/weight component design such as in an F1 racecar (when they choose to drive them).
You can set up your own blacksmith shop now for not much more than some fireclay, an old hairdryer blower, some coal fuel, an short piece of railroad track turned upside down for an anvil (always used a forged metal, never cast) and a hammer. Although if I did it these days, I would be more disciplined about wearing hearing protection.
History of the Ancient Geeks (Score:5, Interesting)
Many would perhaps be smiths; blacksmiths, armorsmiths, glassworkers, etc. All types of smithing requires an advanced knowledge of the craft, with nuances more intricate than any xfree86 config file. What makes geeks tick is not sci-fi itself, or computers themselves, it's systems. Geeks love systems. Systems of numbers, systems of logic, computer systems, pen and paper games rules systems, computer language systems. Even non-geeks like systems. Physical Sports are systems; they are self consistent rule-based constructions. Geeks are merely overly obsessed with certain systems, such as the stars, or physics, or computer languages, much like an autistic person could be obsessed with anything, but he chooses a certain something. So perhaps any intricate systematic smithing craft would appeal to the ancient geek.
What I would have been... (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd have been the peasant who starved because he was so busy trying to figure out how to get his ox to plow more field when all he had to do to survive was plant a small garden with his hands.
Good thing I'm alive today and didn't live in centuries past.
Make mead. (Score:5, Interesting)
I wanted to make my own cider, and despite my love for Cider, my new first love is Mead, and its near cousins, melomels, cysers....mmmmm
My first 1 gallon batch of mead recently hit its stride finally. Dear GAWD is that stuff good.
I swear, if you ever get a good mead, you'll never drink beer again. I'm not kidding, I'm dead serious. I have 5 gallons of strawberry melomel going right now, and another 5 gallons of some dark cider that has been going since mid-october. Both are far superior to their off-the-shelf alternatives, and these are just my first tries!
Resources?
The BrewBoard [brewboard.com]
and if you wish to take my advice on the mead specifically:
The Compleat Meadmaker by Ken Schramm [amazon.com]
That second link *is* an Amazon link, but not a referral link, so I'm not whoring.
Oh, and yes, I did spell "compleat" correctly. Took me forever to find the book the first time. Oops.
Blacksmithing (Score:3, Interesting)
1) swinging a hammer all day can give you a repetetive motion injury like using a keyboard.
2) When making complex things you have to pay attention to details and have an idea of what your working towards.
3) You can undo mistakes fairly easily, just heat it up and pound out the error.
4) There are lots of technical things to remember like metal compostions, metalworking techniques, and different ways to heat treat metals to give them different properties.
5) It's rather a skilled job compared to being a farmer, and I suppose the pay might not have been too bad.
Plus you can make your own swords and armor for D&D.
Gardening... (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes. Gardening.
Its geeky, in its own way.
Not only do you have layout, planting times, and organic methods, but there are loads of experimentation available.
Do you want to use the French-Intensive method of gardening? How about the traditional method? Blocks or rows?
This year, I'm experimenting with rooting suckers from tomato plants and seeing if the new plants are worthwhile producers. I'm also trying to plant late corn in between flowering beans. (I like to maximize my yeild from a small space.) Next year, I'm going to try interplanting lettuce and tomatoes, hoping that the tomatoes will keep the lettuce cool enough to extend the growing season. I'll also try more mulch next year, I think.
building garages (Score:2, Interesting)
I think tinkering with wood would be a great alternative to coding.
For resources, other than people, I get alot of stuff off websites experienced tradespeople put up. I have heavy guilt from never contributing the paypal 5 bucks, though. I know when I eventually get my website up about building plank wooden Dory's, I'll never get a dime as Karmic retribution.
Printmaking (Score:2, Interesting)
I've just begun doing some printmaking at home. Doing linocuts [wikipedia.org] and printing them by hand on paper. Just looking up information, I found Escher did this as well [mcescher.com]. Certainly an artistic figure many geek-types have taken to.
It's not difficult or expensive to do (all you need is the linoleum [misterart.com], some blades [misterart.com], a brayer and ink), but I find that many traits good coders have apply well to it (like everything, right? Also think design/typography). I find it a satisfying after a day of programming.
Bee Keeping (Score:3, Interesting)
Boxes with cards, become supers with frames.
It is in some ways the an early nano-tech with thousands of simple machines carrying out tasks that create something much larger than any of them will understand.
There are even bugs like Varroa Destructor that can make your hive crash.
There is even over clocking, some people build hives with two queens (colonies of bees) in the same box, or would that be multi-processing.
It is a bit like the free software community there is more to be gained by sharing idea with other bee keepers than can ever be gained by keeping ideas to your self.
Well it is fun and you get sweet stuff to share with people.
Sailing (Score:3, Interesting)
accounting and moneylending (Score:2, Interesting)
I've done duty occasionally as an accountant/treasurer for various organizations, as well as property manager/stockist for several businesses. Bean counters have always been in demand.
I've done a fair trade on e-bay selling painted tabletop miniatures (toy soldiers). I'm pretty sure working full time I could have gotten on as an artisan - pottery decoration? illuminator?
Last but not least, I can carry a tune on about four or five woodwinds (sax, flute, recorder, tin whistle, little bit of clarinet). I'm not sure if I could've made it as an itinerant musician (maybe associated with a theater troupe), but it almost certainly would've appealed more than scratch farming.
All taken together, I'd bet on bean counter, though maybe travelling merchant..
Geeks have always been around (Score:5, Interesting)
There's been a long geek tradition with making automats and mechanical toys, and funny enough the Japanese in the Edo period (1600 onwards) were really good at that stuff, because "inventions" were not allowed in that era. The feudal lords were afraid "inventions" could be used against them, so only fun automats ("karakuri ningyo" etc.) were considered harmless enough, that people were allowed to "invent" if it was for mechanical toys and automats. This started a real boom of the production of ever more amazing geek gadgets.
...And Farming (Score:3, Interesting)
There is no end to the invention you can pour into growing plants and taking care of animals.
Being not very far descended from farmers, I have to say that agriculture of any kind is a great target for creativity. And a couple of centuries ago, a heck of a lot of the world's population was subsistence farming.
You have to plan for the seasons, account for risks (weather, sickness), do more with less effort, take care of your tools and your land, preserve foods, try to maintain nutrition through a long winter. Some of it you can figure out on your own, and some of it you really need to learn from those who have gone before you ...
... But I digress. Farming rewards intelligence and hard work. And it punishes stupidity and sloth with just about the stiffest penalties I can think of -- starvation of not just yourself, but your family as well. Darwin's hand at work, shaping the geeks of today over millenia past.
Pillars of the Earth (Score:2, Interesting)
If you think you life is tough now, this book will open your eyes on how hard life used to be the past few thousand years.
How to find water the ancient Roman way: (Score:5, Interesting)
One of the first things a Roman engineer would do on any building site is locate a spring to supply him with water. In order to do this, the engineer would get up before sunrise and lie down on the top of a hill, facing downhill. As the sun rose, tendrils of mist would appear in certain places on the ground. The engineer would note their location, and he would dig in those spots to produce a water supply.
The reason this works? The mist appears where the water table is closer to the surface. By digging, you go below the water table, and the hole will naturally fill up with water over time. This water can be filtered and used.
Isn't that neat?
Making my own joghurt (Score:3, Interesting)
Basicaly it's as simple as making your own kids but less fun.
Lots of stuff (Score:2, Interesting)
All very true (Score:5, Interesting)
These people, in Renessance times, were typically sponsored by rich patrons, who took care of the mundane needs whilst they got on with inventing or whatever. It made for a society that evolved culturally and technologically faster than anything that had preceeded it.
Geeks would likely also have been explorers - it is very likely that St. Brenden "The Navigator" (who sailed from Ireland to Newfoundland in about 600 AD in a leather dinghy) was a geek at heart. There was a lot to discover, and required a mind agile at problem-solving along with fantastic patience, as they would be doing a great deal of nothing much.
You find hints of geekdom in gnostic and hellenistic thought and religion, suggesting early geeks may have been heavy into religion. Again, no great surprise - geeks love answering things, and for a long time, those were the best answers anyone could devise.
Cave painters may well have been geeks, too. One set of cave paintings in England would have been a few hundred feet under an ice sheet at the time they were painted. Someone shimmied down an ice crevice for the sole purpose of dawbing animals that couldn't possibly have existed there on the walls. That guy was NOT normal.
Brewers, throughout history, have experimented with different sources of sugars, flavours, etc. Since wild yeast can take many forms, and since many ingredients would have been expensive, they would undoubtably have researched methods of sustaining the active ingredient in much the same way that modern kids brew their own "ginger beer plants" by splitting bottles and topping up with fresh ingredients to keep the yeast alive.
The vertical loom and tablet weaving, both parts of Norse tradition, involved some highly complex thought and engineering on the part of their inventers and practicioners. Even the Viking longships - which would slide up beaches and could then be used to carry cargo from raids by reversing the oars - show considerable evidence of highly creative thought.
I think it safe to say that geeks throughout history have been much as they are today, excpet maybe more influential, as many of the trades I've mentioned have had considerable status and power in their times.
Bowmaking and fletching (Score:3, Interesting)
It's amazing how effective a recurve bow with 40lbs strain is in the right hands....
Re:Make mead. (Score:3, Interesting)
I made it in PET bottles: when half the plastic had gone white with craze cracking from the pressure and the bottle had stretched by about one fifth it was time to drink it.
Metalcasting (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:bullshit (Score:3, Interesting)
He claims the reason that the Islamic scholars didn't add that much to what they later transferred back to Europe, was that their religion stopped research.
So this is another case that supports the grandparent's point.
Luthiery (Score:0, Interesting)
Re:How to find water the ancient Roman way: (Score:1, Interesting)
Try a diptych... (Score:3, Interesting)
Let's be realistic (Score:5, Interesting)
1) Born into violence, filth, and disease.
2) Eek out a life of scavenging or farming, paying taxes to your lord, having some children, most of whom will die before a couple years old, until:
3) war, or some other tribal/religious/cultural dispute.
4) death at 20.
This hypothetical geek from BCE 5000 or AD 1600 might have been the next Einstein, or Stephen Hawking, or anything we can imagine. But he'd never have had the time, opportunity or resources to do anything with it.
We're NOT smarter than previous humans, we just have an *unprecendented* level of peace and prosperity. We have developed a culture where people have the opportunity *not* to toil and die at an early age.
Finally, this success isn't evenly distributed, yet. A fair amount of humanity still lives the way our ancestors did centuries ago.
The real answer... (Score:3, Interesting)
Back in the day you had to do cool hacks to survive. Hackers are not the descendants of court wizards. We are descendants of farmers that when one of his tools broke he would fix it with what he had on hand or make a different tool out of it.
There's a difference between Ancient and Medieval (Score:4, Interesting)
For example, an ancient goidelic bronze-smith's life was generally short and often ended in madness due to the lack of forced ventilation technology. The arsenic and heavy metals naturally occuring in ores acculumated in the body and induced illness and psychosis. Consequently the smiths were often unable to have normal children; so of course fathers did not want their daughters to marry smiths. A smith who wished to marry might have to steal or buy a bride.
The inherited, rigidly defined social and occupational classes you're talking about are a feature of medieval and post-medieval (c.g. Renaissance and Modern) culture, and are very rare in truly ancient times. In ancient times fostering and apprenticeships were more the norm, and typically a smith chose his apprentices or fosterlings based on aptitude and ability.
There are other similar societies, too. (Score:2, Interesting)
Several of those listed above do "live steel" combat, with varying levels of realism and danger. SCA does stickfighting and fencing. Dagohir & its offshoots do padded sticks, Markland does live steel, padded sticks, and fencing.
All require equipment which is easier (and more fun) to make than to purchase... lots of geeks are into it more for the craftsmanship than for the adrenaline rush.
Re:WRT naturalistically formed universe (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course not. The universe was obviously created 5000 some years ago in a 7 day even in which the creator rested.
Complex indeed. I want to discover WHY and literally become a god myself.
---2. The accuracy of the biblical record
Ok, it makes it a good history, AS long as you can get the unassaulted "translations". Compare translations as "All your base are belong to us". Whats the quality, and how in the heck do you check?
3. The evidence of the changed lives of the people who knew Jesus personally
You personally know any of them? WHat evidence there was is corrupted by transcribing those very events no sooner than 60 years after He was murdered, bad translations, or just plain loosing the transcribed events.
4. The evidence of the way that my relationship with Jesus Christ has changed my life.
My relationship with myself has changed my life. Yes, I was a Catholic, and still believe in basic ideas.... I do not reject that a ultimate God exists, nor do I reject that Jesus did not live. I also believe that this God is not what people normally think, as in the holy angels flying and all that crap. If God exists, our univerrse exists as a particle in his body, or the way we exist outside of a computer emulating (in softwre) a device.
I abide with the basic idea that we all hold the truth what we are, how to unleash that truth, and how to bring ourselves to godlike stature through eterenal death. A form of Buddho-Catholicism, if you will. I violate no commandments from the 10, and I abide by ethics that Shakyamuni and descendants have proposed that we follow.
If this God many pray to actually listens, let him consider me on what I have accomplished and who I am, and NOT who I can offload "sins" to. Anybody can say "Forgive my sins, oh Lord, Jesus Christ" but whoever cannot conqueror problems of conscinousness mean nothing.
---I agree with you, and I think that IUDs and birth control pills are not morally acceptable because they are abortifacients.
Let me ask you something from a totally different angle..
Is it ok to kill a mammal (say, a great ape)? Why or why not?
How much of a person is a "person"? If even one cell froma human is dropped, is that a lost 'life'?
And to iterate a joke used by Cleese, "is every sperm sacred"? Why/why not?
Re:Religion stifles advancement in our species (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:WRT naturalistically formed universe (Score:3, Interesting)
The God(s)/God created PI. An infinite number of non repeating digits that describe the ratio of circle to an ever more perfect degree.
Thus it could be argued that god(s)/God are really into doing things right up front.
Hence the whole Adam and Eve creation myth is bunk because it's too much of a kludge for a god who's into elegant solutions.
The big bang was an elegant solution. It was elegant because of the beauty of its simplicity.
Evolution is an elegant solution. Going and creating all kinds of specialed creatures isn't how a God who thought up PI would do things. An elegant God who can think up an infinite number just has to have the one elegant thought and the rest just works itself out.
Caveman Chemistry (Score:3, Interesting)
Projects from making charcoal, mead, and ceramics to casting metals and glass, and making plastic (making and drawing polyester fiber).
Re:Religion stifles advancement in our species (Score:3, Interesting)
Interestingly those in the "stories" you refer to did not take their belief merely because they read other "stories" but because of their own experiences with God, which, strangely is a strong force in the lives of many in the less extreme religions.
For instance, my belief in Jesus Christ is based on my own experiences in relation to the practice of the religion I study and not on account of "ooh, it must be true because of...".
An interesting thing for you to look into would be the origins of belief and not just the history of belief.
That there were pre-Christ prophecies is interesting but it was a source of faith to pre-Christ people who believed those prophecies because... because of what?
I say that my belief comes through the action of the Holy Ghost in my heart when truth is taught, but this is entirely subjective to my own life; I say that a similar action took place in all ages when truth was taught to those who would receive it.
You may decide this is rather freaky and superfluous, and a complex explaination for a bogus observation*, but if our existance pre-dates the creation and earth life; if we lived in the presence of God before our birth then it is not unusual for God to be able to speak to use through his Spirit convincingly to those who are willing to hear.
[* I'm looking for truth, not explanations.]
I only point this out so that you cn be aware that for many their religious belief is not based on some tenuous chain of reasoning but on the actual day-to-day mechanics of following what they have learned by experience to be good, and trying to learn more, yes, a sort of inner journey, but very real. This will of course sound like complete tosh to those who have no experience with it, and will be described as complete tosh by those who have rejected it (perhaps why they rejected it, who can tell?), but I'm doing it for me, not them, and I find it more real than the Millenium Dome, the UK Tax Credits Fiasco (and this government think they can run a national identity database).
I find it the most satisfying thing in my life. Not because there is a cosy "it will be all-right-for-you" type feeling but because there is a part of me that says "I know" that takes joy and confidence and love in the whole thing. It is jam today and jam tomorrow.
In short, John 7:17, John 17:3, you have to try it to know, and if you don't you won't. And yes, sometimes it takes extreme circumstances before some people try, but others will say "they just clutched at straws"; other peoples faith can never satisfy you or look reasonable to you.
For a good short discourse on the development of faith as experienced by individuals, read http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/32 [lds.org]
You will certainly find it interesting, it is the process by which faith is developed, and is more real than tenuous reasoning on imcomplete knowledge.
I'm happy to discuss this more, but you may prefer to get some Mormon [mormon.org] Missionaries in and ask them just how individuals are supposed to get a certain knowledge of God, and then try it! It's a good experiment.
Interestingly, they won't try and convince you! (Can you believe that in a religion?) They will teach you and encourage you to try what they teach if you want. You will come across things you never imagined could exist, or perhaps you will say you had forgotten a long time ago. If you think it is a trick, why not try and spot the trick?
It will be interesting anyway, and certainly a new experience, I'd say try it.
I'm not intending to get in to a long debate, I thought I would give the other view on Monty's excellent summary, and to show how two explanations of the same scene can fail to even overlap.
Sam
Re:Religion stifles advancement in our species (Score:2, Interesting)
I mention JW's and someone goes into apologist mode, I mention Joe Smith and someone links to lds resources - I have to say I preferred the tone of your post though.
When we talk about the validation of religious belief by internalised experience we enter an area where there is less and less useful data.
I can take you, a Christian friend of mine, someone from the local Spirtualist Church, a UFO abductee, a Jehovah's Witness, a Voodoo practitoner, assorted other animists, a Buddhist, a Scientologist...
The curious thing is that some of these experiences will be anathematic to others. Some will interpret others religious experience as possesion by evil spirits, or body thetans. Others will view them as forms of self-dellusion.
Now either all of these people are right, and they are tapping into something Universal and then wrapping it up in the referentials of their enculturation, or one of these people is right and the rest of us are doomed! doomed I tell you, or they are all wrong.
Autosuggestion seems the most probable answer to me.
If there is some Universal force they are experiencing it's strange that this leads to denial of others similar experiences as being authentic or from god. If only one 'way' assures us of a good outcome, then god is biased and is not fit for the 'job', as one's religious way is almost always a result of our place and family of birth and the idea of an unfair god damning people in ignorance is just offensive.
Thus the experiences being belief-mediated internal self-validation is the simplest explanation.
I am afraid that no matter how nice a Mormon you might be, your internal valdidations are of no more weight than a Papuan Anamist with a bone through his nose.
The Mormons actually have a pretty good record regarding science. Some doctrinal points are nonsensical on points of fact; the tribe of Israelites journying to the New World, which has as little archaelogical evidence as the 40-years-in-the-wilderness of the Jews.
But they actually build and run good Universities and have steadily distanced themselves from more extreme doctrines like polygamy, the second-class status of black people, and now it is hard to get a Mormon to discuss the doctrines which state the most exemplary Mormons become a 'god' in their own right and will dwell on a planet somewhere and have lots of spirit babies with many wives who will be sent to fill the bodies of intelligent being being born somewhere else in the Universe. (To those who've not studided comparative religions, I shit you not).
But having been born in a religious cult, I have severe misgivings about the use of shunning to punish church members who go astray. Although the Mormons are not as bad as some groups, the use of shunning is a crude control technique.
Effectively it means if you don't do what the local church says you should do, they will stop all of the people you know from that religion talking to you - even family. As many religions who use shunning encourage people to limit relationships with outsiders, this means if someone leaves such a high-control group they effectively have no friends, family or support circle to turn to. This keeps them in.
Of course, I know more about Mormonism as it is practised in the USA, where shunning is a problem and something a lot of ex-Mormons feel very bitter about. Have a look on line for the support groups if you don't believe me. The UK may be more liberal. It's curious, you're the second Mormon from the UK I have met oline in a few months.
Re:Religion stifles advancement in our species (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't expect my validations to hold more weight with you than your own validations, but its good that you can see that this is what it comes down to, and its nice for me to realise I'm not looking for anyone elses approval of the current state of my learning process.
As far as your theoretical group of friends, some of them may be lying and one of the liars may even be a mormon. Its had to know what experiences a person has had.
As far as an unfair God damming people, you are right it is damn offensive (pardon) and such a god deserves no respect or worship; which leads to the idea that his "devotees" and "worshippers" may not fully know him, if they think this is what god is like.
In my experience, belief in god often comes down to description of god.
On your point of extreme mormon doctrines and comparitive religion, I have never come across a book that accurately represented mormon belief that was not published by a mormon, and have come to respective conclusions about catholics etc.
[I was very happy when I came across a Catholic Priests life story where his mentor-priest said (roughly) "Look, nobody in their right mind believes for a minute that unbaptised babies will go to hell, but we can't explain it"]
You might find a copy of Spencer J Palmers "Comparitive Religion" (compares mormonism to other religions) interesting. I think it forms part of the BYU religion curriculum.
As for doctrine, I recall in the UK about 20 years ago a mormons might get excited about "sensational doctrine" which often was just gossip, and not checked against doctrinal sources. Mormons believe they can become gods about as much as the bible teaches, which is actually pretty definite. Blacks have never been second class citizens for mormons, and never "second class mormons" any more than non-Levite jews were second class jews. Mormons have not distanced themselves from polygamy as a doctrine, but do not practice it. (BTW did you know the first wife had to give permission to subsequent marriages?)
As for control and shunning, I think it is not a good way to behave and it is contrary to mormon doctrine. I have heard this claim regarding various religions and have no reason do doubt it; however attending a mormon ward council would show how difficult it is to get anyone to do anything at all; but certainly any form of control or compulsion is wrong, and severely condemmned in mormon scripture: http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/121/41 [lds.org]
No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
(See also v36,37)
So where this happens it is just a case of human failing, maybe even by church leaders, and very regrettable. I have to say that the reference I cited is one of the most often taught doctrines in priesthood meetings, you remind me why this needs to be the case.
I'm not even supposed to say "do it because I'm your dad and I say so" and I need reminding about that; thanks!
I think some of what you observe may stem from the effects of religion on culture in areas of high religious density, we have a mildly expressive phrase among friends that goes "Utah mormons..."; but in their defense actual Utah mormons I have met have been very caring and sensitive.
Finally can I congratulate us both for having participated in the most reasonable religious converasation that I believe has ever taken place on slashdot. I respect you as a sane reasoning human and would not be sorry if we met.
Sam